Suffer not the witch to live!
Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!
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Steam-Powered Shovel Goon
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Elscouta called Cobalt his scum-buddy, SpyreX.
Why don't you hop on the SensFan-wagon, by the bye? I heard a rumour they were going to give away free marshmallow peeps to everyone on the wagon.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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What? Scummy actions are exactly those scum are more likely to do. Do you mean you think scum are more likely to do it, but you don't have any data to back it up?J-scope wrote:No evidence to suggest scum are more likely to do it though, it's just one of those things I find scummy.
SpyreX, pushing a random wagon is fun. Wagons based on crappy reasoning, however, are not.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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As far as I can tell, all that's happened so far is that xvart and Drippereth (naturally) have things which are wrong and misguided, which is pretty meaningless when it comes to determining alignments. The most relevant thing I've seen so far is Starbuck asking Iecerint to drop it three times in a row.Budja wrote:Dislike SPS still sticking to Sens wagon without further comment on events.
I feel like wagonning, but all the wagons are dumb.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Agree. Not. No (scum generally better off just killing cop).Budja wrote:xvart seems to compulsively misrep/generalise. Agree/disagree? Scummy or not?
Jack made a random cop breadcrumb comment and and produces little content. I found that scummy. Do you agree?
CyberBob, I believe kmd was mocking this comment of xvart:xvart wrote:Knowing my alignment and the target I put on myself I felt/feel that there are probably some scum on my wagon right now, so I started pushing back.
Really? You have problems with one bullet point, so it's complete bull? You do admit that you're looking at only that part, but why do you feel the need to call it complete bull? Seems uncalled for.Iecerint wrote:Complete bull from Cyberbob. I'm sort of focusing in on the part about me, but that part is crap.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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No. In fact, I'm getting town vibes from his posts so far.Jack wrote:You guys don't find cyberbob scummy at all?
Jack, SpyreX, stop with the pointless posts. That's what General Discussion is for.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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You shouldn't reward craplogic. I mean, "Socrates is mortal, scum are mortal, thus Socrates is scum" is reasoning, but it's definitely worse than no reasoning.MehPlusRawr wrote:The second part of this isn't okay. Are you saying that wagons with no reasoning are better than wagons with bad reasoning? I'd say that any reasoning is better than none. Plus, more pushing a pointless wagon.
And yes, I'm wagonning. I stay in that phase longer than most people as I'm a big fan of bandwagonning. Do you need examples of me acting this way when town?
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Lack of asking for a claim is a dead giveaway, nice try though, Jack.
Early-game bandwagonning is pro-town, certainly in big games. But you are right that I haven't done enough scumhunting; I just don't have a feel for this game. There's too much discussion about inconsequential tidbits.MehPlusRawr wrote:Wagoning may not be a scumtell, but pushing a pointless wagon is anti-town, and wagoning instead of scumhunting is anti-town. :XThe great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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If you're playing in a way you would not describe as pro-town, you're doing something wrong.
I'm not saying I'm more likely to be town here, if that's what you're thinking. I'm taking a stance on what's good early-game play. Obviously my early-game play is based on my beliefs regarding what's good early-game play.
Iecerint, was I not allowed to react to Jack's fake daykill?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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SocioPath, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Don't you agree that people in a way that they feel benefits the town?
Iecerint, if we're not supposed to react to it, then why would scum need to alert their buddies? And I wouldn't have posted that if CB hadn't reacted first since I am aware that his reaction is most important.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I'm going to give xofelf a chance to respond first, but I'll probably be voting for her unless she can explain things.
Elmocrates, lying would definitely be bad play from xofelfscum, but I really can't imagine town making that comment. Scum, under pressure to come up with something after Sens called her out for her previous post, I can imagine making that play.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Because calling someone your scum-buddy in the RVS is a null tell.J-Scope wrote:@SPS: Why did you think the Els wagon was dumb?
You're right: if Sens is making it all up, then obviously town make that comment. I mostly meant that I can't imagine town lying about something like that.Elmocrates wrote:
Assuming Sens is scum & lying, why?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Elmocrates, lying would definitely be bad play from xofelfscum, but I really can't imagine town making that comment.
xofelf's latest post is enough to makeunvote, vote: xofelf.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I think this type of thing often is, but SensFan is taking a very strong stance here and I'm quite willing to believe him. I think xofelfscum was hoping we'd just chalk it up to personal disagreement and leave it at that.Budja wrote:I really dislike this implication that one of Sens/xofelf is scum because of the lying thing. A lot of this could be down to subjective views/misremembering and the taboo personal issues.
Jack, stop being useless.
Am I just being bandwagonned for playing my normal game here or does anyone have a real argument against me?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I don't particularly expect to be able to convince other people of the pro-townness of my playstyle. Even if I could, it would distract the town from more important matters. (This is not a good forum for theory debates.)J-Scope wrote:@Steam-Powered Shovel
Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Do you need examples of me acting this way when town?
Why do you feel the need to try and defend your actions through meta? If you think you're playing in a way that's pro-town, wouldn't you have a problem with people not liking your playstyle? Or at the least, not have a problem with how other people view your playstyle?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Am I just being bandwagonned for playing my normal game here or does anyone have a real argument against me?
And it doesn't really matter how people view my playstyle as long as, knowing it is my playstyle, town lets me be. Obviously, if people want to lynch me Day 1 over my playstyle, I have a problem with how they view my playstyle.
The first quote was in response to MehPlusRawr's "case" on me. He seemed to think that my bandwagonning was indicative of alignment. I figured examples might be required to show him the error of his ways.J-Scope wrote:Scum might defend using meta because they think they are playing to their town meta. So those two quotes look like a questionable defense, if that was their intention.
The focus of the second question was on the second part. I wanted to know whether there were any arguments against me that I might have missed.
Both. Jack seems to be trying to aggravate the town a little; I don't like it.J-Scope wrote:
Was this a bandwagon vote, or a vote because you thought he was scum? Or both?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:unvote, vote: Jack, he seems to be acting deliberately unhelpful.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I don't think xofelf was going to claim before the deadline anyway. I have no problem with kmd's decision.
Drippereth, I find that putting forth arguments tends to help getting the lynches you want. You might want to consider that next time.
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Is it really that weird that I'm frustrated by the fact that a significant number of people are calling for a lynch without having any way of defending myself? I offered to give examples of town play for them to compare me to, but no one was interested. (And my one completed game on this account is only marginally relevant; games with 7 players are very different from games with 25.)
If I were scum and the town caught me based on gut reads, I could live with that; that's the town's job. Getting lynched as town I find far more frustrating.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Okay, this is mucho confusing.
Ooba, are you sure you actually got a result? Specifically, is it possible you were just roleblocked?
Also, I googled Belog and couldn't find anything. Are you sure you spelled that right?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Well, it mentioning Farside specificially (as you stated earlier) makes it pretty clear you weren't redirected.ooba wrote:
How can I answer if I was redirected?Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:Hmmm. Is it possible either of you got redirected, ooba and FFFF?
There was nothing else in my night result if that's what you're driving at
FFFF is just making stuff up now. Why would Beleg have the Silmaril anyway?
(Also, if FFFF could track J-Scope to Farside, then ooba should've been able to detect it too. No group ability shenanigans.)
Unvote, vote: FFFFThe great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I suspect understanding his motivation will be easier after he's dead (and destroyed if he is an elf) since that'll tell us about his powers. It's clear he's scum anyway.
Papa Zito, no Silmaril-fishing. If he does hold the Silmaril, then he could still easily be scum.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Oh DGB/Person I don't know but I assume is similar to DGB, you always have to disagree, don't you?
Do you really find it plausible that FFFF would, after ooba's claim proved him wrong, just lie more instead of coming clean despite still not having a good reason to suspect J-Scope (unless you count no one targetting him at night for some reason)? FFFF's second and third claim are clearly intended to be consistent with what ooba claimed.
Iecerint, in the story Beren manages to steal one of the silmarils from Melkor, so I would assume that we are dealing with just one silmaril.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Vote: Jack
Destroy: FFFF
Going to ISO Nachomamma and J-Scope to see who I'd rather see revived.
I have no problem with Iecerint's argument. It's very weak, but he seems aware of that.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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That's the kind of punchline you should give away, Iece, since not voting for J-Scope is only meaningful if the non-voter is aware of J-Scope's soft claim. And with all that's happened, it's not that weird that people forgot about it.
Revive: J-ScopeThe great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Farside, the first comment about budja refers to Drip thinking the FFFF-wagon was scum-laden. Have you read all of Day 2 yet?
SP's "metatell" carries no weight in my books, although SP seems genuine in his support of it.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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God, you're naïve (alternatively: scum).kmd wrote:Zito is town because he PM'd Plum to complain about his reads. He wouldn't do it as scum and I doubt he'd lie about it expecting someone to see it as a towntell. So Zito is confirmed town.
Exactly one?SpyreX wrote:Additionally, one of (Jack / Budja / Icerint) is scum.
I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic.SpyreX wrote:Additonally, after thinking about the pieces of information we've been given and this setup as a whole: there is probably only one scumgroup that has two kills.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Setup speculation =/= IIoA. And IIoA is a made-up tell anyway.MehPlusRawr wrote:
Looks like IIOA...Steam-Powered Shovel wrote: I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic.
If the case against you is bandwagonning and you're known for bandwagonning, then why wouldn't you bring up your meta? That I don't want to be lynched over my playstyle doesn't say anything about my alignment,Cyberbob wrote:The worst thing on there is the self-metaing (which to be fair is actually pretty bad)
Iecerint did bring up the daykillreactionthing later (so the case was more than just bandwagonning), but that was stupid then and is stupid now. (The daykill trick is so damn old. And if the very act of reacting is considered scummy, then why would I, if scum, need to warn my scumbuddies? They could just, *gasp*, not react to it if they were unsure.)The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Okay. Imagine if you will a scum who's, get this, trying to look pro-town. So he figures he could back up his claim of having trouble with reads by referencing this concrete (but uncorfirmable) thing he did. I'll grant you that "he actually did it"-explanation is, in general, more parsimonious, but on the other hand I find it weird that he would complain to the mod about his reads.Kmd4390 wrote:
Give me a scenario where that post comes from scum.Steam-Powered Shovel wrote:
God, you're naïve (alternatively: scum).kmd wrote:Zito is town because he PM'd Plum to complain about his reads. He wouldn't do it as scum and I doubt he'd lie about it expecting someone to see it as a towntell. So Zito is confirmed town.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Sorry for my lack of posting. Should get a good solid post in tomorrow (you can hold me to this).
Iecerint's giving me good vibes lately.
I'm guessing the secret scum tell is just misguided nonsense.
Still happy with my Jackvote.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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It was a serious question. I wanted to know if I had missed anything. And I don't have a clue what you're on about with this heat business. (I have a healthy body temperature of 37 Celsius if that's what you're after.)SpyreX wrote:This little quip really stood out on the re-read.
Why? Because it drips the stink of "I've been caught but I dont think I've done anything to get caught" AND there's no heat.
There hasn't ever been any heat.
Because you'll have to reveal it eventually. I think you think you've found something worth mentioning. This secret scum tell business would just be terrible play otherwise. It wasn't an automatic assumption; I gave it some thought and came to this conclusion.SpyreX wrote:Why?
Why am I not scum? Why is it automatically assumed that I'm just misguided versus scum machinations?
I am working on it; I'm just a slow starter.Papa Zito wrote:It's certainly damn true that SPS isn't doing anything.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Are you saying I should have been more OMGUSy?SpyreX wrote:Yes there should be some heat. Or anything besides "is this just because I'm playing how I play?"
It was a Day 1 wagon. And I didn't (and still don't)really have a feel for the game, so I can't say I haven't done anything wrong; I certainly haven't been a paragon of townness.SpyreX wrote:If town and you're getting a wagon on you you damn well should be able to analyze it. DOUBLY so if you legitimately think you've done no wrong.
Then I guess I don't your preconceptions of how people play the game. Could not care less.SpyreX wrote:And the result should never be just a shrug of the shoulders.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I was getting wagonned because I was bandwagonning, which is my standard play. The paragon comment was meant to explain that I wasn't thinking "Why are people wagonning me? I haven't done anything wrong." since I was well aware that I hadn't contributed enough content. Did you bother to read your own quote here and the sentences preceding this one in my answer? The only way the accusation you're making here makes any sort of sense is if you just grabbed that one sentence out of context.SpyreX wrote:So, you say you haven't been "the paragon of towniness" but questioned getting wagoned for your standard play?
I was still trying to figure out what the hell the heat business about; that's why I asked the question. It's not uncommon for people to feel suspicious of me, I didn't see anything particularly scummy in the Day 1 wagon.SpyreX wrote:(and questioning the motives and votes on yourself isn't OMGUS and if someone said such welp you've done your job because thats a scumbolina style answer)
Do you only read every second sentence of my posts? I couldn't care less about your preconceptions of how someone should play.SpyreX wrote:And if you've couldn't care less about playing the game then I can't care less about watching you dangle.
If you ignore enough sentences of mine, then yes, apparently we do.SpyreX wrote:So, we're in agreement!
You're being ridiculous. The less words you use, the less information you can convey.SpyreX wrote:Xvart:
SPS: Scum, Town.
I want one simple word.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I just ISOed you and all I can find is this exchange:SocioPath wrote:I've stated my reasons, and they are still valid.
Shovel: Early-game bandwagonning is pro-town, certainly in big games.
Path: Calling your own actions pro-town is never pro-town.
Shovel: If you're playing in a way you would not describe as pro-town, you're doing something wrong.
Path: That is a bit of a false dilemma. Every action a person takes could be described as pro-town, if the end result is helping them catching scum. Vote: Shovel
Shovel: SocioPath, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Path: The Ends Justify The Means.
Then I seem to have forgotten about it, which is a shame, since it just boils down to a specious reading of one of my statements. You suggest that I consider actions which don't immediately benefit the town as not pro-town even though nothing in my post suggests that. My statement is not in any way inconsistent with "the end justifies the means". In fact, the opposite is true since bandwagonning is all about the end justifying the means.
If you have other reasons for suspecting me, then you haven't mentioned them.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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The elswagon was dumb and yes, the Senswagon wasn't really based on nothing.SpyreX wrote:Actually, at least from me early on it wasn't because you were "bandwagoning". It was because you were actively calling for the Sens wagon for ??? and calling the els wagon "dumb".
To some extent, sure. Forcing him to use one word when it was already clear from his post that his position wouldn't fit neatly into either box is just being ridiculous though.SpyreX wrote:Succintness is pro-town.
I thought his stance was pretty clear.SpyreX wrote:Especially in regards to someone who really seems to be playing doublespeak in regards to this wagon.
Claim:I am Mandos of the race of Valar. I'm a Governor whose power is limited to the Revive/Destroy votes.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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If I want to prevent a Revive or Destroy from taking place, I have to send a PM to Miriel prior to the Day ending.
You could ask the same question about a regular governor. It's just an ability mods hand out.ckd wrote:how is that a protown ability?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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I can't prevent both, but I can do it each day.
And I assume that if Beren returning to life is in the game, it'll be part of Beren's role, not mine. (Possibly Beren's Silmaril ability.)The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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It's only too powerful for scum. Me using the ability will in pretty much all cases be detrimental to the town.
I assume the reason my power is unlimited is that it makes more sense thematically. The Halls of Mandos are mine, why would I only be able to prevent someone from leaving once?
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Name me a scum character who would hold such a power. Sauron? Melkor? Carcharoth? Curufin?Jack wrote:Basically there's almost no way that the mod didn't give the scum some power over the revive/destroy votes in this setup. Governor is guaranteed to be a scum role.
So essentially you think the Mod put in a mechanism and then gave scum a power to mostly nullify the mechanism? On top of that, the Mod also gave that power to one person to make the game extra swingy.SpyreX wrote:ACTUALLY, considering how realistically the revive mechanic could make it really hard for scum to win I'm not swayed by the too powerful for scum argument one bit.
We had 4 kills last Night, SpyreX, reviving is not that spectacular in the face of that many kills. And there's a delayed reveal to compensate.
Besides, if I were scum, I'd have just used my powers for evil. Blocking 2 revives would be more useful than a credible fake claim. (Or just prevent the reveals to cause apathy.)
I've read the Silmarillion and the Feanor-storyline is a big part of it. Being familiar with the flavour is not a scum tell.Iecerint wrote:I guess they could be Sons of Feanor together (SPS mentioned them offhand earlier almost out of nowhere IIRC, which could possibly indicate inside knowledge)
I already got suspicion on me Day 1, so why would I risk waiting as scum?SpyreX wrote:Its value increases dramatically as the game progresses and holding it makes it a factor that can't be accounted for.The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Steam-Powered Shovel Goon
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You could ask the same question about regular Governors. It makes a lot of thematic sense for Mandos to have this type of power though.Farside wrote:Why would there be a governor to stop players from reviving or destroying someone. The majority of the votes are town.
I merely prevent the Revive/Destroy action from taking place. They stay in the Halls.Farside wrote:SPS: If you stopped someone from being destroyed would they sit in the Halls? Same question about stopping someone from being revived. Or are they dead for good if you stop it?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.-
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Steam-Powered Shovel Goon
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I'm fine with the Kinslayer QT being released.
Re: balance. I think the Revive-thing wouldn't have been nearly as harsh on scum if the Kinslayermafia had gotten more than 1 kill in. (That Night 2 failure really was a shame. Cobalt would've made the kill if we had sent in proper choices.) The set-up probably was flawed but I think bad luck played a big part in how screwed up it turned out.
The wiki article you linked has a nice short synopsis. Combined with my general knowledge of the themes of the Silmarillion I definitely would've made this connection regardless of my alignment. In hindsight, it was still probably a mistake; it might be a good Townshovel impression, but people don't know me well enough to determine that.Plum wrote:"I tend to disagree. Thematically, I'd expect a Morgoth-Sauron-Werewolves side and a Feanor's sons side (Curufin and Celegorm play a significant role in the story.) It wouldn't be the same without either. And having elfscum would help balance the revive-mechanic." (Steam-Powered Shovel)
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Now was this the best time to do this? It will certainly get speculation started, but probably the exact sort of speculation that SPS doesn't want - speculation as to how he came up with this. The only way to get out of it is to prove he knows the source material cold (or nearly so) or use the Finrod sadfeclaim. This is not something which is ordinarily beneficial to say when no one has said anything about this or indeed is even considering who among the Elves may be scum at all, and less so when under mderate suspicion.
SpyreX, can you tell me your "secret scum tell" now?The great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that he eats not only the raspberry-laden foe but also the raspberries.
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