Mini 621 - Pantsville (Game over!)

[Yosarian2]

vote:clockwork ruse

since he hasn't posted yet.

[Yosarian2]

Vote: Guzame

because he uses too many emoticons.

is a scum tell?

[Yosarian2]

So I come ack, and I see a truly terrible roleclaim.

Yes, but if you believe my innocence.

Why would anyone believe your innocence at this point? All you've done so far is make a semi-roleclaim that, if true, hurts the town and dosn't at all show you to be town. We have absolutly no reason to believe you at this point, about anything.

[Yosarian2]

I don't see anything wrong with a chenhsi vote at this point. Voting a lurker is often a good idea, and he does look kind of scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Hey, Quag. Awesome, now this game'll go somewhere.

Anyway, Quag, right now we're trying to decide if we lynch chenhsi for being a lurkerscum or if we lynch reborn for a scummy-as-hell psudoclaim.

Actually, I just noticed Reborn dosn't have any votes on him. That's not right.

unvote

vote:Reborn

But chenhsi, you really do need to start contributing, now, or else we lynch you. If you had to guess , right now, who do you think is most likely scum?

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, Quag, right now we're trying to decide if we lynch chenhsi for being a lurkerscum or if we lynch reborn for a scummy-as-hell psudoclaim.

Interesting that you've decided to boil down all of our possible actions on Day 1 to these two possibilities.

If it's alright with you, I'd prefer to cast a slightly wider net than that.

Fos: Yosarian 2

Of course those aren't our only choices. But those are the two people I'm trying to pressure right now.

[Yosarian2]

As far as I'm concerned, it went like this -

I roleclaimed Unnightkillable Townie (or something similar)
Everyone told me to shutup, so I did, and since then I've been watching, and waiting for day 2 basically, when I can bring something a little more interesting to the table.

Yeah, that's the problem. A, there's absolutly no good reason for you to claim unnightkillable, since you were under no pressure, had no reason to claim, and the claim only helps the scum if you're telling the truth, and B, it's not unusual for a scum godfather or a SK to be unnightkillable anyway.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, Quag, right now we're trying to decide if we lynch chenhsi for being a lurkerscum or if we lynch reborn for a scummy-as-hell psudoclaim.

Of course those aren't our only choices. But those are the two people I'm trying to pressure right now.

This comment and the explanation for the comment still don't sit right with me. It still sounds to me like you were trying to frame the debate for the Day and reduce the lynch choices down to Chenhsi and reborn.

Unvote: Chenhsi
Vote: Yosarian 2

I have a hard time beleving that you took my post that seriously. Quagmire, a player known to be both a strong player and agressive player, replaces in, and I turn to him and say "Hey, Quag, we're trying to decide if we're goign to lynch the lurker or the guy with the terrible claim", and you think I'm actually seriously trying to argue that we only have two choices or something? You really didn't understand that that was p clearly a way for me to scare the lurker into posting and to increase the pressure on reborn?

fos:Farkshinsoup

. In my experence, when someone tries to take a post like that literally or tries to apply generic scumtells to something like that, it's often a sign of scum who's trying to hard to play "pure townie" and to find excuses to look like he's scumhunting.

[Yosarian2]

I see what you're saying, but wouldn't it be better to leave this at least until Day 2? Someone else may be able to investigate reborn and find out more, or he may be boxed into a corner by then, if he is scum. He's certainly on everyone's radar now.

I don't know what his deal is, but if he is some super power role, I want that to remain in our arsenal, and to remain a secret.

And that's also a terrible, terrible idea, considering that if reborn is scum, he's very likely either godfather or SK, and both of those roles are often cop-proof.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm. So you're the kind of hider that dies if you hide with a mafia member, reborn?

unvote

for now. Not sure I believe you, but I'mn willing to wait a day, and if you're still alive tommorow you can give us a confirmed innocent if you're telling the truth.

[Yosarian2]

Yos still reads a loooot like scum to me. Go with me on this, people.

Yeah, pretty sure no one's going to blindly follow you if you're not willing to make an actual argument, Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

Yos still reads a loooot like scum to me. Go with me on this, people.

Yeah, pretty sure no one's going to blindly follow you if you're not willing to make an actual argument, Lowell.

I think you underestimate my stupidity

On a serious note, I don't really like how your post sounds, it's more of a gut thing than anything else.

Uh? Is there something wrong with me wanting Lowell to actually make a case against me instead of just saying "yos is scum" for no reason?

[Yosarian2]

Like what?

[Yosarian2]

So, Lowell, you going to explain why you claim to suspect me, or what?

[Yosarian2]

And by the way, I don't die if I hide behind scum.

(As far as I know)

Did you check with the mod about this, reborn?

[Yosarian2]

Uh, you can't quote mod pm's, reborn, but you can paraphrase them.

[Yosarian2]

(nods)

Yup, not suprised.

unvote

vote:Lowell

fos:Quagmire

When Lowell comes up scum, Quagmire's next. I have trouble believing that a pro-town Quagmire would try to prevent me from drawing Lowell into conversation with a threat like this:

yos, quit while you're ahead, before I vote for you too

And then to go ahead and vote me when I continue to ask Lowell questions, without even giving Lowell a chance to answer .

[Yosarian2]

Hmmm...no, that's not right. Since I'm basing this mostly on Quagmire's bizzare actions here (Attacking me for trying to draw Lowell out into coversation, then refusing to say why, and then voting me when I continue to ask Lowell question) the correct move is to lynch Quagmire first and then lynch Lowell tommorow when quagmire comes up scum.

unvote

vote:Quagmire

Not that it really matters, since they're obv both scum, but might as well do this the proper way.

[Yosarian2]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

[Yosarian2]

(That was in response to quagmire, obv...simulpost)

[Yosarian2]

Lowell: You're not getting blamed for Quagmire agreeing with you. The suspicious thing here was that Quagmire seemed to be trying to prevent me from even asking you questions.

[Yosarian2]

Then what, exactally, was that "stop it or I'm going to vote for you" post about?

[Yosarian2]

So, are you claiming that you didn't know that I was trying to bait Lowell into the open, or that you didn't realize you were stopping me from doing so with the timing of your attacks, Quagmire? Because that's pretty much the only thing I did during the period where you went from not being suspicious of me at all to the period where you somehow magically became convinced I was scum for reasons you're not explaning.

[Yosarian2]

because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads

fos

. False dilemma.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, while we're waiting for Quag's response...

Damn straight. I'm not about to get blamed for Quag agreeing with me.

Yos, I won't go back right now, but in my initial vote of you I explained that I think you're playing a bit more cautious than when you're town. There was one post in particular that looked opportunistic and odd. Six pages in, that's MORE than enough for a vote.

How have I been "cautious" this game? Especally considering that when you voted me, i only made 5 posts because I was away at Starkidum for that weekend; and of those 5 posts, almost all of them were attacks on someone.

And how was that post "opportunistic", exacatally? It's not like I was saying anything new; I'd already said before that that I was suspicious of Reborn's claim and that I didn't like chenhsi's lurking,

(Also, why does everyone on mafiascum now think they have a meta on me, and why are they all wrong and only attack me with those "Yos isn't acting like Yos" arguments when I'm town? Not really a question, it's just getting really annoying.)

Back to the point, Lowell; why have you not really commented on anything except for me all game?

[Yosarian2]

because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads

fos

. False dilemma.

EXPLAIN. Don't just point the finger, actually take the time to explain this to me. I made a valid point, and you just have the arrogance to dismiss it out of hand. I am not insignificant, because I have a vote, and unless you want it landing on you I'd actually start bothering to explain things and make defenses instead of attacking others.

A false dilemma, basically saying "Either A or B MUST be true" when it's actually quite possible that neither A or B is true; a logical fallacy, and when used like this, a scumtell.

The way I usually use it as a scumtell is in the following situation:

A and B are arguing.

C: "Well, I don't know which one of them is scum, but I'm sure one of them must be!"

This is a scumtell for player C. A and B might really both be town, in which case it's very likely that player C is a scum who's watching from the sidelines, and hoping to egg them on, and to get one of them mislynched today and the other one tommorow (since if "one of them" has to be scum, then when you lynch player A and he comes up town, you would lynch player B the next day, right?)

That's what you just did. "There's no way you are all town butting heads" is a completly false statement in this context, at least unless you have some argument to back it up. No matter how experenced a player is, they will still be wrong fairly often, especally on day 1. So, yes, you saying that right here is a (small) scumtell on your part, and so I noted it, mostly for later reference.

[Yosarian2]

Right, I'm glad you elaborated, so thankyou for that.

There is a massive difference in your scenario.

The current scenario is this

A and B are arguing against C. D comments. The difference is not only mathematical, but you must also take into account the fact that B waggoned on with A. Therefore I just don't know what to think. I'd like to side with you, Yos, because it seems like you're being victimised, but your behaviour is not endearing me to your position.

(shrug) I'm not trying to endear myself to anyone, I'm just trying to find the scum, and to get reactions from people that will make it easier to find the scum.

You're right that with three random people the odds of them all being town is smaller, but comments like like "there's no way they're all town" always make me nervous, especally if there's no real reason to think that. Just because A and B are both voting for C, that does not in any way prove that they're not all town; I see that happen all the time.

Not that I think that's what's happening here (obveously, or I wouldn't be voting Quagmire), but it still makes me uncomfortable.

[Yosarian2]

reborn makes no sense.

post 211 still doesn't seem like the Yos I remember. Lazier, mostly. And more meta.

...what? There's no meta at all in that post, I'm just trying to explain what false dilemma means, and why it's a bad thing. Just basic mafia theory.

[Yosarian2]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

Bull.

First of all, Lowell voted me, and then repeated "Hey, Yos is scum", without saying anything else about the game. He never commented on any of the reborn stuff, he never commented on the lurker wagon, anything. All he said was "Yos is scum". So, I tried to bait him out into the open and get him to explain why he thought I was scum, so I could get a read on him; especally since I was now in the market for a new bandwagon after reborn gave a claim I thought was pretty unlikely to come from a newbie scum in this situation.

Your "a townie should never be concerned about one vote" argument is completly BS. Every townie should always fully respond to every attack, always. Ignoring attacks and hoping they go away is a scum tactic, townies want stuff like that in the open. You're trying to use the "overdefensive" BS meta against me, and it's complete crap.

And yes, part of the reason I kept pressing Lowell for information was because you didn't seem to want me to do that. When you reacted in the way I half-expected you to, I figured out you were protecting Lowell for some reason and voted you.

Everything in this post screams mafia.

...why, because I'm defending myself logically against a bad attack? How is it scummy to do that?

[Yosarian2]

To be honest I don't really see anything wrong with Yosarian asking Lowell to justify himself. It is normally customary to justify a vote when you cast it. It's almost as if Lowell is gambiting, but anyway...

On the other hand, his attitude is pretty sullen at the moment and I've read that that's a scum tell, so I'm willing to go with this for now. I'm not overly convinced, but I'm looking for a conclusion to day 1 of ONE of my games before too long (Day 1 of Newbie 639 is nearing the longest Day 1 on record... *sigh*). And I think we can get some info about Lowell and Quag if they turn out to be wrong about Yos.

unvote vote yos

...

I'm "sullen"? How is being "sullen" a scumtell?

And you're doing that thing AGAIN, where you're assuming that "either Yos is scum or Yos' attackers are scum", and it's still scummy.

[Yosarian2]

That's cool and all, but...why would you do that? Why would you be so concerned and focused on one person voting for you?

(shrug) I always try to respond to attacks against me. I just think that's a more pro-town way to act then ignoring attacks against you is. Only reason I didn't respond to his initial vote was because I was too focued with other issues, like reborn.

And, again, I found it concerning he seemed to be using his "Yos is scum" thing to look like he was participating while not actually commenting on anything else, so I wanted him to explain it more.

It's not a BS meta. He simply said, "hey, yos is scum, follow me." Nobody was going to take him seriously because he didn't have any content, you knew that. Why should anyone take it seriously?
..I don't know, that's why I'm voting for you.

I didn't take it as a serious threat to me or anything (in fact, I think the first response I made to it made it pretty clear I didn't consider his unexplained vote a real threat). I did want him to explain his vote, and was willing to risking brining more attention to his attack against me and willing to therefore put myself into greater danger in order to get a read on him at that point.

And yeah, overdefensive is a BS meta, because everyone should always defend themselves; if someone's attacking you, even if it's just one person and even if it's a minor, unexplained FOS or whatever, I think you should always try to respond to it if you're pro-town; it's the best way to both clear up any misunderstandings, to shoot down any flawed logic a person might be using, and to get a read on the other person based on how he makes his case on you.

PS: I always always always ignore votes on me whenever I'm not being bandwagoned. I simply don't care about it. I have more important things to do than defend myself from one pointless vote.

(shrug) That's great. I almost never ignore votes on me.

That's exactly what you'd say as mafia, that's why.

It might be. It's also exactally what I would say as town.

If someone is attacking me when I'm town, I'm always going to try to figure out why they've come to the incorrect conclusion that I'm scum, and then point out the holes in their logic to them and to the rest of the town. In the process I can also often get a good idea of if the person attacking me is town or scum. Why would I ever NOT want to do that?

[Yosarian2]

Wow, some of you guys are just so presumptuous and arrogant in your attack/defences.

Lowell - Yos = scum, trust me, I don't have to make an argument.
Yos - Lowell makes terrible argument that pisses me off, but I won't do anything about it because that's below me.

Huh? I responded in full to Lowell's arguments.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, I suppose that's true. There's just something about the way you refuse to try and get people on your side. "I'm not going to endear myself to anyone" or whatever. We are supposed to be working together you know. I'm just trying to crack a few skulls as it doesn't seem like people are really trying (although maybe my awesome day 1 roleclaim is partly to blame).

Meh. Trying to get people on your side on day 1 is more of a scum tactic, I think. As town on day one, "gathering information" just seems much more important then "getting people to follow me". In fact, if I was "trying to get you on my side", that would be a legitimate reason to vote me. At this point, I'm much more interested in continuing to poke at people and gage their reactions then at trying to win anyone "over to my side".

[Yosarian2]

Also, Adel, welcome to the game! I've read some of your games, they're pretty awesome.

Thanks!

@Yos2: why was Skruffs nk'd in dynamite mafia? Do you recall the process that led to that decision?

Well, he looked rather pro-town and was therefore not likely to get blown up, and suspected both me and Elvis, and he's a very agressive townie who I would have thought would be likely to just randomally blow up either me or Elvis suddenly, out of the blue, with little or no warning, even if no one else agreed with him. Basically, he seemed like the biggest threat to us in that kind of game at that moment.

Any specific reason you're asking that question in this thread instead of, say, in that post-game discussion or in mafia discussion or something, Adel?

[Yosarian2]

Neah, people don't tend to focus a whole lot on the arguments of dead townies for some reason. Besides, if anything, that would have been a negitive for killing Skruffs; instead of "Adel though these two people were scum", and pressure on both of us for it, it would have been more focus on "Adel thought Yos was scum". But in a game like that with individual kills, the scum just didn't have as much room for WIFOM and mindgames as usual; we basically had to kill first those who were going to kill us later. At least, that was my thinking.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on *this* game, Adel? And again, is there any specific reason you're bringing up that game in this thread? I can think of a couple of different stratigic reasons why you might be doing so, some of which would not reflect well on your alignment in this game.

[Yosarian2]

OMGUS voting later in the game is bad. OMGUS voting instead of a random vote really isn't, IMHO.

That being said, chenhsi, we really need to hear what you think of some of the other stuff that has happened so far this game. It is suspicious that you basiaclly didn't say anything until people started attaching you for lurking, and we need to hear more from you.

[Yosarian2]

Noone vote for ClockworkRuse, there is a lurker vote on him, so he would be hammered unfairly and the decision wouldn't represent the consensus of the town

I don't think Haschel's vote should affect things tbh. I see it as 3 on Clock, 4 on Chenhsi, but sadly that's not how the game works.

Well, that dosn't seem like a good reason to not vote him, though, in and of itself. Do you think ClockworkRuse is likely town, reborn?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, right. DEADLINE EXTENSION PLEASE.

Also,

unvote:Adel

vote:chenhsi

Reborn: I understand what you're saying, but at this point, with such a short deadline, we really need to lynch someone, hopefully someoen we think is scummy. If you think ClockworkRuse is likely to be scum, not voting him just because a lurker is voting for him is not pro-town; the fact that he's slightly easier to lynch then you think he "should' be isn't a reason to not lynch him.

[Yosarian2]

I'd switch to chensi at deadline if it comes to that, but I'd still rather see Clockwork hang.

And I'd switch to Clockwork at deadline, if needed.

With 12 hours until deadline, and us heading towards a no-lynch (which would be quite bad for town), I'm suspicious of

A. Anyone who's not voting in a useful way (which basically means voting one of our top two suspects, unless you've got a better idea)

and

B. Anyone who dosn't request a deadline extension.

Anyone who don't do one of those things, or at least explain why you're not, then I'm going to be looking at you tommorow as possible scum hoping to allow a no-lynch to happen.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, never mind, looks like deadline has been extended. Ok, we've got 3 days. Let's use them well.

First, chenhsi, you're currently at lynch -2, and the closest to lynch. If nothing changes, it's likely you'll be lynched before deadline. Therefore, I would suggest you try and convince us to not lynch you (which might or might not involve a claim, that's up to you) and make a case for who YOU think we should lynch today if not you, and why, and that you do both ASAP. The closer to the deadline we get, the harder it is to end one bandwagon and start another one sucessfully, so if you've got a defense, or if you want to claim, do it soon.

[Yosarian2]

Wow...that is awesome, mod.

We now have exactally 3 days, 10 hours, 39 minutes and 32 seconds until deadline. Heh, very cool website.

[Yosarian2]

If someone could go through and lay out what the case against is Clockwork again, that'd be helpful.

[Yosarian2]

Adel: I'm totally willing to lynch someone for being completly not helpful and lurking in plain sight in this game, irrespective of his behavior in other games. I understand the meta "he's doing it everywhere" defense you're making here, it makes sense, but since he's clearly around and reading this game, a bandwagon should force him to participate and at least show up and defend himself and say who we should lynch instead. Or, if this "you're going to die in 2 1/2 days unless you do something" moment dosn't make him do something, then he's never going to do anything, and we might as well lynch him now rather then ignore him and then try to figure out his alignment in endgame based on zero content.

Although, if you've got a better idea, Adel, I'd be very interested to hear it. Who do you think we should lynch?

[Yosarian2]

Adel: Actually, no, he wouldn't.

Rules
...

10. A lynch will occur at ⁿ/₂ + 1 votes, where n is the number of players currently alive. Day will end with the lynch.
...
12. At a deadline, rule ten will still be in play. If there is not a majority, then nobody will be lynched and night will begin.

If anyone was delibrarly not requesting a deadline extension, they were basically trying to cause a no-lynch instead of a chenshi lynch, if they were trying to do anything at all. So, I'm not really sure that gives the kind of information you're looking for.

[Yosarian2]

Well, no-lynch is inherently scummy. No lynch is just a bad move on day 1. I think wanting a no-lynch is basically always anti-town on day 1.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah...chenhsi, you *do* realize you're about to die here, right? Is there any reason you didn't make any kind of defense or case when you popped into the thread?