Mini 619 - Ramen Mafia (Over!)

[charter]

vote melikefood

because he's the unfortunate soul to be listed first.

[charter]

A random lynch has a 1/12 chance of hitting scum, which is better than a 0/12.

Its all in the math.

Isn't there normally three scum in a mini? This would suggest there's a 1/4 chance of hitting scum on a random lynch, not the 1/12 like you say.

[charter]

4 votes on MLF is much more pushy than a dice vote deserves, in my opinion. Me thinks there's at least one scum on that wagon, unless there's another reason for voting him that I missed. Aioqwe and windkirby both have pretty crappy reasons for joining a wagon like that.

I'll go ahead and fix this for you.

unvote
vote strife

If you're already going to assume that one of four people is scum, I'll just go ahead and assume you're scum.

Serious now, you're already trying to direct suspicion towards others, hence my vote on you. Not really towards a single person either...

[charter]

If you're already going to assume that one of four people is scum, I'll just go ahead and assume you're scum.

I find this strange, he didn't vote on you directly. He pointed out that the other players who voted on me had weak justifications. Not you.

I didn't see you as suspicions until you said this.

That was a joke, notice the "Serious now" part of my post. I suppose it should have come before my vote and not before my justification for it, but yeah, what I said where you quoted doesn't even make sense for a reason to vote someone.

Also, it's not that the people had poor reasons for voting for you, I agree, but you already labeled at least one of them as scum, which I don't neccessarily agree with at this point.

[charter]

unvote
vote Darla

For hypocrisy and basically waiting for someone to build a case she can latch onto. (That's how I interpret 'look for anything that really jumps out at me')

[charter]

I am not gonna do my typical uber-conservative voting style considering our deadlined days, however at this point I am gonna

unvote

Saying you're not going to be conservative with your vote, but then unvote

[charter]

Charter- Attacking Darla because she unvoted is... rather weak as well. Unvoting until she can re-read and form her own opinions of what is happening isn't something that warrents a vote. I would like you to explain why you find this scummy.

It was more of her saying that she's not going to be a conservative voter and then immediately unvotes. I dont think liam had any other serious votes, so there wasn't any danger in keeping it on either. At the time, it really jumped out at me. I reread the thread and I should have just seen what she posts next and go from there, but I don't really know why she felt the need to tell us how she would be voting either. I'm going to leave it there until she does give her thoughts.

[charter]

Sorry, I posted in the V/LA thread that I was going to be gone and I didn't have time before I left to pm all the mod's of my games... But I'm back now. I don't have much time now, but I went through quickly so I'll address this.

Unvote, Vote Charter

The vote on me was horrible, your vote on Darla was horrible, and your overdefensiveness to me saying 'there's probably scum on the MLF-wagon' implies that I was definitely correct, and possibly even nailed both you and your partner.

Now you've convinced yourself that you are correct? So according to you, since there's two scum in that four, what order would you lynch them in? Why aren't you arguing to lynch all of them, since you're "definately correct"? You think you know everything, but I can't see how you're so sure that you're right. I agree that the wagon on food was poorly justified, but I think you're reading much too far into it and whatever convinced you that you've already found two scum.

[charter]

My reread. Don't know how I missed this one before...

4 votes on MLF is much more pushy than a dice vote deserves, in my opinion. Me thinks there's at least one scum on that wagon, unless there's another reason for voting him that I missed. Aioqwe and windkirby both have pretty crappy reasons for joining a wagon like that.

The reasons people voted food.

Me - his name was first
Oman - "Dice tags are wrong and evil, and you should be killed"
kiwi - "outside of me, his actions seem interesting"
WK - "Not crazy about dicing"

What makes Oman's reason (or mine) any less crappy? You didn't mention Oman, but everyone who voted for Food had a poor reason.

In the beginning Muerrto seems to buddy up with a lot of people. I don't think there's much to gain there unless he is scum, but he hasn't done anything that scummy, so at this point I think he's just friendly (though hasn't buddied up to me )

Oman -

Unvote Vote Muerrto

I find it incredulous that you acutally believe that he could be scummy after a townie did it in LYLO and you accept that it could be town.

And people say I'm quick to change my vote? He unvotes kiwi saying there is nothing on him, when there are quite a few people who have givin valid reasons to suspect him as scum. Muerrto questions Oman about this, but Oman ignores it, so Oman care to elaborate on your vote for Muerrto?

Next Muerrto follows Oman's 'experience' and unvotes kiwi and seems to have dropped all questioning of Oman.

Oman ignores all questions from strife in post 160, and counters with a giant post of fluff. Oman, will you go back and answer the questions to you that you ignored from before?

Reread the thread.

unvote, vote: sthart8

Primarily vibes, although Oman is becoming a close second in that category. If anyone has questions about either of these vibes, I can probably scrounge up the posts that did it.
The "communication" between Oman and Muerrto, I find, is minor at best, however, although now that it has been mentioned, I've made a note to keep an eye on them. At the level it's at now, though, I don't find it very suspicious.

I'd like to know where your vibes come from. Strhart seems pretty pro town to me.

I really don't know why I said 'definitely' there. Maybe I shouldn't be making posts at 2AM - the sentence "implies that I was definitely correct" is a bit self-contradicting. I should have wrote "reinforces my confidence."

So you're still saying that me and another person on that wagon are scum? So I'll ask you again, why aren't you trying to get us lynched? You're voting me, but having made much of a big case on me.

Any reason for you to give votecounts? Any reason for your revised one to be forged? If you added votes wrongly to someone else but me I'd chalk it up to an honest mistake, but since you're gunning just for me, it makes it seem like you want me to appear to have more votes than I do for some reason. Care to share?

Reread the thread.

unvote, vote: sthart8

Primarily vibes, although Oman is becoming a close second in that category. If anyone has questions about either of these vibes, I can probably scrounge up the posts that did it.
The "communication" between Oman and Muerrto, I find, is minor at best, however, although now that it has been mentioned, I've made a note to keep an eye on them. At the level it's at now, though, I don't find it very suspicious.

What the hell is wrong with you? After all this time, with ALL that is said, you can’t even give a serious reason?

And how in seven blazes Oman anywhere near a second at this point?

I can see Sthart8 as coming under suspicion, but seriously, you have NO reasons? You put all the time it takes to reread, but you NEVER took out quotes or typed notes for reasons so that you don’t look like a random voter by not giving reasons?

Reason I changed to Windkirby:
Error? I dunno, but I don’t want to vote him:

Unvote

Bold Mine. Couple things off here. You vote for WK with no explanation but say you'll explain in a minute, and this is the explanation? Care to explain why you really voted for him? As in why pick him? Also you wonder how Oman could possibly be on WK's suspect list, and then...

@ Oman, your play here bothers me. While I do agree that townies shouldn’t look too much into encoded messages if you are town power roles,

I am very suspicious of your suggestion to simply look the other way. The entire argument seems to force town to question whether the action is scummy, but to do so by not looking at the argument...

Second, your attack on Muerrto may have been an intelligent move in order to push against him and test him as town, but... I really, really don’t like you defense of the encoded messages observation by strife. I disagree, however, that the two of you are likely scum buddies.

However, there is certainly the remaining chance one of you is scum. I can see that as a decent possibility.

“Note: we're not encoding them. We're talking about something you don't understand. The difference is that what we're doing is not anti-town at all. Unless you believe it to be, in which case I would love to hear that. “ ~Oman (being lazy)

NOTE: I don’t think that it is encoding or anti-town, just using the terms so you know what I am referring to. I do not see anything very scummy about it, aside from the fact that you seemed very strange. Even though I haven’t metagamed anyone here, I can only draw the conclusion that I have said about you testing Muerrto. Even though this doesn’t make a lot of sense, I am going to review it in case it becomes more important later.

Third:

ow are we supposed to know that what you're doing is pro-town?

No. Its irrelevant to the game.

Case in point. If you and windkirby are both town, you've struck him with paranoia and distracted him from trying to find scum.

Windkirby, I love you dearly, please don't take this badly but:

Thats not my problem, nor my fault. If a player is distracted by small simple things, then if its not me, it'll be something else.

The idea that it isn’t your problem for townies to be distracted seems scummish. Because, it wouldn't be your problem only if you are mafia. So, seems slightly suspect.

*Sighs*

The only thing that changed is that, as of right now, you are not in my list of people I think to be village.

I do not think that it was significantly pro town, unless it is revealed later, but I will certainly look into my own thoughts later, should something really set my alarm off about you, Oman.

Bold mine. Here (later in the same post) you yourself list several reasons why Oman is scummy. Explanation for this?

unvote

because Darla explained herself.

[charter]

EBWOP

So I'll ask you again, why aren't you trying to get us lynched? You're voting me, but

having

made much of a big case on me.

Should read

So I'll ask you again, why aren't you trying to get us lynched? You're voting me, but

haven't

made much of a big case on me

[charter]

What makes Oman's reason (or mine) any less crappy? You didn't mention Oman, but everyone who voted for Food had a poor reason.

Strife220 is Oman's scumbuddy? Nah. I feel Strife's opinions was that food only deserved 1-2 votes for dicing. Obviously I feel differently and I wouldn't consider your vote as a vote because it was random.

Thanks for answering Strife's question... Now how are we supposed to know the real reason why he didn't include Oman in his list?

[charter]

The votecount is because I was interested, and because deadline is now looming and we have to start thinking more seriously about who to lynch. Votecount lays out everyone's opinion on that matter.

What do you mean my latter votecount was forged? Are you pointing out how I had to post two? If so, look at the time stamps. My first vote count was made one minute after BB changed his vote, hence the 'crossposting' comment.

No, I'm pointing out how you put extra votes on my name. I can't believe you went back and looked and missed it again after I pointed it out that first time either. Your first votecount.

Unofficial vote count:
Aioqwe [2] (Beyond_Birthday, DarlaBlueEyes)
Charter [2] (Sthar8, Strife220)
Melikefood [1] (Aioqwe)
Muerrto [1] (Oman)
DarlaBlueEyes [1] (Charter)
Sthar8 [1] (Windkirby)

Unofficial deadline count: about 7 and a half days.

Your second one

EBWOP: Lots of crossposting.

New Unofficial vote count:
Aioqwe [1] (DarlaBlueEyes)

Charter [3] (Sthar8, Strife220, Beyond_Birthday)

Melikefood [1] (Aioqwe)
Muerrto [1] (Oman)
DarlaBlueEyes [1] (Charter)
Sthar8 [1] (Windkirby)

The only person who changed votes while you could possibly have been posting was BB. He changed his vote to WK, not charter, like you are trying to make others believe.

[charter]

Before I forget, BB, can you answer why you voted WK then immediately unvoted and never gave a reason for either action?
Oman, ever going to get time to answer those questions I pointed out to you?
Strife, waiting for your response to 205. I guess since there's no official question in there, why did you heap another vote onto me? What were you trying to gain? Like I said, I'd believe it to be an accident if it was for someone else than the person you're trying to lynch, but it isn't so it seems fishy.

Thats a good point Strife, I do need to have my vote out since we're nearing deadline.

vote WK

I think Oman has already shot down all three of WK's reason's for voting Oman, but I'll add my two cents.

And for Oman (numbered by everyone's posts)

29: I didn't like his denial of sthar8's plan. He says it makes it too easy for scum to control the town, but honestly, this would be ridiculously transparent. Would a no-lynch honestly be better?

Oman never said, or eluded to a no lynch being better. He was opposed to have a set plan because he thought it would be easy for scum to manipulate it. I happened to agree with Oman. And no, it might not be as obvious as you are making it out to be. Say there are two people at five or six votes, one scum comes on and unvotes or revotes someone and can easily prevent a lynch (this is assuming they don't just say unvote X vote Y, and actually make it seem legitimate)

108:

What system is it on?

this. It's not as bad as food's post because at least food's reference to the game was relevant to his quietness, as he put it, whereas here Oman simply continues to lead conversation away from what's important.

So you weren't "continuing to lead conversation away from what's important" with this?

I have a DS, but I'm busy with "The World Ends with You".

Fortunately, because it's not like we have any mafia games going on or anything, we can guilt-free-ly focus all of our attention to the lovely games on the Nintendo DS regardless of what we're actually supposed to be doing right now, like, I don't know, play mafia or whatever. Wait, what is mafia again? More importantly, is everyone picking up on my sarcasm? Maybe it was too subtle...

?

[charter]

Way too premature for a claim, I don't like how he gives up and claims cop when theres just a small hint of him getting lynched. The real cop would not want to give themselves up that easy. That said, I don't buy it, but it's definately not worth the chance that he's lying to lynch him anyway. So

unvote

Botch Windkirby...

Food, how come you didn't unvote him?

[charter]

I will absolutely give my results first thing each day (as well as my reason for choosing that person), but one thing I'm wondering about is whether I should investigate people who I am suspicious of or people who the town is generally suspicious of. I'm guessing the latter, but if I happen to clear someone the town was suspicious of, it might make things difficult, and, as sthar said, make people want to lynch me to confirm my investigations.

First, investigate who you think is scum. If you're the real cop, you are sure of your own motivations. You don't know how much the scum influence who the town thinks is scum.

I'm fine with this, but I'd like to know what sort of thing I should be aiming for when choosing my investigated. If you'd rather not give me any direction at all so that scum cannot predict who I will investigate, this is fine, also.

Don't take other people's input unless they are confirmed townies.

[charter]

EBWOP: Oops, hit submit instead of preview, I was going to merge two posts into one gigantic response, so the other one with my response to things addressed to me is following.

[charter]

Ok, I just started rereading at page 8, and went through, so if you have a question/concern I haven't addressed, let me know, and I'll get on it. Sorry this took so long, but I'm at work, so I have to do some legitimate work...

Charter is still my number one suspect. His first two attacks were garbage, and he spent a long time doing nothing. His recent posts started off by attacking strife's suspicions of him on points of diction. He also seems to respond to strife's "there were some poorly reasoned votes on that wagon" with "Every vote on that wagon was poorly reasoned. How is that scummy?" which isn't really a defense.

I'm not attacking strife's suspicion of me, I attacked his assertion that at least one of the four voting food was scum.

He then bites at Oman's gambit-bait, though not with any real conviction.

According to you, how is that any different than any of my other votes? Also, a lot of people are putting absolute trust in Oman and his numerous gambits. Not trying to portray him in a bad light or anything. I'm just saying on day one I'm not very trusting of anyone.

Next, charter attacks BB on an "inconsistancy" in BB's post, but on further examination I think it fairly clear that the expressed opinions are not inconsistant.

I questioned why he voted for someone and unvoted and gave no reason. Saying it was a mental mistake is fine, but I didn't know that when I questioned him. Attack is a little extreme of word to be using, I questioned him, I didn't even accuse him.

I find charter's assertion that strife intentionally botched his unofficial votecounts to be a big stretch, since I don't see anything for strife to gain by doing so, regardless of alignment.

Well, I didn't see it as as big of a stretch as you did I suppose.

Sthar8, could you direct me to "Charter has not yet responded to my initial posted suspicions of him, other than to adjust his posting style away from what I noted as suspicious. " the post you're referring to there, I can't find it.

[charter]

According to you, how is that any different than any of my other votes? Also, a lot of people are putting absolute trust in Oman and his numerous gambits.

Your other attacks have been much more confident in presentation, even though they were quickly dropped. I attribute this to the awkwardness Muerrto created with his response to Oman's attack. Who do you think has been trusting in Oman's gambits? I seem to be seeing a lot more suspicion of them than you do, and I know

I've

never stated that I'm trusting in his pro-town intentions or the results of his gambits.

Meurrto certainly seems to believe them. I took people not expressing their reservations about his gambits to mean they were ok with them. I suppose absolute trust was a far reach. Meurrto also gives me the impression that he is 100% convinced Oman is town (post 202), which is troubling for day one.

I was referring to the third of your post dedicated to pointing out inconsistancy in BB's attitude toward Oman.

Once again, I wasn't attacking him. I was questioning him. I think it's odd that he proclaimed Oman town at the beginning of his post but then gives a few examples of how Oman was scummy. I didn't draw conclusions on either one of them, but I was noting it.

I'm going to go ahead and

Unvote, Vote: charter

You have six in-game posts, and three of those have been votes. Two of the remaining three have been explanations for your serious votes. Now, your second point against Darla may be valid (I'll wait till her post to decide) but it seems to me that you are fishing for reactions with these votes, which could be scum trying out wagons to find the easy lynch.

Not entirely sure what you want me to respond to here, probably why I "have not yet responded to [your] initial posted suspicions of [me]". I did have six posts, three were votes, two more were explanations. You say I might have a valid point in there. The only thing I could possibly comment on is "it seems to me that you are fishing for reactions with these votes, which could be scum trying out wagons to find the easy lynch." Yeah I was trying to get reactions from the people I voted to see if they would jump and overreact when I voted them. They didn't so I backed off them. I'm not going to fabricate a case against them based on one little thing at the beginning of the game.
The last part of that is your thoughts. I can tell you that's not my intentions, but obviously I can't prove that to you.

@Oman, going to answer any of the questions that multiple people here have asked you? You keep ignoring them, and the requests to answer them...

@food,

Kiwi I don't find suspicious, just defensive trying to bat off accusations from him.

Charter I'm not suspicious of either, his vote was before my dicing and was random.

Based on other's stuff I'm finding Charter the most suspicious.
I don't find Aiwoqe very suspicious. Only a teeny tiny bit.

What's this "other's stuff" that prompted this 180 degree turn?

[charter]

EBWOP: To clarify the response to the first quote in my post. I know that some people did say they didn't like it, like strife, but there were plenty who didn't voice concerns.

[charter]

Strife, Kiwi has a vote too. You seem to have a lot of trouble with votecounts... Also, by your logic, you shouldn't lynch me, as I have two strikes. I don't think strikes mean anything (with respect to your role), I was out of town and just posted in the V/LA thread and didn't have time to pm my mods and I got two strikes out of it. Does that mean that I shouldn't be lynched ever because I have two strikes, but still plan on participating fully? No. Your logic here is horribly flawed... Let people be immune from lynch because there's a chance they might get modkilled...

Why do you say Kiwi is likely out of the running? Obviously I'm not going to vote myself, and right now I just think Food is a useless townie, so I'm considering Kiwi because speculation about him served to consume a large portion of D1.

[charter]

If someone is modkilled during the day, do we still get a lynch mod?

I think it would be pertinant to find that out first strife...

[charter]

Ok, questions for Oman here, I know I missed some, apologies. How do the rest of you take for granted that Oman is town? He pretends he's lazy, but look at his defenses whenever anyone casts suspicion on him. He's acts lazy when people ask him to answer questions, but when it's his own neck on the line he's not. Go back and look if you don't believe me, then ask Oman a question or two.

I just went back to page 7, any before then and I won't have them again here.

Post 160. Strife asks you questions.

Oman, did you find anything from your gambit or was it a flop?

"Sort of" being, what about Food's bandwagon? Page 2, 4 votes from using dice to random vote? If you think townie-wagons grow faster than scum-wagons, you must think it's because there is scum on them. Why haven't you invested much interested into the members of said wagon?

Because I don't think that the members on it will give much. I took a look at them and decided it was a much more reasonable and a much more logical strategy to focus on other things which were more reliable. You see, newbies often wagon hard as town or scum, so its less reliable.

Windkirby has been on this site for over 4 months and has made almost 400 posts. Kiwi has been on this site for a year and has made over 700 posts. You're offering them a newbie defense?


What are your feelings on Charter's OMGUS over-reaction to my accusation?

Now then... I'll ask it again. XD

Oman- Do you think your gambit worked well? Did you find anything through it?

Oman, what are your thoughts on charter?

Oman responds saying he needs to do a reread on me, I haven't really stood out. Now he's flip flopped magically (I assume he didn't do the reread based on how lazy he wants us to think he is with his last post, and he never posted thoughts on me) and voted for me.

Maybe the

third time

is the charm.

Oman- What, if anything, did you find through your gambit?

While going back through, I realized Kiwi did a bunch of scummy things that even I questioned him about too. Like I said before, I think Food is just useless, and since I know I'm not a good lynch for today,

vote Kiwi

Why do you guys say you'd prefer my lynch, but you don't vote me (obviously not strife or sthat)? I honestly can't see any reason with a deadline this close, so enlighten me. These people include windkirby, Oman and Food.

[charter]

WK, you listen to the person you find scummiest's advice? I don't think I need to tell you how suspicious that is...

[charter]

IMO it was a flop, muerrto seems to think it had worth.

Anyway, a lot of people are vs charter that never were...must reviw.

What the hell? YOU'RE one of those people. I even showed you this in my post a few minutes ago, but I suppose it's too big for you need to bother to read

[charter]

Oh wait, I didn't, so I'll go ahead and post it now, give me a minute.

[charter]

I'm an idiot. It is in there, but so Oman can see it again.

Oman, what are your thoughts on charter?

Oman responds saying he needs to do a reread on me, I haven't really stood out. Now he's flip flopped magically (I assume he didn't do the reread based on how lazy he wants us to think he is with his last post, and he never posted thoughts on me) and voted for me.

Sorry for my posting binge.

[charter]

I still am not buying kiwiwagon 08

ARE YOU STILL NOT BUYING THE GET OFF YOUR LAZYASSWAGON?

[charter]

Are you claiming to be a NK immune vig?

[charter]

In other news, charter continues to appear scummy with his desperate attempts to get anyone lynched but himself.

Well, since I know I'm town, and there's others that have acted scummy, it kind of makes sense, doesnt it?

[charter]

I don't like the idea of the town deciding on your kill. First, there's no way we can reach a consensus. Second, you're letting the mafia influence your kill, hence I think it's plausibe that you're going to kill a townie.

[charter]

Thanks.

[charter]

I don't like the idea of the town deciding on your kill. First, there's no way we can reach a consensus. Second, you're letting the mafia influence your kill, hence I think it's plausibe that you're going to kill a townie.

We don't have to reach a majority, we just have to have enough people input opinions and Kiwi to say 'alright guys, I'm going to kill *Person X* tonight.

Shouldn't let mafia influence the kill? Mafia influence every kill made in Mafia - that's one of the ways we're supposed to catch them. That's why we discuss reasons for and against lynching a player.

Am I the only one noticing strife picked me for scum in the beginning of the game and hasn't dropped it or looked much for anyone else? You stretch everything I say strife to make another argument against me. I don't say he shouldn't let scum influence his kill. I say he can't help it. You in fact took the opposite of what I said and tried to twist it into another argument against me.

[charter]

I still don't understand your point "you're letting mafia influence the kill, and thus will probably kill a townie." Perhaps I'll understand your thought process better if you answer this question: If you were a pro-town vig this game (ignoring the fact that Kiwi has claimed vig), would you use your kill ability tonight, knowing that probability dictates that you'll likely hit a townie?

No I wouldn't and regardless of when I used it, I would not have people discussing about it in thread. Also, the fact that no one has given a reason to not kill liam tonight (again for an arbitrary reason, lurking is a null tell in my book) tells me that liam is town. His scumbuddies would have at least suggested someone else, but no one has said anything other than kill liam. Sooo since the mafia already know kiwi has to kill liam, we're just going to lose two townies tonight.

This is my main reason for not wanting to direct kills. I didn't say it before because I could have possibly used my knowledge of liam being a townie to help out later, but now everyone can as well. Of course, now there's two options. Go through with the liam kill, or pick someone else. Now if you direct it, no one will, for sure, step in because it will look like they're defending their scumbuddy.

There is literally no good that can come from discussing his NK in this thread. Regardless of the situation the mafia can make a kill so that all of tomorrow will be spent WIFOMing to death. I've noted who all seemed to think discussing his idea was a good idea...

[charter]

Also, the fact that no one has given a reason to not kill liam tonight (again for an arbitrary reason, lurking is a null tell in my book) tells me that liam is town. His scumbuddies would have at least suggested someone else, but no one has said anything other than kill liam.

This made me laugh.

I am very okay with the mafia allowing town to direct their kill. In that case we lose the scummiest player instead of the towniest, and all it buys for scum is a small opportunity to try to convince us on weak, silly reasoning that a claimed vig is actually mafia, rather than the easier to believe theory that he is an SK.

You say my statement made you laugh. I assume your intent was to discredit my thought. What about my thought do you not agree with exactly? Why did you not put your reasoning in your original post?

Happy scumday charter!

Thank you

[charter]

Thanks for clearing up why you said it was funny. I just didn't like how you didn't post your reasons in the first place. While your points are valid, everything I said was still true (or at least plausible)

Well, I'm obviously not going to vote for myself. I still don't put a whole lot of stock in Kiwi's claim, so I'm still happy with lynching him since I know what my role is and his is quite questionable. This, unfortunately, isn't really a defense, but it's my reason for still voting him. I would vote food, but like I said, I'd wager he's just a not helpful townie.

[charter]

Well, I was hoping I could just keep it to myself and wouldnt need to claim, hence why I've waited so long, didn't want to out myself unnecessarily. But I'm a doctor. Each night I get to sprinkle my seasoning on someone to prevent them from being killed.

And yeah, WK claimed cop.

[charter]

I summarized this from my quote, don't want to copy and paste anything and risk a modkill.

Mysterious New Flavor - Doctor. I'm the mysterious new flavor of ramen. I could be beef or crab or horse shit. Each night I can sprinkle my seasoning on someone and it's mysterious power prevents them from being killed during the night.

As much as I hate to admit it, I think strife has the right idea here. I believe we should let Kiwi live tonight despite his scumminess, and deal with him tomorrow. If he pulls through, it will be a powerful addition to the town.

unvote, vote Callmeliam

I have a feeling Liam has the best chance for being the lynch today, so I'm voting him.

[charter]

Interesting night. I won't be able to post tonight, just trying to avoid another strike.

[charter]

People shouldn't really be doing anything until all claimed power-roles have checked in.

Agreed. Until I hear Kiwi's story, I'm not voting or saying anything important. I protected WK last night.

[charter]

I'd like it if we could just use the term night kill for Kiwi from now on. =D Thank you very much. That said...

Wow. That's all I can really say about Oman. I would also like to say, why is the doctor still alive? If I was mafia, that is exactly who I would go after first. I'm going to have to re-read on who claimed doc, but I find that very odd that mafia would leave a claimed doctor alive.

I'm the doctor. Glad to know what you would do if you were mafia. How exactly does that help us and not serve for a whole mess of pointless WIFOM discussion? Also, thanks for bringing attention to me, and ruin my chances of flying under the radar tonight.

[charter]

Why are you so anxious for a modkill on Kiwi?

[charter]

How do you know the mafia killed Oman? We were just told he was killed during the night.

[charter]

Why are you so anxious for a modkill on Kiwi?

The game is basically waiting on him. Me saying it won't make it any less true or not so there's no harm - Flameaxe has been keeping a close eye on time stamps

True. I guess I just interpret your several posts about him and being modkilled as seeming anxious.

[charter]

It didn't sound like you didn't know from your post... I don't understand you. You have no interest other than speculating (I use that loosely as you don't seem to be speculating) last night actions.

[charter]

Since I've grown bored of waiting for Kiwi...

vote clockworkruse

I don't know how you can slip knowing the thinking of scum and expect to get away with it.

mod, is Kiwi about to be modkilled, or are we getting our panties in a bunch for no reason?

[charter]

Since I've grown bored of waiting for Kiwi...

vote clockworkruse

I don't know how you can slip knowing the thinking of scum and expect to get away with it.

mod, is Kiwi about to be modkilled, or are we getting our panties in a bunch for no reason?

So instead of waiting for the information that the town needs to know right now, you'd rather get straight into lynching?

Yes, my one vote and practically no argument against you is going to lynch you. Where did I say I wanted to lynch you again? I want you to actually explain all your speculating and insider knowledge. I don't need to wait for Kiwi to come to try and figure out why you're so fast to propose all these theories (terrible ones at that, I can explain if anyone wants me to).

I didn't slip at all, it definitely made you worried about something. That is exactly what I was hoping for. Why are you so worried about the possibility I offered if you really are the doctor?

You DID slip, and now you're trying to play it off like it was some plan of yours. Just let the rest of us know when you're done with your speculating and want to try and find some scum, ok?

[charter]

CWR, you've made four posts, and in the first three you put forth no fewer than three different theories (one is kind of a repeat, so I'd assume that's the one you want the rest of the town to believe).

Wow. That's all I can really say about Oman. I would also like to say, why is the doctor still alive? If I was mafia, that is exactly who I would go after first.

There is also the possibility that they went after the cop and the doctor protected.

I think it should be obvious that scum would attempt to hit the doctor, then the cop.

It doesn't make sense for Mafia to not kill but there is the possibility that the doctor saved someone last night.

I didn't explicitly ask you any questions, it was implied that I wanted you to explain your speculating, and how your speculating benefits the town in any way. Since you need to be spoon fed, Why are you speculating the night actions before Kiwi speaks up? and How does speculating last night's actions benefit the town?

You're right though, I am worrying that we will waste our time with your speculating and end today with the same debacle as yesterday.

Preview - Haha, So I OMGUS voted you after you drop a major scumtell? Yes, OMGUS is the proper term for that type of vote.

[charter]

So is Kiwi modkilled?

[charter]

Hah, just looked through CWR's posts yesterday, and he was scheming mafia strategies yesterday as well. I'd say this was the most blatent,

I must say I haven't understood CR's last few posts... I don't get the point he's trying to make with the vig-scum-nkill-whatever deal.

But anyway, even if kiwi is lying or is an SK, we might as well save him for a bit later. After all, if he is SK, he's after the mafia, too...

Here, I'll chart it out.

Town - Alright Vig, kill X.
Vig- Okay.

Night comes around.
Vig nk's X
Mafia no kills.

The next day, mafia puts blame onto vig saying he faked claimed to try to get rid of the NK immune vig.

He also had a few more posts giving the mafia ideas on what to do during the night. CWR, why do you spend so much time trying to figure out what the scum will do/give them ideas?

I don't buy Muerrto's claim, but his wagon has grown far too quickly. I'd say give WK another night and see if we get a different result. Perhaps he is insane/paranoid. I'm convinced CWR needs to go today before he gives the scum more ideas...

[charter]

Did you even read my post? I'm asking him why he spends so much time speculating about the scum's night actions. I wasn't asking you to defend him.

[charter]

Food, the only way of knowing the sanity of a cop is to get two different results, one of which on a confirmed townie or scum. Anything else and you CAN NOT know the sanity of the cop. I know, I just played in a game with 8 cops, it was a pain figuring them out. I don't want to sound all doom and gloomy, but strife might be right about the misleading power, and I think CWR is the best lynch today.

[charter]

I don't think massclaiming is going to out anything else, however I don't think it's going to reveal anything but vanilla townies. On the off chance that we do have more town power, I say we don't mass claim yet.

Now then, can I ask why we aren't lynching Muerrto? With his lynch, we discover if our cop is insane, paranoid, or sane. Information that we need to know.

I get the feeling that CWR knows that Muerrto is town, and is misleadingly trying to convince us to lynch him based solely on WK's result. I've already explained. Lynching Muerrto will only narrow down WK's sanity to sane/insane or paranoid. Until you get a different result there's no way to figure out if he's useful or not. I also don't like his putting forth all these different theories on what could have happened during the night. Other than Muerrto's flimsy claim, and WK's result, I don't see anything else on him. I'm also fairly suspect of WK's claim, I have a hard time believing that we both have a sane cop, and that he is the sane cop.

Charter: Why wouldn't we lynch Muerrto today? If we fail to, we miss the opportunity to gain information about which of the four possible roles that WK has. We also potentially lose the use of a very pro-town role. I understand your reservations about potential cop sanity, but the only way to solve that problem is to act on WK's info.

I see what you're saying, I think it's just better to wait until tomorrow. If WK gets another guilty, then he's either a great cop, or insane/paranoid. Personally, WK has struck me as everything but great this game. If he gets an innocent tomorrow, then I'm all for lynching either Muerrto or the innocent. My vote goes for holding off until tomorrow.

I agree with Strife that I didn't 'save' anyone from anything and that BB shouldn't be using Oman's logic to defend me.

This makes no sense. Strh8 who said the only thing you saved us from was a pro-town strategy. Clarify?

WK, do you have any reason to say "since I still don't think there's a large enough chance I'm not sane"? Also, you start off you post saying you changed your mind, about what?

My vote still stands.

[charter]

Charter - Many doubt that Muerrto is guilty because a) my sanity and b) my alignment. I only

slightly

question my alignment

You're going to have to explain this one. How do you question your alignment, even slightly?

@Strife, I have no idea what your role is, but would you only claiming be beneficial?

[charter]

It may lead the Mafia away from you and WK.
I mean you've got a cop, a doc, and OOOH LOOK MYSTERY BOX!

Make sense.

[charter]

Nice, protected WK again. Also, I'm V/LA until sunday.

[charter]

Can post tomorrow night. (dont want my third strike)

[charter]

CWR, I don't understand why you would have a problem with the order, I assume it was because you were going first?

I guess I'll just wait for the rest of the massclaim before posting my thoughts.

[charter]

No, but as far as I can tell, we don't have any confirmed townies. So this would mean that unconfirmed ones would have to make it and agree upon it. I don't think fakeclaiming is going to be a good idea today, because once someone says they were just lying to try and catch scum, I don't think we'd have any choice but to lynch them.

[charter]

This is all fine and dandy, but I don't see how it helps us. Any of these claims could be just as made up as the next one. I want to believe strife and food. I don't think they, as scumbuddies, would have tried to pull off something that complex and out both of themselves in one fell swoop.

However, what do we do about sthar? That's a convenient claim as scum, and more than slightly suspicious with the absurd amount of town power we have.

I want to do a reread and see if I can find things I missed the first go around.
Food and strife, do you know the other town?

[charter]

Ummmmm, Darla, that's not a very convincing answer you give there...
This is the same sort of hesitance that Muerrto gave when he was told to claim. Yours and his seem more half-assed than everyone else.

And then CWR. His claim seems to be more believable, but I still think he's the scummiest.

BB is my third suspect. None of these three counterclaimed Meurrto and all of them should have. It seems to me that they were waiting to see if Meurrto could get away with the claim, and if not, they would step in.

I guess I'll pick up where I left off yesterday,

vote CWR

[charter]

I already said, the only people I'm really suspicious of are CWR, Darla, and BB. So I think it's entirely possible that it's CWR and Darla. I think when I voted, CWR had one other vote and I don't think Darla had any, so I put the second one on CWR. I have no problem lynching Darla, like you said, her claim has been horrible, just like Muerrto's. If the Darla wagon is the one that is favored, I'll jump on that one, but when I voted it was CWR's.

[charter]

unvote CWR, vote Darla

[charter]

But if I live on I'd be happy to subject myself to an investigation or whatnot

cough godfather cough

[charter]

Even if you aren't the godfather, it would be all too easy for WK to not get another pm, and buy you another day.

[charter]

I'm sorry, but didn't BB claim Chicken Jailer?

Yes, your point?

[charter]

Charter, has my claim made you feel that I'm more town? I understand that you still suspect me, and to be honest, I expect it and am VERY glad that you still do. That is a plus in my book for you being pro town as you should always suspect people regardless of claim, but is it more suspicion, less, or the same?

If Darla flips town, I'll be very suspect of you and will push your lynch all out tomorrow. If she flips scum, then I'm going for BB and I will think you are most likely town.

@strife, Flameaxe is V/LA for a while so I don't know when we're going to get a votecount or end of the day.

[charter]

I think we're getting close to a lynch here, so

Mod: Vote count please

No.

You're right, I got it backwards.

[charter]

Oh, I must have missed that. I was in a rush before. I had something I meant to address in my last post, but I can't remember it now. Hopefully it comes back to me.

[charter]

Second, if you don't like it, you'd best try and prove it wrong. Saying you don't like it isn't going to convince anyone you're scum.

Fifth, don't tell the scum who they can't kill tonight...

On a related note (and what I forgot yesterday)

I'd rather lynch Darla today because she's more likely to be scum (two plain dry raman?? deleted PM??). If BB is role-blocker, there isn't much damage he can do given the claimed roles. We have the ability to direct him as well, where he would be forced to role-block instead of make a kill (if RB can't do both). For example, if we lynch Darla and she flips Godfather, have BB jail the cop. If he's RBer, he'll be forced to use his RB instead of perform the kill (if that's how mechanics work with the RB role here). It also allows the doc to choose a different protection target.

How does this allow me to protect someone else exactly?

[charter]

That should be

Second, if you don't like it, you'd best try and prove it wrong. Saying you don't like it isn't going to convince anyone you're

NOT

scum.

[charter]

Ah. I see. I I take back my answer to your fifth question then BB.

[charter]

I don't really see what else there is to discuss today. There's no sense in planning out two scenarios based off what alignment Darla is, just wait until D4 when we know for sure. Hammer away.

[charter]

I don't think I've ever been in a game where a RB can both RB and kill the same night, might be something to ask the

mod

first.

[charter]

I protected CWR last night, I thought the plan was I could protect whoever I wanted? I figured that he was the least likely to be scum and also pretty likely for a NK after outing Darla like that.

vote BB
That's lynch-1!

[charter]

I have a dilemma. I think No Lynch is the proper play here (go into endgame with three and not four) but I'm all but convinced that CWR and strife are town. CWR after outing Darla like that, when there was no need for him to bus, and strife after food's mason flip. Hence, that leaves sthar8. I will try and get in a reread when I can and see where that leads me.

I don't see how telling who I protected is going to help us, but if you all want to know, I will tell.

[charter]

strife220

[charter]

The big point in charter's favor is that he claimed doc day 1, when he couldn't have known that there wasn't another doc in the setup. I think that his claim was intended to bait a real doc out, and give scum some gain from the loss of their roleblocker. When there was no counterclaim, he played along and hoped no one would notice that a claimed doc didn't die for

four consecutive nights

. We might be able to WIFOM some reasoning about hoping that he gets modkilled for the first couple of nights, but in the lategame there is no reason for scum to leave him alive if he's a doctor. In addition, I think the setup actually makes more sense without a doctor than with. strife, you gave the example of a standard cop, doc, vig, mason game, which you said favored the town slightly. If I am scum, that means our town power is cop, doc, JOAT, jailkeeper, masons. Doesn't it make more sense to balance this game by giving the town an underpowered doc (jailkeeper) and a bulletproof townie? The cop+doc combo is very powerful, and with the amount of power we already have I can't help but think the mod would have taken some precaution against it.

This is exactly what I was waiting for. The explanation as to why I've lived through all the nights. It was the most likely scenario I had come up with, and you've confirmed it for me. My theory is that you knew that this was coming and knew that the town would have no choice but to lynch the doc. I figured the last scum would use WIFOM right off the bat to try and get me lynched as opposed to actual arguments as to why I'm scummy. A) It's a whole lot easier and B) It's extremely believable in this situation. I have no explanation for living this long, and for failing to protect anyone the entire game (though that's really just two nights). Neither CWR nor strife proposed the WIFOM argument, even though they both must have been thinking it for a while.

Doesn't it make more sense to balance this game by giving the town an underpowered doc (jailkeeper) and a bulletproof townie? The cop+doc combo is very powerful, and with the amount of power we already have I can't help but think the mod would have taken some precaution against it.

I've pointed out several times how dangerous it is to make baseless assumptions and try to outguess the mod, but you ignore me and keep doing it anyway.

He's trying to sell it, but he doesn't believe in it.

Charter will surely pick Sthar8 over himself

Yes, I was waiting to see if my 'scum will propose WIFOM case right away' theory panned out.

vote sthar8

[charter]

unvote

Actually, I thought about it. If CWR is scum, then we would have just handed him the win. I reread a couple of posts from yesterday and BB had CWR as his top scum suspect. Plus, there is no need to put him at L-1 if CWR is indeed scum.

I need to do my reread, but I'm still almost positive it's sthar8.

[charter]

But not worth the risk of just throwing the game away.

[charter]

Ok, not WIFOM, but still not arguing as to why I'm scummy. I did a reread of CWR outing Darla, if they were scum, he didn't need to out her as he did. So while it's technically possible, I agree with strife that it's so remote as to not worry.

vote sthar8

[charter]

Any questions for me? (also avoiding modkill)

[charter]

My daily post.

[charter]

My daily post.

[charter]

First of all, I do not need any help with my vote. I'm not going to let anyone manipulate my vote like that.

I just thought from this you didn't want a gigantic battle between me and sthar8. I'll get on why sthar8 is scum for you.

[charter]

Ahhh, sorry I misunderstood you. I'll post some thoughts in a bit.

[charter]

I teased Oman about the name claim in order to let him know that I got the joke and found it amusing. I don't think the rolename "Creamy Chicken" would tell us anything, since Chicken could either refer to some kind of healing as a reference to chicken soup, hiding as a reference to being chicken, vanilla as a reference to the popularity of the flavor (or, everything tastes like chicken), or mafia if our Mod doesn't like it.

Softclaimed several different roles, then claimed a different flavor and role after all those got taken.

Beyond_Birthday: I haven't attacked anyone yet. What I

am

doing is asking a lot of questions while expressing my opinions on things the town seems interested in. Some of the questions I ask may seem insignificant; I assure you that they are not. The answers to these early, low pressure questions provide a baseline by which we can evaluate the behavior of individuals and groups later in the game.

He's playing very cautiously. I consider playing overly cautiously to be a scumtell, as the general reason for it is to avoid all suspicion. Also, did your evaluation of players based on your early seemingly insignificant questions ever happen?

I'm going to go ahead and

Unvote, Vote: charter

You have six in-game posts, and three of those have been votes. Two of the remaining three have been explanations for your serious votes. Now, your second point against Darla may be valid (I'll wait till her post to decide) but it seems to me that you are fishing for reactions with these votes, which could be scum trying out wagons to find the easy lynch.

Has waited quite a bit after I vote Darla to vote me (after several others have found it suspicious). He posted a few times after I vote Darla before he made this one. Why wait until after it's safe to say my actions are suspicious?

Food: Just because some of us think the wagon on you was silly doesn't mean you can lurk. I need opinions from you about other players.

Aka, do I need to kill you tonight?

That's up to page 11, continuing further now once I get something to eat.

[charter]

I'll believe for now that Kiwi has a killing role, as I expected at least two kills per night in this setup, and a controlled kill is verifiable.

This after Kiwi's out of the blue claim. What caused you to "expect" at least two kills per night? I don't see how you infer that from Kiwi's claim, WK's and your own role without intimate knowledge of the scum's roles. Also, you've been doing setup guessing for longer than strife but still remand him for doing it!

Follows me after I question CWR for his repeated speculation. Then also follows after I and strife suggest that we wait until D3 to lynch Meurrto.

post 530, sthar8 flip flops on massclaim when there's not enough time left before deadline for it to be of any town benefit.

BB claims to jail sthar8 in 586. Both N1 and N2, and there was no N2 kill...

All through day three, you were all for the whole BB jail WK plan, same as I, but since I did it I've 'been going along with the town' as you say.

I think that the fact that I still live shows that most of the players have already independantly determined that the odds of a scum that is not me accidentally trying to kill someone who is protected are greater than or equal to the odds of me being RB'd scum.

I never came to that conclusion, I didn't see anyone else come to it either. It looks like you're trying to suggest something that sounded plausible since some of us were confused a little.

That covers up until today. I think I already responded to sthar8's accusations against me. Anything someone wants me to clarify or anything?

[charter]

I think it's pretty clear sthar8 that no one else is the doc. You really think that I'd, as scum, claim doc day 1 and expect not to get countered and then not lynched at some point in the game? Really?

[charter]

Why wouldn't I pick something reasonably believable and not virtually impossible to continue living while claimed (such as your claim) instead of my instant painting a bulls eye on myself? Fakeclaiming doc DOES NOT make sense, sure you might get the real doc to confess, but a one for one trade is not something that scum usually (if ever) do...

You have outlined it before, but I have to keep correcting you because you're wrong.

[charter]

Just started school again, and I won't have time to address these tonight, but it's coming when I get a chance.

[charter]

Daily post, sorry, still don't have time right now to respond.

[charter]

Ugh, busy weekend.

[charter]

Apologies, I tried to keep this short. If CWR or strife want me to elaborate I will.

Softclaimed several different roles, then claimed a different flavor and role after all those got taken.

Are you suggesting that I softclaimed scum in this quote? Clearly you missed the

actual

breadcrumbing I did, which lends credence to the theory that it was my Day 2 behavior that made you want to kill me.

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't suggest you softclaim scum. I actually meant breadcrumbed, not softclaimed however.

He's playing very cautiously. I consider playing overly cautiously to be a scumtell, as the general reason for it is to avoid all suspicion. Also, did your evaluation of players based on your early seemingly insignificant questions ever happen?

Yeah, it's not like that post was from early day 1 when no one had made any scummy moves yet. And if this is such a scumtell to you, why didn't you bring it up on day 1? You seemed to have no problem attacking anyone

else

for no reason. As for my evaluation of motive, where do you think I got

every suspicion I've expressed in this game

? Just because I say that I use a certain method to scumhunt does not mean I'm promising a gigantic post full of psychoanalysis. And just because I describe one of the tools I use doesn't mean it's the only one.

I bring it up on day 1, "Oh hey look, charter's accusing more people! Lynch him!"
No but you use it to justify your actions before, but now it's apparant that you were just saying it then so other's would be happy and not suspect you.

Has waited quite a bit after I vote Darla to vote me (after several others have found it suspicious). He posted a few times after I vote Darla before he made this one. Why wait until after it's safe to say my actions are suspicious?

I voted you

less than 24 hours

after you voted for her. This is approximately how long it took me to review your actions and decide that they were scummy. And my posts between were addressing other conversations that I was involved with. Futhermore, only

one

person had actually expressed suspicion of that vote, and one other had asked for clarification. I was also waiting for Darla's next post, because I felt that there might be some merit to your "waiting for a case to latch onto" remark, and I was hoping to see her reactions.

Real life time has nothing to do with mafia time. Plenty of people posted suspicion of me in that less than 24 hours, and you made several posts yourself.

Aka, do I need to kill you tonight?

How is it anti-town to want every player to be contributing, and to be transparent with their suspicions?

Kind of like how you wanted Darla to contribute?

Follows me after I question CWR for his repeated speculation.

Now you're just making things up. I'd like to see any evidence you think you have for this, because I remember stressing that I was suspicious of CWR for different reasons, and that yours were very weak. And I'm not sure, but I think my criticism of CWR began on day 1, while yours started on Day 2.

Ahhh, it did. I misread. Apologies.

Then also follows after I and strife suggest that we wait until D3 to lynch Meurrto

What? Are you even reading the same thread?

No.

post 530, sthar8 flip flops on massclaim when there's not enough time left before deadline for it to be of any town benefit.

First, how is this scummy? Second, I disagree that it was too late in the day for town benefit. Massclaim actually took slightly more than one day, if you cut through all the irrelevant objections. We still would have had about a week left in day 2 had we not accidentally lynched Muerrto. Six days should have been enough time to process the claims, especially since we'd already decided on the lynch. Third, I "flip flopped" because I had pointed out the town advantages to avoiding massclaim, and some players foolishly decided to strip us of those advantages. There was no reason

not

to massclaim after the softclaim stupidity, so why would it be scummy to advocate it?

First it outs all power roles, and gives no advantage to the town that day unless we really got our act together fast, so you'd get to act on it first. Yes, that's a flip flop. I disagree that the softclaims negated advantages, some softclaims are better than actual claims. What was scummy was your flip flopping to always advocate the popular idea.

BB claims to jail sthar8 in 586. Both N1 and N2, and there was no N2 kill...

You are reading my posts and strife's, right? Weve discussed this at length.

Ok, I'll make sure never to repeat something again for anyone.

All through day three, you were all for the whole BB jail WK plan, same as I, but since I did it I've 'been going along with the town' as you say.

Tu Quoque? How does agreeing with you once invalidate my claim that you have been playing it safe and following along with strife?

What?

I never came to that conclusion, I didn't see anyone else come to it either. It looks like you're trying to suggest something that sounded plausible since some of us were confused a little.

Again, just because it's not in thread, doesn't mean no one is thinking about it. And if you felt I was so scummy at that point, then why didn't you say anything about it? My conclusion was reasonable from the evidence available, and no one corrected it, which suggests that it was true.

So you can read minds? I don't see how you can know others thought it. Is that why you killed food, so you wouldn't auto lose today?

Why wouldn't I pick something reasonably believable and not virtually impossible to continue living while claimed (such as your claim) instead of my instant painting a bulls eye on myself? Fakeclaiming doc DOES NOT make sense, sure you might get the real doc to confess, but a one for one trade is not something that scum usually (if ever) do...

Why would town leave someone with my claimed power alive? There's no way to positively confirm my role, and it's not helpful to town unless the player doesn't look scummy. "Bulletproof" is

not

one of the roles that will save you if claimed when wagoned. Cop was already taken, and scum will trade one for one if they're trading with a doc, especially if they already think they're caught.

Bulletproof gives you a reason for never being NK'ed. You weren't acting scummier than myself of kiwi, so you were in no danger of being lynched, and after day one, it was quite obvious who was getting lynched. According to you, you probably should have been NK'ed since you're such a great townie.

-Sthar, you say that you don't understand why scum wouldn't have killed me. It is exactly why you say, I did question the doctor claim. Why, if I was still suspicious of it, would the scum kill me? That doesn't make much sense at all.

Ummm, what? Charter might kill anyone who was suspicious of his claim in order to make the final lynch easier by decreasing suspicion on himself. The real question is, why would charter leave you alive knowing you had been suspicious of his claim? I think maybe he forgot that you had been suspicious of the surviving doc thing (supported by his posts, in which he accuses me of being the first to bring it up) or that he felt it wouldn't matter since I have been so suspicious of you that you would be inclined to vote me.

No, believe me, I know that CWR was consistantly the most suspicious of my claim. That's probably why he's still alive.

-I don't see how Charter claiming Doctor would have been a smart idea for a role-blocker to do. The mafia would have been losing more than the town, in my opinion, with a God Father and a Goon left. It seems like an unnecessary risk.

With a cop and vig claimed, the only remaining significant threat to the scum is a doc. If we had had a doc, and said doc had gone unclaimed, scum would be forced to block the cop and hope to get rid of the vig, then hope that the doc would be outed before the rb was lynched. It would, of course, have been optimal to keep the RB hidden, but the town chose him for the next wagon. When their RB fell under suspicion, he needed to get rid of any doc so that his partners would be able to kill the cop on the next night, and be left with only a vig who they couldn't deal with anyway. When he wasn't counterclaimed, he was in a very safe place. The cop would be unlikely to investigate a claimed doc, and no sane vig would shoot at one. If he could keep under the radar, he'd be good at least until LYLO. And look what happened! In short, fakeclaim doc wasn't a dangerous risk, it was a last-ditch attempt to help his buddies. Such a gambit was necessary because of the circumstances; in almost every other situation scum would have still lost their RB, and for less potential gain. No counter was very lucky for charter, and was probably an unexpected bonus.

Or there could be the extremely simple explaination that I am in fact the doctor. I'm suprised you haven't tried to attack me based on my flavor.

-The interaction between Darla and Sthar is noted.

That's fine, but you should keep in mind that I had no control over her actions. Such a strategy could have been intentionally employed by scum in order to implicate me in the event of her death, or it could be a coincidence. I wasn't particularly suspicious of Darla until the end, and I wasn't scummy enough for her to lynch easily, so there was no need to interact with me.

Another stretch by sthar8. You seem to like using a whole lot of speculation in your case against me, not a whole lot of fact. Perhaps it's easier because it allows you to say whatever you want, because 'it's plausible'.

It risks an awful lot to have one scum send in both actions, especially with so many unidentified PR's still in the game.

Actually it's half the risk. No one knew if there was a tracker (or watcher, I always get them confused). If so, having one person send in the kill and RB halves the chance that the scum will get tracked. It actually makes more sense for you to have sent in a kill. Nice try though.

I'm not sure how much of a stretch this argument is, as I know that GF's can't traditionally kill, but neither can RB's, and it's certainly something to think about

Oh, so you did know, just trying to play both sides of the argument, eh?

[charter]

Don't want a strike.

[charter]

I also just realized deadline is in about ten hours, though I doubt the day will get closed then.

[charter]

Don't put words in my mouth. I don't suggest you softclaim scum. I actually meant breadcrumbed, not softclaimed however.

Why would I breadcrumb scum? And if I wasn't, why would I mention scum as a possible role for the flavor you say I was breadcrumbing?

You're pretending to not understand what I'm saying. I said you breadcrumbed a bunch of roles, then claimed another one once you realized that someone else had all those.

I bring it up on day 1, "Oh hey look, charter's accusing more people! Lynch him!"
No but you use it to justify your actions before, but now it's apparant that you were just saying it then so other's would be happy and not suspect you.

How is this apparent? And where did say that I was playing cautiously, which was suspicious, on day 1? And how was suspecting you cautious?

It's apparent because you never did it, when you said you would before. This really isn't a big point against you, so I'm not going to keep going at it.

Real life time has nothing to do with mafia time. Plenty of people posted suspicion of me in that less than 24 hours, and you made several posts yourself.

False. Really, Really False. As I said before, the time was what was required for me to reread your actions and decide that you were scummy. The posts in between required no research, and could be done quickly. Are you honestly suggesting I'm scum because I may have had a busy workday or other plans early in the game?

No, I'm saying that you waited a while in mafia time to make your mind up, after others had given their opinions.

Kind of like how you wanted Darla to contribute?

Exactly. How is this anti-town?

Darla was scum. You not wanting her to contribute reeks of you not wanting your scumbuddy to contribute so they can continue laying low. Do you honestly not see how town wants scum to post as much as possible? It increases the chances of them slipping up, and gives a lot to go on when their role is revealed.

First it outs all power roles, and gives no advantage to the town that day unless we really got our act together fast, so you'd get to act on it first. Yes, that's a flip flop. I disagree that the softclaims negated advantages, some softclaims are better than actual claims. What was scummy was your flip flopping to always advocate the popular idea.

I've already shown how the numbers do not support you here. And please back up your assertions. I've already explained exactly how the softclaims were bad, all you've said was "sometimes they're good." Can you provide another example that supports your idea that I'm "always" flip-flopping?

Twisting my words again. I don't say you're always flip flopping, I say you flip flopped (not always) so that you were always advocating the popular idea on the massclaim issue.

So you can read minds? I don't see how you can know others thought it. Is that why you killed food, so you wouldn't auto lose today?

Horse Laugh. I made no such claim, and my conclusion was reasonable. We've also recently discussed why speculation regarding the last night kill is fruitless.

I disagree your conclusion was reasonable.

Or there could be the extremely simple explaination that I am in fact the doctor. I'm suprised you haven't tried to attack me based on my flavor.

Why would I attack you based on your flavor? It would be foolish to try to outguess the mod's intentions, as I pointed out early on (in fact, in the same quote in which you accuse me of breadcrumbing scum).

Darla was outed based on her flavor. Muerrto could easily have been as well.

Actually it's half the risk. No one knew if there was a tracker (or watcher, I always get them confused). If so, having one person send in the kill and RB halves the chance that the scum will get tracked. It actually makes more sense for you to have sent in a kill. Nice try though.

That's an equal risk, at best, since you couldn't have known there was an RB on the town side either. And since BB blocked me night one, If I were scum we would have known the risk of RB was greater than the risk of tracking.

Come to think of it, how do you explain the RB of kiwi if I am scum and was jailed N1?

Well, I still don't know who killed Oman N1, so how do you know that kiwi was RB'ed N1?

I bolded that so CWR sees it and can change his vote in time. I feel like sthar8 just slipped up bigtime. I haven't seen any proof, or anything more than mere speculation as to what happened N1. We don't know who kiwi targetted N1, or if he targetted anyone at all. To speculate myself and answer your question, scum could have not RB'ed kiwi trying to outguess him and RB'ed someone else who they thought might have had a better role.

Oh, so you did know, just trying to play both sides of the argument, eh?

I don't understand what you mean by this. So I did know what? That GF's can't traditionally kill? Where did I express otherwise? Since we know that you can both kill and RB, I think it's worth considering that Darla could, as well.

I'm talking about the RB sending in the kill and RB so that if there is a tracker, it halves the risk of scum getting caught.

[charter]

What part of kiwi could have killed Oman and scum no NK'ed night one (because you were jailed) do you not understand? It all fits together so nicely.

[charter]

Scum NK no one in order to frame kiwi. I don't know why kiwi killed oman, maybe because he thought Oman would get him lynched the next day like he promised. They both make complete sense. I'm not saying that's the only thing that could have happened, but you just declare it to be wrong.

[charter]

Sthar8, I still don't understand your so called miracle logic post. If you can explain it in simpler terms, perhaps I'd be better suited to giving a response.

[charter]

Charter, what do you have to say for yourself?

What is your reasoning against Sthar being jailed night two?

I protected strife, didn't do any good though. I understand how this looks bad on me, but BB lied when he claimed (post 586 for reference). This is apparrent to me now (because sthar8 is scum). I see how it probably isn't to you, but I suppose it's up to you to get a win for us CWR. Good luck making the right choice.

vote sthar8

[charter]

Good game then sthar8.

[charter]

I lie all the time in mafia games. I've lied several times this game. I abhor LAL because it's incredibly flawed.

[charter]

And that folks is why longer days are good for the town.

I couldn't believe I actually even had a chance, I thought for sure you'd guys would just run me up. When strife said that he thought sthar8 was scum, I was shocked. I would have given anything to have killed CWR rather than food, but alas. I think we had some bad luck in this game, mostly that (not really luck, but I pretty much chose food at random), the investigation on muerrto, and the suprise lynching of muerrto (I think we were well on our way to talking out of that one).

Me and darla had a lengthy conversation on the night before the massclaim. We decided for her to just claim vanilla. We had no idea that there was only one vanilla. I tried telling her that as long as your claim is forceful and presented strongly, people will believe you no matter what you claim, but her whole 'deleting the pm' kind of threw that out the window. We also had a code, in case anything went downhill. When one of us said 'ummmmm' that meant it was time to bus.

Good game everyone, I'd like to play with any of you again.

[charter]

Yeah, I believe we did try and kill you.

[charter]

And we nearly got away with it! If it wasn't for those meddling kids. And their dog.

[charter]

Yeah, I'm still kicking myself for killing you and not CWR.