Tales of You (Endgame)

[Kagura]

yoyoyoyo

what's crackalackin

-b

[Kagura]

(nachobork, GIF, Tammydra, 3dicehawk, you two, beliffery, natimuffin) drew town role pms.

*raises hand*

Yaaar, we be a hated miller age cop gladiator!

If this is for real, this might affect us.

I actually wasn't sure (yes, I realize the cogdis) seeing as I know there's a Nati/SSK dynamic that always happens. I attributed that type of post to said dynamic, but leaned more to it being mastin for the same reasons you obviously have.

That's fine, but how'd you get to mastintown the second you realized it was mastin posting?

Okay here's what I need from you guys. Nacho, if you're town I need to feel it. Alternatively, Bork you can obvtown up your slot ASAP please. I will stay with you, but if you value my sanity at all (and if you're town you should!), you will please just do this for me.

I mean, that's the plan pretty much every game for me.

We got off to a pretty crap start last game - I'd prefer not to repeat it, but I didn't really understand I was doing that was upsetting you last time. I don't mind this kind of opening from you, but if you're town I expect it not to be very long lived.

-b

[Kagura]

#45 may be the best Brian Skies post I've ever read.

It is not a dig at you - If you're town, I'm expecting you to figure us out.

-b

[Kagura]

I'm not sure what you mean by the last line or if that's a dig at me, but Nacho will be able to recognize that I'm town through and through from my first post.

I have no idea why it quoted the wrong post, this is what I was responding to.

-b

[Kagura]

We both apparently got under your skin in non-alignment-indicative ways. The dynamics will probably be different in this game.

It's weird looking at you from the other side of the lake



-b

[Kagura]

If you guys are town, then we'll probably be one big happy townbloc in the not too distant future.

We being you and us or is there anyone else you're including in there atm?

-b

[Kagura]

A pirate's life for me,
For a town pirate's all I can be
Being scum is so much fun
But it's too much work

And this game, you will not worry
My alignment is guaranteed
I have a transparent partner this game
And his name is bork borkieeeeeee

And so I'll troll and troll and troll and then I'll troll some more
I'll lynch scream and defend until the daytime ends
Then if I survive I will go trolling once again

- Lord Business

[Kagura]

Hi!

VOTE: kagura

Okay here's what I need from you guys. Nacho, if you're town I need to feel it. Alternatively, Bork you can obvtown up your slot ASAP please. I will stay with you, but if you value my sanity at all (and if you're town you should!), you will please just do this for me.

I briefly skimmed the first couple pages, notscience here's an awesome town tell for me. I literally just woke up, and the first thing I did was log in to this game. Though I'd love to stay and goof off I've got to go to work.

As the Pirate Goddess of Mafiascum,
I hearby solely swear
For every person who townreads us
I will answer them with a pirate prayer

A shot of Jack and a hint of Coke
No matter the hour, before I post
For with every townie show
Should come a drunken glow

-Lord Business

[Kagura]

walking dead vibes, specially with gyarados, rancid, stalin, lord business, and titan. the latter two should nip their shit in the bud sooner rather than later.

I was in walking dead; what are you specifically referring to? Cause all I remember about Day 1 in that game is a townbloc that actually (sans Thor) was really almost 100% town.

I had to go back to work, but I didn't know if the that won't last long if you're town was referring to the reach out to you guys. But, this makes better sense.

It was specifically referring to the vote/pressure on us.

I doubt very very seriously that either head of that hydra viewed my early reach out to them as me "emotionally blackmailing" them.

I didn't, but at the same time, this guy isn't familiar with the interactions in Vesperia between 1) your slot and mine and 2) (probably more relevant) both our slots and Nacho's slot, because that experience is immediately what is coloring my interpretation of your opening and it should occur to you that it would not color his interpretation of it.

-b

[Kagura]

if you're town your job is to make sure I don't let any DBKs in okay

I think we need a BRO for that, because I sucked at that too

-b

[Kagura]

Welcome to hydraing with ffery, where everyone is just going to call you ffery.

*glares at Nacho*

-b

[Kagura]

Day 1 of hydraing with Bork:

[Kagura]

Feeling mastin town from stuff like #165 - it's entirely tonal but very close to mastin town I've seen (and the one I wish I would've seen in Vesperia)

I also have a minor gut town on Clyton for 169's headlong response to pressure.

I had a damn reason to need for them to town early dammit.

I hadn't really thought about until this morning - I feel like you kinda know 1) how obvtown I get and 2) (especially after vesperia) how little of a footprint Nacho has been making in his hydra games lately (and considering my overall communication with him this game so far, that doesn't seem likely to change this game) especially after the pulling teeth process that communicating with penguin about Nacho was last game.

Why not just read me?

-b

p-edit: thanks for making my point there buddy ol' pal

[Kagura]

Wait, I drank a shot for Tammy and she's not even two reading us yet?
Bork, step up your game

[Kagura]

I make king kong footprints in my hydra games, borkie.

[Kagura]

(by the way, I posted in our old quick topic a while ago)

[Kagura]

Um I don't get this question. I only know or think I know you get obvtown from that one time when we played on skype and we suspected each other then town read each other then suspected each other and when I said I'd only been mislynched once in the forums you said you had too (at least I think that was a conversation I had with you, I know it was the game). So, I do believe that you get obvtown, but we don't exactly have much experience with each other. You were scum in We the Purple and danced with Nacho and I left that read up to him because I don't think I'd ever played with you at that point and I didn't know what he was looking for. The other two times we played together you were town but you played with ffery, and in Tales of the Abyss you guys died night one and I think you had just had your kid, so most of the posting was ffery. In Tales of Vesperia, I had you guys as scum early and Mala was the one who kept telling me she was gut reading you as town but then downgraded that later after I had you as solid town from being pretty convinced you were the vig based on things you had said regarding GreyIce.

I know how busy Nacho is, that doesn't mean I won't try to read him. He's the head I'm more familiar with, so of course I'm going to look for what tells I've accumulated there. But I don't get where you think I wasn't trying to read you? I literally said alternatively Bork you can obvtown your slot ASAP please. Like I directly addressed you and the fact that what I believe I know is that as town you're pretty town. And then I literally asked ffery about what she thought about you early game. So, I don't get where you think for one second I'm not trying to read you. And since I tend to be paranoid of Nacho until he hits the markers that I believe are definitely his town game, I was literally looking to you more. I have a reason for needing an early read on your slot; if you're town, it's not important, but it's there nonetheless, and I want you sorted sooner.

Nah I wasn't expecting skype to have any bearing on it.

I think really it's more that I felt that I was bleeding town day and night in both abyss (which I really did get into after a slow start) and vesperia (moreso than really anyone in the game) and the fact that I feel that I am exceptionally easy to read. I didn't really know you actually ever had a true scum lean on us in vesperia outside of that whole nebulous 'flat' thing.

-b

[Kagura]

Although I think I might be able to fool bork as scum, I don't think as scum I'd interact with him in quite the same way I've done here. It's a subtlety, but I think it's something that players who know me well probably pick up on.

Attempting to cut past the self-awareness stuff: yes, you probably can fool me. I don't actually have a lot of practice having to read you (generally when I play with you I'm occupying the same slot as you or you die early or I'm scum). I think maybe Walking Dead is the only notable exception to all of those that I can really think of offhand.

In what way have you really interacted with me so far other than to put forth a cursory read on me? That just strikes me as an odd angle to even develop at this point in the game.

-b

[Kagura]

Nacho just told me that he's been posting early reads in our old Hydra QT from Legend of Zelda and I had no idea

He's got Tammy early town from (paraphrasing) genuine vesperia frustration + early reaching to/sorting of notscience head
LB/MastinSSK/RG are all early town reads for him too and I don't object to any of them (although I might still call LB null).

-b

p-edit: why did you use the term 'that was not

the

post I would have called you town for' (emphasis mine) as if you knew beforehand there was going to be one (but not necessarily which one).

[Kagura]

There absolutely would be more posts I could confidently call town as scum. There have been several since 87 that are probably stronger townposts than that one. You bleed town copiously as town and you're well aware of it.

Therein was the root of my question I suppose: were you actually seeing the bleed-iness of my posting, because your comment really only makes sense in the context where you are seeing that. I just don't see any other reaction to my posts other than the one you did comment on.

flurgh. I'll admit I don't know where to go with this.

-b

[Kagura]

I'm not sure about the timing you're asking about here. We exchanged a few comments before your 87, and I think it's evident in my posts before 87 that I hadn't nailed down a town read prior to that.

Nah I'm not objecting to that - that's what I would expect from town-you.

I'm having trouble articulating what I want to say here - I couldn't really tell if you were saying "If I were scum there were plenty of other reasons to call you town (either before or after 87 because the posts are clearly there) that were easier to point at" (fine) or "If I were scum I know I'd have found something else to call you town about (because I actually already know that you're town)" (not fine because that would not be an actual sorting of my slot)

Hence my question about how you got to where you did with us besides 87.

-b

[Kagura]

Have I answered this well enough then?

Yeah. It occurs to me that your response in #404 is potentially colored by your reaction to my posts since #87 and not necessarily just limited to what you were feeling at the time you read #87 initially.

Overall it doesn't really help me a whole lot, though.

-b

[Kagura]

That post
it blows
four lines
make this flow

I had the opposite reaction, but even if you didn't, I don't understand what's scummy about it.

I like #435 - the points brought up there are specific and demonstrable, and while he asks ffery for confirmation, is not the same as just asking ffery for her opinion and piggybacking off of it.
Like unless they're scumbuddies and he had that angle picked out ahead of time I just don't see scum even thinking to analyze Mac's previous behavior toward meta-diving.

#446 is probably even better of a post.

-b

[Kagura]

Point is, Elemental's basically doing one of those classic scum-tells -- calling Mastin + us scummy, but preparing to vote for us, not Mastin. Assuming Mastin is scum, Elemental is pretty much guaranteed scum.

I am really tepid on this, especially since I am townreading mastin.

-b

[Kagura]

He most definitely is an alt.

Someone that you know? That knows you?

I'm all for protecting anonymity, but you guys are talking about LB as if you know who it is and if it's pertinent to the read then I don't know how to enter that conversation with any semblance of tact.

-b

[Kagura]

you have my attention

-b

[Kagura]

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

Why this post then if he knows you?

-b

[Kagura]

He's obviously going for anonymity here is my first guess. Well that was my second guess. My first guess was that he was trying to provoke me, but the way he went about it afterwards makes that make less sense.

Anonymity is fine.
Direct obfuscation (by way of actively pretending like he has no history with you) is antitown.

p-edit:

So please tell me now if this is going to be a problem and I will walk away and leave you to enjoy this game properly.

I apologize - I'm trying to use all the potential tools at my disposal to form a read.
But no, I sure as shit will not do that if it that would force you into replacing out. I'll pursue other avenues of conversation.

-b

[Kagura]

On phone so can't quote or anything

@Mastin: it throws my shit off when the target of my townread subverts the reasoning I gave, especially if they're townreading me.

Like I just don' t get your angle here.

-B

[Kagura]

re: anyone asking about Nacho:

I haven't been able to make any contact with him since he posted in our hydra QT (and I subsequently first posted his initial reads). If I didn't mention your slot in that post, he didn't comment about your slot.

-b

[Kagura]

Gonna need to be more specific than that. I've scumread lots of people stronger people are townreading; not sure who specifically you're referring to.

I mean you're giving me a paranoia attack when you say "that thing you called me town for? I'm not town for

that.

You should be townreading me for

these things.

"

-b

[Kagura]

A scumread on Tammy isn't sustainable because scum who scumread Tammy with shit reasons generally wind up dead.

Weren't you following Vesperia? Where all three scum did this on D1 and it didn't really backfire? (HKC was caught for being fucking crazy, ProHawk was caught via night actions, Orc was not caught at all)

None were really caught for having Tammy as a scumread.

-b

[Kagura]

The other reason is Bork's read. Bork, are you still solidifying your town read on Mastin or are you sure about it? Can you explain your reasons for me? If town who should I be looking at instead? You mentioned Post 164 as very town. Can you elaborate on that? Also, what are your reads on Rancid and Breakfast so far? I am also having trouble reading Clyton because I was taking a much more different approach to the game that he was. Can you explain your townread there more in depth?

re: mastin. Still solidifying, but I'd call it considerably left of null at this point. Mastin is one of a few players I try to read tonally more than interaction-y (this is partially due to the fact that she has rarely been alive late in games I've been in), and that is one of the few cases where I'm actually hopeful that introducing meta isn't going to totally fuck me over like it does when I try to meta shit like activity level or post length.

Look at Open 505. I fucked the read here up for a time but the way I recall getting back on track on it was reading another game. She achieves what I described to Nacho in the hydra QT for this game as the 'pinnacle of self-awareness' as town where she just gets a really good indication on how town is going to react to her continued survival and decides whether or not it is pro-town to behave in a certain way.

Compare to like Walking Dead - best described really as more straight laced and motivated by survivalism when attacked rather than keeping the gamestate healthy, as she was in 505. Maybe better defined as the lack of what I'm seeing in the other game I linked (which I recall is kinda what was on my mind when I voted her)

Anyway for this game, and the reason I pointed to 164 in particular - that seed of "I know what I'm doing sounds good to me and I'm calling out the flak I'm gonna take for it before I say it but I really do need to say it" is there, and is indicative of Mastin town. I feel like Mastin scum just wouldn't make posts where she needed to follow them up with posts like 164 at all.

(Apologize if I screwed up gender pronouns in there but I think I got em all.)

re: other slots you asked me about: I need to scour RBD (fucking read that as Rainbow Dash every time) just cause I tend not to do more than skim the rhyme posts.

I also need to think a little bit more about ffery outside of her interaction with me this game. I like her candor (such as about being able to fool me and talking about why she does what she does), but that is really all I have. Outside of what I summarized in #423 which I fucked up the execution of (and her pointing this out is actually a bit town, now that I think about it), #427 is maybe the only post that caused me to do a double take so far since it retroactively applies reasoning for a thing that she can't demonstrate was actually her intent, but I don't see any real sinister goal with that.

Apparently I have a minor town lean on her after considering everything I just typed. Less so than mastinslot.

-b

[Kagura]

bork V/LA till tomorrow night, family in town

[Kagura]

shots will be happening tomorrow morning

BUT GUESS WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW

[Kagura]

-nACHO

[Kagura]

What the fuck

Okay mastinssk can be town.

ONE DOWN FIFTEEN TO GO

are we town yet?
i need to know so I can decide whether to put a shot with your name on it or if i should vote the fuck out of you

[Kagura]

YESSSSSS

<3

[Kagura]

basically, if mac is scum, i won't ever lynch him because his rhymes are off the chain
luckily, i don't think he's scum

[Kagura]

Also, horrid posts?

A player focusing entirely on the game setup and theme stands out as trying not to interact with the players.

And your hydra currently is demanding a few other people you know prove to you that they are town. The line of dialogue whereby you say how obvious it should be you are town suggests a self awareness you are playing up to a known town meta. And self awareness can be a scum tell.

By contrast I have seen rhymes, emotional blackmail, demands of obvious town play, discussion over the setup and one person pretending to be another person in they hydra. Horrid doesn't come close.

I originally thought this opening was pretty town, but then somewhere I skimmed and saw Lord Business had experience with most of the playerlist and as a result I'm not sure how he could be this out of step with an entire playerlist, considering ProHawk is already accounted for.

[Kagura]

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Trusting me blindly when I call someone town is usually not a great idea because they're manipulating me specifically. Not trusting me when I say someone's town AND they're obviously town, worse idea. I've been pretty much constantly manipulating people for months and months and months and have made pretty awesome strides in my scumgame, and as a result, have become more of a paranoid person, AKA it's become even harder to make it past me lately.

Isn't that wonderful?

[Kagura]

And no I'm not omgusing before anyone accuses me of that BS. But I do not believe for one second Town!Mastin makes those posts. I just don't.

You're OMGUSing.

[Kagura]

1 Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)
^Already obvtown.

He then says he won't even take Nacho's word for his read on me based on me saying Nacho will recognize I'm town from my first post.

Mastin has a strange scum meta with me where he actually reaches out to me too much, gets too close, whereas everyone else tends to run away, get closer. I see why he would get paranoid of something like that, but I don't understand where his read is currently coming from.

[Kagura]

hey DV I currently don't have a townread on you
how does that make you feel?

[Kagura]

I'm just getting back into this game. I have skimmed the last few pages, but I'll read them better later.

RG - What are you're thoughts on mastin and LB?

If someone could engage me, that would really help get me into the game more.

- Dice

your current push is bad.

[Kagura]

WHY MASTIN

[Kagura]

WHY MASTIN

[Kagura]

Nope!

[Kagura]

oh oh oh and is this DV?

[Kagura]

Do you think you'd have the balls as scum to scumread me a second time in a row?

PEdit: It might be.

Obviously.
Guess you have to look at your play this game and tell me if it makes sense for me not to be townreading you.
What do you think?

[Kagura]

Scum: CarbonFiber - His posts feel fake to me. As expressed above, his thoughts seem really flippy to what people around him saying. Really feel like I have hit scum here.

"His posts feel fake to me" is an absolutely horrible attack that is baseless, says nothing. Why do I care if his posts feel fake to you: they don't feel fake to me AND I have a better idea of who F-16 is as a person and how his posts sound. I think he sounds very genuine. Why are you more qualified to judge what is fake and what is not than I am?

"Flippy to what people around him are saying" - actually doesn't say anything at all and I have trouble figuring out what you're talking about. Do you mean that he's manipulating people around him? Because I think everyone with a scum suspect has accused said scum suspect of manipulating everyone around him, but it's useless without specifics.

Meanwhile, Carbon Fiber happens to be in a group of four people who I would be willing to bet the game on them being town at this current point in time. So not only is your logic poor, but your target is as well. Can you find something better?

[Kagura]

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Trusting me blindly when I call someone town is usually not a great idea because they're manipulating me specifically. Not trusting me when I say someone's town AND they're obviously town, worse idea. I've been pretty much constantly manipulating people for months and months and months and have made pretty awesome strides in my scumgame, and as a result, have become more of a paranoid person, AKA it's become even harder to make it past me lately.

Isn't that wonderful?

I'm more worried about you getting past me. Again.

You shouldn't have to worry about that too much in this game.

[Kagura]

Hey, Nacho.

Forgetting something?

Maybe a read on a certain crimson creature

Maybe including the word "obvtown" in it

a group of four people who I would be willing to bet the game on them being town

i didn't forget shit, baby boy

[Kagura]

Hey, Nacho.

Forgetting something?

Maybe a read on a certain crimson creature

Maybe including the word "obvtown" in it

a group of four people who I would be willing to bet the game on them being town

i didn't forget shit, baby boy

[Kagura]

DV, your response is taking longer than I hoped it would

[Kagura]

yawwwnnnn

i love waking up in the morning to watch people bond in this game

please be better

[Kagura]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

[Kagura]

yawwwnnnn

i love waking up in the morning to watch people bond in this game

please be better

???

do more, stop being lazy
didn't you townread ffery in vesperia as well?

[Kagura]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

the why was referring more to what have you done that is town

[Kagura]

i did townread fery in vesperia

are you getting at something

i was just making sure i wasn't getting the games mixed up!
why is your townread on ffery so strong here?

[Kagura]

back up in the shit, reading

-b

[Kagura]

what about page 29?

[Kagura]

i mean you obviously know what i'm doing here is asking you to expand on your full thought process for ffery-town and how strongly you feel about things so that i can see her reaction, right?

[Kagura]

WHY MASTIN IS POSSIBLY NOT SCUM (AND ALSO IN THIS POST NACHO ENGAGES MASTIN SO PEOPLE WON'T JUST TELL HIM HE'S BEING MANIPULATED)

1) I think SSK aggressive push towards getting an RVS wagon on Broderick was pretty town for typical chucklefuckery reasons. Would SSK be comfortable taking the lead as scum in a hydra with Mastin? Nah, probably not.

Nah. As scum, I sheep them both and keep on their good sides.

I think you know I'm on guard for that by now: why wouldn't you subvert your meta and make a push on either Tammy or I?

If Nacho says Tammy's town, I won't trust him thanks to this.

Do you really think Tammy is able to manipulate me this easily?

2)

(You'd be surprised how much wavering is going on. Not dissonance. All just me. )

I generally find erratic weird bouncing back and forth more town than static reads, static behavior. This in particular strikes me as town because Mastin doesn't give a fuck about forming processes for why he's going back and forth, makes it feel more natural.

3)

(Side-note, but one advantage of being in a Cabd game is that nobody's going to be able to figure out my role from the softclaims I've done. They may think they have. They're sure to have speculation in mind, and have plenty of ideas. But they'll never correctly figure it out. And yet when I pull the pieces together for a fullclaim, everyone will go, "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! That makes total sense now!")

I think that general behavior around softclaim seems town. Mastin's capable of coming up with an intensely complicated fakeclaim/leaving a bunch of strange mastin crumbs then bullshitting the final role as a result, but not only is doing that unnecessary since he's been focused more on manipulating people and interactions between people as opposed to any crazy role faking business.

4)

Thus, why I believe that we have four scum, since that's the cutoff point.

Pretty easy way to go about calling him town is his townslip! I don't think that mastin is so incredibly devious that he created a fake role, started crumbing it very, very early, crumbed a couple real aspects of the role in there and planned to townslip this from the very beginning. I can't see him behaving ahead of time very "sneakily" about there being 4 scum, seeing his vote crossed out in the votecount, and THEN dropping said townslip. Creating something like that, in addition to interactions manipulations, in addition to everything else... in order for him to be scum, there's a very complicated and convoluted thought process happening and i don't really buy it at this point.

[Kagura]

i mean you obviously know what i'm doing here is asking you to expand on your full thought process for ffery-town and how strongly you feel about things so that i can see her reaction, right?

yeah except i don't really want to explain my full thought process for fery-town yet

which is why i linked you to the part where i said it was a discussion that i'll save until later

Vote: Fox and the Hound

[Kagura]

Slight scum
Carbon Fiber (FourTrouble and F16) (ill admit though i skipped some of their recent posts... like a lot)
Kagura (borkjerfkin + nachomamma8)

talk to me

What is your read on our slot exactly, orc? Because I assumed your #511 served a similar purpose as your #311, but you just instead dropped it a few posts later and I don't see a conclusion there.

you're talking to me like you think i'm town
i recall you being less approachable in some other games, though i'd be lying if i said it were a very accurate recall

I like to think we were really, really approachable in Vesperia. Like I know you were scum there but a big big part of your success there was getting past ffery and you used reachouts to her (and deliberately past me) to do this. Either way: is this alignment indicative?

-b

[Kagura]

Based on Mastin's random softclaim, it is clear that this is not the case he claims it to be. His role has nothing to do with the revelation of 4 mafias/13 towns. Everyone should have known that from the beginning of the game regardless of their role! Ergo, he most likely be trying to gain some sense of credibility and usefulness attached to his role in the face of the Town.

/Vote: MastinSSK

I don't understand the point you're even trying to make here.

-b

[Kagura]

orcinus is not so original

This was kinda fucking awesome though

-b

[Kagura]

thoughts on broseidon being on the playerlist and not in the game?

Not alignment indicative - see Frozen where he did this and I kinda jumped up his ass for it and he was town.

-b

[Kagura]

I'm not DV, but somewhere far short of pleased. Especially given that it sounds like DV's past experience with you resembles my own. I fully expect to hear you give me some shit about Ice and Fire here, but the fact is that you've never been wrong about me when we've both been town, so this is really not working for me. This is a strong playerlist, and one in which scumcho would be pretty short on easy mislynches. Meanwhile, you know that I am an easy mislynch without someone to whiteknight me, and you are supposed to be that someone. Once again I find myself thinking of Open 527, where you scumread me for vague reasons and guess what, they were bull.

Look.

I'm not Nacho and you're not DV, but how are you not taking Nacho's post as anything besides a reachout/pressure to get a read? Because that is pretty transparently what it is.
You said "bulder (fucking really? did you just read vesperia where orc did that on purpose?) looked town". There's a pretty good reason for that - I am town and I'm really easy to read (as stated by plenty of others around the thread).

I'm curious: should others be hard townreading you at this point in the game, in your opinion?

-b

[Kagura]

@orc: I'm willing to powwow a bit.

Lemme see where I am:
Town:
mastin
titan
RG
Clyton
--
Townish:
BWS
Carbon
Mac

Sorting Fox
Talk to me about ehawk/clyton/any other differences you have with me.
Where are you with titan?

I had some open questions to you earlier, too.

-b

[Kagura]

I was slightly taken aback by the quick town. That being said, she has page 1 towned me before so i'm not allllll that worried?

That's fair.

where are you putting cephrir?

cephrir I want to figure out his angle on our slot and find out from Nacho what he thinks based on previous experience of them getting weird on each other like this. We briefly synced up yesterday but not before I read any of that.

I'm not sure where to put you yet because I don't really get your trajectories on any of your voting targets. I don't really have an early ping on you like I did last game (that I got paranoid on because people were jumping to sheep me on it)

In theory, I could maybe see Nacho coaching bork through a scum role and helping him hit all the right notes

I'm not thrilled by the sentiment that you think I need this (even it's irrelevant to the game at hand.)

I'm going home tomorrow!

Safe travels!

-b

[Kagura]

And, yeah, I don't think you can hit some of your particular town notes as scum.

I don't think that's a controversial statement.

It's not. Just wasn't a fan of the way you phrased it. I'm sorry.

-b

[Kagura]

Should others be hard townreading me yet? Probably not, speaking for myself at least.

I get the pathos stuff - this is actually pretty much exactly how I feel when more than a few people in a game fuck up their read on me.

But you don't really seem concerned with most of the playerlist, emotionally (or at least you weren't until Nacho did it).
Why is the Nacho read on you such a special case to you?

-b

[Kagura]

VOTE: Kagura

Im going to posture over here for a little bit.

SUP

BORK.

Yeah?

I haven't played with you in like a year but I don't remember your MO to be "threadshit the fuck out of your entrance on replace in"

-b

[Kagura]

If that's the case, his annoyance is misplaced. He could maybe address the people creating noisy back-and-forths as opposed to someone like me who is keeping noise to a minimum. There is plenty of stuff that I haven't responded to and don't intend to because I don't believe it will help me solve the game. Most of my back-and-forths are questions, conversations, or analysis/explanations of reads.

This is a really town post.

-b

[Kagura]

Oh, you're a gladiator?

VOTE: RBD

Why is this a reason for a vote?

-b

[Kagura]

Unrequited lover (especially cross-aligned ones)
Things that give scum an extra kill in non-large games.

-b

[Kagura]

Is that seriously the only comment you have to make about my entrance into the game?

Not curious why Im voting you?

No comment on mastin walling up the thread with me?

Nothing in your ISO looks extremely town.

There is also something about it that bothers me. A lot. When did you make your hydra QT for this game?

1) You deliberately engaged me without asking a question. I am engaging you back without answering a question you didn't ask.
2) Of course I'm curious. In what world would I not be curious? Is it alignment indicative not to be curious?
3) To be honest, I didn't read most of it and I don't really want to. Do you want me to go back and read something specific? Because I am willing to do that.
4) That's pretty much the weakest 'I'm warming up to scumreading you' sentence I've ever read.
5) I made my hydra QT for the legend of zelda game on 9/26/13, and Nacho decided to repurpose it for this one. I did not make one for this game. Where are you going with this, exactly?

-b

[Kagura]

And I explained the reasons.

You are not escaping a lynch.

We don't lynch you today, it's tomorrow. If not then, D3. You are not escaping that fate. I explained explicitly why you claiming would be pro-town. Because if we're not wagoning you today (which would force you to claim anyway), we're wagoning you tomorrow in a 1v1 against Rancid, which will 100% result in your lynch because nobody here is going to choose to save you over saving Rancid. And if Rancid 1v1s the survivor of Fox/Hound and Sheep Us rather than you, we just wagon you on D3.

Even if he is scum, how is it in any way more pro-town to rely entirely on the reads of an unconfirmed player than to let the game progress normally?

-b

[Kagura]

You wouldnt do that unless there was more than one QT. Its a subconscious thing. So what is this other QT you posted in for this game

Are you actually fucking serious?

Because the actual inference you should be making there is there is a hydra QT

for some other game

since that is where the clarifying inflection happened that even you italicized (there isn't) or that I just decided to type that because I don't actually have to have a reason to type that - it's just what I typed there and I have no profound explanation for it.

I've seen dumb angles before but fucking wow.

-b

[Kagura]

cool man

-b

[Kagura]

You and Nacho have a QT. One QT. Just a singular QT. One.

Yep, it was the zelda QT and became the this game QT. Sometimes we talk on gchat/skype too!

People with one thing, dont qualify it when talking about it. Its "The Hydra QT".

Uh, English motherfucker?

If you were expecting "The QT" and got "The hydra QT", that is the point where you get to make the argument that "haha you have more than one QT" and have it not be objectively wrong (but still dumb as shit as a slip)

Saying "The hydra QT

for this game

" just

possibly

(not necessarily) indicates that there may be a hydra QT for some other game.

I can't believe this conversation had to happen.

-b

[Kagura]

Do ye think
That I be town?
Please let it be so, Nacho
Don't let me down

-Nati

I was gonna vote you before I was pinged by the Fox!

[Kagura]

that I'm pretty sure as town you'd be townreading me, so what's the deal?

Why?

Because I'm town and you're you and even though this sounds incredibly and awfully sappy, usually you're the one to townread me when no one else does!

the why was referring more to what have you done that is town

I don't see how I could've made 592 as scum. I would have had to fake my thoughts on Mastin to look like I'd posted them in a hydra QT two days prior and I don't go to those kinds of lengths as scum. That was the only time I thought as I was posting that I was being really town, but I think I've been quite town and unlike scum-me throughout as I've mentioned before, and Tammy's townread in particular makes me more confident that you would recognise this.

Nacho, if you're town, you need to stop this and show me that you are, because I'm trying to think of reasons why you're not scum here and I'm struggling.

Also, why does Mastin's claim need to be a fakeclaim?

Why would you have had to fake the Mastin thoughts and do the QT stuff?
I don't get it

Mastin's claim needs to be a fakeclaim unless you think the weird thing he's going to claim is going to be his real role as scum, in which case it seems pretty useless in what's bound to be a power heavy game. Do you disagree with that?

[Kagura]

@ titan: you've seen me not be present as town as well, so how are you reconciling that and why do you think our lack of thread presence in the first week of the game is enough to constitute a top scumread?

it's worrisome when both your heads are doing it! There are a couple questions posed to you from rather early and neither of you answered the question or clarified. I thought the tone of your first post was really off, but kagura's post to you made it sound like that was a list of town reads, so the tone isn't as weird as originally thought.

You being absent makes it somewhat null, but still. Bro also being completely absent when he's so egotistical about his town game is really worrisome. I realize that it could also be town from you guys, but I'd like to sort you out. I don't have any great scum reads either, so consider it an invitation to town it up, so I can stop worrying about you guys and move on.

ALSO, Bro didn't post the player list when he checked in to say he's reading and that lack of posting the player list is what moved you ahead of Peregrine as a scum read!

BRO is egotistical, but lazy. In 167 he was pretty solidly mislynch bait until RC replaced in and killed Generic.

[Kagura]

I'm also pretty confident they're town, so there's that too!

[Kagura]

Oh Nacho, Oh Nacho
You are my friend
And I wish I was in America
We'd drink 'til the end

But tell me your secrets
And tell me no lies
To what do I owe
Such a pleasant surprise?

Surprise?
Why would my townread on you be a surprise?

[Kagura]

I wouldn't know. But he's been pretty town from my naive standpoint.

Why?

[Kagura]

But the only reason you're not seeing him as town is because he's not reading you as town - and your refusal to see it from a different perspective other than "no townread, must be scum" is worrying.

Like you're not even considering Nacho can be town AND wrong, you've just launched an assault on why he's scum.

I am worried that Nacho not townreading me is influencing me more than it should, but although his posts are townish, I don't think anything couldn't be faked by scum, and I think I'm pretty obviously considering that he's town and wrong. The problem here is that Nacho always townreads me to the point where it's become a running joke, even once when I was scum on an alt and a popular scumread. Do I think Nacho could catch me as scum now? Yeah, probably. It's been a long time since I've been scum against him. But would he not townread me when I'm town and think I'm quite transparently so? I don't think so.

Trust me that I really want Kagura to be town and prove us wrong somehow, but I think the possibility that they're scum and no one's seeing it is a very real one.

This isn't necessarily true though. In swagtown, nacho suspected you, and I think looking back at that game you were transparently town. Nacho has suspected people that it was strange for him to suspect. In chosen and Viscon he suspected Bert when in both they were pretty town.

I think the only thing that is bugging me about your response is assuming he must be scum for misreading you and I'm of two minds about it. One I could see me reacting a similar way and

probably

freaking out about it. I'd probably figure nacho was trying to mislynch me. On the other hand, I'm having some flashbacks to ice and fire when cephrir basically argued that nacho would be scum if he suspected him and tried to manipulate him that way.

I didn't suspect Bert in either Chosen or Viscon...?
Did I?
Maybe chosen, but not vision.

[Kagura]

I wish! Did you read the way he came after me in too many heads?

Except in that game
He backed off from ye,

Thinking ye were town,
After a fake AtE

No, I unvoted in case Tammy was actually crying.
I've always been willing to give people as much room as they'd like to talk: that doesn't mean that I still don't think they are scum.

[Kagura]

I mean there's a difference between 'DV might be town, but not sure' and 'DV I don't townread you har har'.

What's the difference? Scum-Nacho doesn't really have to call you scum and get your attention: he can wait until late game when all of the people who could possibly support me and could possibly sniff out me scum despite bork apparently not being aware that we have a scum role PM instead of sorting you out almost immediately like I'm doing now.

[Kagura]

But the only reason you're not seeing him as town is because he's not reading you as town - and your refusal to see it from a different perspective other than "no townread, must be scum" is worrying.

Like you're not even considering Nacho can be town AND wrong, you've just launched an assault on why he's scum.

I am worried that Nacho not townreading me is influencing me more than it should, but although his posts are townish, I don't think anything couldn't be faked by scum, and I think I'm pretty obviously considering that he's town and wrong. The problem here is that Nacho always townreads me to the point where it's become a running joke, even once when I was scum on an alt and a popular scumread. Do I think Nacho could catch me as scum now? Yeah, probably. It's been a long time since I've been scum against him. But would he not townread me when I'm town and think I'm quite transparently so? I don't think so.

Trust me that I really want Kagura to be town and prove us wrong somehow, but I think the possibility that they're scum and no one's seeing it is a very real one.

This isn't necessarily true though. In swagtown, nacho suspected you, and I think looking back at that game you were transparently town. Nacho has suspected people that it was strange for him to suspect. In chosen and Viscon he suspected Bert when in both they were pretty town.

I think the only thing that is bugging me about your response is assuming he must be scum for misreading you and I'm of two minds about it. One I could see me reacting a similar way and

probably

freaking out about it. I'd probably figure nacho was trying to mislynch me. On the other hand, I'm having some flashbacks to ice and fire when cephrir basically argued that nacho would be scum if he suspected him and tried to manipulate him that way.

I didn't suspect Bert in either Chosen or Viscon...?
Did I?
Maybe chosen, but not vision.

I'm pretty sure you did. There at the end you suspected him and you suspected Empire. I mean I guess it's a special case because no one would listen to me that Mara and her lover were scum, so wheels were spinning trying to make everyone scum.

You have to be trolling me.

[Kagura]

:(:(:(

ITT we learn that Tammy never cares about what Nacho writes ever, and Nacho learns he might as well just not post :(:(

[Kagura]

also where's my shot?

Can I join? College turned me into an alcohol abuser!

The more the merrier!

Awesome! I have like three fifths of flavored vodka, two fifths of flavored rum, Pusser's Navy Rum, some de Kuiper's Soul Apple, some Amarettto, and a fifth of 151 in my room that I need to get rid of before graduation!

Oh god that sounds terrible...

(Also, if you have anything you want to talk to me about game, wise, I'm semi-present right now while I do my hw).

I feel like we'd get along great.

[Kagura]

:(:(:(

ITT we learn that Tammy never cares about what Nacho writes ever, and Nacho learns he might as well just not post :(:(

WHAT?

Dude I was going to bed when I saw you posting. I'm literally forcing myself to stay awake to see what you post and respond.

AND I asked you a question.

I might be hurt right now.

ok good but I totally didn't suspect Empire and I never legitimately suspected Bert

[Kagura]

just sayin'

[Kagura]

nacho - what is your updated read on the rancid pirates?

I dunno.
I feel Muffin would be less likely to constantly troll as scum than as town, but that's not really based in any sort of evidence or reality. I still wouldn't be unhappy voting them, still reading though.

[Kagura]

Did I?

[Kagura]

But idk I kinda am "meh" about the rest of their posts, so irdk.

You're meh on the rest of out posts?

I was sort of hoping this could be the one game where we were so obviously town together where you didn't have to be paranoid off us, especially since bork has been killing it in the towniness department lately and I haven't been doing so badly myself.

[Kagura]

I mean, maybe not unfakeable levels of towniness, granted, but pretty damn town all the same.

[Kagura]

Really mastin? My entry post was practically trust tell levels of town. Are we doing this right now?

No. We aren't. I'm past that point.

Like.

I really want to trust you.
Really want to believe you.
If not. If not trusting you. I want to enter into that debate.
Just so that at the end of it, I could go "Oh, fuck, he's actually town."
Really, really want to.

But I can't. Because...you're not. I want it to be true more than any other player, believe me. Yet...you aren't.

Like, normally, I'd give AP a day or two just on policy of AP being AP. Normally, I'd also be giving him that benefit of the doubt. Normally, I'd try hashing things out with him. Normally, I'd do a ton of stuff differently. But, well...I've never felt this way. That role reversal, of me being the one having seen the confscumness of a player, rather than being the player seen as confscum. Yet I know it's true. It simply...isn't the town AP. So this game, I'm the player who gets to say that line, that "You're scum, aren't you?" overwhelming feeling of sadness that the friend you know and respect is your enemy and you know they are.

Because it's true.

when you where scum as the birdinabath hydra, who did most of the posting? What did the QT look like?

AP's response is accurate; that game was mostly him, with little QT. But my read doesn't come from meta. (Okay, so past games may influence my overall perception, but they aren't driving it.) Not from that game or any other. My read comes from AP being AngryPidgeon, and everything I know about him is essentially saying that--while he's attempting to put on a strong show--this...just simply isn't his towngame.

You're missing drive to explain why AP is scum, though.

I'm okay with your read if you're willing to give me something and put words to explain it as well, or else you have things like my mollie read or your SSK read in Xenosaga.

[Kagura]

Don't really give a shit. Nati has basically checked out of the game because of RL and not wanting to read this shit. His last post was 676 (last Friday) and prior to that 441 (last Tuesday). And considering I didn't even intend to play this game, and

I'm the head that nobody is ever going to town read no matter what I do, I've lost interest in even attempting to look town here.

I want this group of players to burn with fucking fire: {AP, despbro, foxhound, PV, GIF}. And I've been wanting this for a while

If you really want to try and lynch me, despbro, I'll 1v1 you tomorrow

Where did this come from?

[Kagura]

Vote: PeregrineV

I DON'T HAVE TO GO TO WORK SO I AM GETTING DRUNK

[Kagura]

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK DV MIGHT ACTUALLY BE TOWN
AND IM STILL NOT DONE READING BUT I ALSO LIED TO MY GIRLFRIEND ABOUT BEING CAUGHT UP

[Kagura]

ALSO SHE THINKS BREAKFAST WITH STALIN IS A FUNNY NAME
I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

[Kagura]

I was sort of hoping for Muffin's response to that one: you aren't interesting enough for me.

[Kagura]

CF less so, but it could be from feeling like my overall play style is in a state of flux and F-16's meta-based questioning of me gives me the feeling that I need to stay within my usual envelope, but it doesn't FIT.

Ffery, what do you mean by this?

Also, you said that you are concerned Nacho hasn't approached you with his reads but I see you haven't either. You had similar concerns with me early game. Do you generally prefer to be approached for comparing notes as opposed to pro-actively asking it of others?

~ F-16

Your post is actually a pretty good example of what I mean. What I generally prefer doesn't matter. I'm outside the general preferences envelope this game. You're apparently trying to tailor your interactions with me to what you think I should expect. For, me that's not the stuff reads are made of. The dance isn't choreographed in advance.

And I've actually reached out to nacho at least a couple times and haven't gotten much if anything in response.

I see your most recent reach out, and it will be answered.

[Kagura]

No.
I still don't really like Orc.

[Kagura]

I LIKED SCUMFUCK MORE

As I recall, your avatar said "Die, Scumfuck" at the time

But yeah, it was glorious for the one game where it lasted.

It still does

[Kagura]

beetlejuice

I'm disappointed.

I'd hoped that Bork would post something. I hoped it would be really really town and make me bask in joy.

Seriously what is the impetus for you getting weird on me at this particular juncture?

-b

[Kagura]

I know why Bork hasn't posted anything town

It's cause I'm posting it in my six QTs or whatever the fuck, right?

-b

[Kagura]

I am still fairly strongly gutwise against mastin scum even though I need to explore certain other avenues presented to me about it. I need to check in with CF about it in particular.

JSU - I have a big negative connection between them and RBD and that is probably about it.
LB has grown kinda stale for me. I liked the opening but the attitude since has been pretty reluctant to move the gamestate forward.
Fox I honestly just derped and never got around to reading the follow-up from Nacho about (nor was I really able to talk to him) because I am spread a little too thin in the past few days. I'm catching up on that.
I saw NS fade in frozen as town, but he claims that he hates playing scum and posts less in games because of it, and that is really what he's doing here since the opening hours of the thread.
Who the fuck is Kat?

Rest I agree, even if CF and I need to clear some shit up.

Lemme get a beer.

-b

p-edit: Not since Wed. I've fallen behind on this game and I apologize, but that's the reality of it. I had company over tonight that left 15 minutes ago, and I didn't have time to get into this at work today.

[Kagura]

Cancel what I said about LB - I just looked in his ISO and he's taking some stances and I don't really like AP either.

-b

[Kagura]

I was pleasantly surprised to find their 90 minute IPA available at bevmo.

We have a new happy hour place that has it on tap!

Tonight it's Lagunitas Investigation Shutdown and Ardbeg Uigeadail

-b

[Kagura]

Kat is Katsuki is CupcakePanda.

Oh, derp.

Yeah that's not the type of player that I'm gonna try to meta.

-b

[Kagura]

To make that clear: I don't really read him either way. I don't see anything town there,
but like every time I've seen a lurkderp case pushed early game they've pretty much always flipped town (except your discode thing which was fucking awesome)

-b

[Kagura]

Where are you guys with mastin and fox?

-b

[Kagura]

And nacho hasn't talked to me about his PV read so I don't know why our vote is there (I remember the thing early in the game about us vs Yukari read hinging on this other's alignment but that was pretty fucking banal)

-b

[Kagura]

beli is scumreading him.

Do you know why?

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

I do think her gladiator strat is crap, but I don't know. On one hand, me and meta are a fucking disaster.
On the other, like in walking dead I really felt I fucking knew it and just couldn't qualify and then too much of my time got caught up in soft defending metal sonic because metal sonic

-b

[Kagura]

but, I think my flandre read in xenosaga was pretty awesome too.

I don't read my modded games as well as I should, sometimes.

-b

[Kagura]

How serious were you when you made this statement?

I hope that isn't to me because I very obviously didn't type that

-b

[Kagura]

mastin-town has kinda been my rock this game.

Talking to me will generally get you better results than disapproving smiley face.

-b

[Kagura]

Okay in what way is mastin town your rock?

I posted it about it earlier, but that's the one read I've felt pretty good about.

Sec.

-b

[Kagura]

The other reason is Bork's read. Bork, are you still solidifying your town read on Mastin or are you sure about it? Can you explain your reasons for me? If town who should I be looking at instead? You mentioned Post 164 as very town. Can you elaborate on that? Also, what are your reads on Rancid and Breakfast so far? I am also having trouble reading Clyton because I was taking a much more different approach to the game that he was. Can you explain your townread there more in depth?

re: mastin. Still solidifying, but I'd call it considerably left of null at this point. Mastin is one of a few players I try to read tonally more than interaction-y (this is partially due to the fact that she has rarely been alive late in games I've been in), and that is one of the few cases where I'm actually hopeful that introducing meta isn't going to totally fuck me over like it does when I try to meta shit like activity level or post length.

Look at Open 505. I fucked the read here up for a time but the way I recall getting back on track on it was reading another game. She achieves what I described to Nacho in the hydra QT for this game as the 'pinnacle of self-awareness' as town where she just gets a really good indication on how town is going to react to her continued survival and decides whether or not it is pro-town to behave in a certain way.

Compare to like Walking Dead - best described really as more straight laced and motivated by survivalism when attacked rather than keeping the gamestate healthy, as she was in 505. Maybe better defined as the lack of what I'm seeing in the other game I linked (which I recall is kinda what was on my mind when I voted her)

Anyway for this game, and the reason I pointed to 164 in particular - that seed of "I know what I'm doing sounds good to me and I'm calling out the flak I'm gonna take for it before I say it but I really do need to say it" is there, and is indicative of Mastin town. I feel like Mastin scum just wouldn't make posts where she needed to follow them up with posts like 164 at all.

(Apologize if I screwed up gender pronouns in there but I think I got em all.)

re: other slots you asked me about: I need to scour RBD (fucking read that as Rainbow Dash every time) just cause I tend not to do more than skim the rhyme posts.

I also need to think a little bit more about ffery outside of her interaction with me this game. I like her candor (such as about being able to fool me and talking about why she does what she does), but that is really all I have. Outside of what I summarized in #423 which I fucked up the execution of (and her pointing this out is actually a bit town, now that I think about it), #427 is maybe the only post that caused me to do a double take so far since it retroactively applies reasoning for a thing that she can't demonstrate was actually her intent, but I don't see any real sinister goal with that.

Apparently I have a minor town lean on her after considering everything I just typed. Less so than mastinslot.

-b

[Kagura]

I can't parse what is scummy about that

-b

[Kagura]

Yaaa, mastin is either scum or channeling House Party mastin this game. I suspect the latter, but either way.

Either way what?
Was he town in house party?

-b

[Kagura]

she*

sorry

-b

[Kagura]

it is 2014 and my wireless network just went down one sec

[Kagura]

It didn't give me quite the same level of scumvibe, but I think that's because of xenosaga. there are some parallels between ceph's reads in the early game here and his day 1 in xenosaga, but ceph is a consummate scum player. I think it's actually more of a heartfelt townie thing that scum-ceph would avoid so soon after that game.

Are we talking about mastin or ceph?

-b (I was gonna stop signing for the night considering nacho isn't around but fuck that, ISO clarity for posterity)

that rhymes

[Kagura]

And regardless, even if I thought mastin was strongly town this game, I'd in no way understand why he'd be someone's rock.

I am possibly being hyperbolic.

But I feel like mastin feels, well, 'flat' (sorry to use such a loaded word after that whole thing) as scum or gets defensive or tunnels or something else opaque and distracting and doesn't really absorb the gamestate.

Her play here strongly feels like absorbing the gamestate and radiating thoughts on it.

goddamn now I'm using tales of the abyss lingo.

I really don't know how better to put it. I'm endeavoring to listen to dissenting opinions but you aren't giving any reasons.

-b

p-edit: I am having trouble discerning where beli's read ends and your commentary on it begins.

[Kagura]

Bork's posting kinda sorta pinged me, and I think it was that he has me as basically the foundation of his townreads. But for some reason, in spite of the sudden paranoia, I'm leaning town there anyway.

...what?

-b

[Kagura]

Like am I actually fucking off the mark?

-b

[Kagura]

oh by all means, give in

-b

[Kagura]

This game started out as a light game that I was happy about because it was a fun game. This game has been warped into some clusterfuck with moments that have gotten far too personal far too quickly, and that is not the atmosphere that makes it fun to play in at all, and is certainly not conducive to play in as town. I think scumreads on the Mastin slot and scumreads on the Just Sheep Us slot are patently horrible: neither are playing versions anything close to their scumgames. Mastin, your push on the slot in particular is reeking with bias thanks to the "I hope that you are scum because if you're town you're repeating the same mistake over and over again...": you are aware that you

want

him to flip scum very, very badly, and your case on him composes of, what? Him not identifying you as town? As wonderful as it is for people to see you as town, it doesn't always happen. Sometimes people are shit at reading you, as Muffin and I found out in Natirasha on Parole.

Additionally, RBD, if you gladiate JSU tomorrow I will vote you and I will make you die. Gladiators in general for townies are fun as hell but also incredibly anti-town except in extreme, extreme circumstances since if you can't convince town to lynch them you don't deserve to make them dead.

I'm happy with AP eating death. AP has some very poignantly town moments (see: him engaging BRO on good reasons to townread him when BRO is in a minority), but he also has some fairly clear scum motives (see: nitpicky attacks on bork for QT shit seems far more like scum throwing things at a wall to see what sticks as opposed to genuine AP paranoia).

If we want to lynch scum today (and do so easily!), we could kill the person who we're still voting who happens to be diving the fuck under the radar and following his scum meta to a T (which I feel has been pointed out several times by many different people, and yet this never gets acted on because...?). We can additionally lynch orc who is incredibly disengaged, having weird interactions with ffery (paranoia is usually the overarching theme when he's town, and this isn't one of those games where ffery should be a ride or die townread for orc. Xenosaga was one of those games, but this is not.)

[Kagura]

in spite of how I feel like I should be paranoia-reading you right now

I seriously have no idea why you think this and I would really like to clear this up.

-b

[Kagura]

Well it was sorta like Xenosaga mastin. I'll be your rock though.

Seriously, what does 'xenosaga mastin' mean to you? 'She had a lot of incorrect reads that game' is the thing that's most sticking out to me about Xenosaga mastin.

I also don't understand why you're like half reaching out and half taking underhanded potshots at me.

-b

[Kagura]

@bork - I read through your mastintown reasoning. One thing is going round my head - you say mastin as scum is motivated by survivalism rather than working towards a town wincon, and that was why you voted her in Walking Dead. In your Walking Dead post you link, you say mastin exists only in the form of "AD is scum." What differs from mastin there, and mastin here preaching to the choir that AP/Fox are scum, and not really willing to even consider changing her viewpoint?

Because she's also doing shit like going through and posting pretty well thought out reads lists about the entire game in between being tunnelish on scumreads. I really think that is way, way different than walking dead mastin (which I think I've talked about my vote on to the best of my ability)

"Preaching to the choir" is also probably not how I'd put her AP/Fox interactions this game - this implies that either 1) someone else is pushing it harder than she is and she's kinda taking advantage of that or 2) everyone here is in agreement with her already. I also wouldn't say that this label really applies to how she was behaving in walking dead either because literally no one bit on that AD case.

Otherwise tonewise you seem to have a dissenting opinion from mine - I'm all ears.

-b

[Kagura]

:/, "I'll be your rock" was not a reach out, lol.

What was it then? You being a dick or what?

-b

[Kagura]

And yes my point is that mastin is either scum or really REALLY wrong this game.

The 'really wrong' possibility seems like a huge afterthought.

-b

[Kagura]

Do you actually like mastins Fox/Hound pressure. Can you name a reason why mastin thinks they are scum off the top of your head?

Nope, but 1) that's a problem on my end at the moment, and 2) easily rectified by re-reading her posts.
Where are you getting this 'I think x is town' => 'I necessarily agree with x about everything?'

-b

[Kagura]

Because you called mastin your "ROCK"??? What does that mean then or is it just posting nonsense for the sake of posting nonsense?

It means I have a really good townread on her! WOW

Like seriously what the fuck did you think it meant?

-b

[Kagura]

What the fuck did I 'back down' on?

-b

[Kagura]

Technically, nothing. Actually? A lot. Your attitude towards mastin makes no sense.

Thanks for that nonanswer.

If this is going to be more semantics about what I meant when I said 'rock' then just do me a favor and reply with 'pineapple' instead of whatever you were gonna type.

-b

[Kagura]

Nacho's post... maybe. Bork though. No. Bork's interactions with me are scummy.

hes 100% uninterested in talking to me other than making snide remarks about one of the things I pushed him over that is, admittedly, a bit of a weird point...but hes basically capitalizing on it being a hard-to-sell point to discredit my opinion of him and justify casting me off instead of actually talking to me about why nothing they've posted looks town. Its sleazy and DEFINITELY elements of "cant prove Im scum" since hes basically saying "lol thats all you got lolol, you scummy AP but we are gonna just keep ignoring you."

Nacho comes in and acknowledges me, but Bork is fucking scummy and should feel scummy.

hes 100% uninterested in talking to me

Get fucked, dude.

You have done nothing the ENTIRE FUCKING GAME but take potshots at me about the DUMBEST FUCKING SHIT IMAGINABLE (QT slip? Remember when you actually fucking typed that and was like 'yeah, hmm, I'm gonna hit submit on that that seems like a good post')

but I'm not interested in talking to you? even though every post you've made about me is 'bork sure looks like scum' behind my back?

Only fucking reach out you get this game - explain what I'm doing that isn't town or whatever the fuck point you're trying to make.
In fact I have no fucking idea what point you're trying to make because you haven't been fucking clear about anything.

actually talking to me about why nothing they've posted looks town.

You

are making this claim.

You're

the one who needs to fucking elaborate.

Mother of fucking christ.

[Kagura]

Forgot to fucking sign.

-b

[Kagura]

Catching up after I get lunch with the express goal of not getting in a pissing contest with AP again because my blood pressure.

-b

[Kagura]

Your neighborhood got outed. I assume you and Nacho have been hydra-posting there?

I have nothing from Nacho - he's not around and that's just the reality of it.
I have a decaying townread on LB (pretty much based off his opening and nothing else)

p-edit:

There is time to get info about his reasoning from his neighborhood and his hydra partner.

There very well might not be - what specifically do you need from Nacho, just PV reasoning?

If I didn't empathize with penguin_alien before I sure as shit do now.

-b

[Kagura]

Vesperia

-b

[Kagura]

And good if the neighborhood's been outed I can post that I find CF extraordinarily town in it

-b

[Kagura]

Do any of the other game people have neighborhoods? Because that just screams 'global mechanic' to me

-b

[Kagura]

If you weren't in the hydra his apparently standoffish stance on me would be making me nervous about now. He should be either sure I'm town or grilling the hell out of me.

Does Nacho normally read you as quickly as he reads me?

-b

[Kagura]

We also have an ability to set up neighborhoods. Each day, we send the name of a mothership title (like Tales of the Abyss) to Cabd and he sets up a neighborhood for all the people in that title. For instance, we sent him "Tales of the Abyss" today and he set up a neighborhood for us, BRO-Desp, Nacho-Bork, and GIF. (This is the reason why I haven't interacted with Nacho in thread and I figured ffery/others would pick up on it). Based on the interactions in the neighborhood, I am massively confident that BRO and Desp are town.

Guess I answered my own question about the 'hoods.

-b

[Kagura]

He either sees I'm town or pushes the fuck out of me until I'm sorted, usually. A game where he was town and I was scum and got past him all the way through to endgame just ended a few days ago. I thought that would give him reason to make sure it's a solid read in this game.

I mean I think the obvious conclusion there is that he hasn't put an iota of effort into this game since then - do you not agree?

Who are the leading lynch candidates besides mastin at this point?

-b

[Kagura]

F-16 can create them for each game, one per day. He chose Abyss first.

Yeah I saw on a reread.
I wanted to call choosing their own neighborhood town but it's probably null; I feel like town would choose their own neighborhood and scum would probably reluctantly do it too for fear of backlash when asked about it later.

-b

[Kagura]

depends

how likely do you think it is for there to be multiple millers?

After vesperia I am not going down that fucking road again in a cabd game.

-b

[Kagura]

You do realize CF thought that mastin and I were BUSSING EACH OTHER. THATS NOT A TOWN THING TO THINK.

When did 'wrong' (I obv don't think this either) become synonymous with 'scummy'?

-b

[Kagura]

@ bork: i don't get the reference even after looking at the roles. what do you mean?

I had 1 scum in JasonWazza / MDT because they both had rolecop-esque roles (jason was rolecop + neighborize, mdt was role copy (found out what the role was and then could use it that same night) and I was incredibly sure MDT was the last scum after jason flipped town.

Then orc was scum and I wanted to give up mafia because I fucking suck at it.

-b

[Kagura]

Look, I don't really want to belabor this because you are in the hydra so I'm not freaking out about the lack of either a clear townread or efforts to sort me on Nacho's part. It's curious enough to note, though.

Good. I feel considerably at ease with this answer.

re: 1738 - it looks like a quick breadthy summary but that's totes speculation.

-b

[Kagura]

How did PA factor into all of that?

? That has nothing to do with PA

i don't understand how that's even remotely similar to two people claiming miller. for all intents and purposes cabd just split a full rolecop into two separate roles and gave them other abilities.

That's significantly stronger than a single rolecop, but really my point is that I'm not going to put a lot of stock into setup spec based on a single collision of roles considering my past history with trying to do exactly that. Whether it be miller, rolecop, tracker, whatevs.

-b

[Kagura]

?? Are we talking about something different now.

Penguin was Nacho's hydra buddy in that game and was being used as a like a (usually unsuccessful) medium to communicate with Nacho in that game.

-b

[Kagura]

there is an appreciable difference between multiple versions of the same town PR and multiple people claiming to be millers. why are you grouping them together like this?

Yes, there's an appreciable difference, but they both involve the same basic premise.

But can you

quantify

what the appreciable difference is in regard to how likely it is for there to be 1 scum in [Miller, Miller] vs. 1 scum in [1-Shot Rolecop + neighbor, 3-Shot Role copy]?

Because I want to know why you think this is easily a more open and shut scenario considering we can confirm nothing about the millers other than they investigate guilty which won't help us?

-b

[Kagura]

how many miller claims would you be willing to accept and how do you envision a setup that is based around multiple town millers actually working?

If we see another miller, I'll actually reopen this conversation myself as I that's probably a threshold of concern simply due to site meta - I am not trying to argue that a setup with 3 town millers does not 'work'.

i cannot think of a situation where including multiple town millers is a good design choice. can you help me out here?

Good design choice in what regard? The millers are not confirmable as anything and they make cops slightly stronger if used effectively and weaker if not. That is about all they do if you don't bring site meta into it.

I don't really see how the setup 'doesn't work' in this hypothetical, so may need to be the one helping me out.
Is this any better or worse than a miller with no cop or a mafia doc with no vig, etc.?

-b

[Kagura]

pedit: worse.

go on...

-b

[Kagura]

Im just not convinced CF handled the situation like an actual miller.

Because they didn't claim at the beginning of the game?

-b

[Kagura]

He thinks AP is scum because of the wall wars with mastin, but since no one trusts his mastin read--despite being abjectly true--no one is giving him any time of day.
The badguys are shouting us down and the town is ignoring us.
He specifically hate two bad guys in particular(F-16, DespBRO). So much in fact that he is willing to play to make them lose if town.

I need to sleep, but can we talk when I wake up?

-b

[Kagura]

bork, what are your thoughts?

Every fiber of my being is telling me this is town rage.

The miller claim stuff is chaff compared to that.

Everyone in the neighborhood is telling me I'm wrong.

-b

[Kagura]

RBD has basically devolved into personal attacks at this point.

F-16, stop.
The way that the gamestate has devolved to this point has essentially has created a game state that is not good for anyone, that is not fun for anyone, that is not the way that any of us enjoy playing mafia. I am skimming and my reads are better than you. In fact, I am skimming hard as fuck in about 20 minute bursts, and I can guarantee my reads are better than yours.

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

After this post, RBD shouldn't be considered as a lynch.
Would you consider anyone else for a lynch after they posted something like this? No. Fuck no. Is your only excuse "oh he's the Don Corelone and he could fake this"? Because that's a horrible excuse and you know it.

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

After this post, RBD shouldn't be considered as a lynch.

Would you consider anyone else for a lynch after they posted something like this?

No. Fuck no. Is your only excuse "oh he's the Don Corelone and he could fake this"? Because that's a horrible excuse and you know it.

Yes? It's not really that indicative of anything unless it's followed up on, and it's still arguable then?

~Ceph

Please be my rock, Cephrir.
Please don't be incredibly blind.

[Kagura]

Nacho is BroDesp town?

If they are, they need to take their head out of their asses.
I sort of doubt it at this point, though.

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

[Kagura]

(It is rather funny how hypocritical F-16 can be while being blinded to it, though.
Basically every single issue he has with the play of Rancid and myself are things he himself has done.)

He's probably been pushed off the edge to a significant extent by aging insulted. Not everyone takes that sort of thing well.

[Kagura]

I'm willing to flashlynch them.

It bothers me that BRO sprang to life with AP's arrival. The energy level and not really logical yelling remind me of 167.

I can buy that BRO was excited to see AP in the game and stepped up his game as a result.
I can't buy that townBRO would generate the carnival of lunacy that's happening now.

[Kagura]

They are not scum.
They are not scum.
They are not scum.

[Kagura]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

If they do it and it looks genuine, I'd probably be swayed, but otherwise not by this alone.

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

[Kagura]

They are not scum.
They are not scum.
They are not scum.

DesBRO, Fox/Hound, or both?
Pedits make it hard to tell.

Can we lynch ap or desbro?

AP is a mehread. You can try, but you'll fail, and I'm not going to support it. (Won't fight it, though.) DesBRO is a "go ahead" read; I'm not convinced they'll flip scum, but eh, it's possible.

RBD.

[Kagura]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

I don't. If I was, I wouldn't have asked. I am really trying to understand why the only people on the same page as me are Pieguyn and BRO and Desp and not you or Tammy who are incredibly easy to be on the same page with. If I made a mistake, I'd rather you just bring it up so I can play better. I am not sure why me asking for votes on a wagon feels like "manipulation" for one.

I havent accused you of being manipulative at all.
Reconcile scum-Muffin with the recent meltdown.

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

After this post, RBD shouldn't be considered as a lynch.

Would you consider anyone else for a lynch after they posted something like this?

No. Fuck no. Is your only excuse "oh he's the Don Corelone and he could fake this"? Because that's a horrible excuse and you know it.

Yes? It's not really that indicative of anything unless it's followed up on, and it's still arguable then?

~Ceph

Please be my rock, Cephrir.
Please don't be incredibly blind.

I'm a candidate for being a rock now? Hum.
I'm doing the best I can with the mediocre-at-best eyes I have in my skull. I may respond well to being shown the proverbial light.

I expect you to care about my opinion as a player enough to recognize that I'm incredibly frustrated right now and seeing something going horribly horribly wrong with the RBD wagon and am not screaming for it to stop full stop for absolutely no reason. My thoughts aren't wrong, correct?

[Kagura]

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

You're probably better off directing this at Ceph than me right now as I'm not caught up and am not going to make Ceph change our vote with me having been so inactive lately, but I'm not sure I like a PV lynch either based on what I've read and am still MastinMastinMastin as far as scumreads go.

I'm trying to catch up though, and will get back to you if I form a more confident opinion.

Read through the RBD melt down posts and see if you can get what I'm saying: you don't need to be fully caught up in order to see what I see (because it really isn't that hard to see).

[Kagura]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

I don't. If I was, I wouldn't have asked. I am really trying to understand why the only people on the same page as me are Pieguyn and BRO and Desp and not you or Tammy who are incredibly easy to be on the same page with. If I made a mistake, I'd rather you just bring it up so I can play better. I am not sure why me asking for votes on a wagon feels like "manipulation" for one.

I havent accused you of being manipulative at all.
Reconcile scum-Muffin with the recent meltdown.

And Muffin and Nati are basically posting personal insults while I am trying to solve the game. I am not sure why you are directing your frustration at me rather than at them.

Probably because you're not the one being lynched. Mislynched imo.

!

[Kagura]

I think both BRO and Desp are really, really incredibly town.

Incredibly town would be a stretch.
Could be town is not, though.

Which is one reason I hesitate to support the wagon, there.

I don't.

Vote: Just Sheep Us

[Kagura]

You're not asking me to vote for your scum reads though, and you're not trying to get to the bottom of why I might be hesitant though I'm pretty sure I said why yesterday. You got after me for voting and unvoting last night, though anyone who's ever played with me before should be able to follow that, and then you're saying you don't understand my hesitancy and I've voted being less certain before. Sure, I have but that doesn't really have much bearing on right now.

I am much more okay to vote somewhere I don't feel great about when there is some semblance of town cohesion or direction. There is none here, at all. This game has fractured into factions who are just yelling and fist pumping they're right and right now I can't tell if it's a bunch of town silently being egged on by scum who are benefitting or if it's scum yelling the loudest. This game doesn't make any gorram sense to me right now, and I can't figure out who I'll be helping with m vote.

I don't think you have the game figured out as solidly as you think you do because it doesn't feel like the game makes sense that way.

Okay. My question about hesitancy was more of why you were trying to be absolutely certain before placing a vote as opposed to going with someone who has a decent chance of being scum. For instance, I remembered in PYP, you voted for PowerOfDeath even though you thought that you weren't sure and even though you actually thought there was a pretty good chance that he was town. Now, it seems like you need to be absolutely certain beyond 100% doubt that RBD is scum and if you have even the slightest doubt that they may be town, you'd default to not voting them or voting an unnamed counterwagon even though the same principle should apply to everyone you are voting for (i.e. you can't be absolutely certain PV is scum either, but you are not going to use that standard before you vote him.

I think it should be fairly obvious to you that I am town and Pieguyn is town even if nothing else. You'd obviously be helping us push our wagon. There is a good chance RBD is scum, that AP is scum, and that Mastin is scum. Because you can't be certain isn't a reason to vote a lurker because you can't be certain about that lurker being scum as well. RBD is no more an asset to the game than PV. Their primary contribution to the game has been yelling, insulting, and spamming and burying the thread.

I've talked about my big glaring town tell for RBD.
Why are you ignoring it?

[Kagura]

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

If they do it and it looks genuine, I'd probably be swayed, but otherwise not by this alone.

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

You can also talk about this, F-16.

[Kagura]

I think scum are much more likely to play according to past town meta (unless they don't like scum/are very transparent), while a town player's play is likely to be evolving such that their townplay

will

change.

You realize you argued earlier in the game that this game resembling your past townplay and not your scumplay made you town, right?

(Nullscum moves to weakscum.)

As DV has pointed out, this is apparently based on DV expressing one viewpoint while I expressed another.

Getting myself lynched first, watching as the town lynches my strongest townread, and secretly hoping the town loses is my thing. Don't go stealing it!

*shrug*

If Nati doesn't want to be lynched, he won't be lynched. I asked him to do something that could probably be considered against the spirit of the game, but since it's not a rule violation (I don't think) it will basically conftown us

In case it wasn't already obvious, I've asked him to paraphrase our entire hydra QT re: this game (200~ish posts so far, almost entirely me) - from the pre-game receiving role reactions to current, in order

I once again remind all people wagonning RBD of the post that should be enough to yank them out of their tunnel stupors.

If they do it and it looks genuine, I'd probably be swayed, but otherwise not by this alone.

They can't do it because it's a massive rules violation.
The way that this situation has come about is incredibly town and I really want you to think about if this comes from scum or not. Do you really think tha Muffin and Nati's frustration is fake, bullshitted, come up out of the blue? Because we have all seen Muffin fight lynches before. Has he ever fought a lynch like this at all?

Somehow I didn't get that 'rules violation' was the conclusion. I thought that the conclusion was 'meh, I don't feel like it', which wouldn't do much for me. Also, we asked if we could paraphrase or even quote parts of our hydra QT earlier in the game and it was fine, is that totally different?

I thought it could be. But I am feeling pretty good about you being town at this point (pretty much no thanks to you, but all the same) and I do trust towncho's reads more than my own. I don't know. If you can come up with a decent compromise lynch I might be okay with it but I'm not gonna go totally against my own reads either.

I haven't actually seen Muffin fight a lynch before that I recall?

~Ceph

Who are your strong townreads?

[Kagura]

Nacho, how do you seriously not see BRO town here? You've read the neighborhood QT and read everything in the game and the way he is going about pushing lynches is really, really obviously town because this isn't the way scum-BRO does it.

You're ignoring me.

[Kagura]

Vote: PeregrineV

[Kagura]

BRO, are you okay?

[Kagura]

Nacho, how do you seriously not see BRO town here? You've read the neighborhood QT and read everything in the game and the way he is going about pushing lynches is really, really obviously town because this isn't the way scum-BRO does it.

You're ignoring me.

FINE. I'll
UNVOTE:
and you can be happy for derailing a scum lynch even after a bunch of people put so much effort into making it happen just like you derailed the muffin lynch in Xenosaga.

I'm pretty sure people are just going to say "lol, you weren't convincing, we were wrong, it happens" and some such shit.

In Touhou, for shitty reasons.
I'm not derailing a scum lynch here.

[Kagura]

But if you want to take shitty potshots at me while still ignoring me, sure, go ahead! It's not like I don't feel like shit when I mess up in a spectacular way, it's not like I don't take steps to recalibrate and not make the same mistake again!

[Kagura]

Vore: orcinus

[Kagura]

Lord Business wagon might be tempting, but if we don't find one soon then my vote stays where is it.

Orc?

[Kagura]

F-16, you're still ignoring me.

[Kagura]

Vore: orcinus

gut?

because my gut is a little unsettled about him.

Gut!

[Kagura]

I see emotional meltdowns everywhere and I don't think any of them are coming from scum.

[Kagura]

It frustrates me that I see people shutting other people out because they refuse to agree with their point of view.

[Kagura]

Vote: orcinus

[Kagura]

Vote: orcinus

[Kagura]

Vote: orcinus