Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

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Ok. Tone-wise his short posts are coming off as much more direct to me, and the observations/reactions look more real. In his mid-to-long posts, the phrasing looks almost tortured and his points soemetimes don't build on each other. He's stuck with a small handful of players as far as making observations/foses/whatever which makes me think he's trying not to leave a lot of interactions lying around in the thread for later.

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It's interesting that both sides of 2 didn't say anything when I asked who they thought was scum.
They didn't mind quoting other posts of mine, though.

I don't remember you asking me that. Our reads in increasing levels of sureness have been posted a few times. I don't think it's difficult to figure out who we think are scum.

- f

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Look at post 1868. I screwed up and posted with my main. Quoted it with this account right after.

dude.

Look at post 1868. I screwed up and posted with my main. Quoted it with this account right after.

- f

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gah

highlight and quote work so weird on this site.

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trajectory is going to become a thing, isn't it?

- f

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I've been using trajectory to analyze series of posts for years. It's like pattern matching was before that. people usually decide what they think I mean and then go do something different.

You know what I mean by trajectory.

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@nacho It's dinnertime...so yeah. Do you want me to try the same when I get back? We'll probably focus on different stuff based on what I've seen in prior games.

- f

[²]

Aj

201 Aj agrees with nacho about svenskt, but his vote is elsewhere - on TD. claims vote reason is bad (because scum wouldn't ever claim miller day 1). evidently bad logic is scummy logic. he also dislikes the reason for unvoting - "huh. interesting".

450 Pushes TD lynch with nothing added in the way of case. Tiphaine made 1 post between 201 and 450. in 271 he voted svenskt. No mention of it.

617 First significantly long post. Here he's taking exception to nacho having a town read on TD. Rehashes original case (with links!) and adds the vote for svenskt (new stuff!). Snarks back about my having asked for a case gripes about thread size.

774 This post seems weird to me. Town reads nacho. doesn't like interactions between orcinus and varsoon. winds up with a scum pile consisting of TD, svenskt, varsoon, and orcinus from most to least strongly scum. Town reads 2, B&B, Nacho, BRO, Andrius, GIF. This gave me a town sense when I first read it because he was disagreeing with one "leader" and FoSing another.

783 dings Orcinus for not keeping his vote on varsoon once they kinda sorted each other out. So...it's bad for orcinus to change his mind?

945 excuses, "I'm not a perfect person" for the post that appeared to draw Nacho's attention "town vs town"

1148 backs off TD. Trajectory is sketchy here. Not clear why the vote change (ironic given his case on TD was in part based on poor explanation fro dropping a vote) Town list now "Bro, Andy, Sajin, GIF, Cabd, B&B, Nacho, Rach (In order of strength", scum: "TMT, Ghost, Mac (motive bad, reasoning good... light scum read), Metal sonic, dntfkingcare, possibly 2." town list is now strongly resembling where it looks like Nacho is headed. Switches vote to TMT.

1199 more dissing Orcinus.

1271 explaining reasons for changing mind on TD. This post gives me some town sense, except for the timing.

1291 More about orcinus ("AtE player"). case on us (mostly me). interesting to read. I'm being more aggressive in this game than in earlier games with this hydra partly because I am a known quantity to so many of the players. my usual role prior to b's coursework taking a lot of time was way more in the background than this game. I thought thre was some trajectory here. It seems to always be after the fact. scum list or vote, then reasons when pressed.

1329 He totally misses the the actual - null read, which was where I was at re Aj then.

1395 back to TMT, and more retroactive reasoning.

1675 Nacho's purge lists are...bad...because they would be followed without analysis/revisit/reality check. This is some screwy logic and the whole post is awkward sounding.

1704 more about the purge list and why it is a bad thing.



1430 case on TMT. wants reasons for TMT's read on him changing.


p-edit gah many posts. will look at them later.

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p-edit gah many posts. will look at them later.

a lot of this is summary and not motivation seeking; could you refine that post a little bit?

His reads started out individual and different from other players at the same time in the thread. he's pushed back at you repeatedly, and has actively dissed Orcinus, who is the other strong voice in the game. I've been reading his reactions to you as town. re orcinus, it seems more like driving a wedge or actively dissing.

The things that stand out to me are that he's had to be pressed each time for reasoning on his votes/read changes. the trajectory is backwards. he's not pushing his votes with reasons.

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What do you think of his interactions with you? I'd certainly call you a strong voice even though we've been hammering at you all game.

buldermar''s been a strong voice. If anything Aj has pounded on me a couple of times as the weaker link and maybe safer target.

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So the discussion was useful? What did you get from it. I still feel like it's inconclusive. It's the sort of case I would vote on as the clock ticked down if I didn't have a stronger case on someone else in hand.

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So the discussion was useful? What did you get from it. I still feel like it's inconclusive. It's the sort of case I would vote on as the clock ticked down if I didn't have a stronger case on someone else in hand.

We see different things, of course. I was afraid there was something that made him town that I just wasn't seeing, but calling him town for attacking town leaders early isn't necessarily the best thing to do when their reasons are shit. It reminded me of our limited interactions in Fire, and I'm noticing a bit of a smoking gun that I can't really discuss, unfortunately.

ok.

I thought I posted something about Sajin earlier this weekend but I can't find it.

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good/bad?
I've really clicked with his posts lately.

It was good mostly. Only thing was the lack of comment on recent stuff. but, holiday weekend.

grr.

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@Aj in the posts where you laid out some reasons for suspecting this slot it was all about my posts. I'm not the strong voice in this hydra. Nacho's comment that you are going after a strong player in us is IMO inaccurate.

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^^ - f

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2 is town. That last discussion with nacho cemented it.

Nacho, your points were almost mirrored

. Get over it, that read is wrong.

heh

that is not and should not be a point that pushes his read of us townward.

- f

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2 is town. That last discussion with nacho cemented it.

Nacho, your points were almost mirrored

. Get over it, that read is wrong.

heh

that is not and should not be a point that pushes his read of us townward.

- f

Isn't it Mollie who always says "Town thinks/moves in groups"? Or something cheesy like that? I personally don't believe it, but hey. Your points were both very similar, but at the same time different in small aspects. You're thinking on the same wavelength as Nacho unless you basically c/p'd the post he had, and I doubt you did that given the comments after.

herds.

No c/p. But, I think I could get some useful output from my mental model of town-Nacho.

- f

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I learned it from a red haired dwarf.

- f

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I learned it from a red haired dwarf.

- f

how is he btw? tell him I said hi

I already understood the concept when he took me on but he kind of showed me how to see it in a game.

The family is doing great. Unfortunately he's deliriously happy to get 4 solid hours of sleep in a night, because it doesn't happen very often at all.

- f

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I actually would like to hear from GiF about his varsoon read sometime soon. but, that hilarious plan to post role PMs for comparison was...wow. hard to see that coming out of a scum team.

(yeah, yeah I know. would never get past a scum player's self censor is not a good argument. But...wow.)

- f

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uhh I presume that is someone from another site that you two know?

Someone who helped teach us both how to play mafia. I think the lessons helped Mollie more than me. I had already grown a real weed of a scumhunting approach before he got hold of me.

- f

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hi guys.

I disagree with the varsoom=scum arguments. Still think The Reverend is town. If anything he's improved on the read he inherited from svenskt.

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It's interesting that both sides of 2 didn't say anything when I asked who they thought was scum.
They didn't mind quoting other posts of mine, though.

I know I've been away for some pages, but I'm going to catch up with posts now.

There are two possibilities with respect to why I didn't answer it. Either I felt like I had already stated who my scum reads were prior to your question (the most likely explanation), or I simply didn't notice the question.

I'll have to catch up with the game now and talk to f about reads but then I'll try to remember to make a post containing my reads.

- b

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you said that word and i loved it because it explains so much

It's a somewhat important term in developmental psychology too. I've used it in one of my papers ;D

- b

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andrius town

broseidon leaning town

ghoslin leaning town

2, nacho varsoon cabd strong town

Metal, could you give explanations for your reads? From reading your posts I'm under the impression that they are made up ad hoc merely to give others the impression that you're active and that you're reading the thread when you actually aren't.

- b

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Third paragraph of 1785 is a scum claim.

He's making himself sound unthreatnening, pandering to town interest, after forgetting that his counterpart claimed tracker/miller he is now making sure that all take notice. There is just so much subtle deflection in this post it does the opposite for me.

The paragraphs above are saying wifom is ok and not a big deal while at the same time inspiring a whole load of it is also bad. These kind of tactics are the same i often use as scum to great effect, thus I can spot them.

"happy to try" "Prove my alignment" "curious" these words are still in the, "look at me I am a happy team playing townie" vein of speech. While maintaining the stance that he's not angry at anyone who thinks he is scum.

1793 is more of the same.

"Simply hoping you'd save me the bother"
"form my own read"

Every word out of this mans mouth is trying so damned hard to be town he cannot possibly be.

I am completely certain that MS is scum, however given that no on else is I'll lift my vote on him to vote reverend, I maintain that anytime anyone wants to vote ms I'll be right there with them.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: reverend

This does look town-motivated. TD was also the one noticing Metal's infamous 1-min read IIRC. Will talk this over with f.

- b

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And let's talk about TD some more because his recent posts are really really town even though I don't necessarily agree with them.

You were probably right about him -_-.

- b

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Nah I'm not self voting. You're wrong TD.

You'll see my flip soon enough

.

What do you mean with the bolded part?

- b

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^

Agreed.

Sort of liked this post because it was a connect with someone else who trolls around a lot.

nacho town

freezerguy town

orc town

vassoon town

beautybeast town

mac town

tiphaine scum

sven troll

varsoon still town

cabd quite town

ghostlin leaning town


rach town

sajin leaning town

aj the epic leaning scum

broseidon leaning scum too i guess

I'll give reasons after the posting dies down. 50 pages(1000+ posts) in 72 hours, please no its torturous



2 getting scummier

aj leaning town now

ghostlin town

mac stil town

reverend a+ slip contradiction strong

beast leaning town

andrius town

also good luck with reading john or whoever had to read 50 pages

cabd and guy in freezer very town right now

ok i just iso'd tiphaine

except for #901
the rest of his posts are shit

yep scum

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

TMT is a null-leaning-town

except for his atrocious name

andrius town

broseidon leaning town

ghoslin leaning town

2, nacho varsoon cabd strong town

What I see here is a blatant, blatant lack of opportunism. I think scum in Ms's position would be a *tiny* bit opportunistic, but nope.

Could you elaborate on the supposed lack of opportunism? What I see is a whole bunch of arbitrary reads thrown out there to make us think he's actually reading the thread. I think he'd do this every time he's scum and sometimes when he's town.

- b

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24 hours and it is from page 1 to page 31

Damn it.

I skimmed the whole 700 page of wall

god damn 16 pages in 8 hours

I'll give reasons after the posting dies down. 50 pages(1000+ posts) in 72 hours, please no its torturous

3 hours and only just 1 post

we're making progress!

This is definitely the feel of a townie who is struggling to keep up with the thread. I can see scumSonic left behind in thread and annoyed about it, but I'd expect him to use being behind as a bit of an excuse, but he hasn't at all ever. He just complains because the game goes too fast.

Why is complaining about the pace of the game alignment indicative? The only thing I can think of is that scum metal perhaps would not do the complaining when he's also faking reads because that would create attention on the fact that he's faking his reads, but that's really stretching it.

- b

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I'm not going after you, though. If Nacho continues to believe your scum, he has some reading to do yet.

If Nacho remembers, the reason I got a hydra with him in the first place is because I have issues in large games. This is how I play large games, I try to find one or two people and go from there because I can't manage all 20 in my head. This is why I'm going after one at a time. In a 9 player game, i can find scum easily because I have an easier working to go through. I think in pictures and visuals so generally I look for a web of connections. That's a challenge in a 20 player game. (And it doesn't work when half the game is quiet). That's why I tunnel.

Bro, you skimming or scum? You missed a ton of points I expected you to find and hit recently. (This is what separates Andrius to Bro... Andrius is actually catching the main points).

2 is town. That last discussion with nacho cemented it. Nacho, your points were almost mirrored. Get over it, that read is wrong.

TmT is scum. Everyone knows it.

MS is still not useful if not scum. He needs to at least admit to not reading anything.

Actually, Rach is more town than anything to me. One thing I notice from a lot of games is scum wait until their target posts to vote for the target player. Rach didn't do that, which suggests a more certain freedom in action. That's more town than anything else.

(It's pretty obvious that some of Nacho's town reads are right, including Cabd, Mac)

B&B is town. The 'empathetic mollie' does not exist here. That alone is enough, but they've also got a good synergy and their reads generally seem to add up to what the other thinks. Synergy in a hydra is a towntell especially when posting independently because it means they're actually looking.

Varsoon can drop back down the ladder again. He wants me to be scum, is unhappy with my play, but sheeped me on my first post. He still hasn't played all that solid and he almost drew in Rev to be modkilled.

I like Ghostlin. I don't know what problem you guys have with him, but his posts play better than a lot of people's posting. They've gotten better, are more in touch, and he also agrees with me on TmT (which is, of course, immediate town points).

Sajin is town, has been that way forever.


This is what leads me to believe that scum is simply lurking. Bro, TmT (Both my major scum reads) are lurking. This is a common theme for many not on my list. Lurking. It's not the people posting (but perhaps Varsoon) that are scum so much as those who can't post anything worth reading.

From what I can tell, there is a lot of thought behind this post. I havn't been paying close attention to f and Nacho's talk regarding AJ, but he'd have to be a really good scum player for this to not be town-indicative in my opinion.

He is very wary of what's going on as evident by many of his reads. The explanation for why he's tunneling is also one I can relate to; I do a similar thing when I play in larger games. I tend to only pay attention to a handful of people and then work my way through the pool as the game progress and I get more strong reads.

He noticed that Bro isn't

really

reading the thread, which is a lot of work to do to get some town cred if you're a scum who just wants to identify easy targets for a mislynch.

He seems to have looked into the details of the conversation between f and Nacho regarding him.

I agree with his read regarding MS (either not useful or scum, and certainly not reading anything).

He also locks some town reads (i.e. Cabd and Mac) which I think most scum players in his position wouldn't do.

His view of Varsoon is very much in line with mine in that I'm not convinced Varsoon is town. I don't think him almost drawing Rev to be modkilled is alignment-indicative, though, and if it is it probably is more likely to suggest that he's town than scum.

In summary: I don't know what conclusion f and Nacho reached, but I think that for AJ to be scum he'd have to be a really, really dedicated and deliberate scum player.

- b

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you & 2 are my strong scumreads.

Mac, why are you reading us as scum again? I've put aside my emotions and frustration and will do my best to walk you through any thought process related to posts that you think are scum indicative.

- b

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2 is town. That last discussion with nacho cemented it.

Nacho, your points were almost mirrored

. Get over it, that read is wrong.

heh

that is not and should not be a point that pushes his read of us townward.

- f

Isn't it Mollie who always says "Town thinks/moves in groups"? Or something cheesy like that? I personally don't believe it, but hey. Your points were both very similar, but at the same time different in small aspects. You're thinking on the same wavelength as Nacho unless you basically c/p'd the post he had, and I doubt you did that given the comments after.

This underlines my previous statement regarding AJ paying closely attention to the content of posts.

- b

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I'm reading varsoon's ISO and I'd like to rephrase that last comment...

varsoon is scum and it's obvious as shit.

Could you explain this a bit more?

- b

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Spoiler:

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

Why townclaim first post?

Oh, I'm just town. I'm not gonna claim any more than that, because then I'm doing scum's work for them.

Weird thing to say.

I'm not really convinced you're scum or town right now, Sven. Leaning more town than scum, but who knows?

Fence sitting on miller issue.

Don't worry so much about that, Orcinus. I'll be playing pretty regular town today with a bit of sleuthing if I find time for it.

More pointless town talk. This is still only his 2nd post, how many times has he said "town"?

Not putting a vote anywhere since I don't feel strongly enough to do so.

Still 2nd post.

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Yeah still 2nd post.

Regardless, I'm not going to think of you as miller-tracker, but as Sven, the maybe-town-guy.

Not 2nd post any more! Still fence sitting on miller.

I'm always town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

He really wants to emphasise his alignment, doesn't he?

I'm a girl, too. Girl-power, I guess.

Girl claim? Your profile says male! Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a scumtell, but it confuses me all the same.

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

Scum claim harder please.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

HARDER I SAY.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.

Ooh that's good, that's real good.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.

Oh man that's the one, perfecto.

I can't be bothered to keep walling. Everything I read from varsoon gives me weird vibes. This is scum.

I find the 3rd last and last quote of post 675 to be the most convincing, but I'm not entirely sold. His play style reminds me of a style a guy in my very first game played. I thought he was scum and mistakingly pushed his lynch.

- b

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but, that hilarious plan to post role PMs for comparison was...wow. hard to see that coming out of a scum team.

This is what I pointed out earlier when commenting on AJ's wall-post fwiw.

- b

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Wow, just wow.

vote varsoon

I hereby formally apologize rev, I think I was wrong about you.

I expect others will be asking you about this in the subsequent posts.

- b

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I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon

Rev, would you not agree that his shift to varsoon could also be an opportunistic one? I didn't like the "Wow, just wow" comment, it didn't look particularly sincere to me.

- b

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I've never read town write "Wow, just wow."
Scumslip.

This is how I feel about it and it hurts deep inside what I told Nacho wrt TD some posts ago.

- b

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Haven't paid much attention to Orc or 2,, but Nacho literally always plays the same from what Ive seen. So nulln o him

He's way more dedicated to this game than what I'm used to. How far are you in your read?

- b

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KEYBLADEWIELDER: I'd like to know who you think is definitely scum, and WHY.
Furthermore, if you could provide explained reads (maybe a sentence or two each) for every player in this game, I'll believe that you've caught up.
Otherwise, you come off to me as scum trying to go under the radar.
And I don't like scum who fly under my radar.

How do you read Metal?

- b

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I'd like to know the same from you. Your posts have been pretty light on content up to this point and I feel like you've got a very powerful few points to make, but that a lot of players doubt you/put you in scum piles based on the content and articulation of what you've posted so far. Could you please explain your current scum-reads, and let us know who you think is definitely/most likely town. Also, if you have any questions for me, this is a good time to pitch them, as we're both online.

Ultimately, I feel like you could be town, but I want to hear a lot more from you before I can verify that. You've been playing a somewhat shy hand so far, and if you're gonna be town, you gotta expose yourself and open up.

Nvm that.

Why in particular do you find metal likely to be town when he has done exactly what you would otherwise find scummy from someone else?

- b

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Buildermar (hope that's spelled right)

It's spelled "Buldermar", but I'm getting used to few being able to spell it correctly.

- b

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I mean what it says. I don't expect to be alive in this game for long. I was lazily defending vs TD, the "you'll see you're wrong soon" defence. I can't be btohered to fight my corner to be honest, I feel my time is better spent trying to scumhunt.

Alright. You asked me before what it is that I find anti-town. This is an example of something that I consider inherently anti-town (mollie, pay attention to this as well because you wanted me to examplify). It should be evident why it's anti-town from the explanation you just gave me.

Anyway, it's not that important, just felt like pointing it out.

- b

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More fluffy questions. Again, it means exactly what it implies. I think varsoon is scum, I ISO him, as I read through, my scumread strengthens significantly. The language he uses. The manner in which he attacks people, and defends himself. The relentless townclaims. The shrugging off of awkward questions. Why don't you read his ISO and see if it becomes obvious to you?

It's not a fluffy question; I wanted to know why you thought it was obvious that he's scum. You later gave an explanation in a wall of quotes, and I only found a few of them scummy.

I couldn't deduce all of the things you just told me now from that post either. I think his language, the manner in which he attacks people and defends himself, and the relentless townclaims could all come from town. I mentioned that I played a game (my very first game ever) with a guy whose style is like this. I can link you if you want to see an example of it coming from town.

- b

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I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon

Rev, would you not agree that his shift to varsoon could also be an opportunistic one? I didn't like the "Wow, just wow" comment, it didn't look particularly sincere to me.

- b

Cabd, you think TD is bussing varsoon here? I'd be more inclined to look at TD in the event of a varsoon town flip, though tbh I'd expect to die very fast if that were to happen. I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon. But if varsoon were to flip town, his vote would then be very opportunistic, and would rightly deserve scrutiny.

The answer to your question is in the post of mine you quoted. I can't help feel your trying very hard to make it look like you're probing.

I had not read your post in its entirety prior to posing the question. I didn't understand the "especially with his shift to varsoon" part in particular because it's specifically his shift to varsoon that could be considered opportunistic.

- b

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you & 2 are my strong scumreads.

Mac, why are you reading us as scum again? I've put aside my emotions and frustration and will do my best to walk you through any thought process related to posts that you think are scum indicative.

- b

okay so I had a shot at you for tentative reads which was obviously a mistake given your current situation but I feel ff is being extremely cautious for reads, something which is pretty unlike her I'd say. I called her out in pj for this & a fencesitting attitude she had developed and she was indie. I can see similarities between this and pj in that ff (and, to an extent, yourself) had developed no strong reads in around 60 pages. it just feels off: obviously you have your exams situation (i wish you all the best for them) but I don't think there are any excuses for f being cautious. if anything, until you are back in business, I feel like she should become the more aggressive head imo. but that's entirely your choice as a hydra, not my call.

Thank you for wishing me the best. I just finished my first paper yesterday (in developmental psychology). Two left: cognitive neuroscience and work and organizational psychology.

I can't really respond for f though, so I guess this is something you and her will have to discuss.

- b

[²]

rev, mac

what 2 is doing right now is spam posting and burying good content with shit posts so that when orc comes back from v/la, andy checks back in, sajin pops i, nacho comes back they will have wade through pages and pages and try to keep track of relevant points. rev you have direct experience of scum doing this, this is what uber goober did in posh and everyone for some god knows reason had him as town for it. do you understand now why I wanted uber goober lynched so bad? it is a subtle way for scum to try to undermine the control that town has in the game. and trust me, town is in control.

so stop helping him do this okay?

both of you keep your eyes on me and stay focused

2 do you think you could pretend to be town for 5 minutes and stop posting

I think you're being both unfair and immature. I only recall making one post that I didn't think was particularly important. Could you please quote every single post you think is extraneous? You're trying to paint me for something you know I'm not just to get your wagon going, which is anti-town. I'm also offended that you think I'd deliberately spam the thread to my advantage - something you know I consider quite unethical, similar to deliberately trying to get certain players mod-killed or deliberately pretending to be busy IRL when you're not.

I'm expecting you to show the post that are extraneous and will be accepting your subsequent apology for suggesting that I'm spamming deliberately to make the thread impossible to read.

[²]

I've just talked to f for some time and we worked out this combined/total reads list:

2. Aj The Epic: f would settle for a lynch of him, but prefers TMT or TD. f also ended up agreeing with Nacho on most of his points in his case, but doesn't feel like it's a super strong case (I havn't read it). I personally think he'd have to be a really strong scum player to play this way as scum, because he's paying attention to a lot of subtle things that couldn't come from figuring out whose mislynch to push.
3. Andrius: painfully town in f's opinion (which I sheep).
4. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy + pirate mollie): obvtown for both of us.
5. BROseidon: f reads him as town for meta reasons. I'm not as convinced but I'll trust it.
6. Cabd: We both think he's town; f is weighting in Nacho's opinion as well.
7. dntfkingcare: null
8. Ghostlin: f is leaning town and liked the progression of his questions.
9. GuyInFreezer: town
10. Keybladewielder/jon_h61: null, but f thinks his reads sucks (and I think he's not reading at all)
11. Mac: town
12. Metal Sonic: I'm leaning scum
13. orcinus_theoriginal: town
14. RachMarie: neither of us can read her
15. Sajin: leaning town (f's read)
16. TheReverend/Svenskt Stål: town
17. Nachomamma8: town
18. TiphaineDeath: scum
19. TMTOLBTWNTOF: scum
20. Varsoon: I don't know but f thinks town. Also, if there is daychat for scum, that essentially confirms him as town because of him not being stopped prior to attempting his gambit (we don't think it could have been fabricated deliberately).

[²]

you & 2 are my strong scumreads.

Mac, why are you reading us as scum again? I've put aside my emotions and frustration and will do my best to walk you through any thought process related to posts that you think are scum indicative.

- b

okay so I had a shot at you for tentative reads which was obviously a mistake given your current situation but I feel ff is being extremely cautious for reads, something which is pretty unlike her I'd say. I called her out in pj for this & a fencesitting attitude she had developed and she was indie. I can see similarities between this and pj in that ff (and, to an extent, yourself) had developed no strong reads in around 60 pages. it just feels off: obviously you have your exams situation (i wish you all the best for them) but I don't think there are any excuses for f being cautious. if anything, until you are back in business, I feel like she should become the more aggressive head imo. but that's entirely your choice as a hydra, not my call.

Thank you for wishing me the best. I just finished my first paper yesterday (in developmental psychology). Two left: cognitive neuroscience and work and organizational psychology.

I can't really respond for f though, so I guess this is something you and her will have to discuss.

- b

I'm around.

- f

[²]

Haven't paid much attention to Orc or 2,, but Nacho literally always plays the same from what Ive seen. So nulln o him

He's way more dedicated to this game than what I'm used to. How far are you in your read?

- b

he was pretty dedicated in pj

Well why don't you ask him of his opinion, then?

- b

[²]

I also strongly feel this is multiball. Mollie is still unsure.

I could see it going either way, not like it matters this early on.

I actually think it especially matters this early on. Multiball allows for scum to do legitimate scum hunting, which in turn makes it more difficult for town to identify scum.

- b

[²]

If an SK exists, it's Nacho. But Nacho seems pretty towny, so I'm leaning towards two teams of 3.

I'm pretty sure f would have picked up on Nacho being a SK and I feel like I would too.

- b

[²]

Personal modding experience on sites not named mafiascum.

Usually 20 man games are 5/15 (or 4/16 if scum has super good power roles) from everything I've seen before.
But like I said, I'm much newer to the site than the rest of you, for all I know multiball is the standard here. From a mod POV I just find multiball so hard to balance properly, it's a nightmare.

Your personal experience may not translate very well that of others. I wouldn't say that multiball is standard here, but it is not unheard of.

- b

[²]

i just have a message for 2

buldermar, please dont be prejudiced and denounce me scum

even your partner does not have such strong feelings, ffery could you help me a bit here to explain to b thanks

Show me an example of a game in which you pretended to have read pages you didn't actually read and made up reads you couldn't actually have had at the time as town.

- b

[²]

Why were you acting as if you had read the pages that you clearly had not read?

- b

[²]

You should read the second sentence you quoted there.

If an SK exists, it isn't Nacho, which is what you suggested. Why should I read the second sentence when it's not relevant?

- b

[²]

Are you admitting that you actively lied about reading? Because that's what this looks like.

Please don't interfere with my scumhunting.

- b

[²]

Because... it is relevant?

Herp derp?

No, because Nacho can't simultanously be SK and town.

- b

[²]

Are you fucking kidding me right now with this?

No, I'm serious. You are essentially telling him "don't admit to this, it will look scummy". Is it a problem that I am having a conversation with Metal that you are not a part of?

- b

[²]

cos it is against da rulez?

No it is not?

- b

[²]

cos it is against da rulez?

No it is not?

- b

yes it is. I can't say what is for a similar reason nacho can't say what his smoking gun on aj is. I double checked with borky and he said he would prefer that I didn't.

majiffy doesn't think it is a smoking gun as all that cos he is townreading you right now but he has no refutation to what I am saying so he is following my lead.

I can't think of anything that would be against the rules other than it being a reference to an ongoing game, in which case you have already broken the rules by even mentioning it. I don't get it.

- b

[²]

2, do you consider my post(s) against you so insignificant i'm not worth responding to? Or did I miss your response in the wave of posts?

checking for them.

- f

[²]

This hydra sure does talk a lot. 2 is sitting in the scum list of around half the town right now, and I'm inclined to agree. Personally, going back and seeing the first few pages did it for me, with the early read of sven of town without any other context, guts me to think that they know full well sven's alignment and that they're telling the truth. If 2 flips scum at the end of today, I'll feel much better about our miller slot, as well. The "4 scum" thing that happened in not one but TWO posts is pretty damning too.

cabd, this is all I could find that looked specific to us.

the svenskt read is mine, not buldermar's though I think he believes I have the experiential meta to make a reasonable call. My initial read on svenskt was maybe town...wait and see. the replace-out looked town-motivated to me for two reasons. First, because I've seen him replace out before out of annoyance as town. But more importantly because although not being in a position to lead due to role, not due to some horrible gaffe, would bother town-svenskt immensely, being relegated to the sidelines and not drawing much attention would suit scum-svenskt's purposes well.

Rev's posts, attitude about being miller, and his analyses have if anything moved the slot further townward.

Re the 4 scum, that's how many were in my scumpile, and I kept searching and thinking about nulls to get to at least 4 because I do guess that there will be 4 scum at minimum in a game this size. I hadn't thought about multiple factions, but it is possible in a 20 player game. I usually start thinking about 2 full factions when I am designing for 22 or more players.

- f

[²]

Thank you. Still waiting to hear what "OMG AMAZING" scumslip 2 made, though, before I sign on to vote them. My new hesitation comes from BB pushing so hard for 2 and the earlier issue about setup speculation sounding so darn sure of it....

So am I

- f

[²]

majiffy always speaks authoritively

no matter what he is talking about.

I am going to snap a collar around his neck and keep him on a short leash

if he doesn't stop this....w/e it is he is trying to do.

xD

- b

[²]

2, do you consider my post(s) against you so insignificant i'm not worth responding to? Or did I miss your response in the wave of posts?

I don't recall the questions. Could you quote them? Maybe I considered them insignificant, or maybe I missed them.

- b

[²]

@mollie

I was wondering if you bothered to do a search on my account and "townish" on the site where I've mostly played. I've been kinda waiting for you to follow up on that, but I think you're too sure of yourself to bother.

If you had, you would have gotten 236 returned posts. I haven't checked the other sites where I've played a lot, but I'd be surprised if there aren't at least another 200 or so occurances. shouldn't take too much context checking to see that I don't use the term to signify "slightly" or "a little" townlike.

- f

[²]

Is it a problem that I'd like to interact with a slot a good majority of the playerlist disagrees with me on?

It's a problem when you are directly guiding him in his answers to my questions. Stop pretending to be stupid, mollie, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

- b

[²]

2, do you consider my post(s) against you so insignificant i'm not worth responding to? Or did I miss your response in the wave of posts?

I don't recall the questions. Could you quote them? Maybe I considered them insignificant, or maybe I missed them.

- b

It's fine, f got them for me.

Alright, sorry.

- b

[²]

This hydra sure does talk a lot. 2 is sitting in the scum list of around half the town right now, and I'm inclined to agree. Personally, going back and seeing the first few pages did it for me, with the early read of sven of town without any other context, guts me to think that they know full well sven's alignment and that they're telling the truth. If 2 flips scum at the end of today, I'll feel much better about our miller slot, as well. The "4 scum" thing that happened in not one but TWO posts is pretty damning too.

cabd, this is all I could find that looked specific to us.

the svenskt read is mine, not buldermar's though I think he believes I have the experiential meta to make a reasonable call. My initial read on svenskt was maybe town...wait and see. the replace-out looked town-motivated to me for two reasons. First, because I've seen him replace out before out of annoyance as town. But more importantly because although not being in a position to lead due to role, not due to some horrible gaffe, would bother town-svenskt immensely, being relegated to the sidelines and not drawing much attention would suit scum-svenskt's purposes well.

Rev's posts, attitude about being miller, and his analyses have if anything moved the slot further townward.

Re the 4 scum, that's how many were in my scumpile, and I kept searching and thinking about nulls to get to at least 4 because I do guess that there will be 4 scum at minimum in a game this size. I hadn't thought about multiple factions, but it is possible in a 20 player game. I usually start thinking about 2 full factions when I am designing for 22 or more players.

- f

IIRC I stated in this thread why I thought scum-sven would be less likely to sub out in the manner he did than town-sven would (although I don't actually recall my thoughts right now - I'd have to find the specific post). Other than that, what f said is accurate.

If there is anything specific that you'd like for me to answer let me know.

- b

[²]

@mollie

I was wondering if you bothered to do a search on my account and "townish" on the site where I've mostly played. I've been kinda waiting for you to follow up on that, but I think you're too sure of yourself to bother.

If you had, you would have gotten 236 returned posts. I haven't checked the other sites where I've played a lot, but I'd be surprised if there aren't at least another 200 or so occurances. shouldn't take too much context checking to see that I don't use the term to signify "slightly" or "a little" townlike.

- f

nah. it was a weak point and certainly not my major one. I am getting cosy with andy now so it won't be necessary.

It was a beautifully townish post.

gah

[²]

Cabd, I owe you some thanks for pressing for clarity because it's really brought home to me absurdity of this fogbank of a case on us that mollie has been pushing.

- f

[²]

Is it a problem that I'd like to interact with a slot a good majority of the playerlist disagrees with me on?

It's a problem when you are directly guiding him in his answers to my questions. Stop pretending to be stupid, mollie, you know exactly what I'm talking about.

- b

that was majiffy lol, as if you did not know that

oh yeah I am supposed to be signing my posts

-mollie

I'm not going to spend my time figuring out who wrote what when you could just be signing your posts. I thought I was talking to you.

- b

[²]

@bork can you at least confirm that you did in fact tell BB/Nacho they could not post a certain amount of information?

I'll personally jump off a cliff if bork comments on this.

- b

[²]

It is unethical as fuck to push a lynch on "illegal" evidence that you can't even speak about.

It is, but it happens all of the time. The solution to the problem is obviously to allow all talk about ongoing games site-wide - I don't understand why the rule was made in the first place because you can't really ignore available information, you can only whistle and act as if it's not there and your decision is based on something else.

But that's all besides the point in this game. Mollie is making a mistake with her meta-read as evident by us being town, but we can't actually point out that mistake. In effect, she is abusing (perhaps not deliberately) the fact that she is prohibited from bringing into this game the details about the content of the ongoing game that she is already referring to (that is, she could do this exact thing as scum as well and pretend to have a meta read from an ongoing game, knowing that she couldn't be questioned on it because that would be against the rules, and there is no way to refute this hypothesis). The most likely scenario is that she found something that easily could be refuted, but since she can't talk about it she wont realize that and she also can't just pretend it's not there and ignore it. This all boils down to the rules being retarded as fuck.

- b

[²]

Buldermar (part of 2) posted the first wall he's ever posted (I guess)

This is incorrect. Back in the day I almost exclusively posted walls.

- b

[²]

let's stop here. not being shown and not existing are two very different things. do you understand this? <----- this is a question I want you to answer. I want to make sure you understand. it is a yes or no question I don't want to hear anything else but yes or no.

If you were this condescending to me I'd tell you to go fuck yourself.

- b

[²]

nacho has a scum read on buldey and I am trusting him on it.

Oh he does? I'm looking forward to hearing about that because it's my impression that you are being paranoid about f due to history and that Nacho is blindly sheeping you because he doesn't know better.

Do you by any chance remember the supposed scum read Nacho has on us?

Also, f will probably address the points you have raised wrt her if she didn't already. Whatever you think your read is leading to the conclusion that we're scum, it necessarily is based on flawed logic, so it's really just a matter of figuring out where you went wrong. The more specific you can be, the better. At least you're being a bit more explicit about your reasons now.

[²]

I also have a light scum read on buldey just based off his play. the only thing that remotely looks genuine was his outrage that I would think that he would spam the thread intentionally as a scum tactic. his outrage looked genuine and it probably is cos all that he is saying here is that he spams the thread regardless of alignment. <----- alignment neutral so he gets no points for genuine outrage. everything else looks vaguely scummy and his epic flail earlier looks like scum who has been caught not frustrated town. nacho and I will talk and we will go from there.

You have an unseen talent of turning anything I do or say into scummy behavior once you have decided that I'm scum. It really

is

pointless to attempt to have a meaningful conversation with you because of this. Do I have to start linking to games in which I was town and you were absolutely convinced that you caught me in scum behavior X Y Z and got me mislynched because of it?

- b

[²]

Nacho, where are you? (Is Nacho on VLA?)

He said he'd be back today.

- b

[²]

don't just take my word for it cos there is a chance that I could be wrong, I just don't think I am.

I think this is the first time all game you have even entertained the possibility of you being wrong. Glad to see that you're at least making progress.

- b

[²]

It is unethical as fuck to push a lynch on "illegal" evidence that you can't even speak about.

It is, but it happens all of the time. The solution to the problem is obviously to allow all talk about ongoing games site-wide - I don't understand why the rule was made in the first place because you can't really ignore available information, you can only whistle and act as if it's not there and your decision is based on something else.

But that's all besides the point in this game. Mollie is making a mistake with her meta-read as evident by us being town, but we can't actually point out that mistake. In effect, she is abusing (perhaps not deliberately) the fact that she is prohibited from bringing into this game the details about the content of the ongoing game that she is already referring to (that is, she could do this exact thing as scum as well and pretend to have a meta read from an ongoing game, knowing that she couldn't be questioned on it because that would be against the rules, and there is no way to refute this hypothesis). The most likely scenario is that she found something that easily could be refuted, but since she can't talk about it she wont realize that and she also can't just pretend it's not there and ignore it. This all boils down to the rules being retarded as fuck.

- b

you disingenuous little shithead. you are really fucking slimey you know that? that isn't at all what is going on and you perfectly well know it. you are using what I can't talk about to try to discredit me <-------scum

VOTE: 2

mac, rev plz vote 2 it will make me happy

It's

exactly

what's going on. How the fuck am I using "what you can't talk about" to discredit you? I'm telling you and others that you are wrong and that we can't show you where you're wrong because you can't even tell us what it is you think you're right about. I don't see any fucking way you're scum this game, but I swear that if you are and you made up this meta read to get us mislynched then I will never play with you again.

- b

[²]

I'm not particularly liking an AJ lynch just because I feel like AJ would have to be exceptionally skilled to play this way as scum - I still don't get why we're letting the "low hanging fruit" that is TMT live.

- b

[²]

@mollie (and mac too, though I think mac has actually seen some of the changes in my game over the last couple months)

link to my most recently completed game: http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 83&t=28260

I am not playing to my off-site meta in MS games. my game at MS has been growing more tentative over the last couple of months for a variety of reasons, mostly related to realizing that my offsite game doesn't work here, not without some serious refitting.

I am not sure how long it will take for me to settle on something that works better here. I'm still wrapping my head around all the subtle strategy and tactics associated with majority lynch. The big and obvious stuff are big and obvious but it hardly ends with them.

I've sai before that I expect to get lynched early more often than my norm while I adjust. I have been thinking this game will

not

be one of those occasions, because I keep thinking that you'll figure some of this out on your own. Starting to think that I am wrong.

- f

[²]

let's stop here. not being shown and not existing are two very different things. do you understand this? <----- this is a question I want you to answer. I want to make sure you understand. it is a yes or no question I don't want to hear anything else but yes or no.

If you were this condescending to me I'd tell you to go fuck yourself.

- b

this is a fluff post

there is no purpose to this post but to fuel the spat between cabd and I. cabd is cleared for that alone cos the only motivation behind that post is a scum one encouraging a town on town tard fight. town buldey can tune out town noise, scum buldey is actively encouraging it.

If anything me pointing out that you were being condescending works to your advantage. Even if I were trying to manipulate him into fighting you instead of trusting you (which isn't the case), why would that be scum motivated rather than town motivated?

- b

[²]

don't just take my word for it cos there is a chance that I could be wrong, I just don't think I am.

I think this is the first time all game you have even entertained the possibility of you being wrong. Glad to see that you're at least making progress.

- b

why are you trying to make me angry buldey?

cos there was no purpose to this post.

I'm fucking annoyed with you. It feels like you have some sort of personal vendetta against me.

- b

[²]

2, it's psychology. When you convince yourself of something, there is no reasonable way to change that opinion by someone else. Which is why I've stopped fighting it. If it's inevitable, I'll get lynched and simply move on to the other games I'm in.

It's called confirmation bias and there are reasonable ways to remain fairly unbiased. I think mollie is an excellent player in many respects, but I think she's particularly terrible at adjusting her reads once she settles on something and it is annoying me more than anything else I can think of.

- b

[²]

I'm not particularly liking an AJ lynch just because I feel like AJ would have to be exceptionally skilled to play this way as scum - I still don't get why we're letting the "low hanging fruit" that is TMT live.

- b

Build a case against TMT, then.

I consider cases to be a retarded concept (speaking of confirmation bias), but I can find the posts in which f and I explained why we think he looks bad.

- b

[²]

It's

exactly

what's going on.

How the fuck am I using "what you can't talk about" to discredit you?

I'm telling you and others that you are wrong and that we can't show you where you're wrong because you can't even tell us what it is you think you're right about. I don't see any fucking way you're scum this game, but I swear that if you are and you made up this meta read to get us mislynched then I will never play with you again.

- b

But that's all besides the point in this game. Mollie is making a mistake with her meta-read as evident by us being town, but we can't actually point out that mistake. In effect, she is abusing (perhaps not deliberately) the fact that she is prohibited from bringing into this game the details about the content of the ongoing game that she is already referring to (that is, she could do this exact thing as scum as well and pretend to have a meta read from an ongoing game, knowing that she couldn't be questioned on it because that would be against the rules, and there is no way to refute this hypothesis).

The most likely scenario is that she found something that easily could be refuted, but since she can't talk about it she wont realize that and she also can't just pretend it's not there and ignore it

. This all boils down to the rules being retarded as fuck.

that looks like a discredit to me

and oh yes. plz go and find a completed game where

I

got you lynched when you were town. plz put up or stfu.

To me it looks like the most likely scenario. I'll find examples now.

- b

[²]

In this game I said "You're welcome, mollie." at the beginning of day 2 when there was no nk. She and another person thought I was soft-claiming doc as scum to get the real doc to out himself and I got mislynched for it. This is also how she got her signature:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... []=4612458

Another example:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... []=4651393

Then there is off-site examples and examples from

somewhere

I can't and wont talk about.

- b

[²]

Wtf happened to those links...

[²]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24180
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23927

Guess you'll have to dig through the posts yourselves.

- b

[²]

I'm starting to suspect we might have a lyncher/lynchee... but I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing that would be in a game like this. Would explain a lot though.

I don't know - Majiffy doesn't seem to be pushing us like mollie... but if that was planned I guess it still would make sense. Also, I doubt Majiffy and mollie would be playing to their town meta like this if they were a lyncher.

- b

[²]

mollie you're being an idiot here. referring to this stupid crap with cabd. not the stupid crap with buldermar and me. him telling you to back off pushing your reads on him is hellishly townie.

p-edit also your nicknames for players are horrible, condescending and sophomoric.

- f

[²]

and you smell funny

- f

[²]

mollie <3 fery

except for the part about smelling funny, I'm dead serious.

- f

[²]

Nah, as pointed out to me, mod specifically said no lynchers/lynchees.

Yeah I saw that after but didn't point it out because mollie is being a pain in the ass each time I make a post that isn't absolutely needed.

- b

[²]

In this game I said "You're welcome, mollie." at the beginning of day 2 when there was no nk. She and another person thought I was soft-claiming doc as scum to get the real doc to out himself and I got mislynched for it. This is also how she got her signature:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... []=4612458

Another example:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/posting.php? ... []=4651393

Then there is off-site examples and examples from

somewhere

I can't and wont talk about.

- b

in the first example I did not get you lynched. I thought you were scum, yes, but then you started town flailing and I read you as town moved my vote and tried to shift the lynch off of you. but you had pissed jake off to the point that he simply wanted you out of the game I think. his was the pivotal vote and you fucked up that one up all on your own. so your blame is misplaced.

the second exaple leads to a "no multi-posts" not a link to a game.

try again

Yes you did; you tunneled med to a point at which it was impossible for me to avoid the lynch. I didn't fuck that one up on my own, you did a lot of the work. Why don't you go reread the game if you're having trouble remembering what went on?

I posted the actual games below - dunno what happened with the links. Initially I had linked to the most important posts of the game.

[²]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24180
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23927

Guess you'll have to dig through the posts yourselves.

- b

oh that is the second one? lol. you do realise rach marie is in this game don't you?

I didn't push for your lynch I pushed you for a read, got a town one,

and actively worked with you the rest of the game

.

so in other words, you are lying about me getting you lynched in those games.

gee buldey, I wonder why I think you are scum.

In that case, why were you apologizing postgame? You're blatantly lying now to get your agenda moving along in this game. That is, you're being inherently anti-town. You did not "push me for a read". You didn't "get me lynched" in that second game, but we discussed the fact that you always tunnel me in detail. I'll find the specific post since you're still calling me a liar.

- b

[²]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4651393

does this link work?

- b

[²]

It's

exactly

what's going on.

How the fuck am I using "what you can't talk about" to discredit you?

I'm telling you and others that you are wrong and that we can't show you where you're wrong because you can't even tell us what it is you think you're right about. I don't see any fucking way you're scum this game, but I swear that if you are and you made up this meta read to get us mislynched then I will never play with you again.

- b

But that's all besides the point in this game. Mollie is making a mistake with her meta-read as evident by us being town, but we can't actually point out that mistake. In effect, she is abusing (perhaps not deliberately) the fact that she is prohibited from bringing into this game the details about the content of the ongoing game that she is already referring to (that is, she could do this exact thing as scum as well and pretend to have a meta read from an ongoing game, knowing that she couldn't be questioned on it because that would be against the rules, and there is no way to refute this hypothesis).

The most likely scenario is that she found something that easily could be refuted, but since she can't talk about it she wont realize that and she also can't just pretend it's not there and ignore it

. This all boils down to the rules being retarded as fuck.

that looks like a discredit to me

and oh yes. plz go and find a completed game where

I

got you lynched when you were town. plz put up or stfu.

To me it looks like the most likely scenario. I'll find examples now.

- b

so you want to perpetuate a discussion that could potentially lead to rulebreaking.

nope. not scummy at all.

how you work less to try to discredit me and do something protown like scumhunt or something.

oh wait. you would have had to receive town role pm in order to do that huh

You saying I can't do scumhunting as scum isn't really compatible with all the games in which you talk about how good I am as scum and how careful everyone has to be about me, is it? I can't talk to you when you're tunneling like this, mollie, just as I havn't been able to in previous games that we have played.

- b

[²]

I'm starting to suspect we might have a lyncher/lynchee... but I'm not sure if that's the sort of thing that would be in a game like this. Would explain a lot though.

Please don't start with this. If there is 3rd party win condition should not affect town play ever. The victory condition for such a 3rd party will not end the game prematurely, and if it does I will lynch the mod in the post game.

Lynch based on scum play and town play and don't use this as a reason to doubt.


But hey out of curiosity what would a lyncher help explain?

Why BB

was

is tunneling 2 so damn hard that it hurts.

it is called pushing my scum read.

so if you are sus of 2, why are you not pursuing that read. <----- I would like an answer to this question

sajin what is your take on cabd? he is tweaking my scumdar in a big way

No, I'm pretty sure this is called tunneling. You've even started lying about this and that to get your agenda along. You lied about the content of the games, and, more recently, you lied about you thinking that I can't do scumhunting as scum. I call that tunneling and not pushing a read.

Also, I think you're wrong about cabd. The most recent post in which he proved that he is paying attention to meta stuff by saying that he'd read a game f and I just finished as town strongly suggests that he's town.

- b

[²]

I get that BB is certain and that nacho is certain or whatever

Nacho isn't certain; Nacho is sheeping mollie. That's by the way the 3rd outright lie. This is confirmable two ways: 1) you can check the thread - I'm pretty sure Nacho explicitly stated that he was sheeping mollie. 2) you can wait for Nacho to come back and confirm that it's the case.

- b

[²]

VOTE: 2

Fery's posts have been degrading more and more.

How so?

- b

[²]

Rach explained things in 378 and you posted in 381. How convenient. You can piss off already. I know that you're scum, so it's only a matter of time before either you get lynched, or I get killed/lynched in which case everyone else BETTER FUCKING LYNCH YOU WHEN THEY SEE MY FLIP.

- b

I don't really see posts like these here. Town B makes lots of things like this.

Maybe you should ISO me then in this game because I'm pretty sure I've been mad more than once in this game.

Anyway, it also doesn't automatically make me town. I'm quite convinced that my temper is null with respect to alignment, and you can check some of my scum games to verify this if you wish.

- b

[²]

finding myself doubting that Cabd is town, regardless of any townslips after his interactions today.

He's town as fuck. What scum motivation do you see in his posts?

- b

[²]

and "and you smell bad", which was the post made my gut wrench.

I'm pretty sure she was imitating her perception of the arguments mollie was using against us and taking a stance with respect to mollies use of condescending nicknames for players.

- b

[²]

I don't mean your temper I mean your hard-pressure.

Alright. How do you suggest I hard pressure TMT?

- b

[²]

Tunnel the shit out of him like you do in other games? Push him for reads? You're the one that knows your hard-ass game best.

Have you even checked when he last posted?

- b

[²]

Anyway, that's besides the point. I don't think there is merit to tunneling or hard pushing him in this game.

- b

[²]

I don't know. Maybe you're right and maybe that's what I should have done and should do. I think part of it is that I'm not particularly motivated in this game. I've tried to force myself to be active, but when it isn't sincere it just doesn't work.

- b

[²]

Here's my take on cabd.

If sven is town, mafia would be staying far away from this entire thing, IMO. Let us whip ourselves into a frenzy while they sit back and pop popcorn.

I really do agree with Svenskt in the weird wording, trying to subtly push the fact he's town while not outright stating it.

But besides that, I really don't see any scum tells at all.

This post is terrible because svenskt's comment was bad whereas cabd was town and TMT trying to capitalize on that by subtly pushing sven while undermining cabd rather than going directly after cabd.

Then later on there is this reads list:

In case I wasn't clear enough, I'm asking player-wise.
You know. Like "who did what so he's suspicious." Kind of stuff.

Ok. Let's go.

²: If it's ok, I'm going to read ² as one person and not two separate people. Same goes for Beast. ² is scum to me because he reads TD as scum with little to no base and seems to be ignoring TD's more towny posts.
Aj The Epic: Null-Scum. I perceive AtE in #945 but that's pretty much it.
Andrius: Null, lack of posts.
BeautyAndTheBeast: Town. Reading well and catching things and no scumreads as of yet.
BROseidon: No reads as of yet.
Cabd: Null-Scum, mainly for not specifying reads in #931.
dntfkingcare: Null, lack of posts.
Ghostlin: After an ISO after Varsoon's read, scummy.
GuyInFreezer: Town. No scumreads. I like you asking questions.
jon_h61: no posts.
Mac: Town for the most part, but look at his #811, #821, and #831. Detailed analysis AJ is scummy, waits for nacho to vote, then says he's "considering" voting as well?!?!?
Metal Sonic: Null (no posts)
orcinus_theoriginal: Town. No scumreads, and acts and reads town.
RachMarie: Agree with Mac's #1010. Seems to be ignoring large portions of the game.
Sajin: Null.
Svenskt Stål: Active lurking, seemingly. Active early on but quieter now. Lingering scumreads from the claim and such.
Nachomamma8: Null. Towny early in game, but I feel a little less so about that.
TiphaineDeath: Town, scummy early in game, but did a 180
TMTOLBTWNTOF: No comment
Varsoon: Null, I'm finding it hard to read him.

P EDIT

Gif- I did not "disappear," I was reading all 42 pages and typing this read post the whole goddamn time.

How is Svenskt Stål "seemingly" active lurking? Did he not explicitly state that he isn't even going to be reading the game?

- b

The long reads list isn't compatible with the otherwise limited amount of content from him and the individual reads seems to be fairly arbitrary.

I think f also commented on some things wrt TMT - I'll have her find them.

- b

[²]

Actually, better question. Why did B get modkilled? I mean there's no link to it so I can read form start but a general idea of where or why would be great?

If we're talking about the game I linked to, I got modkilled subsequent to the game ending for suggesting a signature bet with mollie. It didn't affect the game at all as it happened after it had ended.

- b

[²]

You saying I can't do scumhunting as scum isn't really compatible with all the games in which you talk about how good I am as scum and how careful everyone has to be about me, is it? I can't talk to you when you're tunneling like this, mollie, just as I havn't been able to in previous games that we have played.

- b

where have I talked about you being good as scum?

I haven't

Yes you have. You even said you really had to reconsider how you read me after seing me play as scum on TR. You're so full of shit that I'm seriously considering just ignoring you, mollie.

- b

[²]

finding myself doubting that Cabd is town, regardless of any townslips after his interactions today.

He's town as fuck. What scum motivation do you see in his posts?

- b

some of his recent posts are strange. the suggestion of mollie being a lyncher is a bit fucking ridiculous by every stretch. obviously there are no lynchers but it's kinda a roundabout of trying to discredit mollie kinda like "you're so bad, are you trying to get lynched?" or something similar. I mean it's just a strange way to address mollie.

Why do you think it's scum motivated?

- b

[²]

finding myself doubting that Cabd is town, regardless of any townslips after his interactions today.

He's town as fuck. What scum motivation do you see in his posts?

- b

some of his recent posts are strange. the suggestion of mollie being a lyncher is a bit fucking ridiculous by every stretch. obviously there are no lynchers but it's kinda a roundabout of trying to discredit mollie kinda like "you're so bad, are you trying to get lynched?" or something similar. I mean it's just a strange way to address mollie.

Why do you think it's scum motivated?

- b

Just to clarify: why do you think that scum cabd, but not town cabd, would do that?

- b

[²]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=24180
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23927

Guess you'll have to dig through the posts yourselves.

- b

oh that is the second one? lol. you do realise rach marie is in this game don't you?

I didn't push for your lynch I pushed you for a read, got a town one,

and actively worked with you the rest of the game

.

so in other words, you are lying about me getting you lynched in those games.

gee buldey, I wonder why I think you are scum.

In that case, why were you apologizing postgame? You're blatantly lying now to get your agenda moving along in this game. That is, you're being inherently anti-town. You did not "push me for a read". You didn't "get me lynched" in that second game, but we discussed the fact that you always tunnel me in detail. I'll find the specific post since you're still calling me a liar.

- b

I will be here patiently waiting.

hey cabd, this is what no evidence looks like!

back to buldey...where is the lie?

I don't know if you're actually delusional or if you're deliberately pretending like you didn't read the games I linked. If I could remember which game you said that we ought to be careful about me because after you saw my play on TR you had to reconsider your interpretation of my scum ability entirely I'd link you, but I can't. However, I do recall which TR game it was. It was one with a perfect win as scum (we were three scum players). I'll find it.

- b

[²]

mollie, could you help me out here? What is the game called where I had a perfect scum win with Felice and someone else on TR? Please don't pretend like you don't remember because I

will

find it regardless.

- b

[²]

http://www.talkrational.org/showthread.php?t=54226

I just now realize that you were the mod of that game. What a coincidence? No wonder specifically

that

game is the game where you truely got a glimse of my scum play and admired it.

I could probably work out the dates of that game and subsequent post dates here on this site to find the exact post in which you stated that you had to reevaluate your perception of my scum game because I was much more capable than you expected, but it does seem like a lot of work just to prove that you couldn't possibly think that I'm not capable of doing scumhunting as scum.

- b

[²]

Unvote

Yo. Sup.

101 pages.

I will skip them all.

Who's scum? And who should I be sheeping?

TMT and I can tell you that you shouldn't be sheeping mollie.

- b

[²]

I have decided that "2" is a confusing and difficult name to refer to a player by. From this day on 2 shall be known as Lord SixtyNine.
- ( or by me at least ).

Like

(our name was buldermar's idea)

- f

[²]

I have decided that "2" is a confusing and difficult name to refer to a player by. From this day on 2 shall be known as Lord SixtyNine.
- ( or by me at least ).

Like

(our name was buldermar's idea)

- f

Or lack thereof.

- b

[²]

Unvote

Yo. Sup.

101 pages.

I will skip them all.

Who's scum? And who should I be sheeping?

TMT and I can tell you that you shouldn't be sheeping mollie.

- b

As in TMT = scum
you shouldn't be sheeping mollie.

Not as TMT and I are telling you that bla bla.

- b

[²]

Ugh that game

this.

the wind was pretty much out of my sails when A_S flipped town.

- f

[²]

mollie can you comment on sajin's recent posts on venmar

or if you did could you quote it

I see it.

but 2 is like confscum at this point and I am missing how you guys are missing

that

.

buldermar thought you'd eventually see the nose on your face.

- f

[²]

to the contrary, Mollie. you are.

[²]

I've had Sajin in my town pile, but have the impression that he's never quite caught up with the thread. The last couple of pages reinforces that impression.

-f

[²]

Case against sonic:

1.
Somehow manages to ISO another player with a few posts from a town POV (which means reading deeply not skimming the shit out of it) within a minute. It's doable, but only if you're only looking for stuff that would affect you or a few other people (aka his scum team)

2.
Accepted me as town without really explaining why or questioning it. I'd sure as hell not be sold at me being town that early, I

was

am fucking horrible today.

3.
Stopped really doing... anything once the BnB x 2 x Cabd threesome orgy started. Actually, well before that started.

You are forgetting the fact that he managed to read 30 pages in 15 minutes AND establish 8 reads supposedly based on the content of these 30 pages.

- b

[²]

what I don't like about your recent posts is that they are a bit of a misrep.

I provided some lengthy good content

that you are dismissing. fery of 2 said I smelled funny.

buldey is pursuing an irrelevant point where I say he played well as scum

.

how do the two even compare

No you did not, you provided a bunch of accusations that I refuted.

I'm pursuing a point BECAUSE YOU'RE LYING TO GET YOUR WAGON GOING. Every time I refute one of your accusations, you just make a new one. It's like a fucking paradox. I know you know that you're lying about whether you think I'm capable of doing scumhunting as scum, because you complimented me on my scum game and said you had to reevaluate your own perception of what I was capable subsequent to a game I finished with a perfect win as scum where you were the mod.

- b

[²]

"one minute iso is scummy"

"reading fast is scummy"

fuck off, those are null tells like seriously you should not be reading me worse than null even I would read myself null/town from outside perspective

How about reading 30 pages in 15 minutes? Are you going to simply avoid commenting on that?

- b

[²]

"one minute iso is scummy"

"reading fast is scummy"

Well no I think the point I'm trying to get across (and probably others?) is that saying you're going to ISO someone and then one minute later vote them means you really had no actual interesting in getting a read on them, and that you had already determined they're scumread and put in that BS about "ISOing them" to look like you're a townie genuinely attempting to figure out someone's alignment.

I don't get why you guys are so obsessed with the 1 minut ISO. To me it's much more significant that he pretended to have made 8 reads (7 town and 1 scum) based off of reading 30 pages in 15 minutes. That's virtually impossible.

- b

[²]

buldy, do you think b&b is scum?

In a nutshell I probably would mostly because of mollie, but f is very certain about their alignment and Majiffy doesn't look scummy to me the way he usually does when he's scum (I can provide you with links to several games where I've correctly read him as scum quite quickly if need be). So, all things considered I think they're town.

- b

[²]

So what would be the motivation to lie if b&b is town? You're saying mollie is lying to push her agenda, what agenda is that is she's town?

Your guess is as good as mine? If she's convinced that we're scum then she may not care what road she's taking to get us lynched. The other possibility is some sort of personal vendetta. All I know is that she's lying, as I've already pointed out, and that she's being inherently anti-town in doing so.

- b

[²]

The Rev,

if were were scum, I guarantee we'd have had our fake claim ducks in a row not long after seeing our role pm.

I have a different view of what is going on between b and mollie, as opposed to what's going on between her and me. She and I have often disagreed about the specifics of past games. Memories are based on PoVs and what sticks with a player is very dependent on that PoV.

- f

[²]

All I know is that she's lying, as I've already pointed out, and that she's being inherently anti-town in doing so.

The from your town pov she's scum. I don't know if she's lying or not, what I do know is that if someone was pushing for my mislynch by lying, I would not consider that person town, because there is no town motivation for lying to push lynches.

vote - 2

That's L-2

No, from my town POV she's town. I've explained several times why being anti-town is not the same as being scummy, but you simply don't seem to understand this. Why don't you ask some of the other experienced players if you don't trust me? There

is

a town motivation for it. She thinks we're scum and she's willing to do whatever it takes to get us lynched. She differs from other players in that regard. I've pointed this out several times as well - and not only in this game. Once she decides on someone being scum, she's going into tunnel mode and she's going to interpret everything scummy and (as evident by this game) she's also willing to lie to get her wagon moving.

What you would or not would consider that person is entirely up to you, but I think you're making a mistake in asserting that anti-town behavior is automatically scummy behavior.

- b

[²]

I haven't lied about anything.

I think you are a good scum player

I really don't see the lie what I see is you twisting my words into some dumbass fucking convoluted narrative.

You lied about, at the very least:
1) Nacho thinking we're scum when he is in fact just sheeping you.
2) You not having mislynched me before because of your excesssive tunneling.
3) You thinking that I can't simulate scumhunting as scum.
4) You claiming to not have lied about anything.

That's four lies so far.
1) Will be proven once Nacho gets back.
2) Is proven by the links I've provided.
3) Can be proven if I find the specific post - for now you'll have to do with the game subsequent to which you made the comment.
4) Is proven by at least 1 of 1-3 being proven.

- b

[²]

And 2 has gone quiet. Discussing fakeclaim with f is it?

Close but no cigar.

- b

[²]

i need to do a steely dan mafia

please do this.

/pre-in

- f

[²]

What you would or not would consider that person is entirely up to you, but I think you're making a mistake in asserting that anti-town behavior is automatically scummy behavior.

Anti-town behaviour is not inherently scummy. Lying to push a mislynch is. I find it incredible that you can accuse mollie of lying to push for your lynch, yet still sit there and insist she's town. Maybe if you both flip town, I'll learn from that. But right now I find it very hard to believe that both of you are town. And since I'm reading b&b as strong town, that kinda narrows down my options here.

No, lying to push a mislynch is anti-town behavior but not necessarily scummy behavior. In fact in some circumstances it may not even be anti-town behavior.

I don't accuse her of lying. I

proved

that she's lying. You can find it as incredible as you want to. The fact that she's lying does not mean she's automatically scum. Why are you even talking to me when you're just going to go by your own hypothesis of lying being scummy anyway?

- b

[²]

mollie is town

end of discussion afaiac.

- f

[²]

Here's why 2 doesn't want to push mollie's "lying" as a scum tell... they do want to go 1v1 against someone who is considered town by most.

I don't go 1v1 against a town read.

I'll be mostly afk for the next 3 or so hours. May be able to follow by phone for part of that time. I've let b know, but I think he's gone inactive for now.

If you want a claim from us then it's up to you guys to exercise some self restraint if you put us at L-1 today.

Mollie you should have this figured out by now.

- f

[²]

Why are you even talking to me when you're just going to go by your own hypothesis of lying being scummy anyway?

I'm sorry, is trying to interact with someone in order to attempt to determine that person's alignment not cool? Why are you asking me why I'm talking to you? I think you're scum, this tiff with mollie reinforces that read, I'm interacting with you now to see if you come across as town, seeing as we have a few days left and you're at L-2. You are failing to convince me my vote is in the wrong place. You should know why I'm talking to you. And I really think that you should be concerned about mollie's alignment if you are so convinced she is lying to push for your mislynch. Maybe I'm wrong there, but you telling me I'm wrong won't convince me, two town flips will convince me, and that isn't happening today.

This is not at all the impression I've gotten from this conversation. Briefly speaking, you asked me why I thought mollie is town when I simultaneously claim that she's lying. I told you that lying isn't a scumtell. You told me that lying is scummy. I told you that lying is anti-town, but not necessarily scummy. You told me again that lying is scummy. I told you that lying isn't even always anti-town and certainly not necessarily scummy. Then you repeat yourself again and I ask why you are bothering talking to me when you're just going by your own hypothesis of lying being scummy anyway.

So, to answer your questions:

I don't get the impression that you're trying to interact with me in an attempt to determine my alignment; I think you've convinced yourself a long time ago that we're scum and you seem to be grasping onto anything you can to reassure yourself. For instance, you're currently asserting that we're scummy because I think mollie is town despite lying. How the hell is thinking mollie is town despite lying even scum-motivated in the first place? I find your whole argument quite absurd.

I am asking you why you are talking to me because it seems rather extraneous when taking into consideration the content of our conversation. It seems that you have made up your mind a long time ago and I sincerely think you're quite stuck in confirmation bias land, asserting that anything I do is scummy - much like mollie is.

I may be failing to convince you that your vote is in the wrong place, but that does not necessarily mean that I am to blame for that. For instance, you should be looking at things more skeptically instead of blindly sheeping mollie. I don't think you're actually trying to create new content with the conversation that you instigated, I think you had made up your mind that me thinking mollie is town while claiming that she's lying is scummy and you just wanted to point this out.

I think I understand by now that you think I should be concerned with mollie's alignment because she's lying, but I'm not. I think I also made it fairly clear by now why I'm not concerned with mollie's alignment. On the contrary, I don't think you made it clear why you think me not being concerned with mollie's alignment is scum-motivated (aside from just asserting that because this is what you personally think, it must also apply to others).

I think you sum it up quite neatly when you state that only two town flips are going to convince you; if that's the case there really isn't a purpose of our conversation.

- b

[²]

Here's why 2 doesn't want to push mollie's "lying" as a scum tell... they do want to go 1v1 against someone who is considered town by most.

Here is why we don't want to push mollie's lying as a scum tell: because

IT'S NOT A FUCKING SCUMTELL

. Try to get that into your head. Go check mollie's scum games. Does she blatantly lie about stuff that can easily be disconfirmed? NO, SHE DOES NOT. If it's alignment indicative at all it's probably more likely to come from town-mollie than scum-mollie, but that's all besides the point: the slot is town to us and if you want to lynch us for thinking so, that's your call.

- b

[²]

I don't understand this need to get angry in mafia games. It's either feigned anger to appear town, or if you're actually angry, you take shit too seriously. There's a few people here who need to chill.

You tell me my mind is made up. It is not, or at least it wasn't before this exchange. I already stated that I prefer to lynch AJ over you because I feel you are a greater loss to town if it's a mislynch.

I haven't said lying is a scum tell. I said lying to push a mislynch is a scum tell. The fact that you have accepted mollie as town, regardless of what I consider clear scum motivation, is alarming. In your shoes, if I really felt mollie was lying, I would reassess my town read on her with the utmost urgency. You seem to be set on mollie being town, despite your claims she's lying. This, to me, is incredibly scummy. You're not being flexible, you are rigid.

I think you sum it up quite neatly when you state that only two town flips are going to convince you; if that's the case there really isn't a purpose of our conversation.

Of course there's a point to this conversation. It was entirely possible that you could convince me mollie is indeed deliberately lying to push your mislynch, which in turn would have me reassess my town read of her. I would expect maybe you would do the same. But you're digging your feet in, refusing to back down from your town read, and suggesting my mind was made up long ago. It wasn't, if my mind was made up long ago, why did I try to get some momentum into the MS counter-wagon?

I'm happy with my vote.

Alright, I'll try to remain calm, but it's rather frustrating spending time explaining something when it's just being ignored and (at least by my impression) you're continually repeating yourself.

I told you that it was my impression that your mind was made up. If you're telling me that isn't the case then I don't understand why you insist that mollie lying is scummy, as I've actually put some effort into trying to explain why it's not.

You did state before that you prefer to lynch AJ over us, but you also stated before that you prefer lynching us, and your vote is currently on us.

I still disagree that lying to push a mislynch is always a scumtell. It's a scumtell when you get caught lying in something that otherwise wouldn't be easily confirmable, but when mollie is just blatantly lying about things that can easily be disconfirmed, I don't see it as scummy. The fact that I have accepted mollie as town may be alarming to you; there really isn't much I can do about that, because I

have

accepted their slot as town. You have said what you would do in my shoes several times, but please at least consider the possibility that what town-you would do in my shoes does not necessarily equal what town-me does in my shoes. We clearly think differently about a lot of things and this is just one of many examples. I'm set on mollie being town because I'm absolutely certain that by now I would have picked up on something scummy from either Majiffy or mollie. Have you checked how quickly I've figured out Majiffy being scum in other games? I don't even recall the last time he was scum and I didn't figure it out right away on day 1. I'm not being flexible on this because I really have no reason to think that Majiffy suddently became well-capable of tricking me on such a huge scale. In addition to this, f is very, very good at reading mollie and she's saying that mollie without a doubt is town.

What is the point of this conversation, really? I don't see it, and I'm trying me best to be open-minded right now. When Nacho comes back, you'll find that he'll confirm that he was sheeping mollie on her read. If you read the links to previous games you'll find that mollie indeed was responsible for my mislynch because of excessive tunneling. If you care enough to read through her previous posts on this site you'll find that she did indeed state that my scum game is incredible good and that she had to reevaluate her perception of what she thinks I'm capable of (i.e., I'm well capable of simulating scumhunting as town, contrary to what she stated). If you don't do any of this it will just remain my word versus hers, so I encourage you to dig into this and draw your own conclusion. To me, mollie is beyond any reasonable doubt deliberately lying to push my mislynch (which she beyond any reasonable doubt thinks is actually the correct lynch). You don't need to reconsider your town read on her because of this, as you seem to insinuate. We disagree on this, but I don't see what kind of scum-motivation there would be for me to deliberately disagree with you rather than just faking being suspicious of her.

If there is anything else you want my opinion on, let me know, but I still don't see the purpose of continuing this conversation. I hope you'll reconsider your vote, ofc, but I'm not going to go out of my way to make you do so, and I can't see mollie being scum despite her lying.

- b

[²]

but I don't see what kind of scum-motivation there would be for me to deliberately disagree with you rather than just faking being suspicious of her.

I already stated what I think your scum motivation is for maintaining a town read on her... if you push this as a scumtell, then you run the risk of 1v1 vs a universal townread. Sure, what rev town does and what buldy town does are two different things, but I can't help be alarmed by your rigid townread on someone you openly accuse of deliberately lying to push your lynch.

I'm going out now, it's friday night etc, I'll reassess tomorrow when I'm sober. I hope in the meantime we have orc and/or nacho back involved.

Alright, have a nice one!

- b

[²]

coming from a town mindset*

agree.

- f

[²]

oh god the shouty font.

- f