Mini 621 - Pantsville (Game over!)

[Yosarian2]

Then what, exactally, was that "stop it or I'm going to vote for you" post about?

[Quagmire]

Then what, exactally, was that "stop it or I'm going to vote for you" post about?

You were starting to be scummy. I was telling you to stop being scummy before I voted for you. That has now morphed into a "you're full out scummy" aura.

[Yosarian2]

So, are you claiming that you didn't know that I was trying to bait Lowell into the open, or that you didn't realize you were stopping me from doing so with the timing of your attacks, Quagmire? Because that's pretty much the only thing I did during the period where you went from not being suspicious of me at all to the period where you somehow magically became convinced I was scum for reasons you're not explaning.

[Quagmire]

So, are you claiming that you didn't know that I was trying to bait Lowell into the open, or that you didn't realize you were stopping me from doing so with the timing of your attacks, Quagmire? Because that's pretty much the only thing I did during the period where you went from not being suspicious of me at all to the period where you somehow magically became convinced I was scum for reasons you're not explaning.

I'll explain them when I get really bored at work. This generally happens in the afternoon. Right now I'm still making my baseball news/views rounds, so I still have stuff to do that isn't mafiascum.net/forum.

Also, yes, I was aware that you were baiting Lowell into the open.

[reborn537]

This is really confusing, because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads. But I actually want to see some arguments.

[Yosarian2]

because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads

fos

. False dilemma.

[Yosarian2]

Anyway, while we're waiting for Quag's response...

Damn straight. I'm not about to get blamed for Quag agreeing with me.

Yos, I won't go back right now, but in my initial vote of you I explained that I think you're playing a bit more cautious than when you're town. There was one post in particular that looked opportunistic and odd. Six pages in, that's MORE than enough for a vote.

How have I been "cautious" this game? Especally considering that when you voted me, i only made 5 posts because I was away at Starkidum for that weekend; and of those 5 posts, almost all of them were attacks on someone.

And how was that post "opportunistic", exacatally? It's not like I was saying anything new; I'd already said before that that I was suspicious of Reborn's claim and that I didn't like chenhsi's lurking,

(Also, why does everyone on mafiascum now think they have a meta on me, and why are they all wrong and only attack me with those "Yos isn't acting like Yos" arguments when I'm town? Not really a question, it's just getting really annoying.)

Back to the point, Lowell; why have you not really commented on anything except for me all game?

[Awesome Pants]

The fifth vote count!

Yosarian2

(3) - Lowell, Farkshinsoup, Quagmire

chenhsi

(2) - reborn537, goborage,

ClockworkRuse

(2) - clammy, Erratus Apathos

Reborn537

(1) - Guzame

goborage

(1) - chenhsi

Guzame

(1) - Haschel Cedricson

Quagmire

(1) - Yosarian2

Not voting

: ClockworkRuse,

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Prodding Clammy.

Scratch that, he's away until the 13th according to his signature. If he doesn't post then, I'll prod him.

[reborn537]

because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads

fos

. False dilemma.

EXPLAIN. Don't just point the finger, actually take the time to explain this to me. I made a valid point, and you just have the arrogance to dismiss it out of hand. I am not insignificant, because I have a vote, and unless you want it landing on you I'd actually start bothering to explain things and make defenses instead of attacking others.

[Yosarian2]

because the three of you are all very experienced (Quag, Yos, Lowell), so I'm sure one of you is right - there's no way you are all town butting heads

fos

. False dilemma.

EXPLAIN. Don't just point the finger, actually take the time to explain this to me. I made a valid point, and you just have the arrogance to dismiss it out of hand. I am not insignificant, because I have a vote, and unless you want it landing on you I'd actually start bothering to explain things and make defenses instead of attacking others.

A false dilemma, basically saying "Either A or B MUST be true" when it's actually quite possible that neither A or B is true; a logical fallacy, and when used like this, a scumtell.

The way I usually use it as a scumtell is in the following situation:

A and B are arguing.

C: "Well, I don't know which one of them is scum, but I'm sure one of them must be!"

This is a scumtell for player C. A and B might really both be town, in which case it's very likely that player C is a scum who's watching from the sidelines, and hoping to egg them on, and to get one of them mislynched today and the other one tommorow (since if "one of them" has to be scum, then when you lynch player A and he comes up town, you would lynch player B the next day, right?)

That's what you just did. "There's no way you are all town butting heads" is a completly false statement in this context, at least unless you have some argument to back it up. No matter how experenced a player is, they will still be wrong fairly often, especally on day 1. So, yes, you saying that right here is a (small) scumtell on your part, and so I noted it, mostly for later reference.

[reborn537]

Right, I'm glad you elaborated, so thankyou for that.

There is a massive difference in your scenario.

The current scenario is this

A and B are arguing against C. D comments. The difference is not only mathematical, but you must also take into account the fact that B waggoned on with A. Therefore I just don't know what to think. I'd like to side with you, Yos, because it seems like you're being victimised, but your behaviour is not endearing me to your position.

[Yosarian2]

Right, I'm glad you elaborated, so thankyou for that.

There is a massive difference in your scenario.

The current scenario is this

A and B are arguing against C. D comments. The difference is not only mathematical, but you must also take into account the fact that B waggoned on with A. Therefore I just don't know what to think. I'd like to side with you, Yos, because it seems like you're being victimised, but your behaviour is not endearing me to your position.

(shrug) I'm not trying to endear myself to anyone, I'm just trying to find the scum, and to get reactions from people that will make it easier to find the scum.

You're right that with three random people the odds of them all being town is smaller, but comments like like "there's no way they're all town" always make me nervous, especally if there's no real reason to think that. Just because A and B are both voting for C, that does not in any way prove that they're not all town; I see that happen all the time.

Not that I think that's what's happening here (obveously, or I wouldn't be voting Quagmire), but it still makes me uncomfortable.

[Lowell]

reborn makes no sense.

post 211 still doesn't seem like the Yos I remember. Lazier, mostly. And more meta.

[Quagmire]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

7)

How have I been "cautious" this game? Especally considering that when you voted me, i only made 5 posts because I was away at Starkidum for that weekend; and of those 5 posts, almost all of them were attacks on someone.

And how was that post "opportunistic", exacatally? It's not like I was saying anything new; I'd already said before that that I was suspicious of Reborn's claim and that I didn't like chenhsi's lurking,

(Also, why does everyone on mafiascum now think they have a meta on me, and why are they all wrong and only attack me with those "Yos isn't acting like Yos" arguments when I'm town? Not really a question, it's just getting really annoying.)

Back to the point, Lowell; why have you not really commented on anything except for me all game?

Everything in this post screams mafia.

[reborn537]

To be honest I don't really see anything wrong with Yosarian asking Lowell to justify himself. It is normally customary to justify a vote when you cast it. It's almost as if Lowell is gambiting, but anyway...

On the other hand, his attitude is pretty sullen at the moment and I've read that that's a scum tell, so I'm willing to go with this for now. I'm not overly convinced, but I'm looking for a conclusion to day 1 of ONE of my games before too long (Day 1 of Newbie 639 is nearing the longest Day 1 on record... *sigh*). And I think we can get some info about Lowell and Quag if they turn out to be wrong about Yos.

unvote vote yos

[Lowell]

214 = bad (setting up future lynches and not taking responsibility for a vote)
213 = good (explaining the brilliant reasoning in my head that I hadn't thought of)

[Lowell]

Also, what does "Lowell is gambiting" mean? This guy makes literally no sense to me.

[Farkshinsoup]

Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.

This is a specious argument. It is perfectly reasonable for a townie to have his radar set off by accusations that are not accompanied by arguments.

Also, have you read the first 4 pages of the game yet? I'm not sure if this was a joke, but if it was, it's pretty lame, and if it wasn't, please get yourself up to speed.

I really don't like this whole yosariscum wagon that's been building. I just don't see it.

Unvote

On the other hand, his attitude is pretty sullen at the moment and I've read that that's a scum tell, so I'm willing to go with this for now.

First, define sullen. Second, how is being sullen a scumtell?

I'm not overly convinced, but I'm looking for a conclusion to day 1 of ONE of my games before too long (Day 1 of Newbie 639 is nearing the longest Day 1 on record... *sigh*). And I think we can get some info about Lowell and Quag if they turn out to be wrong about Yos.

So you're willing to hop on the Yos wagon because, 1- he's sullen, 2-you're impatient to get to Night, 3-who cares if he's scum or town, let's just lynch him up so we can get some info from his lynch?

FoS: reborn

After I did a reread, I really don't like ClockworkRuse. He FoS's Gauzame, then recants and says it was a joke when he gets some flack for it. That's the lie that clammy thinks he he told - lying about the FoS being a joke. Clammy was right.

Vote: ClockworkRuse

[reborn537]

Making a weak case to see who jumps on and then exposing them for the scum they are?

[Lowell]

No. That's retarded. I don't play retarded.

[reborn537]

^^^ Answer to Lowell.

[Yosarian2]

reborn makes no sense.

post 211 still doesn't seem like the Yos I remember. Lazier, mostly. And more meta.

...what? There's no meta at all in that post, I'm just trying to explain what false dilemma means, and why it's a bad thing. Just basic mafia theory.

[Yosarian2]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

Bull.

First of all, Lowell voted me, and then repeated "Hey, Yos is scum", without saying anything else about the game. He never commented on any of the reborn stuff, he never commented on the lurker wagon, anything. All he said was "Yos is scum". So, I tried to bait him out into the open and get him to explain why he thought I was scum, so I could get a read on him; especally since I was now in the market for a new bandwagon after reborn gave a claim I thought was pretty unlikely to come from a newbie scum in this situation.

Your "a townie should never be concerned about one vote" argument is completly BS. Every townie should always fully respond to every attack, always. Ignoring attacks and hoping they go away is a scum tactic, townies want stuff like that in the open. You're trying to use the "overdefensive" BS meta against me, and it's complete crap.

And yes, part of the reason I kept pressing Lowell for information was because you didn't seem to want me to do that. When you reacted in the way I half-expected you to, I figured out you were protecting Lowell for some reason and voted you.

Everything in this post screams mafia.

...why, because I'm defending myself logically against a bad attack? How is it scummy to do that?

[Yosarian2]

To be honest I don't really see anything wrong with Yosarian asking Lowell to justify himself. It is normally customary to justify a vote when you cast it. It's almost as if Lowell is gambiting, but anyway...

On the other hand, his attitude is pretty sullen at the moment and I've read that that's a scum tell, so I'm willing to go with this for now. I'm not overly convinced, but I'm looking for a conclusion to day 1 of ONE of my games before too long (Day 1 of Newbie 639 is nearing the longest Day 1 on record... *sigh*). And I think we can get some info about Lowell and Quag if they turn out to be wrong about Yos.

unvote vote yos

...

I'm "sullen"? How is being "sullen" a scumtell?

And you're doing that thing AGAIN, where you're assuming that "either Yos is scum or Yos' attackers are scum", and it's still scummy.

[Quagmire]

Not at all.

I was pretty obviously trying to bait Lowell out into an argument, into committing to something, so I could get a read on him since he hasn't said much yet that was useful, and I was surprised to see you suddenly jump in and broadside me out of nowhere in response. Not only did you do that, even more interesting was that you actually seemed to be threating to vote me if I didn't stop doing that, and then refused to explain exactally why you were threatening me. So, obv, I kept demanding answers from Lowell, partly because I still want an explination but mostly because I wanted to see how you would react.

This is BS. Lowell has committed to everything in the world by voting for you, you just wanted him to explain his vote.

See, here's how I remember the scenario:
1) Lowell says "hey, yosarian is scum, go with me on this one guys."
2) Yosarian asks for an explanation of the vote, which concerned me a bit. Why in the world would he be concerned with one person who is voting for him just because the person voting for him says, "he's scum guys, follow me?" Certainly not someone who is town-aligned, that's for sure.
3) Yosarian continues being overly concerned with Lowell's vote. He never really asks him to explain his vote just once, but he persists it as its the focal point of every single one of his posts a page or two ago.
4) I realize that yosarian's mafia and vote him.
5) Yosarian OMGUS votes not only Lowell, but me, too.
6) Yosarian makes up this post, totally out of his ass, under the idea that Lowell "didn't commit" to anything. Don't buy it. Also,

Bull.

First of all, Lowell voted me, and then repeated "Hey, Yos is scum", without saying anything else about the game. He never commented on any of the reborn stuff, he never commented on the lurker wagon, anything. All he said was "Yos is scum". So, I tried to bait him out into the open and get him to explain why he thought I was scum, so I could get a read on him; especally since I was now in the market for a new bandwagon after reborn gave a claim I thought was pretty unlikely to come from a newbie scum in this situation.

That's cool and all, but...why would you do that? Why would you be so concerned and focused on one person voting for you?

Your "a townie should never be concerned about one vote" argument is completly BS. Every townie should always fully respond to every attack, always. Ignoring attacks and hoping they go away is a scum tactic, townies want stuff like that in the open. You're trying to use the "overdefensive" BS meta against me, and it's complete crap.

It's not a BS meta. He simply said, "hey, yos is scum, follow me." Nobody was going to take him seriously because he didn't have any content, you knew that. Why should anyone take it seriously?
..I don't know, that's why I'm voting for you.

PS: I always always always ignore votes on me whenever I'm not being bandwagoned. I simply don't care about it. I have more important things to do than defend myself from one pointless vote.

And yes, part of the reason I kept pressing Lowell for information was because you didn't seem to want me to do that. When you reacted in the way I half-expected you to, I figured out you were protecting Lowell for some reason and voted you.

Everything in this post screams mafia.

...why, because I'm defending myself logically against a bad attack? How is it scummy to do that?

That's exactly what you'd say as mafia, that's why.