Mini 619 - Ramen Mafia (Over!)

[ClockworkRuse]

Vote Muerrto

for being seventh on the list.

[ClockworkRuse]

Vote: Oman

cause he nailed me as scum last time.

So you are scum this time and are afraid of him?

[ClockworkRuse]

I thought my scuminess would get us out of random voting faster and more people would be questioning >.< Is it just that the two who are giving me beef are the most experienced or the only ones really reading or are they scum trying to build off of anything scummy they see >.< I need some time to process the reactions a bit more >.<

Acting intentionally scummy is never good for the town. It veils the real scum while you attempt to "start discussion" by making the town focus on you.

Anyways, I believe that attacking someone over

dice

of all things is no reason to put Food up to four votes. If there isn't at least one scum on that wagon, I would be surprised. There is absolutely no reason to be putting that much pressure on someone for using dice. I chose someone because I like the number seven, so are you going to call me scum for that?

Now then, on to the hunting.


MLF -

aioqwe because he has two suspicions that were equal and put one on me without a strong justification that leaned towards me more that his other suspicion

In my opinion, this is a lousy reason for an FoS. Applying pressure to you when he has two suspects of equal scumminess isn't a cause for alarm. He just picked one of the two. Now then, that said, his reasons for finding you suspicious are flimsy.

Windkirby because he put a vote on me with a flimsy justification, and it just looks like a regular bandwagon.

I haven't seen any big leads yet, but vote: melikefood. Not crazy about dicing.

This may warrant an

FoS

.

WK, can I ask why you felt it was alright to attack MLF for the same weak reasons that others were already pressuring him for?

Charter- Attacking Darla because she unvoted is... rather weak as well. Unvoting until she can re-read and form her own opinions of what is happening isn't something that warrents a vote. I would like you to explain why you find this scummy.

[ClockworkRuse]

I disagree with "Getting us out of random by making yourself look scum is bad" I feel that its more "Getting us out of random REGARDLESS of the fact you look scummy".

I have to disagree with you here. Someone will act scummy sooner or later, doing it intentionally doesn't help the town.

[ClockworkRuse]

Sorry mod, I won't miss another 48 hour period.

Anyways, since I thought I had already done this but

Unvote

since we left the random voting stage. I'll be back with more thoughts later.

[ClockworkRuse]

Charter- Attacking Darla because she unvoted is... rather weak as well. Unvoting until she can re-read and form her own opinions of what is happening isn't something that warrents a vote. I would like you to explain why you find this scummy.

It was more of her saying that she's not going to be a conservative voter and then immediately unvotes. I dont think liam had any other serious votes, so there wasn't any danger in keeping it on either. At the time, it really jumped out at me. I reread the thread and I should have just seen what she posts next and go from there, but I don't really know why she felt the need to tell us how she would be voting either. I'm going to leave it there until she does give her thoughts.

I think when the arbitrary voting stage comes to a close, it's okay to
unvote. There really isn't anything scummy about taking your random
vote out of the picture while you re-read. I also believe that the fact that she told how how she is going to vote irrelevant. It doesn't matter much and it really doesn't warrant a vote in my eyes. A nice

FoS

for you.

WindKirby- Maybe 'attack' wasn't the right word, maybe 'add even more pressure' would have been better.

I would like it very much if someone could please post a nice detailed case against Kiwi. From there, I can begin my hunting.

Things I would like to point out;

Food saying Darla was the first to mention dice when Oman was is fishy. Not sure what it means exactly but weird no one got any suspiscion of Oman out of that, just food. Why did food omit him?

I don't think this is

too

suspicious. It may warrant paying a little more attention to Food, but it's not really enough to go off of for now. To me, it seems like an honest mistake.

Expect questions after sleep or I see a post with a case on Kiwi, which ever may come first.

[ClockworkRuse]

Plea does not equate to plea to emotion. Isn't a vote a call to lynch?

You might say it's just pressure, but it's the pressure of being lynched. No matter how you look at it, you're still pushing my lynch.

Ok...I may have unvoted you, but this was a horrible post.

You're going to make newbies scared to vote someone. A vote is NOT a call to lynch.

To add, a vote can be used to pressure someone. Scum start to slip when the votes start coming their way, in my opinion.

Now then, I find it funny that Food or someone of the sort said "Let's look at some of the players that haven't really been talking much" or something of the sort, and I get looked over. XD Nice.

I'm looking around to find some scummy actions, so sit tight and I'll have something for you sometime soon.

[ClockworkRuse]

Because its relevant to our relationship as people.

I am informed, about things that aren't alignments in the game. Where, in my banter with Muerrto, do I say anything about alignments that aren't my own.

More to the point, if we were scumbuddies, why the hell would we do this in thread?!

WIFOM. However, I don't believe they are acting anti-town right now. Perhaps a little non pro-town if anything. I don't think they are scum though, not yet at least.

Windkirby, reasons on sthar and Oman would be nice.

[ClockworkRuse]

Oman, did you find anything from your gambit or was it a flop?

WK, I'd still love to see where these vibes are coming from.

I'm still here but I'm feeling a bit under the weather, so I'll try to post more later when my head is clear. I'm just making sure I make the 48 hour time-limit right now.


I also think that these 'encoded messages' aren't as big of a deal as everyone is making them out to be. It seems like people are making a mountain of a mole hill with it. But that is just my opinion.

[ClockworkRuse]

Is this neccesary discussion?

No, it's not.

Please, stop talking about who he is going to investigate. WK can add to discussion

without

revealing who he suspects. I believe it is more beneficial for the town to trust him at this point. I do believe his claim. Actually, I think it's kind of funny. Oh how the tables have turned, WK.

Now then... I'll ask it again. XD

Oman- Do you think your gambit worked well? Did you find anything through it?

Second up on my plate:

I'm forgetful.
I'm aware we're not supposed to lynch him.

Are we sure there's a Doc?

Am I the only one who feels this is Food throwing out his line and trying to catch the doctor, if there is one?

[ClockworkRuse]

Mod: If a player returns after the prod or first strike, do they keep the strikes on them or do they go away? Just curious.

[ClockworkRuse]

Maybe the

third time

is the charm.

Oman- What, if anything, did you find through your gambit?

[ClockworkRuse]

Am I dead?

Good Job killing your nk immune (I dunno if I'm miller >.<) vig.

The thing I really don't like about any of this is that you said errm... five minutes earlier and then suddenly you jump out of the shadows and say 'OH CRAP, I'm being wagoned! I CLAIM!'

FoS

but no vote because I'm not risking that.

ARE YOU STILL NOT BUYING THE GET OFF YOUR LAZYASSWAGON?

Eager to lynch aren't we? Pushing for the lynch of the person who is just slightly scummier than you means you get a.... drum roll please.....

FoS

for trying to push suspicion away from yourself.

[ClockworkRuse]

Am I dead?

Good Job killing your nk immune (I dunno if I'm miller >.<) vig.

Quoting it twice, I know. But I think I see where your inspiration came from for this claim. Everyone please check Oman's title.

Requesting Vote Count.

[ClockworkRuse]

Here's my problem with picking Kiwi's target, just so you all know. Mafia could easily decide to NK to make it seem like he was lying and the the NK immune player out of the game. That would really hurt us. That's why it isn't worth following. It's too easily manipulated.

Expect more later.

[ClockworkRuse]

Here's my problem with picking Kiwi's target, just so you all know. Mafia could easily decide to NK to make it seem like he was lying and the the NK immune player out of the game. That would really hurt us. That's why it isn't worth following. It's too easily manipulated.

Expect more later.

Could you elaborate on this? You mean if we pick a target for Kiwi to off, and scum overlap the kill? This sounds like a big pro-town advantage, since scum would only do this if we chose a townie for Kiwi to kill. Moreover, in some games if two alignments target the same player for a nightkill, the flavor will say something like "Player XXX, shot and stabbed N1" to indicate he was double-killed.

That isn't a pro-town advantage at all. A scum directed kill for Kiwi means that a townie would die. Then, if the scum was smart, they would NK to make it seem like Kiwi has lied to us after all. The scum would then push for a lynch on Kiwi once again to get rid of the 'NK Immune Miller Vig' and a threat to them.

Also, I'd like to say that if Creamy Chicken is so popular, why would it be a miller?

[ClockworkRuse]

If you want someone else to direct a kill at, go ahead and direct one at me. I'm okay dying for the town if it gets us somewhere.

[ClockworkRuse]

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

[ClockworkRuse]

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

I'm lost here, how would the Vig's claim lose credibility if the mafia makes no kill?

The mafia would claim that he lied to us and is mafia. Get it? Basically, we can't know if he's conformable or not if the mafia no kill. D=

I already addressed this, but I'll do it again. How can mafia not using their nightkill be a bad thing?

What alternative do you suggest - that we just assume Kiwi is telling the truth and keep him around until end-game? Let him vig/SK unclaimed people who have confirmable roles?

The thing is that this entire situation is way to easy to manipulate. That's the problem I'm trying to point out. In my honest opinion we will eventually have to lynch Kiwi due to that possibility. Right now, we don't have to. Also, if we absolutely need to take someone out to make him prove what he is I'll offer myself up to it. Instead of taking on the the most scummy person in the game, someone like me can be taken out without much loss to the town and he can be confirmed.

But even with that, it's still really easily manipulated.

[ClockworkRuse]

Vote Charter.

Considering the recent claims, Charter might be our best bet. I'll be posting my reasoning after a very brief re-read to collect my thoughts.

[ClockworkRuse]

I currently support a choice between Liam, Oman, and no-kill for you, but if you reason well enough, I could probably accept any kill but

Clockwork

.

Bolded = mine. Huh? Did I miss something? Did you mean WK (claimed doc)?


Charter, I assume you don't have a claim that is going to reverse the wagon (else you would have done so), but you might as well claim anyway.


If Kiwi is going to make his own decision (which seems to be the guaranteed case), I suggest he keep it to himself, or he says it with enough time left in the day for said NKee to claim.

Can I ask why you don't like me for the kill tonight?

And WK didn't claim Doc. He claimed Cop.

[ClockworkRuse]

How many claims can we get in one day? D=

Unvote.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'd like it if we could just use the term night kill for Kiwi from now on. =D Thank you very much. That said...

Wow. That's all I can really say about Oman. I would also like to say, why is the doctor still alive? If I was mafia, that is exactly who I would go after first. I'm going to have to re-read on who claimed doc, but I find that very odd that mafia would leave a claimed doctor alive.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'd like it if we could just use the term night kill for Kiwi from now on. =D Thank you very much. That said...

Wow. That's all I can really say about Oman. I would also like to say, why is the doctor still alive? If I was mafia, that is exactly who I would go after first. I'm going to have to re-read on who claimed doc, but I find that very odd that mafia would leave a claimed doctor alive.

I'm the doctor. Glad to know what you would do if you were mafia. How exactly does that help us and not serve for a whole mess of pointless WIFOM discussion? Also, thanks for bringing attention to me, and ruin my chances of flying under the radar tonight.

I'm just curious about all of this. First, your claim saved you from a lynch yesterday and there is no way of knowing if you really are the doc or not. And I don't understand why the mafia would kill Oman instead of going after one of the claimed power roles. It didn't seem like there was any immediate danger from Oman, in my opinion, so why leave both the cop or the doctor alive?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

[ClockworkRuse]

I don't know, I'm assuming from the information placed before me. Until Kiwi says what he did last night, I am going to assume that the mafia killed Oman.

There is also the possibility that they went after the cop and the doctor protected. But until Kiwi says anything I'm still wondering why doc or cop are alive.

[ClockworkRuse]

Since I've grown bored of waiting for Kiwi...

vote clockworkruse

I don't know how you can slip knowing the thinking of scum and expect to get away with it.

mod, is Kiwi about to be modkilled, or are we getting our panties in a bunch for no reason?

So instead of waiting for the information that the town needs to know right now, you'd rather get straight into lynching?

I didn't slip at all, it definitely made you worried about something. That is exactly what I was hoping for. Why are you so worried about the possibility I offered if you really are the doctor?

I think it should be obvious that scum would attempt to hit the doctor, then the cop. That gets rid of two major threats to scum and makes it a heck of a lot harder for us. But apparently they didn't do that last night, either because someone false claimed or they were planning on someone looking around and saying what the hell...?

And I'm going to assume that the mafia killed Oman, until Kiwi speaks up. It doesn't make sense for Mafia to not kill but there is the possibility that the doctor saved someone last night. Depending on Kiwi's response, we might have a cleared townie.

[ClockworkRuse]

Since I've grown bored of waiting for Kiwi...

vote clockworkruse

I don't know how you can slip knowing the thinking of scum and expect to get away with it.

mod, is Kiwi about to be modkilled, or are we getting our panties in a bunch for no reason?

So instead of waiting for the information that the town needs to know right now, you'd rather get straight into lynching?

Yes, my one vote and practically no argument against you is going to lynch you. Where did I say I wanted to lynch you again? I want you to actually explain all your speculating and insider knowledge. I don't need to wait for Kiwi to come to try and figure out why you're so fast to propose all these theories (terrible ones at that, I can explain if anyone wants me to).

I didn't slip at all, it definitely made you worried about something. That is exactly what I was hoping for. Why are you so worried about the possibility I offered if you really are the doctor?

You DID slip, and now you're trying to play it off like it was some plan of yours. Just let the rest of us know when you're done with your speculating and want to try and find some scum, ok?

I have no insider knowledge, and to me a vote is a call to lynch. It can be used to place pressure but you

never

asked anything when you placed your vote. So in my eyes, that was a call to lynch me.

I did not slip, even if you don't want to believe, and these

terrible theories

have got you up in arms about something. So do please explain your reasons why these are terrible theories. Because to me, it looks like you are starting to get worried about something.

[ClockworkRuse]

Clock: A vote isn't a call to lynch. Also, you seem upset he voted you. Why?

I'm not upset that he's voted for me, I'm just suspicious because to me it seems like he's panicking.

To me, his vote was a call to a lynch or at least a wagon;

Since I've grown bored of waiting for Kiwi...

vote clockworkruse

I don't know how you can slip knowing the thinking of scum and expect to get away with it.

mod, is Kiwi about to be modkilled, or are we getting our panties in a bunch for no reason?

If he was attempting to put pressure on me, he would ask questions and attempt to catch me in a lie. Instead he simply says 'Oi! You slipped!' and leaves it at that. There isn't an call for me to explain myself, no questions for me to answer. To me, it doesn't feel like he is trying to pressure me. It feels more like an OMGUS for finding him suspicious.

[ClockworkRuse]

CWR, you've made four posts, and in the first three you put forth no fewer than three different theories (one is kind of a repeat, so I'd assume that's the one you want the rest of the town to believe).

Wow. That's all I can really say about Oman. I would also like to say, why is the doctor still alive? If I was mafia, that is exactly who I would go after first.

There is also the possibility that they went after the cop and the doctor protected.

I think it should be obvious that scum would attempt to hit the doctor, then the cop.

It doesn't make sense for Mafia to not kill but there is the possibility that the doctor saved someone last night.

I didn't explicitly ask you any questions, it was implied that I wanted you to explain your speculating, and how your speculating benefits the town in any way. Since you need to be spoon fed, Why are you speculating the night actions before Kiwi speaks up? and How does speculating last night's actions benefit the town?

You're right though, I am worrying that we will waste our time with your speculating and end today with the same debacle as yesterday.

Preview - Haha, So I OMGUS voted you after you drop a major scumtell? Yes, OMGUS is the proper term for that type of vote.

It benefits the town because your claim saved you yesterday but in my experience, a claimed doctor dies the day they claim. It makes no sense that you would still be alive, in my opinion.

I don't think I dropped a major scum tell and I think you are panicking because even though you claimed doctor someone is suspicious of you. And I want to wait for Kiwi to come back and tell us what he did before I move on.

[ClockworkRuse]

Second up

on my plate

: (I'm emphasising this because I think it's funny, because he's saying plate and he's quoting me FOOD, that's funny.)

I'm forgetful.
I'm aware we're not supposed to lynch him.

Are we sure there's a Doc?

Am I the only one who feels this is Food throwing out his line and trying to catch the doctor, if there is one?

I read over this thinking that CR might be the doc, but then Charter claimed doc, so I'm wondering if it means anything.

Also, what about WindKirby's investigation?
Are we gonna save it for later or something?

It means nothing at all. I am not the doctor.

Muerrto; I already did say that I didn't slip up. In my eyes, a claimed power role would assume that their shelf-life [ha, get it?] is going to be cut short because the mafia

wants

to hit our power roles. So why when I bring that up does charter start to panic like he was?

It looks like we are going to be losing Kiwi. D- Which absolutely sucks.

Mod: Any chance of Kiwi being replaced?

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm here, and if you want to look into my actions go right ahead. I've got nothing to hide.

[ClockworkRuse]

Hah, just looked through CWR's posts yesterday, and he was scheming mafia strategies yesterday as well. I'd say this was the most blatent,

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

He also had a few more posts giving the mafia ideas on what to do during the night. CWR, why do you spend so much time trying to figure out what the scum will do/give them ideas?

I don't buy Muerrto's claim, but his wagon has grown far too quickly. I'd say give WK another night and see if we get a different result. Perhaps he is insane/paranoid. I'm convinced CWR needs to go today before he gives the scum more ideas...

I'm not giving scum ideas at all, it's you who seems to think that. And for suggesting simple logic, I'm giving scum ideas? I really wish I was as naive as you. Something is strange about none of the power-roles being hit, and I'm sticking to that. The situation yesterday was

way

too easy for mafia to control and I was trying to warn the town with that.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me. In fact, BB why were you defending me at all? I'm a big boy, I can deal with this poor accusations myself.

All I did yesterday was warn the town that the situation was way too easy to manipulate and that we should not discuss who the so-called Vig was going to kill. I didn't save the town at all with that.

So, BB, for going above and beyond to buddy up to me,

FOS.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we

need

to know.

As for the role claim issue; I'd like to quote sthar8 for the truth;

I am strongly opposed to a massclaim.

Any setup info we gain will be limited to pro-town roles, so we won't be able to outguess the mod's balancing strategy effectively. There is a high probability that we have more roles whose effectiveness is limited after a massclaim. In addition, I find it very unlikely that any framers or millers on the town side know that they are framers or millers, so a massclaim doesn't really help us with that situation either. In fact, if we have a pro-town RB or similar who targeted Muerrto, I'd rather that player sit on their thumbs and continue play with the knowledge that they mightbe a framer, rather than potentially outing themselves to the scum.

And how does lynching someone without an investigation result even make sense? It's already been noted that until we have more info on our cop sanity, or can confirm Muerrto's role, our cop is less powerful than he might otherwise be. I doubt that we will be in LYLO tomorrow, so I'd rather have a decreased doubt in our cop, or at the very least be sure that Muerrto isn't scum getting away after being investigated guilty.

Now, Day 3 I might be willing to massclaim, but I don't think we're ready yet.

As for tomorrow's lynch, we don't need to decide today, but it can't hurt to get some input from whoever is going to die tonight. If we spend today discussing tomorrow's lynch, we will be that much closer to sure when it's time to hammer tomorrow.

[[Excuse the lack of italics, that was just a simple copy and paste from the Topic Review.]]

This is a great post.

The town shouldn't be mass-claiming yet at all, it will only hinder our decisions today. Keep in mind that we will have to deal with false claims and wade through even more lies to when we do mass claim, so lets solve one problem at a time.

We

need

to know the sanity of our cop. If he's insane, then he's still a powerful weapon. But if he turns out to be paranoid then he's just a dull butter knife, hardly useful to us. Can someone please explain how it's

not

a good idea for us to find the sanity of our cop?

Vote: Muerrto

[ClockworkRuse]

I don't think massclaiming is going to out anything else, however I don't think it's going to reveal anything but vanilla townies. On the off chance that we do have more town power, I say we don't mass claim yet.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we need to know.

I get the feeling that CWR knows that Muerrto is town, and is misleadingly trying to convince us to lynch him based solely on WK's result. I've already explained. Lynching Muerrto will only narrow down WK's sanity to sane/insane or paranoid. Until you get a different result there's no way to figure out if he's useful or not. I also don't like his putting forth all these different theories on what could have happened during the night. Other than Muerrto's flimsy claim, and WK's result, I don't see anything else on him. I'm also fairly suspect of WK's claim, I have a hard time believing that we both have a sane cop, and that he is the sane cop.

Then you'd better not trust your feelings, because they are dead wrong.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me.

This makes no sense. Strh8 who said the only thing you saved us from was a pro-town strategy. Clarify?[/quote]

I read the wrong name for that post, yes. But I agree that I didn't save the town from anything and that BB should no be using Oman's 'Oh my, he's right!' opinion to save us.

In my opinion, there have only been two people who have looked at what I said yesterday and said 'Wow, that sucked.' Either these two people are very pro-town and pointing out some flaws in my thinking [which I can admit, there are some] or are scum and are trying to discredit me for trying to warn the town of how bad it could have been for us to let the town pick Kiwi's night kill.

Now then, as for the comments toward the lynch of Muerrto. I am still in favor of it. We have to lynch someone today and I still fail to see how lynching Muerrto is a bad play if it can give us information about our cop. A day in advance.

[ClockworkRuse]

I would love it if you didn't put words in my mouth. First of all, I never said that Charter should be our lynch today. EVER. In fact, I

know

that I said I wouldn't be comfortable to lynch a claimed doctor at all. I found it incredibly odd that roles that

even you

admit would be the scums first targets weren't hit last night.

If it's as you say and scum didn't kill the power roles to bring about suspicion then it definitely looks like I fell into that trap. But I'll be damned if he false claimed when, even as you admit, the town seems overpowered. I'm not going to try to outguess the mod saying 'Our cop must be hindered by something!' I am going to be suspicious of these claims.

I am not going to believe a claim until I see proof that claim is real. And unfortunately, our doctor can't prove that in a way that can put the town's doubt at ease.

Our claimed cop has expressed a bit of concern about his own sanity. About a quarter of the players in the game have jumped on the guilty result with complete tunnel-vision.

I agree that I was pretty hasty to just jump into that vote. I certainly need to differentiate the differences between MS and EM. On EM, it would have been a sound strategy to lynch a guilty result. Here, the opposite seems to be true. I was at fault with that line of thinking, more information would be nice. I have a question, but I'll save it for tomorrow's result.

Unvote

[ClockworkRuse]

The fact that you spent about 6 posts questioning why scum didn't kill the claimed doctor implies that you think it's because he's lying. Otherwise there is no pro-town reason to discuss it. I think your actions fit the MO of scum who chose not to kill the doc for WIFOM's sake - that is, you kept on bringing up how weird it was in hopes that everyone else would go "hey.. that is weird! lynch the doc!"


In theme games on MS, there's always a little doubt about cop results. That's the point of theme games - there's always a curveball waiting around the corner. That said, cop results are reliable more often than not. It's the way the situation played out as a whole that sits very poorly with me.



You didn't explain your delayed timing on the Muerrto vote. Your first 5 or 6 posts after the guilty result were spent talking about the doc. Then you make a lengthy post about how obvious it was that Muerrto is the right choice.

Moreover, you seem to contradict yourself. Your reason for voting Muerrto is to determine cop sanity. Yet you imply that on EM, you don't question guilty results - which in turn replies that your Muerrto vote is because you assumed he was definitely scum. If you don't see the contradiction here, I'll try harder to explain.

On EM, it's not a big deal if you mislynch to figure out the sanity of a cop unless that person is an uncounter-claimed power role. The same can be true for finding a false claimed scum. Here, I mistakenly applied that logic and it simply doesn't work.

To be quite honest, I wasn't worried about the Muerrto issue right away. I was still looking at the power roles still alive and saying 'What's all this then?'

And as I said before, I never once said 'Let's lynch the doctor!' I said there is something odd here. I was hoping that people would just keep a watchful eye on the doctor to be safe. To be very honest, if anyone had voted for charter because I said I was suspicious of him, I would have attacked that person for voting for the doctor.

I do not want anyone to vote for charter, but I do want people to watch him a little more carefully. I would assume that the townie would watch

every

claimed power role a little more carefully.

[ClockworkRuse]

Very, very nice indeed.

Now we know that WK is sane or paranoid. I am in favor of a mass claim today as well.

[ClockworkRuse]

Well, I want to hear everyone's opinion on a mass claim at this point in time.

[ClockworkRuse]

I don't think that scum got a fake claim in their PM, that's really assuming a lot and out-guessing the mod in a major way.

My guess is that Muerrto was assuming that the 'vanilla' townspeople got a Chicken Flavor as everything tastes like chicken.

[ClockworkRuse]

WK was apparently role-blocked, please read his post.

Yes, in fact I'm rather sure that Scum haven't seen any roles but their own which is why I'm proposing we claim today.

WK should pick who claims first and we can go pop-corn from there.

[ClockworkRuse]

Of course I have objections and frankly I'm shocked that no one else has any.

[quoute="Strife220"]
For face value, Sthar8's logic is pretty solid.

That's all I've got to say about that.
[/quote]

First,
That doesn't change anything and frankly, since you do use good logic I'm wondering why you used that as an defense against my accusation of you outguessing the mod.


Second,
I'm going to be re-reading Strife220 and sthar8 after claims go through or while, apparently it's possible missed some buddy-buddy play.

Third,
Explain why you get to make the list? What makes you clear, to begin with? I'd prefer either WK create a list or we make on randomly with dice. I

do not like[/i] putting that choice in the hands of possible scum.

[ClockworkRuse]

Well, I will say for emphasis that I

do not like giving that power to an unconformable player.

But whatever.

I am Plain, Dry Ramen which is the actual vanilla of the game.

[ClockworkRuse]

EBWOP:

I am Plain, Dry Ramen which is the actual vanilla

flavor

of the game.

Are you implying that you know there's only 1 vanilla in the game?

^ Fixed.

No, that's how I know that the 'they have roles to claim with sent to them' is unlikely.

Plain, Dry Ramen is the actual vanilla flavor of the game. I'm supposing there are more then one vanilla as it wouldn't make much sense to me to have one vanilla, but at the same time you never know.

[ClockworkRuse]

Fair enough. BB's turn.

Actually, since people seem to want to give me some choice in the order, could we have food go before sthar? The list would then look like

CWR (plain, dry, vanilla)
BB
Darla
Food
sthar8
strife

I just think sthar is less likely to be scum so he should go further down on the list.

Why is sthar less likely to be scum?

[ClockworkRuse]

CWR, I don't understand why you would have a problem with the order, I assume it was because you were going first?

I guess I'll just wait for the rest of the massclaim before posting my thoughts.

Not at all in fact, I was all for claiming today and I'm fine with claiming.

I actually started thinking that I should have faked the vanilla flavor and try to catch scum copying it.

I have a problem with the order because I am suspicious of everyone who isn't cleared. And someone who isn't cleared made it. I don't feel comfortable giving possible scum

any

chance to manipulate the town. Do you?

My question still stands for WK, why is sthar more likely to be town the rest of us?

[ClockworkRuse]

We could have done a number of things.

To be truly random, we could have dice decide the order of the claims. To be honest, we still can and I would prefer it be done.

I see what you mean as to WK being not being clear, but with the information given it's more likely than not in my opinion.

[ClockworkRuse]

Lying about your role is a great way to get yourself lynched. Very dangerous unless the plan is near bullet-proof and town will understand.

Hence why I didn't do it.

I was thinking that the next time this situation arises that I could try to add the rule that if you are going to CC to have to counter claimer say 'I counter-claim, repost your flavor/role' without adding what the real flavor is or anything of the sort.

Thinking about it later, it's a flawed and easy for scum to control which is never good.

[ClockworkRuse]

Clockwork:

For face value, Sthar8's logic is pretty solid.

That's all I've got to say about that.

This was my way of saying "I told you so, and you should have gone with the logic" to strife. This should have been obvious since his next line from that post basically says "but I think we should ignore the logic here and go with gut."
Second, strife was the one speculating about fake claims, and trying to outguess the mod. In fact, I've raised that as a point against him already, so I think you can see what my stance is on the subject. I have not defended against any accusations from you, mostly because you haven't made any against me. In fact, the reason you might see buddying between strife and I is that you've

repeatedly misattributed my statements to him throughout this game

. I wonder if you hope to gain some kind of advantage from this, or if you need to be reading a little more closely, as the last time I consistently agreed with strife was on Day 1, and even that was not across the board (for example, our opinions on Oman were markedly different).

I don't understand what possible advantage I could have from mistaking your names. Most of the time, it's just a misread and me failing to check my posts. If you'll notice, I often fix that mistake when I make.

I'll force myself to make sure that I don't mix the two of you up from now on.

Third, I

proposed

a list, then asked for discussion on it. If anyone had proposed any changes, we could have agreed on them, but it seems everyone liked my first draft. Your suggestion that scum would be able to manipulate the list to some form of advantage is insulting to the town, since scum are a small minority at this point. I'd rather assume that at least

some

of the pro-town players have brains

somewhere

inside their skulls. If the scum are as good and the town are as stupid as you're trying to make them out to be, then we've already lost this game.

I don't like this post at all. Explain to me how it isn't to the benefit of the town to all assume that the scum are going to try to manipulate us and work in ways that it isn't possible to do that.

[quote="sthar8"
I am not cleared, and have never claimed to be cleared. In fact, as of this post we have only two cleared players: Oman and Liam. Being confirmed is not a prerequisite for acceptance of any argument or claim. The standard we use is logical validity and soundness or cogency, because even a confirmed pro-town player can propose arguments with horrible, fatal flaws, as I believe to be the case with strife's thoughts yesterday.[/quote]

Completely agreed, hence why my argument about you picking the list was that you weren't cleared.

My intent behind the list was to take into account soft-claims and scumminess to create an order that was dangerous for false claims. This is

impossible

with dice, and I've stated repeatedly that we should try to get as much benefit from the massclaim as possible.

For example, strife soft-claimed first. This suggests to me that he has a roleclaim ready, since he could have been forced to claim right away because of his risky (and poorly reasoned) move. If he's scum, having him claim last maximizes the chances that his claim of choice will be taken already, forcing him to counter, or lose the benefit of any breadcrumbing he's done and make up a new claim on the spot. If he counters, we can test the powers or lynch the scummiest one, and if he makes up a new claim it will not be as thought out as his original, which leaves more room for scummy errors.

Alright, I like this reasoning. I just don't like how the entire town didn't take much time to question anything about the list. I

hate

leaving any possibility of manipulation.

Finally, what you're saying with your claim is that you could have countered Muerrto on flavor and chose not to? That's two people who just chose to let Muerrto off the hook with a claim they knew was false (points to BB for stating strong suspicions and lynch preference, even after he had unvoted, though).

If you'll read back, you'll notice that I didn't even pay much attention to the claim at all as I was still wondering why the doctor was still alive, if you recall. I admit that I should have counter claimed that role however, it's unlikely that I'm the only Vanilla Townie here. So I'm not the only one who made the mistake.

Your play over the course of the last two days has served only the goal of attempting to confuse and scare the town. In addition you dropped your Muerrto vote as soon as it looked like others might be unwilling to lynch him, without giving any reasoning other than "if you guys don't want to lynch him, I won't vote for him." I'm happy with you at the top of my scumlist.

Vote: ClockworkRuse

Note that I do not advocate lynching until after the claims have been completed an analyzed fully.

I don't feel that this vote isn't justified. You have some good points about me and I've been having some really bad play here. But tell me this, if my claim stands to be true are you going to leave your vote on me?

And for the record, I didn't just say 'If you guys don't want to lynch him..." I did unvote because I saw your reasoning and weighed it against my own. Guess who's made more sense when I sat there and thought about it?

[ClockworkRuse]

Sthar8: You say you placed me last because I was the first to soft-claim. However, BB soft-claimed second and Food soft-claim third. Why did you put BB second on the list to claim?



I don't think CWR is claiming a role that should have known Muerrto's claim was a lie. I think he's just doing a poor job of saying that he's vanilla... or something.
WR? I and apparently others are still confused about this:

I am Plain, Dry Ramen which is the actual vanilla flavor of the game.

Saying dry is the Actual vanilla flavor implies that Chicken cannot possibly be another vanilla role. Please clarify, and tell us what your own role led you to think about Muerrto's claim.

Plain, Dry Ramen is the Vanilla Townie role of the game, not Chicken. [As BB just showed you.]

I should have counter-claimed him but as you'll notice I didn't. Please see the responses to that in the above post.

[ClockworkRuse]

BB: Thank you. It's kind of funny that you jailed me, for reasons that I will explain when I claim. I'm a he, by the way

CWR: I don't know what advantage that could have, either. Besides claiming that we are buddying up by misattributing a consistent statement by me to him, and using that to show that we are in agreement.

We

should

assume that the scum are trying to trip us up, but it seems like you are saying that we shouldn't even

try

to reach majority consensus on any point because one or two players

might

be trying to convince us to do something that is anti-town. I think that if we all look for scummy actions, we can figure out which courses are anti-town. If we find someone trying to push something like that, we lynch them and solve all our problems.

Again, I didn't

pick

the list, I

proposed

it. Important distinction. If you don't like how little the town discussed the list, you should have said "We should discuss this list further," not "Guys he's not confirmed don't listen to anything he says!" One of those is pro-town.

Regarding your unvote, you weighed my arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch against your arguments

for

Muerrto's lynch, and decided to unvote?

And as for my vote, we have a lot of day left and quite a few more claims to see.

Darla: Your turn.

Another case of mistaken identity. God it's been a long day. D:

IIRC, you were pushing for Muerrto's lynch and... Strife and Charter we're attacking me over the same thing.

[ClockworkRuse]

Ugh... I just deleted the lengthy post I just wrote.


Very interested to hear Sthar8 roleclaim. If BB is telling the truth, it's highly likely that there was no kill last night because Sthar8 was in jail. More on this after roleclaims.

@BB: Sorry if I missed it, but you didn't seem to explain why you didn't counterclaim Muerrto. Also, you don't seem to be suspicious of Sthar8 even though you jailed him and no kill went off. If you're town, doesn't the most likely situation put him as scum?


@CWR: I'll explain why I liked Sthar8's ordering after claims are done.




On a similar note:

Plain, Dry Ramen is

the

Vanilla Townie role of the game, not Chicken.

Bolded to highlight the confusing part. You don't seem to get it CWR. Saying you're THE vanilla role implies that nobody else can possibly be vanilla.



Sthar8 said it, but I'll repeat.

Darla

, you're up on claim. Bolded out of impatience.

And I've explained that before.

I was saying that

Chicken

is not the vanilla role and that PDR is. [It's a bit easier to call it that.]

I would assume that I'm not the only PDR, honestly.

[ClockworkRuse]

So your claim is mason?

[ClockworkRuse]

Right well I can confirm Clock's claim now that Plain Dry Ramen is indeed the vanilla flavor.

I have nothing to report thusly.

I am a tad confused on BB's role but I've never seen the Jailkeep role, will wiki it now

next?

I'm confused. I don't see a claim here

She's claiming vanilla, I believe.

[ClockworkRuse]

... Darla's claiming to be plain dry raman, the same as CWR?


I think BB and Darla are the last two scum.

I can test her claim if you want. There is a sentence in my Role PM I've been thinking of using to test claims like this with.

@Darla, according to your pm; who/what doesn't like you, apparently?

[ClockworkRuse]

Excellent. Food, was your puzzle based on your intent to claim cryptographically, or does it have some other significance to your role?

Time for my claim:

I am Shrimp Ramen

I am a Bulletproof Townie. The flavor justification is that I can breathe underwater, so every night I go to my secret undersea hiding place, where I cannot be shot at or raped.

Thus, I am the person who needed BB's protection

least

, since I was already safe. I dropped several power role tells on Day 1 in order to attract nightkills, but all the roles I breadcrumbed were forced to claim immediately after I had done so. This also explains why I was so strongly against the claim, as my role is now useless. I was hoping that after scum ran down the list of claimed power, they would target strongly pro-town players, which I have attempted to be to the best of my ability.

This also may explain why there were no kills last night: at least 1/3 of the town couldn't be nk'd

I'm slightly less suspicious of CWR with a second vanilla having the same flavor, but it doesn't warrant the removal of my vote, yet. I'm more suspicious of BB than I was, partly because we know scum has a RB.

CWR: I'm not sure the test will prove anything.

Darla: Why didn't you counter-claim Muerrto?

strife and Food: are you explicitly confirmed?

If anything, it'll prove her innocence to me.

[ClockworkRuse]

CWR: It could prove her innocence, but I'm not sure that an incorrect result will prove her guilt. Sorry, I should have been clearer.

It isn't a hard question to answer and if she gets it wrong, it won't necessarily mean that she's guilty.

However, to me it would mean that we should keep a closer eye on her.

[ClockworkRuse]

No. I don't know any other people who are 100% innocent.

Do either you or Strife have recruiting abilities or is it just the two of you?

And have you have the chance to talk together yet or was there some requirement for it?

[ClockworkRuse]

Vote: Darla

I figured that you would use that as you last resort defense. If you really did delete your pm, then I suggest that you always keep your Role PM.

The answer to the question really isn't that important anymore but if anyone wants to ask me to answer it go ahead.

Charter, has my claim made you feel that I'm more town? I understand that you still suspect me, and to be honest, I expect it and am VERY glad that you still do. That is a plus in my book for you being pro town as you should always suspect people regardless of claim, but is it more suspicion, less, or the same?

BB, I don't like any post that says 'I think XXXX is town.' To me, it's buddying and honestly, I find your claim a little unbelievable. Here's why;
First, everyone look at Kiwi's role.

Creamy Chicken.

I don't think the mod would use the role name Chicken twice in this game. Notice how even the masons had different roles. In fact, after this massclaim I am almost absolutely certain that each player had a different role in this game.

Second, the method doesn't make much sense at all. When the method is compared to everyone else, Creamy Chicken 'creamed people', Shrimp can hide underwater, Oriental Ramen is highly intelligent. You get eaten. I would like everyone to make note the difference between the flavors here.

We are playing as these 'Ramen' noodles. However, each noodle is presented as if we are that bunch of noodles and that we are trained or have special abilities. Apparently people eat you, which doesn't fit into the flavoring style at all.


As for why we have individual roles,everyone read your role PMs. It doesn't seem like it gives the possibility of anyone else having the same role, in my opinion. The sentence that BBM doesn't like me makes me think that. [This is also the answer to that question before.]


So in conclusion, I'm in favor of a Darla and BB scum team.

[ClockworkRuse]

@CWR: I obviously agree with the Darla BB scum-team, but I don't udnerstand your first point. Kiwi's role is Creamy Chicken, so BB can't be plain chicken? Food is Spicy Chicken. Just because they have the same word doesn't mean they're the same role.

Food is Spicy Chicken? Then excuse that point, as it is obviously wrong.

However, do you agree that the flavor of his claim seems to be off?

[ClockworkRuse]

BB is chicken and is therefore the jailkeeper? Or that others 'use' their ramen powers while BB gets eaten himself?
It's certainly weird, but I don't think it should be used as a major strike against him. It's pretty hard for a mod to pick completely logical names for all their roles, and some games I've been in the connection between flavor and ability have been essentially nil. Food and I learned to communicate using our 'spicy powers.'

I think the much bigger issue here is the convenience of his claim (especially jailing sthar8), his lack of counter-claiming Muerrto, and the bumbling soft-claim that in no way matched 'jailkeeper.' He fits a scum profile very well.

I'm not saying that it's a major strike, but it seems like FlameAxe has been pretty consistent that we actually use our powers and that our role name is just to add a little bit of flavoring. To me, it just doesn't add up.

And obviously, I agree with you that the timing and way that he claimed is strange.


And I've been wondering why it would have been dangerous to false-claim my name but not my role, to try to catch scum copying me. Would I be lynched if I called that person out? To me, it seems like a pretty pro-town reason to lie.

[ClockworkRuse]

@strife, Flameaxe is V/LA for a while so I don't know when we're going to get a votecount or end of the day.

Are mine and Sthar8's names/avatars really That similar?


Your logic on who is scum depending on what Darla flips is backwards. If Darla flips town, that means CWR is either definitely town, or has a copy of the plain, dry ramen role-PM

No, I have no idea why people keep doing that. It is kind of funny though.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm here and I agree that BB should attempt to jail WK.

[ClockworkRuse]

BB: I don't care who you protect if Darla is innocent, so long as it is not WK or charter. I would request the block on me in order to force scum to WIFOM with a no-kill or prove that I do not send in mafia kills, but there are too many variables for that evidence to mean anything. Besides, having three unkillable townies instead of two, especially if the third one is possibly a surprise with the potential to block the kill on either the sender or receiver's side, is too advantageous to give up.

Whoa. Does no one else think this is incredibly suspicious? First, Sthar says if he is jailed it would force the scum to WIFOM. To me, it sounds like he's preparing a WIFOM defense for if he is jailed and can't kill anyone.

I don't like this post.

[ClockworkRuse]

Vote: BB

Obviously you didn't Jail WK as you were told and agreed to and with this kill you've done everything in your power to destroy any proof of your innocence.

I also fail to see why Charter didn't protect WK either way but for the time being BB is the better lynch in my mind.

[ClockworkRuse]

I protected CWR last night, I thought the plan was I could protect whoever I wanted? I figured that he was the least likely to be scum and also pretty likely for a NK after outing Darla like that.

vote BB
That's lynch-1!

Aw, thank you. But

Unvote

I would like to hear whatever he has to say before he swings. But he is the most probable scum at the moment.

I am going to look back for a little bit though, I just thought of something that seems a little off to me.

[ClockworkRuse]

I think I'm just going to hammer. There isn't any real reason not to at this point.

Vote BB

[ClockworkRuse]

I can agree with that too but as it stands I don't want to count anyone out.

I do agree that of the remaining claims, his does stand out a bit. However, I'm still wondering about charter too. I don't really have the time to re-read right now. Just oicing my opinion for the moment.

[ClockworkRuse]

Forcing a no-lynch today would have little to no effect. That said, I am not willing to hammer sthar.

First of all, I do not need any help with my vote. I'm not going to let anyone manipulate my vote like that.

Second of all, the 'doctor has two strikes' argument has annoyed me all game. I wouldn't risk the chances of charter becoming active and posting consistently and I fail to see how not killing the doctor anyways wouldn't have helped the scum. UNLESS they really were going for a 'omgz, the doctor is alive" argument.

Third, Charter, I brought up that argument day two if you remember. I was wondering why you were still alive? I have to admit that I'm still wondering it but I'm not convinced enough to vote you.

I'm going to have to re-read soon when I have some more time.

[ClockworkRuse]

Well thank you.

sthar, you seem to be under-estimating the intelligence of the scum which I think is a bad play. We should always assume that the scum are going to make it harder for the town, right?

Strife, why are you convinced it's sthar?

[ClockworkRuse]

Well thank you.

sthar, you seem to be under-estimating the intelligence of the scum which I think is a bad play. We should always assume that the scum are going to make it harder for the town, right?

Strife, why are you convinced it's sthar?

I think I posted my reasoning fairly well already. Bad claim, no kill N2 (when BB jailed him), process of elimination, no play inconsistent with being scum, process of elimination, etc etc

I can see your points with this, I really can... I'm still just thinking everything over.

[ClockworkRuse]

My daily post.

Please say something more then "My daily post."

Try to find something to support your case against sthar. The more active lurking you do, the more reason I have to be suspicious of you.

[ClockworkRuse]

First of all, I do not need any help with my vote. I'm not going to let anyone manipulate my vote like that.

I just thought from this you didn't want a gigantic battle between me and sthar8. I'll get on why sthar8 is scum for you.

What I meant by that is that sthar said "Let me know if you need any help with your vote" and I didn't like that.

You should still be making a case because you will obviously interrupt things differently then me and you might see something I missed.

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm undecided. I can see the cases of both sides as being plausible.

[ClockworkRuse]

Daily post. No time, will post thoughts later tonight.

[ClockworkRuse]

Here. I will have more time to post tomorrow. Another game took my time tonight with a re-read, so I will concentrate on here tomorrow.

[ClockworkRuse]

Okay, not much time at the moment. So just a few points that I'm going to point out.

-Strife is more likely than not Town. It wouldn't make much sense to me for him to be a Scum Mason/Roleblocker mixed into one. That's a pretty over-powered role. Plus, why would they kill their mason partner if they could use their partner's vote?

-Sthar, you say that you don't understand why scum wouldn't have killed me. It is exactly why you say, I did question the doctor claim. Why, if I was still suspicious of it, would the scum kill me? That doesn't make much sense at all.

-I don't see how Charter claiming Doctor would have been a smart idea for a role-blocker to do. The mafia would have been losing more than the town, in my opinion, with a God Father and a Goon left. It seems like an unnecessary risk.

-The interaction between Darla and Sthar is noted.

[ClockworkRuse]

-Sthar, you say that you don't understand why scum wouldn't have killed me. It is exactly why you say, I did question the doctor claim. Why, if I was still suspicious of it, would the scum kill me? That doesn't make much sense at all.

Ummm, what? Charter might kill anyone who was suspicious of his claim in order to make the final lynch easier by decreasing suspicion on himself. The real question is, why would charter leave you alive knowing you had been suspicious of his claim? I think maybe he forgot that you had been suspicious of the surviving doc thing (supported by his posts, in which he accuses me of being the first to bring it up) or that he felt it wouldn't matter since I have been so suspicious of you that you would be inclined to vote me.

Wrong. If I had died, then it would have been easier for the town to look at that either way and say "CWR was suspicious of the Doctor claim by Charter. Now he's dead?" And really, it shouldn't matter who's alive or dead, it's way to easy for scum to manipulate that and this entire conversation is way to WIFOM. I believe this is the correct definition, right?

[ClockworkRuse]

I'm here. I'm still looking everything over, trying to figure this whole mess out.

[ClockworkRuse]

Trust me, I know we need an opinion.

It's just a little hard because I can still see both cases being plausible.

Strife, why are you so set on Sthar?

[ClockworkRuse]

To be honest, I'm leaning toward charter for scum. With a jailer, JOAT, a cop, and masons, a Doctor would see over powered. We already saw that with the Jailer's role, the name didn't make much sense with the power.

His points so far have been iffy at best, as sthar has already commented, and his amount of active lurking at pseudo-endgame so far has been a little suspicious too. Plus, the way he attacked me when I suggested that something was wrong when the doctor was still alive was odd to, as I still think that is reasonable thinking.

Vote: charter

I have to go with what I think, and I think that charter is more likely to be scum then sthar.

[ClockworkRuse]

Note that charter has not responded to my assertion that I cannot logically be the RB. He knows he's dead.

I was just going to ask about this.

Unvote

Request Deadline Extension

A small one, I want to see what charter has to say.

[ClockworkRuse]

Charter, what do you have to say for yourself?

What is your reasoning against Sthar being jailed night two?

[ClockworkRuse]

Charter, what do you have to say for yourself?

What is your reasoning against Sthar being jailed night two?

I protected strife, didn't do any good though. I understand how this looks bad on me, but BB lied when he claimed (post 586 for reference). This is apparrent to me now (because sthar8 is scum). I see how it probably isn't to you, but I suppose it's up to you to get a win for us CWR. Good luck making the right choice.

vote sthar8

Nothing besides that? You think that the jailer lied to us? I don't see that being very likely.

Vote: Charter

[ClockworkRuse]

Good game then sthar8.

Honestly, do you think that BB would lie to us and help the scum? What reason would he have to lie?

I just don't see this as being a reasonable play by him.

[ClockworkRuse]

I lie all the time in mafia games. I've lied several times this game. I abhor LAL because it's incredibly flawed.

But what would be the point of the Jailer lying about who he jailed?

There is no pro-town advantage to it.

[ClockworkRuse]

I think you should be kicking yourself Charter. If I would have died the day before role-claiming, Darla would have been safe. And it didn't seem like anyone was likely to take my 'Why is the doctor still alive?' comments seriously.