Mini 619 - Ramen Mafia (Over!)

[strife220]

I don't like the idea of the town deciding on your kill. First, there's no way we can reach a consensus. Second, you're letting the mafia influence your kill, hence I think it's plausibe that you're going to kill a townie.

We don't have to reach a majority, we just have to have enough people input opinions and Kiwi to say 'alright guys, I'm going to kill *Person X* tonight.

Shouldn't let mafia influence the kill? Mafia influence every kill made in Mafia - that's one of the ways we're supposed to catch them. That's why we discuss reasons for and against lynching a player.

Am I the only one noticing strife picked me for scum in the beginning of the game and hasn't dropped it or looked much for anyone else? You stretch everything I say strife to make another argument against me. I don't say he shouldn't let scum influence his kill. I say he can't help it. You in fact took the opposite of what I said and tried to twist it into another argument against me.

I'm actually not trying to turn your words against you. My main reason for voting you is still your reaction to my early day statement, the OMGUS on me, and the weak attack on Darla. I'm legitimately disagreeing with your points here.

I still don't understand your point "you're letting mafia influence the kill, and thus will probably kill a townie." Perhaps I'll understand your thought process better if you answer this question: If you were a pro-town vig this game (ignoring the fact that Kiwi has claimed vig), would you use your kill ability tonight, knowing that probability dictates that you'll likely hit a townie?

[ClockworkRuse]

Here's my problem with picking Kiwi's target, just so you all know. Mafia could easily decide to NK to make it seem like he was lying and the the NK immune player out of the game. That would really hurt us. That's why it isn't worth following. It's too easily manipulated.

Expect more later.

Could you elaborate on this? You mean if we pick a target for Kiwi to off, and scum overlap the kill? This sounds like a big pro-town advantage, since scum would only do this if we chose a townie for Kiwi to kill. Moreover, in some games if two alignments target the same player for a nightkill, the flavor will say something like "Player XXX, shot and stabbed N1" to indicate he was double-killed.

That isn't a pro-town advantage at all. A scum directed kill for Kiwi means that a townie would die. Then, if the scum was smart, they would NK to make it seem like Kiwi has lied to us after all. The scum would then push for a lynch on Kiwi once again to get rid of the 'NK Immune Miller Vig' and a threat to them.

Also, I'd like to say that if Creamy Chicken is so popular, why would it be a miller?

[charter]

I still don't understand your point "you're letting mafia influence the kill, and thus will probably kill a townie." Perhaps I'll understand your thought process better if you answer this question: If you were a pro-town vig this game (ignoring the fact that Kiwi has claimed vig), would you use your kill ability tonight, knowing that probability dictates that you'll likely hit a townie?

No I wouldn't and regardless of when I used it, I would not have people discussing about it in thread. Also, the fact that no one has given a reason to not kill liam tonight (again for an arbitrary reason, lurking is a null tell in my book) tells me that liam is town. His scumbuddies would have at least suggested someone else, but no one has said anything other than kill liam. Sooo since the mafia already know kiwi has to kill liam, we're just going to lose two townies tonight.

This is my main reason for not wanting to direct kills. I didn't say it before because I could have possibly used my knowledge of liam being a townie to help out later, but now everyone can as well. Of course, now there's two options. Go through with the liam kill, or pick someone else. Now if you direct it, no one will, for sure, step in because it will look like they're defending their scumbuddy.

There is literally no good that can come from discussing his NK in this thread. Regardless of the situation the mafia can make a kill so that all of tomorrow will be spent WIFOMing to death. I've noted who all seemed to think discussing his idea was a good idea...

[Beyond_Birthday]

That is actually a very good point. My suspicions of charter dropped a bit, unless Liam was mafia....

Hmm...
I can't think of anything to remedy this off the top of my head. I will think about it....

[ClockworkRuse]

If you want someone else to direct a kill at, go ahead and direct one at me. I'm okay dying for the town if it gets us somewhere.

[windkirby]

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

[ClockworkRuse]

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

[Oman]

I finding Kiwi's claim hard to believe since it looks suspiciously copypasta'd (Lol, get it?) right off of Oman's title.

But I guess we could try letting him kill a planned target.

Unvote

Probably cause it is. BBM uses the role that I fakeclaimed, thats the point, thats what makes the role likely to exist.

"Kiwi must be SK or vig, and regardless of which, town can use the NK to their advantage"

Because an SK will turn against the town the moment they feel they can get away with it, and will kill us all in our sleep.

Clockwork wins with logic, congrats.

I actually suggest that kiwi cream me. I really think this is the best option.

[aioqwe]

erm why Oman? He's not scum from my PoV.

I dunno why creamy is miller. My role does not state its miller but given the similarity and the relevance between the two games, a role based on Oman's claim seems possible.

How can the mafia rig the kill? It's already pointed out that this could be a possibility. How does the mafia know that both a vig and SK don't exist? In which case there still might be two kills. Or am I missing something?

I'm still at my cousins house so my access is somewhat limited and I have a 10 hr. road trip from baltimore to alpharetta tomorrow...

[Oman]

Because, you creaming me is the optimal solution. It keeps me happy, and lets you prove yourself.

[strife220]

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

I already addressed this, but I'll do it again. How can mafia not using their nightkill be a bad thing?

What alternative do you suggest - that we just assume Kiwi is telling the truth and keep him around until end-game? Let him vig/SK unclaimed people who have confirmable roles?

[melikefood]

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

I'm lost here, how would the Vig's claim lose credibility if the mafia makes no kill?

[ClockworkRuse]

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

I'm lost here, how would the Vig's claim lose credibility if the mafia makes no kill?

The mafia would claim that he lied to us and is mafia. Get it? Basically, we can't know if he's conformable or not if the mafia no kill. D=

I already addressed this, but I'll do it again. How can mafia not using their nightkill be a bad thing?

What alternative do you suggest - that we just assume Kiwi is telling the truth and keep him around until end-game? Let him vig/SK unclaimed people who have confirmable roles?

The thing is that this entire situation is way to easy to manipulate. That's the problem I'm trying to point out. In my honest opinion we will eventually have to lynch Kiwi due to that possibility. Right now, we don't have to. Also, if we absolutely need to take someone out to make him prove what he is I'll offer myself up to it. Instead of taking on the the most scummy person in the game, someone like me can be taken out without much loss to the town and he can be confirmed.

But even with that, it's still really easily manipulated.

[Flameaxe]

I'll catch this up tomorrow.

[Oman]

Unless he targets me tonight I will vote and lead a wagon against him tomorrow.

[melikefood]

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

I'm lost here, how would the Vig's claim lose credibility if the mafia makes no kill?

The mafia would claim that he lied to us and is mafia. Get it? Basically, we can't know if he's conformable or not if the mafia no kill. D=

If either of these end up being true, then we either Controlled the Mafia's kill or Kept the mafia from attacking.

If he ends up disloyal to the town, we can lynch him later.

[sthar8]

Ok, so I just checked the thread for new posts, and was astonished to see strife's post in the place where I thought my last post was, expressing just about the same thoughts. Turns out, when I rolled out of bed to go find some coughdrops and tissues, I forgot to hit the submit button. So, here is the original missing post. Some of these questions have already been answered, and I will post again as soon as I have read the intervening posts.

Clockwork, can you explain that please? I don't see how the mafia kill could make kiwi appear to be lying.

Kiwi: You don't get to decide whether the town can direct your kill or not. If we give you a kill to make, and you decide to kill someone else, you die. Period.

If we decide that Kiwi should pick his own kills, I want full and complete reasoning from him at the start of each day. This should prevent him from using Oman's strategy from the prequel. Basically, Oman made his infamous claim fairly late in the game, and explained his kills up to that point with "sorry I'm bad at vig."

I haven't decided whether Kiwi's kill would be best used as a no kill, or on Liam. A no kill would force Kiwi to go against the best strat for a win as SK, and as SK he might not even be allowed to no kill. On the other hand, we have no idea how many kills there are in this setup. If Kiwi's kill flavor isn't obviously connected to his claimed mechanism, he could kill without us knowing, or a third killing role might be able to set him up. If Kiwi targets Liam, we get an example of his killing flavor, which is Very Important. My only problem with this is that I think we should try to force Kiwi to do something that makes it harder for an SK to win, and I think that might be harder to do on later days.

I chose Liam for the potential NK because he hasn't been contributing enough for anybody to get a read on him, but he has been posting just enough to avoid modkill. This makes me nervous.

[sthar8]

Also, the fact that no one has given a reason to not kill liam tonight (again for an arbitrary reason, lurking is a null tell in my book) tells me that liam is town. His scumbuddies would have at least suggested someone else, but no one has said anything other than kill liam.

This made me laugh.

I am very okay with the mafia allowing town to direct their kill. In that case we lose the scummiest player instead of the towniest, and all it buys for scum is a small opportunity to try to convince us on weak, silly reasoning that a claimed vig is actually mafia, rather than the easier to believe theory that he is an SK.

I am also OK with fewer kills at night. Docs are powerful pro-town roles.

Oman and Clockwork are not helping with their eagerness to martyr themselves. I think that the best option would be to have Kiwi kill a scummy player, but I don't have anyone on my list that I'm confident enough to suggest. Next best thing is to possibly confirm Kiwi's role flavor by sacrificing someone who isn't really playing the game at all. Liam's signature says that he will be V/LA for 23 more days. I'm not willing to give him a free pass for that amount of time, and it doesn't look like we'll be able to get a read on him until then. Worst case is to trade an active, townie player for the possibility of Kiwi information. Unless Oman can give us a very good reason that he should be targeted tonight, there is no way I'll support his silly bandwagon tomorrow. It really is very noble of Oman and Clockwork to offer, but lets stick with pro-town solutions for now.

I think it might be best at this point to let Kiwi decide whether to use his power, and where to direct it. As long as he can adequately explain himself tomorrow, I'm willing to trust him for now.

We are running out of time for our lynch. charter still seems the scummiest to me.

Happy scumday charter!

[Oman]

No Sthar8, I am helping with my eagerness to "martyr" myself. Because Creamy chicken will not kill me.

[sthar8]

If being targeted will not kill you, then this setup is very interesting. I don't to see how this helps us, though, since a failed kill will not give us Kiwi's kill flavor.

[Oman]

Yeah. If he is creamy chicken its in my best interest to keep him alive and get targeted. If he's not, creamy chicken should counter right now.

[strife220]

Oman, your semi-claim isn't helping anything. You're not giving enough information to convince anyone (presumably including Kiwi) to agree with you. For the like 4th time, the "trust me" argument fails.

Given it's a day until deadline, I'll say let Kiwi live, and he gets his own choice, since so few people are contributing to the direction.

[melikefood]

So, what about our lynch?
Are we gonna use it, or completely rely on the Vig kill?

[Flameaxe]

Votecount #6

Charter [3] (Sthar8, Strife220, Windkirby)
Aioqwe [3] (DarlaBlueEyes, charter, Muerrto)
Melikefood [1] (Aioqwe)

Not Voting [5] (CallMeLiam, ClockworkRuse, Beyond_birthday, Oman, melikefood)

Kiwi didn't post 24 hours after the prod, second strike.
Liam has missed a 48 hour period, strike/prod.

[strife220]

if we don't pile 7 votes on someone in the next day, it's going to be a no-lynch