Tales of You (Endgame)

[Breakfast With Sandy]

hi guys

[Breakfast With Sandy]

beliffery is quite mellifluous. I approve.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I refuse to believe those are SSK posts.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I love this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What do ye think of CarbonFiber?
His entrance be piss poor,
It felt very forced and, well,
I kind of expected more

As did I.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery's read is in abeyance. Will wait for F-16.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

#45 may be the best Brian Skies post I've ever read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery - any early thoughts on Bork?

No crystal-shattering town-notes for me yet, but I wouldn't expect one quite so soon.

Re that other game, I think you were more concerned about my Deacon Blues posts than bork's as far as reading us early on. In fact, bork townslipped like a boss in one of his early posts but nobody in the game really noticed.

We both apparently got under your skin in non-alignment-indicative ways. The dynamics will probably be different in this game.

gah alt slip.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Actually, they probably were alignment indicative, though not obviously so.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

We both apparently got under your skin in non-alignment-indicative ways. The dynamics will probably be different in this game.

It's weird looking at you from the other side of the lake



-b

If you guys are town, then we'll probably be one big happy townbloc in the not too distant future.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you guys are town, then we'll probably be one big happy townbloc in the not too distant future.

We being you and us or is there anyone else you're including in there atm?

-b

Actually 81 was a pretty townie sounding post, I think.

Leaning town on the brian/notsci hydra. Mac seems pretty town so far. It will take me a good while to figure out the pirate unless I can sort Nati posts from zmuffin posts, and I think they're being pretty obscure about it right now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

loled

bastard

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I like ffery so far too.

I SEE HOW IT IS!

*doorslam*

[Breakfast With Sandy]

question why ffery and Beli are being read as town. I expected ffery to be more enthusiastic about playing with this playerlist and I don't see it yet. But I should be able to get a proper read later on. Also, could you point out which heads posted what so far?

I'm plenty enthusiastic about this game. However I'm hellaciously time constrained this month and it's impacting the amount of time I spend in all my games everywhere. I'll be going home in a little over a week and my play should start to be more "normal" after that.

What do you think about all the suspicion you guys have generated?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It was me.

I think beli's made one post so far.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It was me.

I think beli's made one post so far.

In answer to post 274.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

question why ffery and Beli are being read as town. I expected ffery to be more enthusiastic about playing with this playerlist and I don't see it yet. But I should be able to get a proper read later on. Also, could you point out which heads posted what so far?

I'm plenty enthusiastic about this game. However I'm hellaciously time constrained this month and it's impacting the amount of time I spend in all my games everywhere. I'll be going home in a little over a week and my play should start to be more "normal" after that.

What do you think about all the suspicion you guys have generated?

Any early thoughts on rbd?

I'm pretty terrible at reading muffin. I think I have a useful nati-model but so far, there aren't any unequivocally nati-posts for me to think about. I like their interaction with Mac. To me, that level of playfulness usually looks town, but it's not very useful for content-based reading.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

Do you think he's wrong?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: breakfast

I wondered where you were!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

Do you think he's wrong?

I am not sure. I want to hear his thought process. Do you think you did anything in this game that you would be unable to fake if you were scum?

~ F-16

Although I think I might be able to fool bork as scum, I don't think as scum I'd interact with him in quite the same way I've done here. It's a subtlety, but I think it's something that players who know me well probably pick up on.

It's one of the reasons I roll my eyes a little when people talk about "yeah but that can be faked". There's a tremendous amount of context, tone, timing, etc., that nuances player behavior. The under and overtones are a lot harder to fake than the base behavior stripped of all that context.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

You usually interact with her much more before you nail down a read as evidenced by We're on a Boat and OCRemix. How did this read come by so quickly without much interaction?
~ F-16

Do you think he's wrong?

I am not sure. I want to hear his thought process. Do you think you did anything in this game that you would be unable to fake if you were scum?

~ F-16

Although I think I might be able to fool bork as scum, I don't think as scum I'd interact with him in quite the same way I've done here. It's a subtlety, but I think it's something that players who know me well probably pick up on.

v.v
I know no one's going to give a damn about my opinion but I think any better-than-slight townreads on you at this point are pretty ridiculous.

I think I like the Clyton reads wall, despite its ending sounding like a 5 paragraph essay.

p-edit: oh dang I agree with mastin what is this even

If you ever townread me early day 1 of a game I'll freak the fuck out.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

WHICH REMINDS ME
HYDRAS PLS SIGN POSTS
OTHERWISE IM GONNA GO BIPOLAR IN HERE TO FILL THE VOID

You're

really

not gonna like me, then.

Also @wheover asked me about ffery-

It sounds different. Like, the hatred of the role pm seeps into her being.

I, conversely, strongly prefer scum. What makes you so sure that wouldn't affect our tone?

Ffery may think you're town, but getting townread for no goddamn reason sets off a lot of klaxons in

my

skull.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Orcinus.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

After the game empire pointed out a couple of reasons I should never had read ffery as scum past like the second page anyway.

I'm not giving you those reasons this game.

btw do you remember Nati scumreading you in NY 169? There was one hilarious geists crosspost where he and I reacted completely differently to one of your posts. I dunno if that does or should factor in to your RBD read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I was thinking of where I called your post 87 town. If I were scum, that was not the post I would have called you town for because it cuts a little close to the bone in terms of my feelings about town players when I'm scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

After the game empire pointed out a couple of reasons I should never had read ffery as scum past like the second page anyway.

I'm not giving you those reasons this game.

Why aren't you giving me those reasons this game?

Well, not yet anyway. My base mood and involvement are different in this game. I hadn't really thought about the first few pages of Vesperia until I read this post, but you wound up eliciting a sort of kneejerk tell from me. That kind of town tell comes at a cost, and there aren't that many players at MS who see it for what it is anyway.

Also, I do remember that in NY169, and incidentally I feel so much like I did that game but I'm trying to not get as frustrated. What I figured, at the time and couldn't say, was that Red Wine was happening at the same time and I figured that Nati was a little more suspicious of me than he would have normally been due to him being my partner in that game. Red Wine was one of my better scum games, so it made a bit of sense to me that he would be a bit more cautious then.

Yeah, that makes a little more sense of both of your reads/behaviors in early NY169.

There's been that game and three more since then, and him even mentioning Too Many Heads doesn't make any sense. I still refuse to believe that's Nati. Not after how easily he was able to differentiate between my actual frustration in Attack on Titan and my fake attempt at frustration in Too Many Heads, and how easily he was able to read me as town in Tales of Vesperia.

I don't even know what my read on them is this game.

me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Nacho just told me that he's been posting early reads in our old Hydra QT from Legend of Zelda and I had no idea

He's got Tammy early town from (paraphrasing) genuine vesperia frustration + early reaching to/sorting of notscience head
LB/MastinSSK/RG are all early town reads for him too and I don't object to any of them (although I might still call LB null).

-b

p-edit: why did you use the term 'that was not

the

post I would have called you town for' (emphasis mine) as if you knew beforehand there was going to be one (but not necessarily which one).

If I were scum, I'd be on the lookout for a post I could call town, but I would have passed on that one more because of the reasons I'd call it town than anything.

There absolutely would be more posts I could confidently call town as scum. There have been several since 87 that are probably stronger townposts than that one. You bleed town copiously as town and you're well aware of it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: Yukari

[Breakfast With Sandy]

There absolutely would be more posts I could confidently call town as scum. There have been several since 87 that are probably stronger townposts than that one. You bleed town copiously as town and you're well aware of it.

Therein was the root of my question I suppose: were you actually seeing the bleed-iness of my posting, because your comment really only makes sense in the context where you are seeing that. I just don't see any other reaction to my posts other than the one you did comment on.

flurgh. I'll admit I don't know where to go with this.

-b

I'm not sure about the timing you're asking about here. We exchanged a few comments before your 87, and I think it's evident in my posts before 87 that I hadn't nailed down a town read prior to that.

I wanted you guys to be town this game, and I was damn glad I didn't necessarily have to sort Nacho in order to figure out your alignment.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: Yukari

I'm curious. I know Yukari has been a non-presence so far, but why him over orcinus for example?

We thought about both of them.

Orcinus actually took a stance and invited interaction by putting down a vote.

Our vote is an invitation to Yukari-GiF.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: Yukari

I'm curious. I know Yukari has been a non-presence so far, but why him over orcinus for example?

Why the Christ would we vote Orci? For saying hi with a vote? That's not weird.

Yukari's lack of engagement, however, is.

Both heads agreed on our vote before it was cast.

Pedit : jinx

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm not sure about the timing you're asking about here. We exchanged a few comments before your 87, and I think it's evident in my posts before 87 that I hadn't nailed down a town read prior to that.

Nah I'm not objecting to that - that's what I would expect from town-you.

I'm having trouble articulating what I want to say here - I couldn't really tell if you were saying "If I were scum there were plenty of other reasons to call you town (either before or after 87 because the posts are clearly there) that were easier to point at" (fine) or "If I were scum I know I'd have found something else to call you town about (because I actually already know that you're town)" (not fine because that would not be an actual sorting of my slot)

Hence my question about how you got to where you did with us besides 87.

-b

Have I answered this well enough then?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: Yukari

I'm curious. I know Yukari has been a non-presence so far, but why him over orcinus for example?

Why the Christ would we vote Orci? For saying hi with a vote? That's not weird.

Yukari's lack of engagement, however, is.

Both heads agreed on our vote before it was cast.

Pedit : jinx

throwing down a naked vote isn't really engaging anyone either, is it?

It's engaging you.

There's a reason I like reverse trajectories.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

btw what happened to your post restriction?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It was, and in our convo since, you've given me enough cues about what was bothering you/what you were looking for that my reactions are probably less indicative as the discussion progressed.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

throwing down a naked vote isn't really engaging anyone either, is it?

Context is relevant. My impression is that Orci and Ffery know each other well enough for a "hi" vote to be normal. Apparently Ffery thought it through in more depth than I did, though.

A naked vote from a stranger would have caused me to look askance, but I'm not seeing Orci as out of the ordinary right no.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery, do you agree with my assessment that Mac is playing more to his town meta. You played with him in the first Tales game and in AA:MFA when he was scum and town respectively.

I've played with Mac in several games. The first Tales game, especially his early game was a scary-good scum game. I suspected the other two scum but had him quite high in my town list while I was alive.

He's in my town pile. With a few footnotes.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hey F-16 why aren't you taking in the whole game? You seem pretty focused on what Tammy thinks of you.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I dunno. After NY 169 I guess I thought you'd make sorting/comparing notes with me more of a priority.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think as I pointed out in that game, it was the first game we've played where I actually had to figure out your alignment. For whatever reason you did make getting a read on me nailed down in that game something of of a priority to the point of faking or exaggerating a scum meta-read as a reaction test, but there was no question that your stake in the ground was Tammy.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have been doing that even while I haven't developed a townread on you, for instance asking what you thought of Mac.

I am curious though what did you find notable in NY169 in particular that would make it a priority for me? I'd probably want to compare notes even without considering NY169.

~ F-16

I think I just figured out what's bugging me. There's a lack of depth in your play so far.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I'm more interested in the process than in the results at the moment.

holy crap that's three in a day.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, I'm probably not going to do a lot to sort Nacho this game, since I'm better at reading bork.

There are other players whose reads of me you should be a little concerned about, I think. Nati should go without saying, but orcinus also has a fair bit of experience playing with me.

orcinus' modus in the early game is to vote players he wants to talk to. He dropped his vote and disappeared in this game. What do you make of that?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What specifically struck you as lacking depth?

~ F-16

follow-up. For instance your question about Mac. You usually follow-up and probe for more info when you get a short answer to a question.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I haven't seen anything from you that's obviously town but you said that you are time constrained for a week so I am willing to wait to sort you once I've seen you at full throttle. I can also misread your early play if I try to sort you too early as shown when I was spectating on the second Tales game but I don't think I'll read you incorrectly if I wait to see more content before reading you. You were easy to sort in NY169 for your early attack on Nacho. I had some residual paranoia because I so strongly disagreed with you about Pieguyn but that went away later as well.

Is there anyone else you think I should be reading strongly as town? Or anyone who I shouldn't be?

~ F-16

I'm more interested in the process than in the results at the moment.

The process of how I read you as opposed to whether I read you as town or scum? My priorities are different. I care about being right more than meeting expectations of how you would expect me to sort you. I'll be as transparent as I can to help you mutually sort me but I am not going to try and emulate previous games.

~ F-16

Your process of getting reads in general, not just a read of me. How players form their reads is more alignment-revealing than the reads themselves usually.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What new things has your tenth reread of the thread unearthed?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Have you played with Mac before? What specifically gave you a town read?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

something about the chronology is bugging me. I'll go back over it in the morning.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Fox, what do you think of Breakfast? The whole bit where he says F-16's posts lack depth doesn't make sense. Thoughts?

I wasn't talking about lack of analytic depth. There is plenty of depth to most of his analysis. I was referring to lack of depth in interaction.

I think his reasons for thinking Mac is town are good, and fit what I've seen in the past from him in terms of how he goes about forming reads.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mackie when you're touching my soul,
In the candle light,
Mackie when I lost control,
In the heat of the night

Mac, Mac, Mackie,
Can't get you off my mind

http://thehighseas.bastardly.org/?p=51

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Fox, what do you think of Breakfast? The whole bit where he says F-16's posts lack depth doesn't make sense. Thoughts?

I wasn't talking about lack of analytic depth. There is plenty of depth to most of his analysis. I was referring to lack of depth in interaction.

I think his reasons for thinking Mac is town are good, and fit what I've seen in the past from him in terms of how he goes about forming reads.

I asked FT whether my play lacked depth because I wondered if I was just having an off game but he flatly denied it and said I was probably playing better than anyone else which made your lacking depth comment sound off.

When you say lacking depth in interaction, are you saying that you would have preferred that I grill you on your Mac read more as being helpful and pro-town overall or just because it would fit in with my past meta in NY169? Upon re-evaluating my play, I eliminated aspects of it that I thought were unhelpful specifically extended discussion of agreed upon reads. I am going to play in a way I believe would help town the most regardless of what I did before. If I did it differently in a previous game, then I changed my mind since then as to what I believe is the most effective course of action.

protown, helpful in developing a read of your slot, and would fit your past meta, and not just in ny 169.

Also, are you asking me to compare notes with you because it will help us both refine our reads or was it something you expected to see and didn't see it now? I'd like to know which it was since it'll help me optimize my play not just here but in the future.

Nearly everything I do in games I do for multiple reasons. I don't generally keep checklists of stuff I expect to see from players when I play with them. When something seems off in someone's play, then I think about why - what they're doing that I haven't seen before, what they're not doing that I have seen, etc. Those kinds of observations become shorthand in my reads, but there's usually a whole cascade of detail I can post when asked. Mac and I have played in about 10 games, now. And I just realized that this isn't your first game with him. He was one of the heads in the Stuffed Crust hydra. The head I was mostly townreading. :/

You said something earlier about thinking that you had irritated me in the ny169 game by asking for more detail about my reads. IIRC I did get snappish about being asked for updated reads at one point, but it was the week my laptop bit the dust and I was posting from a netbook or a tablet for a few days. massive rereads, heavy analysis, and even documenting my thoughts with links was a huge pain that week and I put it off until I bought a new laptop. IIRC it was 4 or 5 days duration.

~ F-16[/quote]

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Stalin, may we have brunch?

Wondering where you are with scumreads, or townreads that's the way you're rolling.

I have a list squirreled away in our hydra QT. Mostly townreads and players I want more data from at this point. but I have about 24 hours worth of posts in this game to mull over and consider their effect. I haven't seen anything that's shaken a town read from earlier though.

Do you want to talk about it now or wait a few hours?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

A scumread on Tammy isn't sustainable because scum who scumread Tammy with shit reasons generally wind up dead. I don't know why he chose to scumread Tammy initially other than WIFOM or cred for going after high hanging fruit. He has to figure out a way to back out of the scumread and pretending to see eye to eye with Tammy and her suspicion of me was a perfect opportunity considering he was already working up a scumread based off of FT's initial post.

mastin's a fairly competent scum player and not afraid to go after strong players iirc, I'm also fairly certain he wouldn't ever take on a read he felt the need to back out of as scum. This feels to me like you're trying to manipulate mastin's play to suit your thoughts, rather than manipulating your thoughts to suit mastin's play. I don't like it.

Vote: CarbonFiber

Stalin - be around in 3 hours or so? I'm looking to discuss CarbonFiber, Hawkie & Clyton. Probably someone else too, but I've forgotten.

phoneposting at hospital. we'll be here a couple more hours probs. Will post my thoughts when we're home.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Really now? Is my posting usually that bad?

What did you like about it?

I liked your tone, which felt pretty relaxed and confident and I liked the posts you chose to quotestripe and respond to. Sometimes in the early game you play more like a reflective surface than like a player who is engaged and thinking. That wasn't the case in your (as far as I know) first post of this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bork's posting of Kagura feels very town on a re-read. I think by waiting for Nacho, I was missing the obvious. The way Bork engages with arguments gives me strong vibes from the first two Tales games and I didn't feel the same tone when following a scum game of his (We The Purple). His question to NotScience in Post 72 mirrored what FT and I initially wondered as well regarding NotScience's read on SSK. I also like his engagement with Rancid in Post 472 and it matches up with the critical thinking and assertively inserting himself into arguments that I've seen in Tales of Vesperia where he engaged Cait Sith on their arguments very specifically going over the details and he comes acrosss the same way tonally. I feel I was kinda missing the obvious with this read here. ffery, do you think I am on the right track? Because I'd probably bank more on my townread here than other previous reads which are growing a lot more stale. I am confident in this read even without hearing from Nacho at all.

Yes, I do. Post 81 or whatever the number was - the post that nailed an early townread for me was probably not something that would resonate for most players. His posts since then have his particular brand of town openness, assertiveness and caution.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm squelching an urge to mediate between some townreads because sometimes when I mediate it turns out one of the players are scum and mediating muddies some of the interactions that might otherwise be more alignment indicative. But, right now, I feel like the players are all probably town. :/

I dunno. I'll probably eventually meddle.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mastin, will ye join me crew?
I think our reads are almost the same,
Together we can make scum spew,
And it be easy to win this game

I have a fair few town reads cracked,
Tell me what ye think of these,
There's LB, CF, Kagura and Mac
With them I'd sail the seas

RG is a maybe-town read,
But I do not like his play,
And cupcake could be town but he'd,
Be more in an area that's grey

I also see Clyton town,
For the same posts ye quoted,
In our QT I wrote it down,
Before yer 320 was noted

The rest of the game I'm still figuring out,
There's plenty of work to do,
Which is why I will not mess about,
I want ye in me crew

I mostly agree with these reads. My Clyton read has taken some minor hits with his recent posts, but I'm not sure what's bothering me is actually alignment indicative.

How do you feel about cephvail?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

How do you feel about cephvail?

I dunno where me other half,
Be at with his reads,
Our QT is mostly me,
Giving opinions on misdeeds

I think FoxHound be scummy,
Mostly for their tone,
Their content comes across flat to me,
It feels like a dull drone

It feels different from what,
Ceph was like in that large game,
But I don't know if his alignment,
Is why it doesn't feel the same

DV I dunno,
I haven't seen enough,
From what I've seen though,
I'm meh on his stuff

In that game, Ceph was hot and cold
based on what time he could spend
finals and holidays had their hold
And to their dictates his play would bend

I'm reluctant to use the meta tells
I've discussed elsewhen and elsewhere
By now Ceph should do quite well
at hitting those markers square

Null read he is and may stay a fair while
It will take something strong to move it
It's a read that must age in a barrel
With him, the demand is "prove it".

sigh

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yes.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Leaning slightly town on CF. There's an F-16 game I want to reread when I have time, where he was town and came under some suspicion early on. It was a smaller game, though. Would also like to hunt up a game where he was suspected early on as scum. I think there was an open game where that happened. He was at LYLO with bert in that game if I'm remembering correctly.

Has prohawk posted? I think the posts we've seen so far are 3dicerolling. No completed games with him, so he's on my meta list. I didn't like his posts, though. It felt kind of opportunistic, jumping into the swirl going on with CF, Titan and MastinSSK. Though I think if they're all three town, it's possible scum might sit back, let town choose sides and see what happens.

Clyton I had a pretty strong town read on initially. Although scum sometimes talk positively about their scum game, I got a townvibe from what he was saying.

It faded a little when he talked about it requiring the "system" to sort him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery, what are your read on Titan and MastinSSK?

Post 636

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It feels like you are saying that if 3Dice is scum, there is probably one scum among the three of us but you are not sure?

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

Also, you said you had an urge to mediate between townreads. Who specifically were you referring to?

~ F-16

Shouldn't be rocket science to figure out, but I am not going to say just yet.

I blame the mafblack skin.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have Titan and Mastin as town and you as a fairly weak town read atm.

And no, I'm not assuming that one of you 3 are scum if 3dice is scum at all.

What changed since Tales of Vesperia where you were not confident in your ability to read Tammy based off of your Red Wine misread. How are you confident now?
~ F-16

Tales of Vesperia happened. There's a very strong cross-current in this game from Vesperia and she's in the vortex. The cross-current is mostly comprised of her misreads of DeaconBlues (me/bork) initially, and her ongoing misread of NachoPeng in that game. It's affected her play and her approach to getting reads, and it's affected bork and me, and possibly Nacho if he ever shows up.

And more importantly the interpretations and misinterpretations of those crosscurrents by other players has been very informative.

The main niggle in my Mastin read is that she apparently didn't see how adjustment for those misreads was impacting this game at first, if at all. It was almost like there were two separate town games going on in Vesperia - the neighborhood-town and the vig/lovers-switch town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Can you define "cross-current" because I have no idea what it means in a mafia context.

Once in a while, instead of a dial back to zero, the interactions from one game's town impact the starting state of another game. That has happened in this game. Vesperia isn't the only game that has impacted this game's starting state, but it's had a rather strong impact, maybe because of the players involved.

Regarding the two separate town games, are you referring specifically to the QTs or did you feel that the players were thinking along separate game interpretations in the thread?

The latter.

What reads did you get out of the interpretations and misinterpretations of the game or "cross-currents" as you say. Who did you feel have the right and wrong interpretations and did that affect your read on them one way or another?

I was initially concerned about Mastin because it seemed like she wasn't taking Vesperia into account in looking at how Tammy was interacting with bork and Nacho. But, I wasn't taking into account how bifurcated town was in that game due to role interactions. I still feel like Mastin should have been more aware, but given where her focus was in Vesperia, it's not too surprising that she wasn't.

I got townleaning reads on Lord Business and Clyton, though my Clyton read has lost a little shine. It was also interesting to see how RBD and Mac reacted based on how their starting points have been affected by past games.

You watched Vesperia from the spectator seats. Do you think my impressions about how these two games are entangled are wrong?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Most of my hesitation in NY 169 was due to never having had to actually develop a read based on your play before. There was other stuff, but I think that was the main factor.

The way you build your game around Tammy is sort of how I used to (and still tend to) build my game around my read of Nacho and then work outward through the player list from there. But, I've misread him several times in the last few months, so I've quit pressuring myself to develop a quick read of him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What do you mean by me "building my game" around Tammy? You've mentioned this before but as far as I recall, I spent plenty of time reading several players in the game. I think you've mentioned this phrase before with regard to Bert but I am not quite sure what you are referring to. As far as developing quick reads, I try to develop reads on players easily readable so I can work with them. If someone I work well with is hard to read (like Nacho), I sometimes invert that like in NY169 where I made that deal although I decided that's probably a bad idea.
~ F-16

Your read of Tammy seemed like your highest priority in NY 169, and it seemed/seems the same here. Read priority is part of it, but from there you aggressively townbloc based on her reads, and in NY169 you did so by excluding players (mainly Mara/Cabd, who were bleeding PR tells) who didn't agree with you about her and that she was scumreading because of their push on her. You scumread them and I think at one point on day 1 were trying to drum up a wagon on them.

Anyway, I may be seeing parallels that aren't really all that strong here.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I am extremely lost in this game, and I blame the overabundance of meta-references that I don't understand/have time to go research. I feel like I am playing a game with a gazillion inside jokes.

Someone talk to me.

Preacher, meet choir. Ffery's keeping me afloat this game, but I'm still looking for scum almost exclusively within her town reads.

An ye want something to do while your other head is at the tiller, do me a favour and have a gander at everyone's interactions with Fox & Hound. See anything off, or am I just mad?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Belisaurius us on record for strongly liking scum, but ffery's been taking the initiative a lot here

I'm also on the record (in Time: The Distortion) for trying to subvert that meta in order to prevent it from turning into a trust tell. Plus, I'm pretty confident that Ffery can fake being me any time she wants.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

so are we doing a no-meta game

hahaha

What do you think of ffery's latest posts? I have a townlean but I am not as certain as I was in NY169 partly because I know there are a lot of things she can't fake when scum and was hoping to see if something pops up that'll help me know with certainty.
~ F-16

I'm leaning town on ffery. I'm not really great at reading ffery early, but after vesperia empire and I talked about how to read ffery. I don't think she's that easy to read, but he says she is. Anyway, he said that one of the ways to read ffery is to look at how much thought she's putting into the game. So, if I look at that, she looks town here. Belisaurius us on record for strongly liking scum, but ffery's been taking the initiative a lot here, and I think in scum hydras she tends to be less present, though that certainly wasn't the case for chef mafia I don't think. Now the only thing is that she's playing with people who hydra with her/play with her a lot so she could be subverting expectations but I'm not sure I actually get that feeling here. I was surprised that nacho didn't have her in his early reads though. I did like her questioning of you a few pages back; it looked like she was trying to sort you.

i honestly think the best way to read fery is to look at how her reads interact with her hydra partner's

i'm faiiiiirrrllyyyy confident in fery town this game

How are my reads interacting with my hydra partner's? And how do you manage to read me when I'm not in a hydra?

reading through this game, i think we want to townbloc

hai

[Breakfast With Sandy]

pedit: i'd say but that would be telling, wouldn't it?

i think that i have a easier time reading you outside of hydra. in-hydra i feel that i have a harder time understanding what you're doing. also some of the hesitation you have with reads come across nicer when you don't have a person to bounce ideas off of

heylo

I'm curious how beli's and my reads are interacting from your pov.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

can i not, or is this super important to you

Important but not urgent. I'll eventually want to know, though.

Are you talking townbloc in theoretical terms or do you have one?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

maybe a conversation for day 3

i don't have one yet, but my general impression reading through is that breaking this game is going to be a lot easier if you abuse the number of people being obvtown

reads utterly trump setup spec in a Cabd game afaiac.

we'd have to sort out concerns with f16 first though

I'm probably going to take my time with that read and not try to brute-force it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

you're talking to me like you think i'm town

perceptive.

i recall you being less approachable in some other games, though i'd be lying if i said it were a very accurate recall

BSG micro called. Something about a page 1 townread.

Notice anything odd about the vote count?

@mastinssk, do you know what that's about?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Trusting me blindly when I call someone town is usually not a great idea because they're manipulating me specifically. Not trusting me when I say someone's town AND they're obviously town, worse idea. I've been pretty much constantly manipulating people for months and months and months and have made pretty awesome strides in my scumgame, and as a result, have become more of a paranoid person, AKA it's become even harder to make it past me lately.

Isn't that wonderful?

I'm more worried about you getting past me. Again.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Trusting me blindly when I call someone town is usually not a great idea because they're manipulating me specifically. Not trusting me when I say someone's town AND they're obviously town, worse idea. I've been pretty much constantly manipulating people for months and months and months and have made pretty awesome strides in my scumgame, and as a result, have become more of a paranoid person, AKA it's become even harder to make it past me lately.

Isn't that wonderful?

I'm more worried about you getting past me. Again.

You shouldn't have to worry about that too much in this game.

Not too much, no.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

page 29 looks more like reasons to be paranoid of me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

#45 may be the best Brian Skies post I've ever read.

I object.

Overruled

Fuckballs

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have bork as strong town.

In theory, I could maybe see Nacho coaching bork through a scum role and helping him hit all the right notes, but I know from recent hydraing with nacho that even if he wanted to/could coach a partner that way, he doesn't have the huge swaths of time it would take.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have bork as strong town.

In theory, I could maybe see Nacho coaching bork through a scum role and helping him hit all the right notes, but I know from recent hydraing with nacho that even if he wanted to/could coach a partner that way, he doesn't have the huge swaths of time it would take.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have bork as strong town.

In theory, I could maybe see Nacho coaching bork through a scum role and helping him hit all the right notes, but I know from recent hydraing with nacho that even if he wanted to/could coach a partner that way, he doesn't have the huge swaths of time it would take.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

triple post?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I will! I probably won't post for the next 24 hours.

I'm going home tomorrow!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm not thrilled by the sentiment that you think I need this (even it's irrelevant to the game at hand.)

I would need it with this player list. :/

And, yeah, I don't think you can hit some of your particular town notes as scum.

I don't think that's a controversial statement.

Thanks! After a month away I'll be very happy to see home!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery, for someone who is closely scrutinizing my interactions with other players, I am curious why you haven't commented on me ignoring all of Nacho's posts?

~ F-16

Close scrutiny is out the window atm. I've barely skimmed things enough to stay current on game events during the last couple of days. I'll be doing serious catch-up Wednesday sometime.

But, I'm kinda mulling over nacho's posts and the kagura/fox and hound stuff myself and haven't had much to say about them, so other players taking their time to size that up doesn't surprise me.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery, that's fine. I'll wait to hear your thoughts after you finish catching up with the game. Also, another thing I wondered when re-reading our earlier back-and-forth, why did you choose to ask me to elaborate on my Mac read in particular as opposed to reads that you are less certain about? For one, I already explained my read on Mac before you asked, and for another, your usual strategy seems to be to discuss more contentious reads as opposed to agreed upon ones, correct me if I am wrong here. I was going off of your 626 as an example.

god damn it I need to stop posting and get some sleep.

Actually what happened there was I got an unexpected reply and chased a shiny thing. Right after that I said something about the chronology being off.

I expected your heavy-duty reread to have surfaced new stuff. And I thought your earlier Mac read was written prior to your reread. When you said your Mac read had firmed up based on the reread, I thought you had new thoughts about him. When you basically restated your earlier read I realized something was off, possibly on my side regarding the timing of the reread.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: PeregrineV

I rather would entreat thy company
To see the wonders of the world abroad,
Than, living dully sluggardized at home,
Wear out thy youth with shapeless idleness.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Invitation denied.

Duly noted. We shall have to resortto vviolence instead.

At last I understand why people tunnel. It sucks to have two people who you want to savagely choke, squeezing and squeezing and squeezing until the very life drains out of them, but you can only get one. If this continues, we may become perturbed.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I thought walking dead vibes meant a scum list, which made no sense, but apparently that means town reads, which I guess is supported by des popping in to say all he still had was town reads, but not bother to expand.

Just popping in to do a skim and see what has happened today.

Wanted to clarify this.

desp's walking dead day 1 townbloc was phenomenal, and he worked with it the rest of the game. It contained one scum player. The last scum player to get lynched. Thor.

That's what walking dead vibes refers to in this game and in every game since then where I've seen him reference it.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hi ffery. We should have breakfast sometime.

that was beli. I'm not usually that bloodthirsty on day 1.

Hi.

I'm a little insulted that we didn't rate an ISO scan.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm townreading you.

I mean I'm paranoid as fuck about it (and probably will always and forever be paranoid about townreading you) but I'm townreading you. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Hi ffery. We should have breakfast sometime.

that was beli. I'm not usually that bloodthirsty on day 1.

Hi.

I'm a little insulted that we didn't rate an ISO scan.

Seriously, I quoted

Two Gentlemen of Verona

, how did you not get that was me?

As for the rest, we sometimes speak in the

pluralis majestis

. Look upon my works, ye mighty and...stop fucking laughing.

@Broderick : Both heads synch on you (although I thought it was just me until Ffery posted the above). We want you alive atm. Do not self-destruct.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

<3 nati

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery/Beli: PV's not a good lynch for today. Please consider Fox/Hound.

Not interested.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

This is town as fuck.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Except it isn't? It's the exact argument a scum-me would make to save my ass against players I know I'm caught against. Bring up weaknesses in my play (that are mostly true regardless of my alignment), bring up past games that show said weaknesses, appeal to said past games as comparisons, say "this is that, not this", and basically, appeal to aspects of my play in the current game that I specifically manipulated knowing about my own meta better than any other player.

Ceph isn't you.

I'm going to hold tight onto this read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ok, so bork is town, AP.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery, where are you and Beli at with your scumreads?

~ F-16

Not that different from last time. I might put up a reads list later today, but I'm still trying to digest some of the last couple days' posts.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

1: Just you, or the entire hydra?
2: Why not?
3: How 'bout AP? Any interest there?

1. Well, I posted "not interested" and Ffery said that 1305 was town as fuck...
2. Because they're town as fuck
3. Still trying to suss AP's alignment. Talk to Ffery about that, she wasn't scumreading you last time you came up. I am.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Will read 57/58 and such later, but...

Mastin wasn't a threat, she was a mislynch I thought I could get. And I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

^Ceph's take on me.

Posting quickly, be back much later.

50 shades of Christ what a scumpost.

-Beli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

the why was referring more to what have you done that is town

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum. That was the only time I thought as I was posting that I was being really town, but I think I've been quite town and unlike scum-me throughout as I've mentioned before, and Tammy's townread in particular makes me more confident that you would recognise this.

Nacho, if you're town, you need to stop this and show me that you are, because I'm trying to think of reasons why you're not scum here and I'm struggling.

Also, why does Mastin's claim need to be a fakeclaim?

Why would you have had to fake the Mastin thoughts and do the QT stuff?
I don't get it

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing he's going to claim is going to be his real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game. Do you disagree with that?

I'm not following your last paragraph?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yo ffery, is that you?

yep!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

:/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yo ffery, is that you?

yep!

Woohoo! We haven't had a chance to connect this game.

First thing's first re: you.

Up through 24, I have you as peripheral to the core of the game (mastin/Titan/RDB/CF/FoxHound). I also have you as having soft-pushed a bit on CF, but otherwise largely not taking stances on people within that group, instead focusing on Nacho/bork and GiF, and I have Orc having voted you (I think in response to one of those pushes, or as a reachout).

So, I guess a few things:

Have you taken more solid positions on that core group+APslot?

How do you feel about your interactions with Orc this game?

I've been peripheral to the core of my usual life for the last month or so.

Titan, RDB, and now FoxHound are pretty strong townreads.

CF less so, but it could be from feeling like my overall play style is in a state of flux and F-16's meta-based questioning of me gives me the feeling that I need to stay within my usual envelope, but it doesn't FIT.

mastin was a pretty good town read for me to start, less so for beli. We're both growing more concerned.

I dunno maybe we're delusional but I have never seen ceph look as town on day 1 as he looks this game and beli agrees that he's town as fuck.

I have a mixed read on AP atm. I'll probably go into more detail after I reread the last few pages a dozen times.

I could get really paranoid about orcinus, but in our direct interactions I've felt like he's town. In the early game, orcinus usually votes people he wants to talk to, as a way of getting their attention. His vote didn't concern me, but his disappearance for a stretch afterwards bothered me a little.

I'm not really focusing on nacho/bork. I think they're town. I could get all miffed that they apparently aren't interested in working through reads with me, but I've been somewhat cagey about my reads while I'm getting my head more into the game, so maybe the lack of cooperation is a factor of my floating a little this game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF less so, but it could be from feeling like my overall play style is in a state of flux and F-16's meta-based questioning of me gives me the feeling that I need to stay within my usual envelope, but it doesn't FIT.

Ffery, what do you mean by this?

Also, you said that you are concerned Nacho hasn't approached you with his reads but I see you haven't either. You had similar concerns with me early game. Do you generally prefer to be approached for comparing notes as opposed to pro-actively asking it of others?

~ F-16

Your post is actually a pretty good example of what I mean. What I generally prefer doesn't matter. I'm outside the general preferences envelope this game. You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect. For, me that's not the stuff reads are made of. The dance isn't choreographed in advance.

And I've actually reached out to nacho at least a couple times and haven't gotten much if anything in response.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ALSO SHE THINKS BREAKFAST WITH STALIN IS A FUNNY NAME
I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

So did we!

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

As I recall, your avatar said "Die, Scumfuck" at the time

But yeah, it was glorious for the one game where it lasted.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

So, ffery, given your current read-state, how to you view the narrative of mastin/Titan/RDB/CF/FoxHound/AP/myself based on your reads (i.e., who's doing what in terms of actions?)

hellifino

I'm refining reads on the basis of the interactions, but I don't have an overarching narrative about it. Not yet, anyway.

I've gone back and forth a little with you guys and had you in my scumpile at one point, but have more of a townfeel now that you're interacting.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

As I recall, your avatar said "Die, Scumfuck" at the time

But yeah, it was glorious for the one game where it lasted.

It still does

then we can blame you for that glorious name's demise.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Your post is actually a pretty good example of what I mean.

What I generally prefer doesn't matter. I'm outside the general preferences envelope this game.

You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect. For, me that's not the stuff reads are made of. The dance isn't choreographed in advance.

And I've actually reached out to nacho at least a couple times and haven't gotten much if anything in response.

Actually, I've been doing the opposite of that. I mentioned earlier that I am not going to emulate what I did in previous games and refine my play to be as pro-town as I can and if it doesn't match expectations, then those expectations will have to shift. I am not sure how you got the exact opposite impression from what I am saying.

I am asking about your general preference because it seemed rather odd to ask why someone isn't comparing notes with you as opposed to just saying "

here are my reads, what are your thoughts?

" or just asking what I thought of player X etc. But, I can buy that staying aloof and waiting to see who approaches you helps you get reads on those players. Your preference matters because it will help in developing a read and to establish a baseline although I am going to see a few past games for this.

~ F-16

Good luck with that. I just said in the post that prompted your inquiries that my usual envelope doesn't FIT. You may find some signs of change in some recently completed games. I really don't know. I haven't been happy with results lately. Something needs fixing.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

hands off is not a strategy, no. It's been a necessity at times. and it's probably going to affect how I see some stretches of day 1 later.

I've tended to take your inquiries about my "deviations" as expectations for how I should be playing.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Okay, I can see the hands-off approach as necessary based on the direction this game has taken.

I am still confused by this quote though:

You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect.

It seemed like you were saying I was trying to tailor my interactions as opposed to me expecting you to stay within an envelope. Can you clarify?

~ F-16

I probably put undue emphasis on your asking about my general preferences at first. I thought you were asking me how I want to be approached in the game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I was serious when I asked about having breakfast with you. I sorta forgot I asked in the flurry of other things swirling around, but iuf you could talk to me about your F-16 opinion and NachoBork opinion, that'd be super.

I'm not going to rush my F-16 read. I'd say that I'd like to see more of FourTrouble, but I'm much less familiar with his play than with F-16 so I'm probably better off trying to figure out the head I know better. From my perspective, living inside my own head and knowing how game events strike me and motivate me, I'm finding the stuff that he jumps on to be kinda meh. When I've been scum against town-him, that's not how I felt about his lines of questioning, so I dunno. Not knowing his alignment and not feeling like I'm under the meta Eye of Sauron, the questions just don't always seem like they'll be useful in sorting me. I try to cooperate when people are sorting me, but it helps if I have the sense that their questions will be useful.

But, I'm doing alot of rethinking about some recent badly failed reads. It's probably leading to some unintended changes as well as some that are more or less deliberate.

bork is town-bork. Nacho's doing weird shit, but it's shit almost guaranteed to raise eyebrows and tweak scumdars and it's probably part of some grand meta-evolution plan. He's evolving into something terrifying. :/

I'm shying away from reading him on a meta basis right now, and am thinking more on an individual body of work basis.

but his disappearance for a stretch afterwards bothered me a little.

He lurked bad in Xenosaga. I dunno, his attention feels right. It looks like hes taking things in with an open mind and not really pushing any bogus agenda.

I agree.

Huh, Im having more trouble than I should distinguishing the Stalin heads and that might be because I had only 4 hours of sleep last night.

I don't think my posting style is all that distinctive, outside of a few personal jargon/quirks that don't show up in every game. We're not trying to mimic each other, though we probably could with some success.

The Carbon/Stalin posts are bouncing off my brain so Im gonna pretend nothing really interesting happened there.
Woah full stop though, CF brought this up:

You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect.

What do you think of CF doing this? You sort of explained what you think he did that constitutes this, but do you think this is telling at all?[/quote]

If he were actually doing it, yeah. but, if he were actually trying to tailor his interactions for nefarious purposes, he'd probably be more subtle.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I had the distinct impression that you didn't know how your response to my push on you in Empire's game was alignment indicative.

Your distinct impression about your meta-push late day 1 was incorrect then, if that's what you're talking about. I knew what my reaction was. I've seen that kind of reaction pointed up as evidence pretty often. and I thought your assumption that it was unfake-able was incautious. At some point I certainly will be able to fake that. Maybe the point has been reached but hasn't been tested.

Perhaps you are more attuned to the stuff that gives you away when you are scum but aren't as self-aware when you are town?

That's probably true. I don't think I'm all that self-aware as town. It's not where my focus is.

But other than that, I am not sure why you have a ton of trouble sorting me considering I have a pretty massive body of work. Are there any positions you'd like me to explain in more detail?

I don't think I'm having a ton of trouble sorting you. Body of work reads take time.

I'm thinking about effect, not explanation.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If anyone reads a single one of my posts this game, make it this one.

Muffin. There is a chance you are town. You were in 169. Does this not look exactly, and I mean EXACTLY like what happened to me in that game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=400

I am not hard to win arguments against. Because I very often can't back up my actions. My stances sometimes don't make sense, and even when they do, I hardly know why I have the opinions I do.

If you really think it looks more like my tunnel on bulbafenix in 165, I can't help you. Because it doesn't. I actually won that argument because I got to make up nice-sounding reasons.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=200

I can't make those links work properly. But it really is worth bothering to look at them.

All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing. It's seeming as though the people who normally prevent me from being a free mislynch are not interested. This bothers me, but whatever. Scum appear to have figured this out. Without them I'm little better than 2008 consistent day 1 lynch cephrir. Maybe it's not the people I think it is, but they will be on this wagon. That's not a threat, it's a promise.

I feel like the gang up on me here feels exactly like 169, and I think the people I'm fighting with are going to turn out to be scum again. Please actually think about this and make this the one time you all don't completely ignore someone posthumously if I am indeed lynched today. That is all.

This is town as fuck.

I think I second this, and have retracted my scumread on Fox at the minute. They're still null because I think their reasons for pushing RBD are poor, but that post was good.

UNVOTE:

I hope you don't mind being drafted into my townbloc.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

GiF!

What are your reads?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

What do you think is your most controversial read?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Obviously me and RBD?

muttering under my breath about tromping through my lines of questioning.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

OK, I don't want to kill PV anymore.

UNVOTE:

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I hope you don't mind being drafted into my townbloc.

I have very little issues, but may I ask who else is in it?

I have a bunch of townreads of various strengths atm, but only 1 other candidate for townbloc. Possibly 2. I need a little more data.

I'll probably post a reads list tonight or tomorrow.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

This game is classic. It's almost page 65 and I'm talking about maybe posting a reads list.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I don't know what to make of Pere's posting though; I feel he'll always be a damn enigma to me :/

Get the fuck out of my head, that's where I keep my saved-up jokes.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

bork, what are your thoughts about GiF's reads list?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

my mastin read has gotten a little tattered. I need to work on it. beli is thinking scum, though.

ns' activity really has been low sitewide recently from what I've seen. I'm going to wait and see what he brings to the game over the weekend I guess.

Kat is Katsuki is CupcakePanda.

speaking of beer when I got back from FL and consigned myself to a dogfish head-free existence, I was pleasantly surprised to find their 90 minute IPA available at bevmo. I'm a happy camper.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

To make that clear: I don't really read him either way. I don't see anything town there,
but like every time I've seen a lurkderp case pushed early game they've pretty much always flipped town (except your discode thing which was fucking awesome)

-b

I don't have a read that fits the discode mold this time. :/

Not yet, anyway.

but, I think my flandre read in xenosaga was pretty awesome too.

Where are you guys with mastin and fox?

-b

we're both townreading fox. we're not synched on mastin. I had an early townread, and may be talking myself back into mastin-town. maybe. beli is scumreading him.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

Yeah the why is pretty much summed up in post 1446

[Breakfast With Sandy]

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

Ok I can't mobile so no quote cutting. Or apparently overriding shit autocorrect .

I hate mastin's attitude towards F/H and the logical fallacy that is painting Ceph's attitude towards her lynchability as independent of gamestate. The townmastin I know is smarter than that and I don't think mastin actually believes that harseshit this game, but false face must hide what false heart doth know .

Ffery is probably the only reason I havenae been lynched for dead wood pages ago, so I'll not vote mastin without her leave, but I'M WORKING ON IT.

I want to correctly lynch an ace of mastin's caliber so bad it's like I haven't peed in a month, though. I MUST HAVE THIS.

--DrunkBeli

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I can't parse what is scummy about that

-b

It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.

I wish I knew whether nacho is sheeping me or if he genuinely is townreading ceph.

his PV vote worries me too, but all of that pretty much fades in the blinding town light that you've been pouring over the gamescape.

p-edit your avatar is adorable.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

it is 2014 and my wireless network just went down one sec

Must...resist....perverted...comment

[Breakfast With Sandy]

It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.

Are we talking about mastin or ceph?

-b (I was gonna stop signing for the night considering nacho isn't around but fuck that, ISO clarity for posterity)

that rhymes

This game has had an incredible amount of spontaneous verse. I approve.

It's mastin's ceph read that troubles me most. So...yes?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

p-edit: I am having trouble discerning where beli's read ends and your commentary on it begins.

then I'll leave it for beli to expound upon his read. It's a point of mild dissonance for us.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Beli, where are you at with your reads on Rancid and AP?

~ F-16

Rancid town and amusing as fuck.

I dunno about AP. I've been fooled before, but I can't decide on paranoia alone. You might say I have...

Bats in my Beliffery.

*shades*

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Like am I actually fucking off the mark?

-b

Must...resist...perverted...comment

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bats in my Beliffery.

I've been anticipating this pun

all


gameday


long

[Breakfast With Sandy]

At least I didnae shitpost for long enough to get us lynched for it as planned.

Pedit: so AP town. Good to know.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

At least I didnae shitpost for long enough to get us lynched for it as planned.

Pedit: so AP town. Good to know.

sigworthy imo

I can't parse what is scummy about that

^
Like, normally. If I do something scummy, I can tell I've done something scummy. I can get why people see something suspicious about me, even if I know they're ultimately wrong. I'll recognize it, acknowledge it, and then move on.

...But Beli? You're high on something, 'cause I really can't follow

that

.

Okay in what way is mastin town your rock?

Yaaa, mastin is either scum or channeling House Party mastin this game. I suspect the latter, but either way.

Fuck it.

VOTE: Angry Pidgeon.

Not like my vote actually counts anyway. Might as well place it here to make a statement.

Rancid town and amusing as fuck.

For the record.

Anyone with Rancid as town has reason to strongly believe me as town.
Anyone with AP somehow as town (they really shouldn't) has reason to strongly believe me to be town. (Heck, even if they think AP's scum they should still be thinking me town anyway. )
Anyone who has BOTH as town (although they're wrong on AP) should also have me as essentially conftown, since AP and zMuff are the only two players I can think of off the top of my head to instinctively, 100%, "get" me and never misread me.

Granted, that relies on trusting them (you should trust Rancid), and only applies if you townread them (some scumread both, oddly), butyeah.

I dunno about AP. I've been fooled before, but I can't decide on paranoia alone.

AP's just scum.

I've admittedly wavered a bit here and there. But he's just...not town.

mastin, the thing that shakes the ffery-head's read is your stance on ceph. I just don't get how you aren't feeling town-sincerity dripping from that post I called out.

And I don't get why you think scum-ceph would follow the xenosaga playbook given the player overlap. wifom, but still there's a limit to the number of reflections-on-reflections-on-reflections that I'm willing to entertain.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

mastin how confident are you in my reads?

how confident should I be in your reads?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

mastin how confident are you in my reads?

What

reads?

(If you mean in general, though...enough to want to synch, not enough to blindly sheep.)

I mean in general. I've been pretty quiet about my reads so far except where I feel they're extraordinarily strong or they're extraordinarily against the prevailing currents.

which is pretty much business as usual for me in a large theme game.

how confident should I be in your reads?

My confidence is 95% on the stronger reads. But since I could be arrogantly pushing the wrong areas...oh, I'd say...about 80%? Seems about right; my stronger reads you can be 80% confident about. (Some much higher, some much lower.)

where the rubber met the road in the last game we played together as town, when it came to who got lynched, my reads were more accurate than yours most of the time.

What is it that I should be seeing? What should tell me that THIS time I should subsume my reads and follow yours?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I want to correctly lynch an ace of mastin's caliber so bad it's like I haven't peed in a month, though. I MUST HAVE THIS.

So cheeky. Probably town cheek but I -could- see this being from scum.

I dunno about AP. I've been fooled before, but I can't decide on paranoia alone. You might say I have...

This means you are leaning town on me but paranoid? Im p sure the only reason anyone's paranoid is because mastin keeps accusing me of generically vague crap like "Im just trying t5o look town" which doesnt actually mean anything and that Im playing to Antihero mafia which is laughable.

It's kinda cool that you picked up 2 beli posts to respond to.

For myself, I've been thinking about your replacing into a highly suspected town slot in that normal fun micro. That happened a lot closer to deadline, which could explain your being a lot less frenetic here.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Im p sure the only reason anyone's paranoid is because mastin

No, I'm paranoid because I was in Antihero too and got fooled pretty fucking badly. I'm not putting any weight behind what mastin's saying -- I'm scumreading her.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ok, I won a game against you as mafia.

It wasn't the winning, it was that I was townreading you so hard I burned

multiple watcher shots

on you.

I'd be paranoid even if we'd managed to win.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP,

kagura has done a fair bit more than circlejerk about being obvtown. In fact, the obvtown-bork talk has mostly been from players who are townreading him, not from him. He showed some paranoia about me townreading him as quickly as I did, which is reasonable (because I have "townread" him as scum quite early - see xenologue mini theme for an example). The fact that I usually can call him town early in games where I'm town is far from a guarantee that I'm town in any specific game.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Bork: I've gotten better at reading fery between our last town game and now

Also exams+modding a mish mash game

Ill be back here soon

This really doesn't give me any sort of warm fuzzy about your townread. And you were kinda waffly about whether my early townread on you was scummy or not.

Also, you saw me as scum put down a pretty unearned strong town read on Nacho in the nati game. It hasn't even crossed your mind that I could have been doing the same to you?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If we want to lynch scum today (and do so easily!), we could kill the person who we're still voting who happens to be diving the fuck under the radar and following his scum meta to a T (which I feel has been pointed out several times by many different people, and yet this never gets acted on because...?). We can additionally lynch orc who is incredibly disengaged, having weird interactions with ffery (paranoia is usually the overarching theme when he's town, and this isn't one of those games where ffery should be a ride or die townread for orc. Xenosaga was one of those games, but this is not.)

Talk to me about how this is pere's scum meta as opposed to town. I have an ingrained habit of always scumreading him and I'm strongly inclined to follow beli's read here.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

loled.

and I read all of it. so I saw what you did there. I'll respond to bits and pieces later today after adequate amounts of coffee

Mac, my reads list will be up later today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Can we have beli up and explaining this

Yep!

In fact, the first part of that should also answer Broderick's question.

Starting with meta : I've only seen DV play twice, once as each alignment, and in both cases he drew a lot of fire for reasons I don't understand -- I'm thinking because he's got a kind of friendly vibe that's not popular in current site meta -- which makes him eminently lynchable. At least, scum-me would see him as a lynch target by default. So, when that pattern started repeating itself here, I started looking for scum on the Fox/Hound wagon. IIRC I got on this track about the same time or a bit earlier than I laid down a vote on PV, so there was no actual

wagon

there, but I looked at the wagon-in-spirit of players who were gunning for Fox/Hound. I didn't find much that pinged me, but I got a kind of amorphous, intuitive creepy vibe from Mastin. It wasn't enough to go on, especially with Ffery townreading her, but it was enough for me to go all shields-up-red-alert. That's why I asked ProHawk to have a look at the wagon -- I wanted to see if he'd find the same thing unprompted. I couldn't get that second opinion from Ffery, because I already told her about this in our hydra QT, and besides, I was scum hunting within her townreads.

The next ping was when she went after Muffinati and brought up his Don Corleone. Burden of Proficiency is not just a harseshit argument, it's a logical fallacy. Before this game, I've only played with town-mastin and I've not seen her encouraging harseshit thought processes, let alone espousing them. I think I've already talked about this in-thread: Mastin definitely does not believe that Muffin's scummy win is germane to the game. She's trying to manipulate the town into playing badly.

The last part is when she quoted Cephrir's Dead QT from another game talking about her as a mislynch target. If it looks like I snarled at her for that because I've been saving up "50 Shades of Christ" for too long and was dying to use it, it's because that's actually true. However, I

do

perceive that Dead QT quote as a scumpost, because it paints Cephrir as the kind of player who is contemptuous enough of mastin's ability to see her as an easy mislynch

regardless of game state

and that's a mountain of rubbish so tall it's visible from the fucking moon. (Yeah, I know, it looks like that contradicts my viewpoint vis-a-vis DV, but that's a paradox, not a contradiction: DV's play this game, and the playerlist's reaction to it, is consistent with what I've observed in Doctor Who and Gundam SEED, and thus is not altered by game state this time around. This contrasts with how the game state has altered my perception of Mastin -- Before this game, I would have thought of her as a player who is too useful to lynch and who furthermore I would have so much difficulty lynching that it would be apposite to apply Shaheed's Law to her alignment every time I see her on the player list. This game, though, my view is altered by the gamestate)

@Muffin

: To more properly answer your question, my PV vote was half scum bait. My meta view on PV is that he always starts out useless as fuck and then hauls out the big guns late-game when there's enough data to analyse that most peoples' brains shut down at the enormity of the task, and PV just grinds through it and produces useful results. That means that starting an early-game wagon on town-PV would be likely to draw scum on the wagon, and I'm uncertain enough of PV's alignment that I wouldn't be sorry if that bait-wagon went to lynch. Essentially, I was willing to sacrifice PV to nail scum. Furthermore, due to PV's traditional early-game lack of content, I can't form a read on him, and I can see scum-PV riding that "useless as fuck early stage" meta into late game, where the "big guns" I'd be looking for would fail to materialise, but by then it would be too late. I'm not interested in trying to kill him anymore because his usefulness as bait has collapsed given that I have to come out into the open about why I want to kill mastin, and no scum would take the bait of a me-led PV wagon when I'm taking the opposite stance in my argument against mastin.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

That wasn't meant to be so tl;dr, but I don't see anything in it that I can cut. I'm a bad writer.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

heh.

We're working though our own townbloc PoE atm. I think we townbloc from a different philosophy than you do. A strong town read doesn't automatically equate to a townbloc ticket from my perspective.

While beli is scumreading you, I probably won't be trying to build consensus with you. And while your reads and play are as chaotic as they've been since AP joined the game and DespBro became active, I wouldn't be able to build consensus with you regardless of beli's read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

actually, beli doesn't townbloc at all. He's going along with my efforts in that direction because he's a dead game sport.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also MafiaSSK was the head that brought up the scummy thing, iirc, and I'm not sure how likely he would be to do that as either alignment, but then MafiaSSK is one of those players that, like, I could picture pushing me because the teeth in my avatar don't look town. Soooooooo I'm not putting any weight on that.

Then wherefore did mastin respond in defence of that stance, instead of MafiaSSK popping in and saying "yo that was me"?

Also, how does it change that calling attention to your Don Corleone is unalloyed FUD?

Assuming me-town, where do you stand? Approximately, anyway.

In short? Behind Ffery. She's got more experience than me with everyone on this playerlist, and some solid townreads on players that I can't get any reads on at all, and knows where I'm biased enough to be useless.

Neither of us have any particularly strong scumreads, with the exception of my read on you, but the players furthest on the scum side of her T->S continuum are filled with people I wouldn't cry over losing.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

towntowntown (nascent townbloc)

Mac
GiF - at the time he posted his reads list I was p amazed at how closely it matched my own thoughts. And I'd been pretty cagey with my thoughts at that point. I think the points of synchronicity were genuine.
kagura

Town

Rancid Broderick Drake
Fox & Hound
Titan
Carbon Fiber
orcinus

Maybe Town

Just Sheep Us - not scum with AP?
Red Garydos - strong townread went stale, but I do p much like the stuff that Brian has been posting today.
Cupcake Panda
AP - not scum with BroDesp? AP read has faded. I'm not sure if it's an influenced fade, but maybe.
Lord Business
Clyton
Peregrine

Not So Town

MastinSSK (scum read for beli, null/null-town for ffery)

list isn't seriatim

Not a lot of scum reads. :/

Right now I'd draw my don't-lynch-above-this line just below RG.

In answer to the question I asked GiF (and am still waiting for an answer), I would say that my most controversial read is GiF, given his very low level of activity so far. But, the reads list he posted mirrored my impressions at that point in time more strongly than anything else I've seen in the game thread.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

GiF - at the time he posted his reads list I was p amazed at how closely it matched my own thoughts. And I'd been pretty cagey with my thoughts at that point. I think the points of synchronicity were genuine

I swear I've seen you use this as reasoning for town-reading me when I've been scum a couple times before.

yeah I have in a couple of past games, though it usually doesn't last with you as scum. I think I wound up going from a strong town read to null-ish in the marketplace game before I died.

Do you think GIF is incapable of doing that as scum or do you just think that your reads are so out of whack with the general consensus that it would be unusual for GIF-scum to have the same reads?

He hasn't been capable before that I can recall offhand. And sometimes when we're both town we don't synch that well. scum-GiF has gotten townreads from me for other reasons, though.

I do feel kind of out of synch with most of the player list right now. Some of my townreads aren't synching that well with each other, either. The game feels kind of a mess to me right now.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

If you've been reading my posts, why didn't you respond to my question?

your question about fuckballs? beli will have to answer that.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Or the overruling question? I meant to go back and see if I could figure out what you're talking about, but I forgot, I guess. What were you talking about? when did we overrule GiF?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

#45 may be the best Brian Skies post I've ever read.

I object.

Overruled

Here?

ah, that was beli, too. I thought they were both goofing around some.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

1872: so now is when I press you on your early townread of me. How did that diminish, or was it just never as strong as you suggested?

It hasn't changed. You're in the town group. I haven't forced an order onto the subgroup lists.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Right now I'd draw my don't-lynch-above-this line just below RG.

naming a single person here rather than a section implies ordered lists

I can see coming away with that impression. The list was made and has been sitting in our hydra QT for several hours before I posted it. Most of the commentary came as I was writing the post. I looked at the maybe town list, thinking who would I not want to vote right now? And the top two sprang out. Just Sheep Us has been trending upward. RG was in a long slide from a decent town read prior to Brian's posts. With both of them, I could consider moving them up to the next group.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

#45 may be the best Brian Skies post I've ever read.

I object.

Overruled

Here?

Yes, that was an ordinary pun.

"Fuckballs" was just because I hydraslipped and I don't hydraslip.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

1872: so now is when I press you on your early townread of me. How did that diminish, or was it just never as strong as you suggested?

It hasn't changed. You're in the town group. I haven't forced an order onto the subgroup lists.

You guys really need to work on finding someone or 3 you want to lynch today because lts face it. There is always a thor665 in the townblock.

that's why my townbloc is pretty small. my reads list has a few players I'm willing to lynch today.

You should have an idea by now of who you dont want to lynch today.

I think maybe you didn't read my reads list all that closely.

Stop this Stallin' and make a move on, jesus.

that's not punny.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Okay, let me know when discussions begin.

reads list?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Tammy, here's who I think is town (will provide reasons later): Titan, Kagura, Mac, Fox, Breakfast, Orc, Red Gyarados, Lord Business
Scum are among: Rancid, MastinSSK, JustSheepUs, Cupcake, Clyton, ElementalHawk, Yukari, PereV

I need to refine this list a little and I'll re-read each of them to make sure.
~ F-16

I was going to be more verbose but iPad so lololololol. I'll probably do something more tomorrow but near sleeping and on iPad so!

The people I have as town are in (kagura? - question mark cuz would like yo see more nacho - Mac, Orc, redg, maybe breakfast and cf, I'm leaning more town on you but Arthur has you guys as scum and I want to see where that's coming from, oh and I have fox as town and Arthur is leaning more m way on that I think?

I would like cupcake to stop with the caps, but leaning town there and there were some early rancid posts I liked.

My biggest scum reads right now are hawk and just sheep us.

agree witht the town reads. not seeing just sheep us as a big scum read, though and would have liked to see more about why on this.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

VOTE: The Fox n Hound
even

Cool thanks

Tammy, fery, bork are town.

Your predecessor was pretty scummy but I'm leaning town due to the replace

I'm getting a leeeeetle worried about f16 but lets slap him just below bork on "levels of towniness"

Cephrir is scum

You're caught up!

What's your Mac read? What's your AP read? Has anything changed in the above?

See, this level of disagreement among my townreads about someone with as much data in the game as fox/hound really throws my sense of consensus-coming-together off. You haven't said why you think Ceph is scum aside from basically meta.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

But this AP is flat-out commanding, demanding, and bluntly, derisive. Which are not traits of his town self. Town-AP pushes who he wants to, but he pushes as a person largely by himself. Scum-AP, shown here, is largely focused on controlling the flow of the game.

I disagree that town AP doesn't work to control the flow of the game. I have pretty limited in-game experience with him, but work toward cadence control is something I've seen from him in the past.

There are some players for whom that kind of control effort isn't a scum tell.

Would like nati's thoughts on that, because he's one of the few players I've run into at MS who analyze games via cadence. but it looks unlikely that he'll be caught up and in the moment enough to really nail something like that down this game day.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

That may well be what we wind up doing.

How does his claimed role and the evidence that his vote doesn't count sound for a scum role though?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I remember that. The kagami lynch pissed me off royally.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

and that's kinda part of what bugs me this game. You're reaching out way more than you did on day 1 of that game, like you think I'm more manipulable in this hydra than I am in sangres or something.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery. stop being useless. Its making you hard to read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think I did mention it before that I was admittedly hasty. I rather have the 100 pages before deciding on a vote than a reckless vote. Looking back, I have suspicions on Mastin's approach which I have overlooked in my voting decision; some reasons are already said by AP. Likewise, I was already confident in Mastin being town, so I do not understand AP's decision to vote for her just because of her distractions coming from her approach. Is it rather hard to just avoid her and focus on your other reads, or to passively defend against an accusation?

In other words, I see both of you in the wrong and in the right, and in my perspective where I am seeing either side that is gaining no bearings on the other,

it would be best to focus elsewhere

.

town.

This noise is fucking awesome for scum regardless of either of your alignments because it's p much burying all other content.

so yeah, town.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

F-16 can you list who you currently have as town and scum?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

EXCEPT LITERALLY ALL MY FUCKING POSTING HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON GETTING SCUM TICKED OFF ENOUGH TO NIGHTKILL ME.

bullshit

VOTE: MastinSSK

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Sure. I won't do the townbloc/other town thing because in an ideal world, I'd work with all of the town.

In an ideal world it's possible to. :/

I sometimes take a super-inclusive approach to townblocking, but lately it hasn't worked out that well when I do. In fact, lately finding one or two players I feel like I can really work with on reads is doing pretty damn good.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ok so re the claim.

I can see the role in a cabd game, after something similar was used in a game with a somewhat botched design that he and I played. And there was a much less interesting modified treestump role in a tales upick mini that was wrecked almost before it started (and incidentally directly led to the tales mafia trilogy this game is a part of.

And I can see the role as either alignment, though kinda sorta want/hope it would be a town role.

Mastin, if this is your idea of how to draw a night kill, I don't know what to say.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Ffery can I cash in the trust card from Song Contest to get you are to see Mastin is town.

Both muffin and I are 100% certain on this read, and we correctly read her as scum in both the Open and Attack on Titan. The downright fact is, if we are wrong on this, we are collectively awful.

Muffin and in are already at our wits end with this player list so please please please trust us.

Also f-16 is scum.

F-16
AP
DespBro

At minimum two scum in that list.

UNVOTE

I'll go that far for now. But, Nati you're going to have to be here and active and

town

if you want to cash that card in.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

^ How much interest do you guys having in lynching PV?

Nacho was scum with PV in a recent game we played. Nacho is voting PV iirc. I want to talk with him about that.

For myself, I am aware I have a tendency to see his play as scummy lately regardless of his alignment. I'm cautious about the read.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also could you tell me what posts give you the impression that Kagura is town?

pretty much every borkpost in the thread.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Yeah, reading them as scum-together kinda blew my mind.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I was trying to go through your iso and figure out your mastin read earlier today, F-16. It's not clear at all why you think she's scum.

Re my reaction to their interaction, it's a moving target. I've gone back and forth on mastin, but the only thing that caused a complete wtf was stating that her play today has been designed to draw a scum night kill.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

the only thing that caused a complete wtf was stating that her play today has been designed to draw a scum night kill.

You need to think like Mastin

I understood what was being said there

It makes sense when you realise who Mastin thinks is scum (AP) and that Mastin was going for the I'm-going-to-make-you-dead-no-matter-how-long-it-takes-me-this-game angle

*shrug*

It makes sense except there's no what-if-I'm-wrong? calculation involved in the algorithm.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I was trying to go through your iso and figure out your mastin read earlier today, F-16. It's not clear at all why you think she's scum.

It progressed through the pages:

1) My initial scumread - I don't think Mastin's push on us was genuine.

2) Later on, he pushed the Fox and the Hound even though their responses were incredibly genuine. His post about Ceph viewing him as a mislynch was bad.

3) His role takes away one town vote. Rancid's role requires one less vote to lynch. What do you think of that?

~ F-16

The hated part of Rancid's role is the new miller role in ms meta IMO. A game designer almost has to pair it with something else for a town role. And it's a nice feedback loop for the player who draws the role, because it makes using the gladiator option riskier.

I don't think you realized how you came off in the early game, with the obvtown declaration on relatively thin soup, and how weakly supported your 180 on Titan looked. Probably the only reason I gave it the credence I did was because of your reaction test of me in 169, which also looked objectively weak to me, and raised some questions about your alignment that I harbored for a good while afterwards.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@AP: earlier you said that Mastin is clearly Town, but due to recent developments, you are inclined to believe she is scum based on her behavior and actions towards you. Let me ask: is she your strongest scumread and therefore, you are voting her based on that? (Also, is this scum level stronger than she is town level?) Or do you just want to lynch her because she is the "weakest link" to the town and that there is no other viable scummy options at the moment?

No, I think Kagura is probably my favorite pick for scum right now. A side of Carbon and PV. Id probably rather lynch any of these 3 than mastin, but Ive long since given up on wagoning CF and Kagura. Mastin seems determined to accuse me of bussing PV and then not actually do anything when I suggest we wagon PV, so ya. Mastin is a fine place to vote unless people want to lynch my other picks.

Y u no lynch RBD with me

reads that would be relatively easy become conflicted messes when players I kinda think are town scumread each other so doggedly.

why do you think RBD is scum?

and ask desp if he thinks scum-nati would spend the Song uPick trust card today.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Also, ffery I am not really seeing why you have trouble following my thought process or play in this game. Compared to Mastin, Muffin/Nati, and AP who have literally buried this thread under an avalanche of back-and-forths that bear no purpose to the thread other than make it difficult for the other players to catch up and post, I think the scum motivation is rather obvious here. Nati complaining about the game state and blaming it on me (and Titan) isn't something that actually makes sense considering he also commended Mastin and AP for their "brevity." Sure, he also commended you and your posts aren't noise by any means, but his overall representation of the gamestate is hugely off. Whether it makes him scummy is debatable but it is clear to me who has an interest in progressing the game and who is trying to bury it. Since you've been pretty cagey about your thoughts, I am not sure how you are viewing this game or where you are coming from and I'd like to see it. I also want to know if you think Nati's complaints about the game have any merit whatsoever considering the stuff he and Muffin are posting, and their choices in who and what to engage and how. At this point in time, you're the only player here that I trust has read every post written in this game and has read what I read and seen what I saw. What do you want to do with the rest of this day? How can we optimize the remaining time we have and help the town the most?

~ F-16

You're talking about post 1158?

That post was not long after AP replaced in, and before most of the shit hit the fan.

I understood where he was coming from, but I also know how 169 was getting to him and killing his interest in the game at times.

I'm part of the problem, though, when it comes to the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

@AP: earlier you said that Mastin is clearly Town, but due to recent developments, you are inclined to believe she is scum based on her behavior and actions towards you. Let me ask: is she your strongest scumread and therefore, you are voting her based on that? (Also, is this scum level stronger than she is town level?) Or do you just want to lynch her because she is the "weakest link" to the town and that there is no other viable scummy options at the moment?

No, I think Kagura is probably my favorite pick for scum right now. A side of Carbon and PV. Id probably rather lynch any of these 3 than mastin, but Ive long since given up on wagoning CF and Kagura. Mastin seems determined to accuse me of bussing PV and then not actually do anything when I suggest we wagon PV, so ya. Mastin is a fine place to vote unless people want to lynch my other picks.

Y u no lynch RBD with me

reads that would be relatively easy become conflicted messes when players I kinda think are town scumread each other so doggedly.

why do you think RBD is scum?

and ask desp if he thinks scum-nati would spend the Song uPick trust card today.

This read really shouldn't be that hard.

They've done nothing all game but make or support shit pushes. From the onset, with mastin attacking Tammy for... no good reason, they were immediately buddied up. There's a quote from Mean Girls that's pretty apt here:



There's also the whole burying the thread in noise thing and the alt-slipping and pretending to be each other to obfuscate who is thinking what, but that's more "icing on the cake" than "needed to demonstrate their scumminess"

the alt-slipping and pretending to be each other has become a running gag, and has (sadly) been one of the more enjoyable things in what has turned out to be a serious pain of a game. The "noise" they've contributed pales in comparison to some of the other noise.

And keep in mind that despite the fact that mastin and AP have dominated this game in recent days, earlier today Titan was still 100 posts ahead of the next most prolific poster.

I own some of the blame because I disengaged rather than yelling about how helpful to scum that kind of thread-noise is.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

You're talking about post 1158?

That post was not long after AP replaced in, and before most of the shit hit the fan.

I understood where he was coming from, but I also know how 169 was getting to him and killing his interest in the game at times.

I'm part of the problem, though, when it comes to the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

The thing about 169 is that I could tell that Maraca were a bad push even as I pushed them. That's why I jumped off so easily. Me and Mara/Cabd both got too involved in pushing each other and I could see why Nati would say that my posts were bad at that point because the overall push was just bad from both sides. But I don't any of my pushes in this game were "bad" or something I would regret and apologize at endgame for. I get the 180 on Titan but it is what it is and I explained it as well as I could and it is up to others to figure it out.

Nati and I didn't have any trouble bouncing thoughts off of each other in later days in 169 either.

I didn't understand where he was coming from in Post 1158. It didn't make sense to me. What's the background, i.e. where is he coming from with regard to this game?

~ F-16

I said where he's coming from in that post:

the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I think you screwed that quote up. I didn't say it was obfuscating. I said it was a running gag.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

the extinction of <30 page day 1s.

That wasn't as in-depth as I hoped but okay. If I stretch, maybe I can buy he wanted numerically lower number of posts and were complaining about the most prolific posters. But what's the big picture? Why are Rancid town?

~ F-16

You have to unpack it, sorry. I assumed you'd probably picked some of this up from meta-ing some of the games he's played. He wants a game that doesn't move at a speed such that coming back after 24 hours you're looking at 2-3 hours slog to really catch up. he wants a game where deadline lynch scrambles aren't a thing.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

the alt-slipping and pretending to be each other has become a running gag, and has (sadly) been one of the more enjoyable things in what has turned out to be a serious pain of a game. The "noise" they've contributed pales in comparison to some of the other noise.

And keep in mind that despite the fact that mastin and AP have dominated this game in recent days, earlier today Titan was still 100 posts ahead of the next most prolific poster.

I own some of the blame because I disengaged rather than yelling about how helpful to scum that kind of thread-noise is.

It's not enjoyable. Do you know what's enjoyable? Scum getting lynched. Not scum doing stupid schticks because they feel like it.

Look at the interactions that lead Tammy to spam-post as hard as she did. She was the central figure in this game for a very long time. Why was that the case?

Because mastin and RBD started attacking her relentlessly for no good reason.

And yelling about how helpful thread-noise is to scum does jack shit; fixing the problem

by removing the scum who are causing it

it how to deal with it.

Then why aren't you yelling for mastin/ap blood?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

also, wait...what relentless attacking of Tammy by RBD?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Uh. He is voting mastin? And all my spam is ABOUT mastin so that can be expected to be resolved by removing mastin. Why you post that?

or by removing you. which is my point. if it's a noise thing then mastin/you are a bigger problem than mastin/rbd.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I have been yelling for mastin blood, but have made it fairly clear that I'd prefer RBD first (95+% chance at scum flip is technically better than a 90% chance scum flip)

I would be yelling for AP blood if I were scum reading him.

pedit: I don't remember specifics of the attack, just the pretty arrows of RBD defending mastin and attacking whomever she attacked.

I think maybe you should review their iso or something. they've mentioned tammy/titan in 27 posts.

I think they've mentioned me more often, and iirc they've for the most part of day 1 had me as less town than Tammy/Titan.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

ffery, let me draw you a pretty objectives hierarchy:

Tier 1 objective:

Town Wincon.

Tier 2 objectives:

1) Lynch Scum
2) Remove Noise.

Now, let's look at what means objectives of "Lynch mastin," "Lynch AP," and "Lynch RBD" get us:

Lynch mastin: Fulfills 2, very likely fulfills 1.

Lynch AP: Fulfills 2 less than above objective, very unlikely fulfills 1.

Lynch RBD: Fulfills 2 the least, most likely to fulfill 1.

Now, given that I value 1 over 2 by a fairly significant weighting (noise bothers me a lot less than scum being alive), my optimal choice is to lynch RBD. Regardless of how one biases the two tier-2 objectives, lynching AP is always wrong, since lynching mastin better fulfills both objectives.

I agree with you re the hierarchy of objectives, but we part ways in a very fundamental way on the RBD read.

This reminds me a little of the indie upick micro and what your desp scumread did to my impression of your reads overall. :/

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I flipped on that read eventually.

That was also the game where everyone called me bad for my Grimgroove read that formed around the same time that actually ended up being right so...

That was kinda my point. I almost wrote something about it earlier but decided it was meh.

If you're town, I don't want to discount everything because I disagree vehemently on one or two things.

That's true of all my townreads.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF, I don't remember if you ever said what specific impressions changed when you reread Tammy - what posts you reinterpreted, etc. If it's in your iso could you link it?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF, I don't remember if you ever said what specific impressions changed when you reread Tammy - what posts you reinterpreted, etc. If it's in your iso could you link it?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

AP, you mean mastin and RBD.

And ffery, go read RBD's posts. I even quoted two incredibly relevant posts for you to look at.

Yes you did. An early vote.

Are you of the school of thought that voting or FoSing Tammy early day 1 is a scum claim?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I plan on being on after 10p your time ffery. Working right now.

Nati says rain check - net issues. He'll be on tomorrow.

Damn it.

beli and I will discuss compromises when he's online again.

I need to convince myself that Lord Business should be off the table.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

CF, I don't remember if you ever said what specific impressions changed when you reread Tammy - what posts you reinterpreted, etc. If it's in your iso could you link it?

I am going to spoiler my response to cut the walls. Feel free to skip if you are not ffery.

Spoiler: ffery

Look, if you are trying to sort me, I'll help you out. I don't really think you understand how I play this game nor are you making an effort to. (Well, I think you are town and are making an effort to read me obviously but you are going about it in a way that isn't going to reveal my alignment.)

I don't make bad or sub-optimal plays as town. I sometimes overlook things that are clearer to me on a re-read. Like the read on Titan. I overlooked it the first time but when I re-read the same information a second time, I found alignment revealing info. I'm happy to explain this and work with you on it even if it means I am doing this for the fourth time in this game if I at least saw some effort from you in moving the game forward as opposed to a complete lack of reaction to my asking how you are reading Rancid as town, and to how you think we can best make use of the rest of this day (which I am surprised you ignored). I probably will end up doing it anyways at some point.

My reaction test in NY169 wasn't objectively useless. I probably won't try it again because it is atypical of my playstyle. And if you really want to know the difference between your town and scum reactions to handling disagreements in reads, you are more evasive as scum, but confrontational as town. That's why I interpreted your refusal to work with me in Micro 252 as you being scum, and the same thing in NY169 as you being town. I guess you could fake it but it ties more into circumstances. It is like you said towards the beginning of this game about Bork. A lot of things can be faked but the entire situation needs to be considered. I can tell why it is difficult for us to work together this game because the pushes I made so far are to some extent reactionary - accusing people based on a conflict I had with them as opposed to doing it in an "unbiased" third party view. I understand your general condescension towards anyone that pushes players in that way and if I played in the way I played in HPCOS for instance, I assume you'd be happy to sync on reads. But play depends on the gamestate and I get reads of varying strengths when I get them.

In any case, the things you are looking for that you believe that I do as town (develop townblocks off of other players reads for instance) are not going to happen because I don't actually do that and those assumptions on your part stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of my playstyle. You mentioned before that you were looking for "parallels" to that here. Problem is, the parallels will be non-existent since they are not part of my playstyle. I already made a post explaining this but if you go hunting to see where I townblocked based on another players reads so you can put me as town, you won't find it because it came out of something you misinterpreted. And like I pointed out, my 5 strongest town reads on NY169 were based almost entirely off of my own reads.

Failing you realizing how to interpret my play, find someone who actually does understand my play or syncs up and works with me smoothly and easily and ask their opinion. Nacho for example is a good candidate for that because he knows my playstyle incredibly well, better than anyone else on this site. Tammy does too and we have a fairly good understanding of how we get our reads and how we can sync. Even Beli probably has a more in-depth understanding of my playstyle from the one game we played together, we worked fairly well together and eliminated three scum in three days for a perfect win.

If you want to read me by yourself, you are going to need a paradigm shift in how you approach my play. You can't excuse my shift on Titan because you apparently think it is an objectively bad play and that you thought something else was objectively bad play in NY169 and therefore I could be town here. The problem being that they aren't objectively bad plays. I told you in NY169 why Casso was scum and you pretty much dismissed it there as well, presumably because you thought they were objectively bad reasons?

I am pretty certain at this point that the model you have for my play is hilariously inaccurate and wrong. Even if you correctly read me as town, it feels more like you are reading me as town for the wrong reasons and co-incidentally got it right. I am not town because I made a play you disagree with. I am town because of the massive amount of content I produced in this game, my activity level (yes, it IS that simple sometimes, I lurk as scum), my genuine and non-stop effort to get this town on track and work with people to secure an optimal lynch. I am town because of how much my actions and analysis help the town, how conscious I've been to reduce the amount of noise in this thread, and how much serious, serious effort I've put into solving this game. That's why I am town. Could I fake it? I am meh as scum but not terrible. I could fake a few things. I could fake a meta-dive. I could fake frustration. I can scum-theater with my buddies. But I just don't have the same drive, the same passion, and the same unwavering determination to win the game.

~ F-16

Ok.

I've been digging at you to explain that period of the game a little better because I think it's critical to how people are reading you and better from the horse's mouth. Not to form my own read.

RDB have worked their way around to townreading Titan. It's a trajectory that made sense to me, particularly given the too many heads game and what I remember of Nati's reactions to Tammy's play in ny 169.

Your trajectory on Tammy was subtle. The only part of it that really bothered me at the time was that from your explanation in 256 you didn't seem to see Tammy's post 56 in the context of Vesperia, or at least not to put enough weight that game's effect, if you thought the post was aggressive. You spectated the game and followed it pretty closely from what I saw of the spectator qt, so I assumed it would be pretty obvious.

My RDB read is tone/timing based, and Nati's appeal to me today is not something I see him doing as scum. I'll try to explain it better tomorrow.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

bork, talk to me about your and Nacho's reads?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Mac, you're back to scum on fox and hound?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

When I think about GiF's depth of lurk, I worry. But, I have a hard time faulting anyone for not wanting to touch this thread the last couple of days.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm about to head to bed. Ffery, I'll get to your post later.

Mac, "so much fucking noise" is sort of the reason I haven't produced a case on RBD. I didn't intend to get them lynched today so what's the point in creating additional noise. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I

could

have produced an unnecessary case to which you might have responded with "so much noise" but pick one. There will not be a noiseless case. Also, do you really think you can be convinced to vote RBD? I don't think you are but I may be mistaken, correct me if I am wrong.

I'll make a case if I intend to get a player lynched. I am still thinking things over on whether I want to push an RBD lynch today.

~ F-16

So you expect to be alive tomorrow.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I'm about to head to bed. Ffery, I'll get to your post later.

Mac, "so much fucking noise" is sort of the reason I haven't produced a case on RBD. I didn't intend to get them lynched today so what's the point in creating additional noise. You can't have your cake and eat it too. I

could

have produced an unnecessary case to which you might have responded with "so much noise" but pick one. There will not be a noiseless case. Also, do you really think you can be convinced to vote RBD? I don't think you are but I may be mistaken, correct me if I am wrong.

I'll make a case if I intend to get a player lynched. I am still thinking things over on whether I want to push an RBD lynch today.

~ F-16

So you expect to be alive tomorrow.