Micro 407: Jurassic Park Mafia - Game Over
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/confirm
Hey Finn, BBT.-
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VOTE: Pine because dinosaurs... eat... pine?
Anyway I doubt dietary choice is indicative of alignment. I'm a carnivore and town so that line of thought seems pretty iffy.
Edit: I mean it's possible that the scum entirely consists of carnivores, but that'd make me the exception proving the rule so to speak. I'd doubt it though; seems like a reasonable conclusion to make on Grib's part.-
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Sorry for not posting, it's gonna take about 20 mins for me, maybe longer, to put together some reads based off of ISOs. At the moment I don't have much due to wading through all that setup spec. Gonna post reads tomorrow.-
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Jesus, okay, this game looks like a 4 way attack fest. These reads may shift a bit for the next couple days since I wasn't actually there for most of it; furthermore, I'm literally creating my reads as I write this post and ISO people.
Again, sorry for lack of activity; I thought I'd have more time this week and this is my 3rd ongoing game so it goes on the backburner a bit. Here we go:
First of all, likinginsanityfor town. Contributing things and questioning and all that. Gonna skim through a couple of her metas in a sec.
Okay. Crap. I looked over her scum meta and her town meta and this game seems a lot more consistent with scum meta: shorter posts, less logic, more posts consisting of just questioning, more agreeing/disagreeing without really reasoning through things. Overall, she seems to put a lot more into her town games while cruising with agreement/disagreement with scum games. I hate to use meta right now as reasoning, so I'll shelf this until reading through everyone else.
Null on yung, obv reasons.
FinnLaw, I'd like to see your reads on things that don't have to do with setup spec.
^Townread though for the time being due to his last post.
Looking over an ISO of Grib and BBT. I think BBT is unnecessarily tunneling something that wasn't even a slip; I've made assumptions based on intro flavour before, and I would've made the exact same assumption Grib made if I got a herbivore PM. What I don't like is him claiming to not make associative reads on D1, yet talking about buddying and soft-defending. Also not liking the undue aggression.
BBT, can you give me a link to one or two of your scum games? I'm seeing a lot of town games, but I want to see if your playstyle is just a nulltell.
Okay, that said, I wantGrib'sanalysis of the Scripten/Beck/Pine exchange. His play has very much stagnated, and I'd say he's unnecessarily tunneling BBT as well. I'd LIKE to say townread due to what happened at the beginning, but I can't really keep that if he continues to not post much of substance. Null for now.
Next up, ISO of Scripten/Pine/Beck. Now, I read the game, but most of the bickering read as chatter to me, so I'm commenting as I go through this.
I like Scripten's first post of substance quite a bit, but I don't agree with his initial Beck vote.
Okay, Beck is responding really terribly to this; it reads to me like he's trying to fit the evidence to his vote on Scripten, especially with the 'policing' thing.
Alright I really gotta go somewhere, but I'm keeping the ISO tab up and I'll finish when I get back. Here's where I'm stopping for the record. My kneejerk reaction is to read Scripten as town and Beck as scum, and Pine hasn't posted enough by that point for me to get a read.
I'll also ask questions and stuff when I get back. See ya.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Okay, just finished the 3 way ISO.
What's the deal with the Pine wagon?
What's the deal with the Scripten wagon?
insanity, I want you to give some of your reads and your reasoning for them.
Also, I got pinged real bad with Beck's rolefishing. There is absolutely no reason we should go after Scripten in light of what he said; there's still at least one more scum in the game no matter whether we lynch Scripten tonight.
VOTE: Beck
for continuing to try to push Scripten.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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He says he can prove himself town. IF he doesn't, we rope him. Either that or he'll get NK'd anyway.
It's possible, but going after him is pointless right now, and I can understand not wanting to give scum knowledge of what PRs there are.-
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Hmm, okay, this post by Beck seems super town to me. I'm cool with pressuring lurkers as long as we don't quicklynch them.
UNVOTE: Beck
VOTE: yung-
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As of his last post I'm absolutely happy with this lynch.
I don't really have any more analysis, haha.-
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Uh, yes, the reason is because I'm already voting him.
I made that post to make it clear I wasn't unvoting since he was at L-1.-
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Sorry for lurking this weekend, was gonna do some catchup posting tonight but I got distracted and I don't feel like making a lot of shorter posts.
Will post analysis and reads after I wake up.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Alright, reads.
Grib:His defence of hopping on the Scripten wagon was slightly WIFOMy but I'm not getting the wagon on him. He seems like just a medium activity townie who's speaking his mind. He still hasn't answered to one thing though:
Grib, what ARE your reasons for voting Scripten back there?
Beck:I said it before, I really don't like Beck given the ISO of him/Scripten. But pushing a possible PR lynch like this is plain anti-town. Softclaiming is not a scumtell. Scripten isn't even scummy. I'm confident with this vote.
VOTE: Beck
Scripten, like I said, very much reads town. Question though,
Scripten, can you restate the reasons for going after Grib?
BBT's meta seems pretty consistent when it comes to his tone and aggressiveness, but at the very least it looks like he's pushing a town agenda. Not really seeing scum motivation in his Grib-tunneling, and very much not seeing it in the fact that he's been townreading people a lot this game.
I can't say I agree with insanity's case onFinnLaw, because while it may be true that this post was useless, useless =/= scummy. I'm finding it difficult to see FinnLaw purposefully manufacturing that post and fluffing it up, he reads like town trying to consolidate his thoughts on the game.
Got nothin on Pine and Majiffy, obv not willing to lynch a replacement this soon.
insanityis pinging me but I'm having issues explaining it. I think my main issue is her case on FinnLaw; it seems rather opportunistic, and she's been consistently going after people who are being useless rather than scummy. She had a scumread on Beck earlier but nothing came of that, instead making a case on Finn and then wagoning Yung.
FoS: her-
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In post 514, Majiffy wrote:Insanity is probably SK if we have one fyi.
What makes you say that?
In post 515, Grib wrote:Mathdino, I already gave reasons. Or maybe it was a reason, singular. Meh.
No you didn't. You said you had reasons but never expanded. If you already did give reasons, sorry, but could you please restate them? (don't just quote yourself please)-
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In post 290, Grib wrote:In post 255, insanity018 wrote:You could have been just jumping on because it looked like an easy wagon.
Do you think jumping onto what appears to be an easy wagon would be something I'd want to do as scum? Do you think I'd do something that would make literally every single townie look at me and think "wow, he must be jumping on an easy wagon"?
I have actual reasons, don't worry.
Bullshit, no you didn't.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Not yet, Grib, I want to wait for Majiffy to finish up. He said he had a scumread on Beck, so let him hammer.-
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I suck at this. Never mind that. Still, seems a bit far from the deadline to hammer. I'd like a bit more discussion on Finn and insanity, and hopefully enough to get a read on Pine and Majiffy.-
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In post 538, insanity018 wrote:Did you miss where I explained how posting said such uselessness could be beneficial as a scum player?
I have not had a scumread on Beck.
I'm sorry, I meant BBT. My bad. Your reads list had BBT, yung, and Finn as leaning scum.
Anyway, you're right, it would be beneficial; however, my point is just that I don't think Finn was doing that on purpose and I'm having a hard time seeing scum-Finn manufacturing a BS post rather than just using actual analysis.-
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Ignoring the first 3 pages, and ignoring the last 2 pages, can someone please articulate why the hell we want a Grib wagon? I've been waiting on that for pages now...
I do think insanity has a point on the fact that Grib may think Beck is dumb and not scum. I don't think Pine has a point with his willingness to hammer. And I certainly don't think BBT has a point on his apparent 'scumslip' early on.
Or are these the only reasons?-
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I was just about to say that the mod shouldn't need to provide fakeclaims since alignment =/= diet, but I checked my role PM again and I just noticed the flavour actually reasons out why I'm a townie carnivore, which is interesting.
Do you guys wanna do a mass flavourclaim?I have a fleeting suspicion it may help us if it turns out there aren't fakeclaims, and I doubt scum will be able to out PRs with just dinosaur names.-
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UNVOTE: Beck
since there's still time to deadline and BBT may have a point.
BBT, still waiting on reasons for voting Grib.-
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When 5 or 6 people are cool with the idea, I'll claim and we can start popcorning I guess.
Beck, why are you against it?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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My flavour provides a (semi) logical reason for why I'm a carnivore yet town. I think it's possible the more, ah, antagonistic dinosaurs are going to be the scum. Maybe people could paraphrase or quote a bit of their flavour paragraph as well(@mod: if that's not against the rules).
I'll count you in then.-
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Crap, I wish I bolded that. Hope this doesn't fit your definition of questions related to setup.
@Mod, to what extent are we allowed to discuss the flavour in our role PMs? Quoting, paraphrasing, etc.-
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Dammit, never mind, ArcAngel usually gives fakeclaims in her modded games. Legit ones at that. So this is probably pointless.
On the Grib case, your points seem valid but I can definitely see a town-Grib just fed up with Beck and wanting to lynch him ASAP. The hammering point just seems like confbias, IMO. Actually, same with the wagonhopping; that's very much not a scumtell.-
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Wow, okay, the hypocrisy Grib's pointing out is good enough for me. I was under the impression your suspicions were a result of tunneling and aggressiveness, but it looks like there's scum motivation behind BBT's votes.
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee-
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Considering Pine's been tunneling BBT all game, it's pretty likely he'll declare intent to hammer. As such I'm comfortable asking
BBT, care to claim?
Pretty satisfied with ending today, I think all I'd like is more from Majiffy.-
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UNVOTE: BBT
obv reasons.
Think you can be back before the deadline, BBT? Have you read the thread?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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@Mod: I used to be obsessed with dinosaurs as a kid. Birds ARE dinosaurs. They are literally dinosaurs. Pterosaurs are just reptiles that split from dinosaurs in pre to early Triassic. Also, Pteranodon had nowhere near the skeletal structure to pick up a human like in Jurassic Park; those were genetically modified pterosaurs created for entertainment but locked up because they were more dangerous than the park thought. Majiffy inspired me to be a stickler about this. ANYWAY.
Not really much to say on BBT past what Beck and Grib did while I was gone. I'm sold on him.
VOTE: BBT
@Majiffy: Partially out of curiosity, what're your thoughts on the BBT vs Beck tango?
Beck, you can go ahead and declare intent whenever.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Wow okay I'm dumb. BBT was never at L-1, I assumed Pine was voting him.
Atm it looks like it'll just take Pine and insanity to vote and end the day.-
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In post 632, Scripten wrote:I really don't like this wagon on BBT.
[...]
That said, the way Grib presents his case has cast some doubt on my scum read. It's a fairly well-made case, if not one I can get behind, and it seems to come from a town mindset.
Wait... what?-
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Dear god Scripten you better have a good reason you're town tomorrow because in your BBT votepost I had a real flash of "Oh shit he IS scum".
Yeah I think at this point I could get behind a Majiffy wagon. You'd think he'd saysomethingabout the wagons at hand. The SK hunting seems like it could be a nice excuse to mudsling some more.
That said I'm probably still happier with a BBT lynch, partially because it gives us more flip info. Majiffy's slot if town is just lynchbait. Might as well poll people.
Pine, Finn, BBT, insanity, thoughts on a Majiffy wagon?-
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In post 658, Scripten wrote:Can you explain this out? Is it because I changed my mind on a town read?
Because you waffled between whether or not it was a good case until it was clear this lynch was probably happening. It seems like you think BBT's town but don't want to do anything to stop the wagon.
On the bright side, if either BBT or Majiffy turns out to be scum, there's no way Scripten would out his partner, get him lynched, and then fail to deliver the next day.-
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Hey, Grib, remember those violent flashes?
I think I know what you mean...-
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Pine hasn't been site-active in 2.5 days, it's not like he's active-lurking. Idk about insanity. That said
@Mod: Request prod on Pine.-
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Scripten's gonna have a hard time making that case without breaking the ongoing game rule, so let's just leave it at that. More important questions:
Scripten, is BBT town?
If so, who is scum?
If not, who is BBT's partner?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Yeah, you know what, your meta read is good enough for me right now. I played a (short lived) game with BBTown, very similar posting style.
UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Majiffy
I think the town as a whole seems to be more confident with a Majiffy lynch (especially considering how yung got run up) as well.-
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IMO, the very act of lynching Majiffy provides us with wagon analysis and the like. We also have the early yung wagon to look at. Then tomorrow we'll have the NK flip and when Scripten does or doesn't do his thing, we'll have more than enough info from the current conflicts to have some good discussion even if Majiffy flips town.
Okay so I was just about to ask why you weren't voting when I realised that you've been voting him the whole time. Never mind.-
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Here's the thing. Scripten's provided a pretty compelling argument that BBT might be a mislynch. The issue is that A. if Scripten himself is scum, that invalidates the whole thing, and B. BBT seems to enjoy manipulating his meta to screw with meta readers. The fact of the matter is, Beck, if you're right and Scripten's just scum stalling to D2, then we're screwed if we listen to anything he has to say. So let's hold off on the Scripten vs Beck vs Pine vs BBT vs Grib clusterfuck until tomorrow, when we'll have definitive information to help us untangle that.
It's also got to do with the fact that no one in the history of this game has been opposed to lynching Majiffy's slot, since it's kinda useless.-
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In post 706, Pine wrote:I kind of also want BBT and Grib to shut the fuck up. We get it. The other guy's scum. Let us sort out which of you is, or whether you're powerbussing
^This.
I'm still not convinced on the BBT vs Grib bickering, but I really would prefer to get information elsewhere first. The meta analysis of BBT is enough for me to hold off on him, but like I said I'd like Scripten to fulfill his promise before fully believing him on that. And on Grib, well, I don't know. I kind of doubt BBT would've barreled after him since the 2nd page based on a 'scumslip' if they were both scum.
In essence, my opinion of BBT is dependent on how much I trust Scripten, and my opinion of Grib is dependent on my opinion of BBT.
All of which will improve D2. Majiffy's slot I'm much more comfortable lynching; if he's town, which is rather unlikely IMO, at least we don't lynch a possibly valuable opinion.-
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Agree with Grib on this, your post is kind of unfair and tunnely, Pine. Would you prefer he advocate his own lynch? Nothing on this and last page are inconsistent with town-Grib.-
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Wait what? I'm not sure I understand you. Sequence of events:
1. Grib makes a good case on you.
2. Beck agrees with it.
3. I agree with it, vote you.
4. Beck is validated and (finally) understands that you're a more likely lynch than Scripten, votes you.
5. I was under the erroneous impression that you were at L-1, and since Pine was almost certain to hammer you since he's been scumreading you all game, I figured it'd be good for you to claim since you probably were gonna get lynched if Pine was online. I appreciate how you didn't point out that I later realised I was wrong about the VC.
6. I backed off the wagon because Scripten showed why it might be a bad one.
7. You and Grib have your slapfight and blow holes in each other's cases.
8. You find me scummy because Grib's case was near-neutralised AFTER I voted and then unvoted him?
I 'happily accepted' a point because it was a good one. That changed based on the information I was given. I have no idea what you're scumreading.-
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Dude, he conceded those points AFTER all that happened. It was a good case at the time, and a much worse case now. You think I should've been able to instantly see the problems with it and then defend you? That's your job, not mine, sorry.
I don't know, not speaking for Beck. However, that's a pretty common thing to do as town due to emotions. It's called validation. And last I checked, Beck's a pretty emotional player.
Pine had been tunneling youall game. If you were actually at L-1, you're crazy if you don't think Pine would've been fine with hammering. However, I don't know Pine, or whether he's the type that hammers without a claim. So I predicted what his move would be (apparently correctly, since he'd been scumreading you until you and Grib bickered for a page), and suggested that a claim might be a good move just in case.-
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Okay, hang on, I'm getting confused. Just tried to ISO Grib and BBT, and I don't think I'm doing that again. I voted you for 585, the 'raging hypocrite' case. Not for 583, which is what you started slapfighting about (If I'm reading correctly; I really don't have the energy to try to analyse your bickering with Grib, stop walling each other and it'll be easier to think about). Grib's concession doesn't nullify his point, which you seem to think it does.
What nullifies his point in MY eyes is what Scripten said, about how you always pull this as town. I did in fact check the posts Grib quoted. I did not in fact check your meta.
You don't think players do that? Seriously? Okay, click on my name. Then view my topics. ISO the mods of said topics, and jump to the posts that ended D1.
Tell me if you still think players don't do that.-
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It happened 3 times, man. 3 of my last 4 day ones have ended that way.
If you're town, it sounds to me that you're scumreading people for being wrong in your eyes. That's a dangerous thing to do. Had Scripten not chimed in, I'd absolutely have still been voting you, as I still think Grib's case is pretty valid.
Don't put your defence on a pedestal just because people aren't voting you anymore. It wasn'tthatgood. Just because I don't see everything from your point of view doesn't make me scum.
Edit: He conceded that you called Beck anti-town once. That does not mean he conceded the entire case; the point and the hypocrisy he highlighted is still valid. Again, you seem to have a warped impression of how the you vs Grib argument ended. You see the word 'concede' and assume it means you're right.
That said, I am not going to take up Grib's position as the person to bicker with you over those points. I just ask you to understand my train of thought here, even if it may be incorrect.-
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Good, so at least we're on the same page of both being confused. Grib's case, independently and read by itself, is a very valid case. Grib's case at the time, with the information at hand at the time, was a very valid case.
Grib's case with the meta information available now (assuming Scripten's not lying), is much worse.
Again, your read on me is dependent on Grib's case sucking. Of COURSE it sucks in your eyes. I still don't think it does, and I'm not prepared to fully weigh in until I get that info from Scripten.
You'll have to excuse me if I'm still unclear as to what happened between you and Grib. The hypocrisy case involved you voting a townread and saying it was because he was playing antitown, and only afterwards shifting to calling Beck scummy. His concession agrees that you only called him antitown once. It does not say that he concedes the entire point, and I for one don't completely believe your 693 yet. We're arguing about semantics here.
If you find other reasons I'm scum from the rest of my posts, go ahead. But don't take out your "GRIB'S CASE SUCKS OMG" energy out on me. Again, just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean everyone else should.-
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I feel like you've ignored what I've said, so I guess I'll repeat it.
I'm not not-voting you because of what YOU'VE said. I'm not-voting you because of what Scripten said, which nullifies a good portion of Grib's case.
I did take the time to read it at the time. The case checked out. You seem pretty arrogant to think you already refuted his case before he made it, when 4 players have displayed suspicion on you. Your ISO by itself doesn't refute Grib at all.
I didn't explain much because I don't like to make cases that other people have already made unless I'm trying to interrogate somebody. It makes it look like I'm trying to disguise other's reasoning as my own.
Suppose I'm town and Grib's case actually did convince me. How would you have preferred I voted you? Or is the fact that I made the vote at all what proves I'm scum?-
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Check your ISO, jump to the last post you made before this page.
I explained right below it.-
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Lynch Majiffy today, untangle this clusterfuck tomorrow. All we need is for you people to actually fathom being on the same wagon. Ideally these two:
In post 683, Beck wrote:Id be OK with jiffu, but I see no reason to let bbt off the hook
In post 711, Scripten wrote:In post 710, Grib wrote:
Please keep in mind that I've been focusing on BBT, and if I were scum, I could have very easily switched over to Majiffy's wagon to ensure my survival into toMorrow instead of risking people siding with BBT against me, which I can feel happening like an approaching storm.
Not if Majiffy is your scumbuddy. Why do you think people are about to switch sides?
Continuation of this day is just going to result in BBT artificially inflating the pagecount. I've been ready for day to end for 2 or 3 pages now.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Guys, I hate to use this as a reason, but if we all vote our top scumreads we'll have 4 different wagons and no lynch.
BBT is not happening, already maxed out support for that.
Grib is not happening, most you could get for that is probably 2 or 3 people.
Beck is not happening. The only people who want to vote him are literally the least active players.
I'm pretty sure I'm not happening either.
This discussion is just not feasible anymore. Like Pine said, "We get it.The other guyThat guy over there is scum."
We need more information to continue, and we'll have that by tomorrow. Let's end the day.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Since basically everyone in this game seems to be a suspect, we get the NK flip. We also get whatever Scripten is promising that proves him town.
Your lynch doesn't give us much info, correct, but it's better than a NL and I'm far more comfortable lynching your slot than any of the other 7 players.-
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I'm not lynching for info. On the contrary, there's a slew of players I'd lynch if I wanted to go for info.In post 768, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Lynching for info is bad. I thought we had been over this.
In post 769, Majiffy wrote:So what you're telling me is you have absolutely no scum reads and no viable reason to be pushing for my lynch with almost 4 full RL days before deadline
Got a bad feeling about BBT, but Scripten nullifies that with his meta analysis. On the other hand, if Scripten turns out to be scum, I can see BBT being scum. Grib and BBT are likely not powerbussing each other but I can see the scumcase on Grib. Scripten and Beck are either TvS or TvT. Can see Pine/Grib if Grib flips scum. BBT has a dumb argument for Beck being town, seems off to me.
insanity is weird but the rather blinding scumminess of these Powerbus Rangers makes me PoE her as town.
Yeah, I've got reads. But this game has been so focused on bickering that all of them are now associative and mixed up with each other that it's difficult to read people independently.
If you put a gun to my head and told me to guess scum (if you flipped town), it'd be a cross between BBT, Beck, and letting you shoot me. I'm just not comfortable with a lynch on those 5.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Please don't tell me you two are planning an OMGUS wagon on Pine.
This game...-
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In post 784, Majiffy wrote:So you'd rather flatly refuse to bother?
It would make more sense for you to push for a lynch in the 5 so you can better sort the rest.
Yes, because I don't trust myself to sort them out without a flip and not accidentally lynch an active townie. I recognise my faults in scumhunting and one of those is deciding 1v1s that I hadn't already decided before they started fighting. This game, we have like a dozen of those.
No matter what, we get info on Scripten by tomorrow. This, combined with the NK flip, should be enough for me to start working through things.-
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In post 866, Majiffy wrote:Those of you on my wagon or intending to hammer me: Who are you going to look at when I flip town? Cuz that's a reality you're going to have to face.
Dunno, depends on the NK flip and Scripten's result, combined with my nightly reread. I'll also keep in mind your reads if you clearly explain them. Wouldn't be averse to flowcharting a dead town Majiffy.-
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In post 879, Scripten wrote:Also, I have intent to hammer on you, Majiffy. Explaining everything you can about your reads and claiming would be a good idea at this point.
Majiffy is either stalling or didn't read this. I'll give him the latter but Majiffy, your next post really needs to be a response to this.-
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FFS, getting actually tired with this day. This is usually the part where I come back and comment on everyone but honestly, we're going through the same motions and the same conflicts once more. If there's something new to glean from the last few pages, I don't see it. I agree with past-me when I say that we really do need a flip to kickstart this game out of the same bickering.
Scripten, this day should've ended like 3 RL days ago. Majiffy is clearly not willing to give last words or a claim, you can go ahead and hammer.
Edit: Dammit, forgot about FinnLaw.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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UNVOTE:
Majiffy's giving me cold feet as to lynching him. Scripten could've hammered a long time ago; any one of these posts could've been his last words to convince town, and they weren't. That last post was good too.
Without a deadline, I'll reread the thread and decide whether or not to flowchart.-
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*his last words to convince people he was town-
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Holy shit. With that post, no you're not.
VOTE: Beck
Still haven't gotten around to rereading the thread. Generally bad day, pretty sure reading about bickering will exasperate that xD
Will do in next 24 hours.-
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UNVOTE: Beck
Put your vote on him, mine was for pressure. I'll hammer after I've put in as much effort/analysis as I feel comfortable with. Majiffy was correct in that it'd be dumb to just give up and not even consider analysing the Powerbus Rangers.-
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Yes, it's because I want to reread the thread and you stating 'intent to hammer' makes me worried you will before I'm done. Trust me, I'll hammer him when I'm done.-
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Scripten, why are you suddenly unwilling to vote? Did I read your pedit correctly in that you originally voted but deleted that?-
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