Micro 310: Shitty Joke Smalltown II (game over)

[Brian Skies]

1 shot global roleblocker

[Brian Skies]

Need to figure out the double voter asap

I agree!

We can coordinate actions to guarantee a successful cop investigation night 2 by using the global roleblock and the doctor.

This was what I was thinking when I chose my role, although we're working on the assumptions (and hope!) that the three of us are all town.

The plan is just going to work. If someone sabotages it, they get PL'd. Easy stuff.

This and pray that the cop is on our side (because, really, the whole point of this is that guaranteed investigation result).

Anyhow, I don't particularly mind giving up my power to the town for optimal play. You guys decide what you want to do and I'll go with it.

[Brian Skies]

@Tier: It's certainly better than not having info, of course. I just don't like losing useful PRs. And yeah, I know that's inescapable, but still... Anyway, my point was that we should keep in mind that things might not simply work out like we expect them. Which I'm pretty sure everyone knows already, so, whatever. I intended to protect Yiley on N2 anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

I think the idea is that I get to protect everyone on night 1 (which includes you) so that you can protect the cop on night 2.

We'd get two lynches before scum get to kill, is what I'm saying.

But what if they're both mislynches? Wouldn't that put the town in a pretty rough spot by the time the investigation comes around?

1) Let's say we lynch two people with a single vote, but they're both town. Scum get 1 kill on a person with a single vote. With 7 votes in play, a scum double-voter could end the game if the hammerer is town.
2) Let's say we mislynch two people and scum get a kill, and one of the deaths include a double-voter. With 6 votes in play, town would be okay, but it would be mylo.
*Both are worst case scenarios.

And in both situations we would be unsure of the cop's alignment despite him getting a free investigation.

We do have the option of taking two no lynches and possibly only losing one town role (if the doc is town, it would probably be him). This would leave us at what? 9 total votes in play (possibly 8, 10)? With a free investigation to work with?

This is odd. Why would you say you had the same idea, then say it's up to everyone else? A good idea is a good idea.

I DO share the same idea and line of thinking. But this game doesn't revolve around me and what I want to do. I can't force the other players to go through with it.

I'll make it easy for you. http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... 9&sr=posts
Click on that shit and look at her activity just before I voted her.

I usually play in multiple games and sometimes some of my longer games take up more of my time (or I get busy with something else). As a result, I usually end up neglecting some games just to catch up in others (sometimes resulting in a chain of prods or prod dodges).

I haven't looked at her activity log, but it's probably not much different from what I do when I try to balance my game activity.

[Brian Skies]

@brian:
2 no lynches would be quite ridiculous but 1 no lynch might work.

No lynch day 1 is awful
Day 2 I can live with it seeing now that we end up on mylo otherwise

Why can't the no lynch be on Day 1? It seems a little counter-productive to no lynch on Day 2 if you're going to push through a lynch on Day 1 for information and whatnot.

@Brian: Yes, if we're all town, the plan is pretty good, because it means only one night kill and it can't be the cop, so we get at least one investigation. As for your scenario for two mislynches, I already made that point, much earlier. If farside is scum and absta is town, we could be in a very bad position, with two mislynches.

I already know you mentioned those points (and if you want to get technical, Micc was first to point it out and with much more brevity) and recycled the same information for my suggestion.

Is there a reason you're pointing this out for me?

@jklash: Still not sure if I'm getting it. Did you think Brian was a vig? And that PrivateI would try to get him mislynched, if he didn't use his power on N1?

I can see why you would be confused with how jklash got from point A to point B, but don't you think he probably just had a small mental lapse? It's not like he tried to push it anywhere and he clearly realized his mistake immediately after you pointed it out to him.

I am still debating the merits of no-lynching in my head. I think it might make sense in day two following a day one mislynch, but I don't think it is a good option for day one unless we really can't come to a consensus.

Why is it better to no lynch AFTER a lynch instead of before?

[Brian Skies]

Is it normal for you to go with what the masses want? Have you ever played a small town game before?

I've never played in a small town game before (I have played in a micro before), and thought this set-up would be good for working on my mafia theory.

And no. I typically let the town do their thing and I do my thing (which is sometimes just me watching them do their thing while I look at some butterfly that passed me by). Something will eventually interest me and I'll prod at it for a bit and develop my reads.

I hardly consider letting the town decide to be going with the masses. The only two possibilities are a) the town decides to go with the plan that I support (and I've already stated so) or b) the town doesn't want to go through with it, in which case I get to use my ability how I want to (which still might be using it on N1). In either scenario, I get what I want.

@Brain: What makes a no lynch better for day 1 vs day 2?

I don't really think there's a discerning difference (because you wind up with the same overall end result), and stating so is weird to me. Which is why I was asking people about it. But if I had to choose a day to no lynch on, Day 1 makes more sense to me.

1) You no lynch Day 1. Day 2 is a fresh start and you can use a lynch to find scum and information for the investigation on N2.
2) You lynch Day 1 to find scum and information. You no lynch Day 2 because you already decided to have a no lynch. ???? Why? You might as well just continue scum-hunting and lynching people at that point.

@jklash: Still not sure if I'm getting it. Did you think Brian was a vig? And that PrivateI would try to get him mislynched, if he didn't use his power on N1?

I can see why you would be confused with how jklash got from point A to point B, but don't you think he probably just had a small mental lapse? It's not like he tried to push it anywhere and he clearly realized his mistake immediately after you pointed it out to him.

Noted.

Do you disagree? What do you think about it?

Btw @Brian, feel free to state the town intent in answering the question (that Mit presented) for Jklash.

I don't understand what it is you're asking me to do.

As for jklash, it's possible, sure. It's not like I'm calling him scum for it. I just didn't like the way he wasn't explaining clearly where he got the idea of a mislynch (being evasive, as I said). Transparency is pro-town.

Transparency is pro-town. Sure. But I don't really know what you're expecting to get out of it. It's possible he just had a complete mental lapse and realized his mistake. Even if he can't thoroughly explain his thought process, it's something that town are just as likely to do as scum.

And there's nothing he can say that will grant a favorable response except "oh wow, that's some really weird derp logic you got going on." And I find players of both alignments go through those moments.

There you go Mit, proving exactly what I said in the beginning. You'll be less likely to vote the important PRs.

Why does this matter? I thought the idea of this set-up was to use the roles available to try and squeeze out the scum-team.

The day 2 no lynch would only be viable if we mislynched day 1 and were potentially in MyLo. Yiley is the cop, and I am fairly confident that between Tiershift, jklash, and I we can read him accurately. Getting to that night 2 cop investigation without losing excessive town players could be the difference in the game.

Okay. This makes sense.

it's odd but I need to see how much experience he has before I call it scummy

I have 20+ games, two of which are scum-games. But my town play is a bit erratic.

Anyhow, I don't really know you guys and meta-diving isn't my thing (I have done it, but it's a last resort).

[Brian Skies]

I offically believe Brain is scum this game.

vote: Brian Skies

He admits to not going with the masses but wants to please the town on something he already stated he would do. Yeah those things don't add up. Pleasing town is not making waves. You have a thought and know it's best you use it.

Like, I'm really not understanding why you're on a completely different wavelength from me. You think I'm sitting here offering my ability up to the town to please people. I'm not. I offered up my ability to see if town would go with a plan I'm okay with and think would benefit us. If they said no, then so be it. At the very least, I could generate reactions and see how others would respond to it. Yours, for example, is extremely scummy for trying to spin this narrative of how a town-me would or wouldn't act with regards to my role.

Why would you, as town, answer a question aimed at someone else? To me it looked like you were defending Jklash and I don't see why town-you would.

Why can't you see town doing this, or more specifically, a town-me doing this? I don't think I have any meta with you (because, quite frankly, I don't even know you), and I assure you I've done both before.

[Brian Skies]

Rows and Columns - I end up chainsawing ER by page 4 (the first part of that post is set-up spec, but I vote Kaze in defense of ER) and white-knighting Nacho before the end of Day 1. We were all town.
WSoB - I subtly interject myself between Ald and Sakura. I call one of Sakura's posts scummy in my 1v1 with Pie, but I didn't actually think Sakura was scum. All four of us were town. I also defended Ank early on with a weak RVS townread, but I'd rather not talk about my failures. Not to mention my defense of town-JS at the end of Day 1.
O-Chem -I defend Hermy from the evil scum that is TIP. I also destroy all towncred I had starting with this post and become everyone's favorite scumread before the end (even though I was right).
Attack on Titan - Not only do I defend Bert as town for his miller claim, but I interject myself into Bro's line of questioning. The game was eaten by tigers, but Displaced replaced into my slot and gloriously KO'ed Bro-scum in MYLO.


Anyhow, regardless of whether or not you used meta, you still didn't explain to me why town wouldn't do what I just did? Why can't town defend other players or interject themselves into other people's lines of questioning?

[Brian Skies]

Well hello mr. OMGUS how are you today.

Feeling pretty good today. You?

Also, in that Attack on Titan game I linked (that was unfortunately eaten by tigers), Falcon-scum told his buddies NOT to tunnel onto me because of the way I read people off of OMGUS.

Appeasing

Admits he doesn't typically follow what the town does and does his own thing.
One doesn't not explain the other.

Honestly, you have this one set idea that I did what I did out of appeasement and I'm not interested in arguing you over it.

So far, micc and brian don't really appease me,

I didn't realize I was supposed to appease you.

Tier is just terribly scummy at this point as well because he's only seemed to find one person scummy (private) who hasn't even been posting anything.

As great as your case against Tier sounds on paper, Private is pretty scummy. He hasn't really posted or contributed in any beneficial way, and the only reason why I haven't considered him thus far is because the only other time I saw him, he replaced into a town-newbie slot, made a grand total of 1 post, and disappeared. I think it's much more likely he flakes than anything.

I hope you see the irony of a hammerer and a treestump present

I must have missed it, what's the irony?

Because it doesn't help town-you in any way unless the person you are defending is a really strong town read. When you answer their questions for them you could potentially be helping scum. The optimal play would be to let them answer questions aimed at them so everyone can see how they respond and thus be able to form a read on them.

To me this is really obvious, hence why I asked you to give a reason why you as town would stop a line of questioning.

I understand the first part, and I agree with you wholly. Except that your line of questioning reached a point where I wasn't sure where you were going with all of it. Like I said, Jklash looked like he just had a derp moment and I don't know what kind of response you were expecting to receive out of it. And his response to you felt honest and genuine, even if it was filled with incomprehensible moon-logic.

You've got so much experience yet you still throw the OMGUS call on Brian?

Well, no matter how you look at it, I DID technically OMGUS her.

Unvote: Brian
For now.

Implies I'm still a scumread. Did anything change for you? If not, why the unvote?

No real reason other then as I stated he wants to appease people but states that he typically does his own things. One thought does not match with the other thought.

No, I called you scummy because your push onto me feels contrived. Nothing I did was out of appeasement but you continue to push it that way.

And when I said I do my own thing, it means I typically do what I want. Like I said, I offered my role up to the town to see if they were okay with the plan of me using my ability N1 and the doc protecting the cop N2 to allow for a guaranteed investigation. It wasn't about appeasing the town because what I wanted to see was whether or not the town wanted the doc to follow through on the plan as well.

Okay did a re-read. I'm feeling quite confident in this strat right here:
VOTE: Tier

@Yiley - Investigate Micc please.

Care to elaborate on this strategy?

And Yiley can't check until N2.

Brian hasn't done any new shit so explain what changed about him.

He was exposed to the glory that is my town game.

Its not as bad as I originally thought, but it still looks screwy.

Once again, the glory that is my town game. How many people have you seen start off the first two days of a mini as the universal obvscum read and still find a way to get the hammer in 3p lylo?

[Brian Skies]

Am I supposed to understand that reference? Right now all it is doing is confusing me.

No, I'm just poking fun at my own meta.

The hammerer basically is a living treestump; their vote doesn't matter.

Got anything more to convince me this is your town game other than just saying so?

Their vote does matter and it's only negative utility if there's a strong opposing wagon to whatever wagon the hammerer isn't on or Lylo.

And no. I only have a limited capacity to convince people I'm town. Either you believe me or you don't. And this early in the game, I don't really have much going for me, now do I?

Question: how many people discussed the idea of having you use your role before you posted?

I'm phone posting currently, which is a pain in the ass to begin with.
I believe at least 4 out of 6 already agreed to have brain use his ability, so I don't get the point of asking if that is what the town wants ill do it.

Does your question matter? I was mostly skimming the early game and saw a bunch of set-up spec, so I commented on it. It's not like I was counting the number of players that agreed with it. Also, I don't understand the significance of your ratio. There are 8 other players than me, not 6 (and 4 is barely half), and I'd very much prefer to develop as many reads as possible.

If we get to LyLo with townabsta alive, it's insta-over.

If we get to MyLo with townabsta alive, it's not until town votes.

So the RB should be used I think and preferably before brian is dead, that'd be N1.

I'm confused how Absta's existence implies that I have to use my ability N1.

Especially considering you're now pushing for a lynch on the cop.

Your reads look fake because they change despite the person hardly posting in between.

Or he accused me of being scum for something, I disproved his statement with meta, and his read changed based on said meta. As well as the other things Absta has already mentioned. But the first part could have been implied in thread and you completely ignored it. Why?

You are an automatic vote for scum in MyLo.

What do you mean by this statement (because I'm reading it two different ways)?

And you shouldn't be automatically voting for people in Mylo. It's called Mylo for a reason.

All I see is a lot of effort to keep the lynch off Yiley, who he doesn't seem to want to go anywhere near.

Do you think town would be more nervous about potentially mislynching a known investigative role?

[Brian Skies]

Prod dodge.

Will post in a bit.

[Brian Skies]

@Brian: Do you agree to use your power on N1, or do you believe that it would be best to use it later? Will your answer change depending on today's lynch?

I will use my ability based on how I feel it can best be used towards my wincon. I think using it N1 is most beneficial for keeping the cop alive and not lynching Absta for purely PL purposes (as well as for the sake of using it before I die).

I don't know if my answer will change based on today's lynch because the only reason I would use it on a different day is if a) the even-night cop is no longer around to be protected (in which case I can now use my ability on even nights) and b) I feel the ability can be better used later on in the game.

Using it Night 1 still looks like a logical choice to me.

1. Lynch absta

I'm not interested in lynching somebody I think is town just because their role is deemed negative utility. Absta's posting reads townish and it looks like he's seriously trying to find scum. I'd rather try and find the scum-team before he becomes a liability than just lynching him for PL purposes. However, I understand the concern over the role but I'd rather deal with it if it actually becomes an issue (Day 2) than not trying to lynch scum today.

2. Lynch a player who isn't absta or Farside
3. Lynch Farside

Why do you want to lynch Farside? And why isn't Yiley mentioned in your list considering you want to lynch him today?

I'm not quite sure how this question relates, but yes I could understand why town would be nervous about potentially mislynching a known investigative role. No, I don't think that's why absta was shying away from considering Yiley as possible scum. I was linking them together as a possible scumteam in my head.

Either way it is pretty clear that absta wasn't simply shying away from considering Yiley for scum because of his role as a cop. If that was the case absta would not have four other players as higher scum reads.

I asked that question because Yiley is an investigative role and I was wondering if you think it could have been a reason for Absta to shy away from the lynch instead of having to be Yiley's scumbuddy.

The bold part doesn't make sense to me. What does Absta having four higher scum reads have anything to do with Absta not simply shying away from considering Yiley? Absta had Yiley as a null-read so it makes sense Absta would be a little concerned.

I also think you make a fine investigation target because you're the one person that's guaranteed to live through N2 with our plan.



----------
I like Farside's recent posts. Her feelings about the Absta lynch resonate with me quite a bit.

Also, I'm not reading the numbers you guys keep throwing in the thread. They're confusing and can be manipulated.

I stated in my 'case' on Tier.

I'm not interested in Tier right now. I don't find him particularly scummy and I don't think your case on him holds any water.

To be completely honest, I'd rather lynch PrivateI or Yiley, at this point. Both have lurked the game away and I'm not seeing much in the way of scumminess from the other players, yet.

In fact, PrivateI has basically only really talked about Yiley. As farside pointed out, he hasn't given any scumreads. He's been sitting on his RV and his biggest contributions were to 1) sort of suggest a no-lynch and 2) defend Yiley, without even giving a read on him, until much later (111 posts and 5 days later, to be precise).

So, my preferential lynch order is PrivateI > Yiley > absta (only for strategic purposes) > anyone else.

I like this. Even if PrivateI would flip town, we would at worst lose a vote. But we'd still have a town voice. I don't even know if anyone is townreading PrivateI right now, but if we were to compromise lynch, this would be my choice.

Also, I'm opposed to PL'ing Absta unless we have to.

I'm still nervous about lynching the cop, but he has yet to come in and town-post despite telling us he would come in and do it (and none of his posting thus far looks town). I'm okay with moving over to his wagon if I have to.

VOTE: PrivateI

[Brian Skies]

I missed a post.

Ayway, I'm not getting on board with a PrivateI lynch, since that would really be only because he's lurking (which is not alignment indicative). In yiley's case, the lurking and refusing to get involved ís alignment indicative.
Pri=lurker yiley=scum.

I thought you guys said his lurking wasn't alignment indicative.

What's your read on PrivateI?

[Brian Skies]

I want a definitive stance from Brian regarding the roleblock before that happens. If day closes before he comes in I am going to assume that means he has decided to use it, and I fully intend to hold him to that.

Just stating this would have been perfectly fine and I would have followed through on it.

But since you asked:
1) If we lynch Yiley and he flips town, I will be using my roleblock tonight for the sole purpose of denying a scumkill. I've been running the numbers through my head and I can't see a situation where it wouldn't be wisest to PL Absta.
2) If we lynch Yiley and he flips scum, I won't be using my roleblock and will be holding onto it in case a better situation comes up (such as preventing a mylo situation by denying scum a NK).
3) If we lynch someone other than Yiley, I will be using my roleblock tonight for the sole purpose of denying a scumkill and possibly getting an investigation N2 (in the unlikely event the Yiley slot becomes townish and we decide to follow through on that).

[Brian Skies]

If you are town, you should use your power tonight, to make the numbers work in our favour in the long run. Also, if you don't, you may never get to use it and that doesn't help town.

Alright, I'll use it tonight for the sole purpose of denying a scumkill regardless of the lynch. I'd rather my ability benefit the town than not at all.

[Brian Skies]

Oh, wait. PrivateI got back and put him at L-1 and said virtually nothing else. Yeah, this PrivateI lynch is happening tomorrow if Brian uses his power.

I thought PI was first on your lynch order.

[Brian Skies]

Only if N counts that as a vote.

[Brian Skies]

At first I was confused about the question order, but I understand now. I'll wait for jklash before answering.

[Brian Skies]

I didn't try and send a message. I thought I didn't need to because we agreed to use the RB.

You had one job.

One job

. And that was to keep me in check.

I did use my ability last night, though.

[Brian Skies]

prod dodge


post tomorrow

[Brian Skies]

Reading.

[Brian Skies]

I'm only halfway through on my re-read. I'll finish catching up tomorrow. Gotta wake up early.

[Brian Skies]

I think it's a possibility he is lynchbait. He lurked bad and made a questionable hammer, clearly he is going to be a target for scum. Yiley lurked and was pretty much terrible but he still flipped town. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that PrivateI is town.

I agree here. After reading through, PrivateI seemed slightly confused about the Yiley suspicion and even said that his experience with Yiley on another forum was telling him that Yiley's inactivity here wasn't alignment indicative. His hammer yesterday looked more like a deadline compromise/possible survivalism than anything and I don't see why scum would want to bring attention to themselves with a fake hammer. That and he seems to completely lack survivalism here.

I mean, who else was going to get lynched that day? PrivateI? Maybe tier? And I find it odd that people are calling for his head when several people advocated the Yiley lynch for most of the day.

I'm also curious why people are scum-reading PrivateI for hammering Yiley but not Jklash who found his way onto the wagon without much reason for a 180-flippped Yiley read (which is also something I'd like Jklash to talk about).

I don't care if doesn't have a net gain. It doesn't have a net loss. Am I the only one who understands that?

I understand this, but I don't think Absta is scum. I don't see the same problem with his reads as you do as I can see his trajectories. And the way he seems to be poking most of the playerslist and trying to figure out people's alignments seems town-motivated.

@Micc: But I explained why there is a net loss. If farside is scum, lynching absta now means we automatically lose if the next lynch is a mislynch. No more chances. On the other hand, if we do that lynch first and it does turn out to be a mislynch, we could still have a chance to survive, if absta is still around. That's the net loss of lynching absta now.

I don't understand this. Micc is arguing there's no net loss because we can get a free flip on Absta and you're counterarguing there's a net loss if we mislynch tomorrow? How do we have a chance to survive if Absta is still around and PrivateI turns out to be a mislynch?

Yiley is always active. Him lurking means he doesn't want to get involved. But hey, I was wrong.

I'm curious as to how much of Yiley's meta you took a look through before coming to this conclusion. I took a quick gander and it seemed to me that he was decently active in Pick Your Poison as scum before being replaced by N.

Being opposed to a wagon and then jumping on it as it's getting traction is a scumtell actually

He hammered it though. And don't you think scum would be more aware of how many votes were on a wagon as it was gaining steam?

Also, following this description of PrivateI's jump onto the wagon, what is your opinion of Jklash?

Private why did you vote yiley? What made him scummy?

I want a response to this.

As for Micc he has asked shitty questions that are not aligment driven and wants to push a lynch a player based on game mechanics and has only discussed on scum suspect thus far. What makes him town in your oppinion?

I'm a little concerned about Micc because I feel like his play here is very manipulative. However, the feeling I get from his posts is that he genuinely believes in what he's saying.

Fasinating that yiley got called for that but not private.

Pretty sure it was "Yiley's inactivity is alignment indicative," "PrivateI's is not."

Not sure if this is the exact reference I was thinking of, but somehow I got the impression you preferred to pick the target and push for the mislynch wholeheartedly. That seems to be a decent description of your Day1 here.

Really? I don't get the feeling that he's getting to pick his preferred targets, but his targets do seem to match those I think scum would think as easy mislynches.

Wth is this? Why are you re-reading the whole game? All you've been doing lately is prod dodging. Just post your reads and we'll move on from there.

Because it's something I usually do? It's how I develop my reads. I'm just a slower reader than most.

I already explained why we need to keep absta alive today and concentrate on finding scum

I'm still confused as to why you think this.

[Brian Skies]

@Brian: I have explained this already...

Suppose we lynch absta today for strategic reasons. Then, say we mislynch. Now, say farside is scum (worst case scenario). Then there are 6 votes left, scum controls 3, town controls 3. Scum cannot be lynched, so they win. The game is automatically over.

Now suppose we don't waste a day lynching absta. Say we mislynch today and farside is scum (same scenario as above). Then there are 7 votes left, scum controls 4, but town also controls 4. If the 3 remaining town players are quicker than the 2 scum players, they could still get a scum lynch and survive.

In both these cases, we only have one mislynch. An absta lynch doesn't save us a day, because it also takes a day away already. The absta flip itself is irrelevant, if we are only doing it for the purpose of vote control.
Furthermore, if farside is town, things are even better for us, so we really don't need to lynch absta in that situation.

There are 9 votes in play today. If we follow the scenario in bold and lynch Absta today, it's likely there will be 7 votes in play tomorrow (with a maximum of 3 being controlled by scum). If we mislynch tomorrow, then there's a possibility we just lose.

The same thing occurs in the second scenario, except if PrivateI is town and Farside is scum, there's a possibility she can attempt a quick victory tomorrow.

[Brian Skies]

Its more of the fact that he didn't waver from Yiley one bit. He was all over the place as town in our last game.

I agree that this is concerning. He seemed perfectly fine policy lynching Yiley, whereas most of the other players were concerned over the possibility Yiley could be town.

[Brian Skies]

BrainK

Can you not call me this? It's irritating.

Who are your current scum reads and why?

Right now, mostly tier. I think I said it before, but I don't really like his targets from Day 1. And joining Micc's wagon on the cop because he was "lurking" pings me in a bad way. Surely there were other people with the same issue (PI, me), and the complete lack of paranoia for potentially mislynching a cop is unsettling. Also, I think I remember asking Tier about how much of Yiley's meta he's looked at.

After tier, I'm thinking one of Jklash or PI. Both of them look like lynchbait though, so I'm not completely sure if they're just bad town or bad scum.

I've been waffling a bit on Micc. Micc's play so far has felt manipulative in the way he's been trying to use the set-up to get lynches he wants. Except he spearheaded that lynch on Yiley, and I don't think scum would be bold enough to make a strong move like that early on. He also seems pretty intent on lynching Absta because he thinks it would be the best move for town (free flip and getting rid of negative utility), and I can see a townie really trying to push for something like that.

Everyone else I'm reading as some sort of towns.

This guy is third for fewest posts in the game

I'm not the type of person to have a high post count in my games. Usually when it's high, it's because I've managed to outlive a good portion of the playerslist (or a good portion of the playerslist is doing jack all and I have to get my hands dirty for it to go anywhere).

He IS the optimal mislynch for town. If we are going to mislynch, we are way better off mislynching him than anyone else. Lynching town-Absta has the same affect on the endgame situation as lynching scum.

I'm conflicted. While I acknowledge what you're trying to say and how it seems to be town-motivated, I'm still not reading Absta as scum. If you think Absta is scum, who do you think his partner would be?

[Brian Skies]

Taking a look at this tomorrow.

[Brian Skies]

Going to wait for AJ's catch-up.

[Brian Skies]

I'm not going to assume that he's a noob town like Yiley unless someone gives a good reason why I should.

Lol. What's the differentiating factor for this? Just in terms of join date, both Jklash and PI are newer players than Yiley.

@Tier: So, you're saying Private is too scummy to be scum?

Yeap, always works.

This is a fallacy.

I don't usually do theory but I keep thinking about Private here. Town Private = passoniate.
Scum Private typically pretty vocal.

This private is neither, but the lynch of the cop and the bases of why does not bode well. Usually I would expect a player that just did something pretty bad to go, my bad or that was pretty stupid. This game nothing from Private other then absta is being looked at as scum so vote.
There is no drive I would expect from someone town who fucked up.
Would town be appathic?

Eh, I've been mislynched for being apathetic in the past so I do think it's a possibility. And I've also seen JS get mislynched for it. So it's not something I would associate with just one alignment.

And like I said before, it looked more like PI was compromising on his vote, not necessarily being wrong on his Yiley read. The way I see it, the deadline was moving towards either Yiley getting lynched or himself. It's not like Yiley was this shining beacon of pure obvtown. Sure, there might be a hint of survivalism there, but nothing I find as terribly scummy as people were making it out to be.

I'm also confused as to why all the pressure was being put onto PI for making that vote in the first place in comparison to Jklash's sudden vote switch onto the Yiley wagon. Nobody has really delved much into Jklash's thoughts on the matter and Jklash never responded to me before he replaced out.

There are a few things about micc that I don't like.
Firstly, there's the lack of true scumhunting. At the beginning of day 1, there's a few useless questions. He was just convinced yiley was scum day 1 (without even the littlest bit of paranoia) and that was that. Now he just pushes the absta PL without trying to figure out who the scum is. He now tries to justify this attack by pointing out how scummy absta is. While he isn't trying to put things into perspective, really trying to see who is town.

To add to that, he compeltely seems to have forgotten absta's reads were fake. That was another thing I didn't like, calling absta's reads fake. They read pretty genuine to me.

Then, there's the fact that he's manipulating me and I wrote up a paragraph about this and it was all incomprehensive so I deleted it. Just trust me here.

1/10 I should stop doing cases

Anyway tldr: vote micc since he's not looking for scum instead manipulating others to vote
VOTE: micc

While I do think there could be some merit here, I'm still not getting a whole lot of townvibes from it. You say Micc has been manipulating you. How? Most of what I've seen is Micc pushing lynches he feels are optimal. I don't remember him asking for you to sheep him or anything of the sort (well, maybe, my memory is a little fuzzy and I should check up on this).

While I do have some suspicions on both Tier and Micc, I don't think the two can be scum together. This push from Tier onto Micc is weird if that were the case and I'm having trouble seeing both scum pushing the Yiley wagon like they did on Day 1. It would be extremely bold.

@Tier: jklash is both town and in the scumpool? Also, why does Brian not going for the Private vote make him town? If anything, that's really the one thing that makes me a bit suspicious of Brian, since he was on PrivateI's wagon, at the end of D1.

I was on the Private wagon because I was afraid Yiley could still be town (and I still wanted that investigation result if that were the case). PI was a person I was concerned about and thought would make a decent compromise lynch based on role at the time.

*I'm still about two pages behind, but I need to go take an exam. I'll be back soonish.

[Brian Skies]

Brain: multiple thoughts about players. He has thoughts he shares (I can link the post later if need be) and it has a flow that you can follow.

Not sure what you're insinuating about me in this line.

I guess we lynch from the pool of players who seem to be totally against lynching Absta, which would be Tiershift and Mitillos.

I'm pretty sure I've been as adamantly against lynching Absta as Mit has. And what about Mit has rubbed you the wrong way (other than being completely against your Absta PL)?

Removed from my town pile.

Since when have I been a townread? I thought I was in the null to scum range for you.

I was busy the last few days. Had to devote my attention to other places. And had an exam today that I spent all of Monday studying for. This game was put tentatively on the back burner.

@Micc

- I looked at one of Yiley's town games and he played roughly the same there as he is here. So I don't feel comfortable calling him scum for his

completely fucking shit

playstyle.
As for the rest of you. You look increasingly scummy with every post you make. Your whole scum hunting seems fake, especially the questions aimed at farside. Tier is just terribly scummy at this point as well because he's only seemed to find one person scummy (private) who hasn't even been posting anything. It seems to me that he's scared of calling people scummy so he doesn't have to commit. That explains his vote on private and why he uses terms like "so that sucks" to describe scummy play.

I can see myself lynching you at the end of the day at this point though.

I'm traveling slow because college work trumps all on Tuesday/Thursday but I'll get an easy ten pages today. I think. Here's the first scum this game, Absta... most likely coupled with brian, at least by this post. Brian's lurking/general disinterest in actual discussion was disheartening to say the least, but absta commits a few flaws here I recognize from mafia theory...

First off, the complete bullshit dis. The whole town is "scummy" and Yiley has a "shit playstyle". Alright, so we've covered all the ground for the "I'm superior by your lack of ability" attitude in two lines? Calls tier scum on, from looking back, complete lies. More importantly, Tier had been the most recent speaker in most of the previous posts NOT made by Absta, which should require a first person interaction AFTER the introduction. However, Absta only talks about Tier. The issue being scum will talk ABOUT and AROUND their opponents, even when engaged in discussion. 189 was tier's general post, 190 Absta states that "This is why tier is prob scum", not addressing a specific part of the post but the whole post. Tier responds again, but Absta's next post (the one quoted) still does not address tier in first person.

So Absta, care to explain? Yes, it's a tad far back but you did make the comments. You should still remember what you meant and please specify something... Anything. Specifically, what you saw that made everyone else "increasingly scummy" and how that post (189 for your reference) made tier scum.

Without further ado,

Unvote

:

Vote: Absta

@Brian, please don't wait... I might not finish today, and if where I am is any indication (you got prodded, came back and posted on irrelevance to people's play), you've been lurking hard. The more I see of you, the better... Posting something worth while reading so I don't get the impulse "Scum ignoring game" reaction would be nice.

I remember this post from Absta. I told him I didn't think it held any water.

I'm still have the same general opinion regarding the parts about Tier's choice of language. But as the game goes on, I agree with Absta that it seems as though Tier has been attacking people that seem to be easier to scumread. Except he's shown a lack of interest in your slot.

I also didn't care how much you were able to catch up before deadline. I just noticed Jklash got replaced and didn't want to write the words "prod dodge" at the time.

Showing arrogance here when no one comes at him for his arrogance is just as much him obtaining an untouchable position as him actually posting well from a psychological standpoint. The reason being is no one ever challenged him when he defaced the whole lot of you so easily.

In other words, this is a basic (Very basic... Doesn't even WORK with most groups) tactic by scum to establish themselves as a 'superior component' of the town. The 'untouchable' status is very real, I just pulled it on tier last game. Not only that, his play is dramatically different from last game where he was an SK. I'm good enough to notice his positive play and compare it to his SK play, recognizing an enormous difference.

I don't understand why I should have challenged him on him being arrogant. I deal with that shit in my games on a regular basis. And I don't think it's ever been alignment indicative.

I also don't remember Absta putting himself down as untouchable status. If he has, please point it out.

Your argument that Absta has reached a kind of 'untouchable status' because no one has decided to push him for his arrogance makes no sense to me. This is something that is based on our play, not his, so why does it make Absta scummy?

Anti-town is not always mean scummy. Anti-town is simply anti-town. Like Private.

Yeah, but sometimes anti-town deserves to die at some point.

@Tier: Why so fidgety? The worse that can happen is one of us gets lynched... My flip won't hurt your credibility, would yours hurt me? You don't have to understand nor agree with my reads. However, it was your interaction with him in which I saw the cue to start digging deeper. That's the extent of your importance here.

Not sure why, but this made me twitch.

I'm actually feeling a lot more tepid about Tier based on what's happened since Aj's entrance and would rather go here.

VOTE: AJ

[Brian Skies]

Fine I'll be nice for a second and ask a couple of questions.

I know these aren't directed at me but I feel like answering them since Tier doesn't even understand what they mean.

Does it make sense to have a case on a) something you have never believed it or b) have no reason's in your past to have that thought process and be town?

a) To some degree, yes. I hold the firm expectation that players should (but not always) evolve as players. They will continuously be looking to improve and it's possible for them to develop new scum-tells or change their mafia philosophy. Especially for newer players.
b) If they have shown a strong aversion to believing their own case in the past and lack proper reasoning to change their said belief, then no. It's scummy. A lot of people are stubborn about their ideals, and the longer one plays, the harder it is to change the way they look at the game.

Does it make sense for a player that feels a player is scum because he has seen it as scum?

No idea. But I'll take it a step further and admit that I've taken things I've seen myself do as scum and used them as scum-tells against other players (to moderate success).

But in my opinion, seeing a particular person do something as scum is more of a meta tell.

Which makes more sense for a player to be thinking that is town?

This question needs clarification.

Which one is more likely then not?

I just haven't liked his posting in general since coming in. And I'm still peeved Jklash replaced out without ever answering my question.

I'm also having concerns that Tier and Aj could be a team, but I'm more concerned about Aj being lone scum WK'ing Tier than the other way around.

[Brian Skies]

I wasn't sure if you were saying there was one scum but I felt the need to point it out because that was how I read your last comment.

Haha, no. I was saying that if there was only 1 scum between the two of them, I thought it would be more likely to be Jklash.

I don't care if you had a BA in advance human pysch I would still call it a shit case.

This is the main reason why I'm suspecting that slot (along with the strong defense of Tier's slot since coming in). Everything before that is just "meh I'm not an expert in the human psyche" to me.

[Brian Skies]

Actually I'm going to FOS: Mic on that.

It actually doesn't do much for me in determining Mic's alignment. It falls exactly into line with his perpetual Absta tunnel.

[Brian Skies]

Will post tomorrow.

[Brian Skies]

I got very bad feels from farside's late day 2 play and I'm gonna figure those thoughts out.

What about farside's late day 2 play gave you bad feels? I thought she came out pretty townish.

It is possible that both scum were voting for me but you are more likely scum than Micc.

If there was one scum on your wagon, who do you think it is?

Lynching scum day 1 makes a game boring.

Like, why would you post that?

1. Wishy washy reads (why would that be town?)
2. no scum reads currently (no strong course of reads on anyone apparently). No this is not town. If so how.
3. Called AJ's play an example of how he plays as scum, but didn't vote for him and used the words could play manipulative as possible town, but unsure. If a player you have played with plays a certain way as scum the doubt of the play makes no sense.

None of these make a person scum individually. 1 and 2 in tandem, maybe. The third one is just 'meh.'

I think Tier might be scum, but its not because he has wishy washy reads, or because he doesn't have scum reads.

I do agree with Micc on this point (even if I still don't have him as town). I just haven't liked his targets in general and the way he wound up on the Yiley wagon still concerns me.

I still need to do a re-read. I really think there's two scum in <Tier, Micc, PI>. Absta could be scum, but I'm still not seeing it. Farside can only be scum with Absta, as already pointed out by Tier.

[Brian Skies]

I'm in the middle of my re-read and another prod is no bueno.

So just take this as another prod dodge.

[Brian Skies]

Brian would be my buddy in this case! But he's town! And so am I!

Why are you townreading me, anyways?

Im pretty sure this is not the proper way to handle LyLo. Why are you in such a hurry?

It's not the proper way to handle Lylo. And I'm seeing two completely different sides being taken right now (on one side Farside/Absta, and the other Micc/Tier). I still don't think Farside is scum just based on how genuine her scumhunting feels to me. I did have some issues with her initial push on me, but I'm pretty sure she was one of the first to move away from the PI lynch yesterday. I'm having trouble grasping why scum would give up such an easy mislynch, especially today.

I still need to finish my re-read, but I'm not at all pleased with how the discussion completely stopped with my absence (and I'm really sorry about that, I just got rocked by other things the last several days). And I'm really hoping we can get a replacement for PI pretty soon.

*I'm reading Micc as a little more townish based on his recent posting efforts. I just wish they could have come sooner instead of just blindly tunneling Absta all game.

I still think Absta could be town and the scum are within <Tier, Micc, PI>. Less Micc than the others. I've just generally liked the way Absta floated around and pushed people on Day 1 and I felt a lot of it was town-motivated. I'm also extremely concerned with the Day 1 Yiley wagon and how Tier ended up on the cop wagon so easily (granted, Yiley wasn't a shining beacon of obtowniness).

[Brian Skies]

I don't know why you're putting me into a side with micc. Micc is still scumreading me I think.

I just have you separated out as a group.

Anyway, do you see a me-PrI scumteam?

If PI is scum, then I can see him as scum with pretty much anyone (except Farside for obvious reasons). The associatives from that slot aren't exactly damning in any way.

Have you ever played with scumfarside before?

No. I don't have any completed games with anyone in this playerslist. And I wouldn't count PI because he didn't do anything in that one Newbie game he replaced into (like I said, made one post and disappeared).

And about the yiley wagon, I kinda drove it so eh I don't knoe how I suddenly ended up on it?

I guess. Micc was kind of the primary driver though.

I hope you realise that farside is confirmed town at this stage unless you think i'm scum. She can't be scum with anyone but me or she would've ended the game already.

This is the most important thing regarding Farside suspicions. Can't really consider Farside being scum unless Absta is scum first.

Eek, come in here and talk.

This is probably the one thing I want to see most. I want to see that slot from another person's POV. Kind of concerned that the slot was picked up by someone and hasn't even bothered to make a post in thread.

[Brian Skies]

You seem to be sidelining.

A little bit. I'm pretty sure we're on the ropes here and I really want to make sure we hit scum this time.

Do you think absta is scum?

With the exception of his hard push here with Farside in Lylo, no.

Do you think the scum-team decided to take the buddying approach from the onset?

@Brian - What do you think of Tier?

I think the likeliest team right now is Tier/PI. The way Tier's read wavers on PI is pretty alignment indicative and it could be because they're buddies.

I can see a Micc/PI scumteam as well. Their interactions are pretty lackluster (mostly on PI's part). The common denominator of the two teams above is that both Micc and Tier have townread PI at points (or at least I think they have).

Regarding Micc/Tier, it's a possibility, but I find their interactions really weird. Micc spent a lot of the early game defending Tier whereas Tier has shown small signs of paranoia regarding Micc buddying him. The thing that gives me pause is the way they both pushed the Yiley wagon. The cop wagon was a bold push and I don't think both scum would make a bold move like that. Of the three combinations, I find this one the least likely.

I still think Tier is more likely to be scum than Micc. The main concerns I have with Micc is the way he tried to push his PL on Absta through the first two days. There was some scumhunting on Day 2, and the posting I've seen since the PL is no longer an option reads more townish to me. He also championed the Yiley wagon and mainly left it because he was looking for a more strategic lynch. I can easily see a town player really thinking he was making the most optimal play for the town. His frustration regarding the town not listening to what he thinks is the most optimal play also reads townish to me.

[Brian Skies]

I'm thinking Micc/Tier are scum together.

I'm interested in hearing this conclusion.

Did you read my post about the last half of day 1? What did you think about it?

Weak. It's like you just grabbed a bunch of random posts but I'm not seeing exactly what it is about them that makes them scummy. Or at least scum together.

Spoiler:

Explain this brian vote, please.

I don't remember what I was doing at the time but I think I was pretty disengaged from the game.

I believe the scum is in Micc/Private/Brian/Tier.

Can you explain why you thought so at the time?

I'd actually like to hear this from Absta. I don't think he ever responded to this (or any of the questions for that matter).

@Yiley

- Investigate Micc please.

Wait what the actual fuck
This is so fucking scummy with him earlier saying he should be investigated but with no one biting in that he just tries to direct the investigation away from himself. There is absolutely no reason for him to change the investigation target if he were town.

Why do you think this? Wouldn't town rather have someone else get investigated in hopes of finding scum? Do you think Micc was a bad target?

Pri=lurker yiley=scum.


Can you please vote yiley, we're getting dangerously close to deadline.

Agreed.

unvote:
vote: Yiley

This vote has absolutely no buildup and makes me very uncomfortable.

What buildup could she have had considering it was a late deadline vote? You even asked her to vote Yiley.

Micc: who are your scum pairs and why?

Still want to hear this as well.

Mislynch lose situation people scum reads are:

abasta/far (this is Tier's thought)
or
Tier/Private (this is Brian and absta's thoughts)
Or
Tier/Micc (this is mine)

Oppinion on those people's views would be helpful

I've given my opinion on each of those pairs already but I haven't heard much from you on why you think it's Tier/Micc yet.

*Regarding associative tells, they are what they are. I don't hold a ton of weight in them. I just find you and PI the likeliest to be scum. After you two, Micc (although I've gotten some pretty townish vibes from his lylo play recently). Farside thinks he's scum though and I'm interested in seeing what she says about it.

[Brian Skies]

Yeah, but you'd expect her to have vague suspicions of yiley before. Why not PrivateI?

This is an interesting thought. But the Yiley wagon had been building for a while and you/Micc were pushing it. I don't remember anyone singling out PI for a wagon other than Mit and it was pretty close to deadline.

If I don't die from this, it should be confirmed to you guys that one of me or Tier is scum.

I'm just going to wait to see if it's a Micc/Meek scumteam. If it is, we were probably going to lose anyways and my vote isn't going to save us.

Tier's vote was a little unexpected and I still want to hear from Farside. :/

[Brian Skies]

Vote: Absta

[Brian Skies]

My thoughts on this game from a scum perspective (sorry if it's really long):

Mitillos - Doctor
Micc - 1-Shot Bulletproof
farside22 - Doublevoter
TierShift - Vanilla
Yiley - Even-Night Cop
Aj The Epic/Jklash - Mailman
absta101 - Hammerer

Meek/PI - Treestump
Brian Skies - 1-Shot Global Roleblocker

I felt the way the alignments actually fell, this was pretty townsided. However, the loss of your only investigative role because he was being essentially useless swung it back heavily into my favor. I actually found it weird that people were trying to lynch Yiley because his lurking was alignment indicative and PI's wasn't. I actually wanted nothing to do with the Yiley wagon and I'm sorry that had to happen. If I were given the choice to compromise between the two as town, I would have chosen PI because if we had been wrong, at worst we would have lost a town vote but would still have kept a town voice. I also think we should have been able to force replace Yiley. Seeing a town cop get lynched Day 1 because of lurking kind of ruins how much I fought for this because it does swing the game towards the scumteams favor. The roleblocker was useless to me as town and I burned it on Night 1 just to get rid of it (the cop was the only person I could roleblock and with him gone, the ability was useless to me). Going into Day 2, the set-up was basically:

Mitillos - Doctor
Micc - 1-Shot Bulletproof
farside22 - Doublevoter
TierShift - Vanilla
Aj The Epic/Jklash - Vanilla
absta101 - Hammerer

Meek/PI - Treestump
Brian Skies - Mafia Goon

And I think that's scumsided or pretty close to it. Especially when I avoided the blowblack from the Yiley wagon (thanks to PI for taking a bullet for the team, but why is this a thing?). It's like, if you're going to hammer somebody as scum, don't make it painfully obvious you're scum and draw attention to yourself. I guess it can be argued that the set-up ended up being 6 townies vs 1 scum double-voter by Day 2. Which is pretty dumb.

The beginning of the game, I was actually messing around with the private QT I was given for daytalk (and I think I found a bug at the time) and wasn't actually paying attention to the game (hence the set-up spec and complete lack of pretending to scumhunt). I didn't really trust it a whole lot, otherwise there would have been a lot more posting in there.

For Farside:

This game would probably suck less if more people were voting who I'm voting.

Let me help you out with that then.

VOTE: Celebloki

@Nacho: How long do you plan on sitting on your Celebloki wagon? Don't you think we'd have better success pressuring those outside the townblock first?

I did actually appease scum Nacho as town before I signed up for this game. I just couldn't defend it in this game because the other one was still ongoing. So I don't know if appeasement is a scumtell for me (and I think I typically hit a lot of scumtells when I roll town anyways). I also wasn't even trying to appease the people in this game to begin with, so there's that too.

I agree with AJ that Mafia is majorly defined by people trying to manipulate other people. And I don't find manipulation in general to be a scumtell and didn't even push his mislynch for it (I think I pushed some bullshit about him possibly WK'ing Tier). I was already planning on lynching Jklash, but your entrance into this game terrified me and I thought it was better to get rid of you before you had a chance to figure the scumteam out. I hope you can forgive me for that, but as far as I was concerned, I had seen enough from you and you had to go! It literally went from lynching Jklash because I thought I could mislynch him to lynching AJ because I needed to nip the new threat in the bud.

Tier, your play was pretty townish this game and I really only sided with Farside/Absta because 1) I needed Absta alive so I could lynch him down the road, 2) they were making the case for me and it was the quickest path to victory for me, 3) somebody had to be scum that wasn't me/PI, and 4) your biggest ally (Micc) didn't have much towncred going for him. Farside was also a double-voter and I wasn't in the mood this game to oppose her power and instead opted to working with her.

Mit died N2 because I needed him to die so I could NK the DV (who was my biggest target after the cop). Also, he was townreading Farside and I knew he was most likely going to protect her. Otherwise I might have taken a chance at killing off Farside first.

Micc was right about a lot of things regarding the set-up spec and the scum-team wanting to keep Absta alive (which is something I really only considered after Micc brought it up). The policy lynch against Absta on Day 1 wasn't great and destroyed a lot of your towncred, and I think had you avoided it entirely people may have listened to you more.

All in all, I feel that (for the large part), the players in this game played really well. You all had suspicions on PI and me all game, I just don't think anyone actually tied us together. I was somewhat serious about bussing PI at the end of Day 1 because I actually thought it would improve my chances of winning (we were both at the low end of the towncred totem pole). Day 2 I changed my mind because I didn't want to give you guys a free flip and thought it would just be more work to fight off an extra mislynch.

Thanks again for the game, N. I appreciated playing with the people in this playerslist and wouldn't mind seeing you guys in future games. And I'd love to take your offer in the future Meek. I'll be keeping an eye out for you and thanks for helping me win this one.

[Brian Skies]

@Brian: The most suspicious thing you did was not pick up your attack on PrivateI on D2 (as I mentioned before). If more people were in favour of his lynch, that might have helped tie you to him, after his flip. Sadly, PrivateI lurked the game away with impunity.

Kind of hard to pick up my attack when I was actually trying to set him him up as lynchbait.

But I do agree that had people been more in favor of lynching the scummy treestump, I could have been tied to him. But I did go from bussing him, to WK'ing him, to completely ignoring the slot as it lurked the game away.