Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Some theory about this game:
The best use of a teleport is obvious. We get the scum into the other universe.
The best use of a pull is slightly less obvious. If we go into night at a time not exactly the same as the other universe, then if their teleporter is confident that ours will pull him - and that he wants to be pulled - their teleporter can claim. The next day, we have an extra clear.
If their teleporter isn't confident of this, he won't claim, and all we can do is get their most townie/useful looking player over here.
That first use of a pull is easily the strongest of all of those - it gets us a confirmed inno for a day (and so also forces the scum's hand the next night). It also becomes much more powerful later in the game, when a clear or three matters a lot more.
So, I suggest we (ie the town teleporter) adopt a strategy of Teleport, Teleport, Pull, Pull. If the scum don't manage to kill the teleporter on night 3, and our town is a friendly enough place for the other teleporter to want to be here (and clear), we will have clears on days 4 and 5, which could be very important. If this isn't the case, we lose very little.
This may look like it screws over the other town, but actually it doesn't - we can both implement this strategy. There are two important times to have teleporters in this strategy: at night, and when the other town is going into night. If our nights don't overlap, both towns will have teleporters at both these times.
There are some unknowns here, obviously; scum may kill a teleporter, teleport someone one way or the other, we may or may not lynch scum, etc. But AFAIC, this strategy has the potential to do us a lot of good, and won't do us any harm.
I don't think there's a good argument for guiding the teleports.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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mykonian's proposed strategy is very antitown.
If the other town teleports people over here, and we only teleport people back reactively, we're going to end up with more scum/scummy players than them, and we are going to lose.
Pulling confirmed innos from the other universe gives us confirmed innos.
So, unilaterally saying we aren't going to use the mechanic is going to screw us over. Even if we got the other town to agree not to teleport, they wouldn't have any incentive not to break the deal. Even if we trusted them not to teleport as well, both towns are losing the confirmed innos that pulling gives us.
As for "the mod thinks the mechanic will hurt us", I think that the average game's PRs make the game easier for the town than a mountainous setup.
I totally agree that scumhunting is the way to win the game. I think that the best way we can exploit the mechanic is to ignore it during the day (at least for now). For our teleportation strategy, I've already given my thoughts. On teleporting (as opposed to pulling) nights, the teleporter may well often want to send back whoever the OU sent us.
vote: FlareonageandFoS: Plumfor buddying with an entire universe.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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I am fighting scum, entirely in this universe. My vote was for Plum, who I feel was buddying with this universe, by trying to foster a communal hatred of the other universe.mykonian wrote:Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way. But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?
For the start of the game, could everybody answer this question:
what are your scumtells, when you are scum?
I agree that things might get confusing if too many players switch universe.
If, right now, I had the option to completely eliminate all teleporting mechanics, I'd find that a very hard decision. There's a balance between the benefits we get (largely, pulling over confirmed innos) and the confusion that may result. I think I'd probaly lean towards keeping the teleporting, actually. But in practise, we don't have that option. Our teleporter isalwaysgoing to claim if the other universe is more desirable and they are going into a pulling night - otherwise he violates "play to win". We are playing to win, in this town. We cannot let the other town screw us over by having one of their scummy players here at all times.
As for my scumtells (completed games only):
Internally, I worry like fuck about nearly every post I write. I imagine, and often believe, that in this post I'm dropping some massive cast-iron scumtell, and will be lynched immediately. Externally, I think (hope, pray) that it's rather more subtle. As scum, I put more emphasis on cold hard logic, and less on gut feeling. I tend to think about pairings more. On the one occasion I've actually had a scumpartner, I bussed him hugely (but this, I think, was largely due to circumstance).
In many games as town, I try to achieve a state of stream-of-conciousness posting, in which I am totally transparent on whatever subject I am adressing, and obviously so - the idea is that I express natural modes of thought better than can be faked. When I feel I have done this well, people tend to have town reads on me. This obvious honesty is something I have not yet been able to fake as scum (although I don't manage this in anywhere near all my town games).
This is particularly easy early on, when there is little information to analyse, and artificial thoughts are harder to construct. In the vast majority (I suspect all) of my last 7 or so games I played from the start, at least one person has expressed a town read on me within 7 or so pages. Since I haven't started a game as scum, I can't say whether this will be true then, but I doubt it.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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To the Other Universe
It seems you are thinking of lynching quickly in order to teleport scummy people over here.
Make no mistake: we are not idiots..
On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken. But we can and do see your day conversations. Any move to systematically lynch quicker than us will inevitably lead to both universes lynching quicker, and therefore worse. You will not just screw us over, you will screw yourselves over. If you end up one night ahead of us, will you have gained as much as if you spent twice the time over your days?
And yeah,unvote, vote: Gayle. For reasons, see the excellent post 92.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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For now, the odds are heavily (~75%, I'd guess) in favour of me dying/living in this universe (particulary as I don't intend to be teleported for being scummy).Raskol wrote:
I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.Fishythefish wrote:On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.
Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.
So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.
Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.
A town teleporter that gets pulledwill be confirmed innocent from then on, wherever they are. Sure, they might get pulled back (though it's unlikely). But they are going to have a definite advantage.
If both towns do well, hurrah. But all I'm interested in is winning. And if that means going to the other universe, and I can do that, then I'm gone.
If we were in a situation where the best tactic was cooperation with the other universe, then we could do that. But have you actually read and understood Kai's strategy and mine? In the case that our universe is a good place to be, mine is superior (we get a clear for a day). In the opposite case, no teleporter in their right mind is going to claim to come over here.
@pops: as I understand, time of hammer is what matters. In the current post-submitting climate, is anyone going to be able to coordinate this to the minute?
@mod:What are the conditions for the two towns to have gone into night at the same town?-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Thank you, that answers the question I intended to ask.zorastermod wrote:@mod: What are the conditions for the two towns to have gone into night at the same town?I presume you mean at the same time. In order for two towns to enter night at the same time, they must end the day (either by deadline, hammer, or potentially mafia teleportation causing lynch) at the precise minute as recorded by Mafiascum.
In this event, where there are conflicting actions in a simultaneous night, it will be decided by order of action (see rules) first, and coin flip (random.org) second.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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I don't think we need disagree.Raskol wrote:No matter who you are or how you play, you can't possibly know that you will remain here. So the best bet for every townie is to try and make sure that both universes are doing the best they can. And a game where we all try to fuck over the other town by sending them our garbage is not the way to do that. It ends up helping neither town---we screw them, they screw us, we both end up getting screwed. Zero sum game, no winners.
The strategy I propose helps our town if we implement it unilaterally. It also helps both towns if we both implement it. If you like, it's the total opposite of the Prisoner's Dilemma - the rational choice for both towns also benefits both of us.
Apart from direct responses to questions, this is the last post I'm going to make about the mechanics of this game for a long time, or I'll get hooked on them, and they aren't the way to win. I strongly advise the town teleporter to understand and follow the strategy in post 62.
Incidentally, Kai just agreed that my strategy is better than his.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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What Kairyuu just said over there:
I agree with this.Kairyuu wrote:Well fuck. That kinda makes any plan we've made so far rather unfeasible without modification.
@all (Both towns, so someone please quote): If we decide to go with fishy's plan, 5th Day will probably be the most important Day to have the confirmed townie, so I propose a P:T:T sequence for both towns. It means we essentially waste our first pull on the first Night so as to not narrow it down by much, but in all likelyhood D5 will be endgame or close to it, so a pull at that point may mean the difference between winning and losing (also, waiting any longer to use the first pull and we might not even get to USE our second).
The key points of this modified plan:
1. Nights must NOT be synchronised. They should be out by however long it takes for everyone to see a post (24 hours at least?).
2. Town teleporters must claim when the other town is going into night 1. They will be confirmed (if short-lived) town in the other universe, and they will be in a better position.
3. Everyone wins - both towns will have a confirmed inno on day 5.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Aaaah! I didn't notice that if our teleporter is pulled, we don't get a teleporter that night. Is that new?
*Zoraster Comment: it was new as of just before the game, so if you had read all the rules when you signed up, it had changed after that.*
*Reads all the rules again, very slowly and carefully*
I think that, given the rules, any strategy is currently of marginal benefit.
@pops: that is a good idea only if we can consistently lynch faster than the other universe (and soon enough, it will be a race), while still lynching well. IMO, a bad plan.-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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That goes down as my own stupid fault thenFishythefish wrote:Aaaah! I didn't notice that if our teleporter is pulled, we don't get a teleporter that night. Is that new?
*Zoraster Comment: it was new as of just before the game, so if you had read all the rules when you signed up, it had changed after that.*
@Gayle: the strategy discussion has wound down, and people have reads and stuff like that. Any comments on the game, now your easy excuse for active lurking has gone?-
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Fishythefish Mafia Scum
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Says you. I found out that you were scum.Gayle wrote:I happen to find RVS very useful. It gets the game started, it gives you questions to ask, votes and bandwagons to question, etc. With the strategy discussion youmightfind a basis on which to begin scum hunting (as is the case in universe 2), or you might finish the discussion and gain absolutely no insight as to who is scum (as is the case in this universe).
Except, that's not what you did. You posted intermittently for 5 hours along the lines of "any more strategy discussion is useless". I don't see a single attempt to get anything else going. And given that you later admitted that you hadn't actually been following, how on earth can you claim to have known that no more discussion was needed? Frankly, these don't seem like the attitudes of someone who wants the best town strategy to emerge.Gayle wrote:Ugh, I like how I've been accused of actively lurking twice when I haven't even had a chance to do so. I'm sorry I went to sleep last night and didn't participate in your strategy back and forth that lead to absolutely zero scum hunting.
I'd say the amount of content in this game, even if you think all strategy talk is null, is enough to generate some reads - or at least a not-quite-random vote. I was wondering if you had any reads. A "no" would have sufficed - everything you say here seems to be saying something is totally null on all players concerned - like, in fact, everything else you've said.Gayle wrote:What am I supposed comment on? The strategy discussion? 'Cause aside from a question from Myko and attacks on myself, that is all that has happened. I don't find farside22's or DGB's replies to Myko's question scummy at all. I would probably have given the same type of answer. I think pop's attack on Flareonage was silly, but that is probably because I've played games with Flareonage before.
@elvis: mostly, we misunderstood the rules for a while, then settled on the following ideas:
1) Sometimes, it's very powerful to have a confirmed inno (teleporter/mason) in the other universe claim, and get pulled over here.
2) This is going to be very powerful later in the game (D4/5ish)
3) Teleporters have to choose a 3 day cycle of teleporting and pulling and stick to it (eg. TPTTPTTPT...). Because of 1 and 2, PTT is probably optimal.
4) If we get through D1 quicker than the OU, we can pull over their teleporter and profit.
IMO, 4 would be significant, and I'd be prepared to compromise a little on scumhunting to achieve it (but only a little).-
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Hmmm. I could cope with a Raskol lynch at this point. His vote on me for attacking Gayle over Gayle wanting to stop strategy discussions isn't wonderful - I don't see mine as the kind of point which leads to an easy bandwagon. Not only do I (obviously) not think that Gayle wanting to stop strategy discussions is protown, I think it's very surprising if Raskol thinks that that is such a natural belief. Not explaining this vote properly or following it up at all feels off as well. His second vote is another I very much disagree with - I don't find the post of EK's he quotes waffling in a scummy way at all.
unvote, vote: Raskol
I find DGB's play fairly disimilar to the last game we played together, where she was town. I don't get the same impression of extreme confidence that I did in that game. I need to go back and read her in that game before I'm very sure about that though.
@Ojanen: I think an individual scum would be very unhappy to be teleported into the OU at this stage.-
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- Liking Gayle a lot more. Makes a decent case against pops
- I agree with EK about publishing townreads. pops says we want to help the other universe with their pulling – no, we really, really don’t. That seems like an unlikely thought for town – it clearly hurts us if they pull well.
- Flare’s vote for myk is rather horrible. I see the passage of townreads theory as pretty null (with the exception of the above). I don’t understand how you’d get mykscum from it.
- myk’s slip looks bad. @myk: what was going through your head?-
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So, here's the scum thought process/fail.mykonian wrote:
damn. I see what you could see in that sentence.Fishythefish wrote:For me, it's very simple; it looks like your real win condition came into your head as you justified what the right move was, when you meant to type your supposed win condition.
But the whole warning was indeed to argue for the right move for town, so even if I was scum, I would have been arguing for town. The scum-wincondition is not related to it in any way (scum would benefit from confusion), so really, this was just a typo, seen the way it doesn't fit in the point I'm making.
But I guess I should read my own posts before posting to avoid this. Sorry.
You are trying to look protown in strategy discussions.
You give what you think is a protown strategy.
You then say, "and so it will help us win".
But you get the wrong "us" in this last clause.
I can also see another thought process/fail. You were typing the last sentence quickly, and the sentence "it only makes both universes more likely to lose against scum" melded with the sentence "it only makes both towns more likely to lose against scum" in an unfortunate way. The use of universe/town interchangeably in this game is exactly the kind of thing that leads to such typos.
Or, of course, the wrong word came out of your fingers for no reason. This happens, although this would be a particularly unfortunate mixup.
I find it hard to pick between these (I've had no experience of the "admitting that you're scum" type of scumslip). The first obviously makes you scum, the second and third are nulltells. For me, it is and will remain a significant point against you, but I don't think it's worthy of an instant lynch.-
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Er... can't find it. I'll try and work out what I meant later.popsofctown wrote:
What? Quote it. I do not recall saying that.fish wrote:- I agree with EK about publishing townreads. pops says we want to help the other universe with their pulling – no, we really, really don’t. That seems like an unlikely thought for town – it clearly hurts us if they pull well.-
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Wrong-player-fail. The post I was referring to was actually made by EK:popsofctown wrote:That is, try to hold me off with a promise to "figure out" what went through your head as you made a post like a day ago so you can wait and see if I get distracted and forget you uber-misrepped me?
unvote, vote: FishytheFish
elvis_knits 353 wrote:No offense I just don't agree with all of your posts.
Also, it's a horrible strategy for any game to hide who we think is town. Scum already can tell who they should NK. And for this game in particular since we have to coordinate with another universe, our reads will help them with pulling.
In this post, I switched the names "EK" and "pops" from what I intended to say.Fishythefish 384 wrote:- I agree with EK about publishing townreads. pops says we want to help the other universe with their pulling – no, we really, really don’t. That seems like an unlikely thought for town – it clearly hurts us if they pull well.-
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I like the DGB wagon best:
DGB on myk’s question is bad. If she finds the question, and responses, serious scumtells, why this, after the question and some responses:
If the question and the answerers are scummy, why didn’t you suspect anyone?DrippingGoofball 178 wrote:
No one, that should answer both questions.evilsnail wrote:Who do you suspect, DGB? Why are you not voting?
@ mykonian You're asking for my scumtells? How the heck should I know. I'm different in every game. Every game has a rhythm, and an atmosphere.
After she does say that people who answered are scum (208), she fails to notice 2 of the 3 players who answered it (farside, me). farside immediately points this out (212). DGB ignores this for a long time, which seems very odd – she is now using it as a serious argument, so why on earth wouldn’t she look at the responses to the question until they were shoved in her face for a third time?
This inconsistent pushing of a scumtell doesn’t look like a serious attempt to work out who the scum are – more like a convenient reason for votes/suspicions.
I don’t like her accusation of an ABR/myk scumteam based on the latter’s wanting one of ABR/DGB teleported away. It’s very much against scum-with-ABR myk's interests to have ABR teleported away, so this makes little sense. Feels like she just wants to sling dirt at myk. Also produces a very bad argument for her initial vote – clearly not reading myk’s thoughts on CSL before voting him over them – this at a time when myk was under some pressure.
DGB’s timeline on myk:
- Jumps on wagon as fourth vote after Plum finds myk’s slip
- Moves off, briefly, to ABR
- Revotes with crappy reasoning
This last bit really feels like an attempt to push forward an otherwise faltering wagon.
unvote, vote: DGB-
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There are clearly two explanations for myk's slip - it was a scumslip or an alignment neutral slip. To entertain them both as possibilities isn't "wishy-washy". I stated my conclusion - that I view it as a decent point against myk - and I don't really see how I could have been more concrete.evilsnail wrote:Fishythefish - I don't know, getting a bad gut feeling from his posts. He was very wishy-washy about a supposed slip by myko at some point and his initial Gayle vote was a bit off. Mostly this is gut, though.
What do you find off about my Gayle vote? I've got something to say on this when you've answered.-
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OK. I disagree with you that pops post was bad - Gayle's points against the strategy discussion were bad ones. I'd also remind when I made this vote - very early in the game and, contrary to what you said a little while ago, as the first vote in this bandwagon (not the fourth). I think that, at the time, there wasn't any better reason to vote for anyone.elvis_knits wrote:And fishy calls this excellent and uses it as his reason to vote gayle. No matter how much I dislike pops post here, I dislike somebody calling it excellent even more. Because I give people a little more leeway in saying stupid stuff if it's their own idea -- we all have moments of being wrong. But to AGREE with somebody else's lame ideas is harder for me to believe. It also avoid responsibility for having their own reason -- they can blame it on the other guy and his stupid reasoning. I think it's a way to avoid blame.
The Gayle bandwagon sunk for a good reason - the action it was based on was early and not a brilliant scumtell, and Gayle hasn't looked like scum since then. But I don't think there's anything wrong with my part in it.
@snail: if someone does something that may be because they are scum, or may be for alignment neutral reasons, that isn't a null tell. Because it's more likely to come from scum than town.-
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My post was about the 30th post of the game proper. pops's was about the 20th. I thought he had made the best point that was around in those posts, and made it well. Why shouldn't I use that as a reason to vote?elvis_knits wrote:I would have a problem with you copycatting pops reason, even if I thought pops had a good reason. Why weren't you thinking for yourself?-
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@CSL: why do you think I'm scummy?
I believe DGB is scum. Her inconsistencies, particularly about myk's question, point to a player who is thinking about making cases, not about who is scum.
I'm not at all sure what to think about voting and unvoting CSL in the same post. It's a bit weird - but why would scum do it, particularly? It's hardly effective distancing.-
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OK: on the myk question thing, you have said repeatedly that you view it as a good scumtell, on both the questioner and the answerers. But you failed to even read the responses to the questions, even when it was pointed out they existed. That's very inconsistent with a townie who is trying to work out who the scum are - you failed to apply what you claim to see as a good way of finding scum. It's consistent with scum, making up scumtells (or maybe using ones you consider real, it's irrelevant), to further your cases.DrippingGoofball wrote:Explain exactly what you mean when you say that I am "thinking about making cases" and not "who is scum."
It better be convincing.-
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EK: I think pairwise scumhunting d1 with no information is a terrible reason for a vote - simply because you're much less likely to be right trying to name multiple scum. Is there anything about CSL himself that makes you think he is scum? I think the connection with me would be better left until he flips scum (which I don't really think he would).-
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The other universe needs to read this
DGB just claimed mason.
If that's a fake claim, we need a counterclaim.
If it's not, how's this for a plan?
Other universe lynches first. Pulls over DGB, who lives confirmed town there. Night 2, we lynch first, pull over DGB, who lives confirmed town here day 3. Night 3, she gets her head blown off.
unvote-
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Someone in the other universe needs to quote this
If you lynch first today, you get a confirmed inno with serious scumhunting power tomorrow. DGB has claimed mason, and so far hasn't been counterclaimed. Pull her across and be in a much better position. DP is a decent lynch, no need to hang around 2 days before doing the inevitable.
The following players haven't posted since DGB's claim:
Raskol
Plum
Ojanen
evilsnail
Once they have, it's safe to assume that DGB is real.
I don't have any other strong suspicions right now. Obviously, I'll be trying to get some as a matter of urgency.-
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By my (unreliable) count, ABR is at L-2. Hemust not be lynched yet. If DGB is real, she can be kept alive for two more days, one in the other universe, one here. Confirmed townies are a Good Thing. DGB's scumhunting ability is a Good Thing. Forcing the scum's hand night three is a Better Thing than doing so on night one. We must wait for the other universe to lynch, or it becomes clear that they cannot do so. Two days is a very long time to get two votes - and we have plenty of active players to cast those votes. Anyone who lets us go into night first gets an automatic vote from me for killing off DGB.
Also, it's important that we are sure there is no counterclaim coming - lynching before all players have posted since DGB's claim would be madness.
I'm not totally comfortable with an ABR lynch - my gut really thinks he's town. If my vote is needed in a deadline situation, I'll do that, but I'd prefer to lynch CSL. EK's points on him are good, and move my read from neutral to scummy.
With the level of activity, and over two days left, this lynch doesn't need to be a panicked rush. We have 8 players around who are prepared to vote ABR, if necessary, in the last 12 hours before the lynch. But atm the deadline isn't an excuse for voting for someone who isn't your top suspect.-
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A thought strikes:
If ABR is scum, and gets to L-1, it's in his interests to self hammer to lynch before the other universe, so DGB can be killed off. On no account should anyone vote for him now. In fact, as an insurance against stupidity or wrong vote counts, I'd feel more comfortable if someone unvoted him now.-
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Ellibereth should stay here, and stay alive.
Come the endgame, we are going to have some players from our universe here, and some from the OU. If the OU finishes before us, we are then going to know how many of each kind of scum we have, and have a pool of players each is from. This will very much aid us in scumhunting. Also, it is very unlikely that at any point, OU scum will be a threat over here (it would take two successful teleports, and us teleporting/killing our scum well). There is also the chance that the OU scum teleport him back for endgame reasons.
Also, whatever his alignment, Elli's motivations here (at least during the day) are to hunt for scum. At night, he will do nothing.
There's a balance to be struck between the information that a mix of universes can give us and the confusion it can potentially cause. There's some optimal number of OU players to have over here - but it's certainly not 0. Until we have 2 OU scum over here, they aren't something to worry about until very late in the game. I'd be happiest with 2-3 players from the OU here at all times.
Even if Elli is our most likely scum (I confess to not having read him in the OU yet - though I will), he is not the player who is most dangerous to us atm. As such, he is a bad lynch, and a bad teleport.
Also, if a decent chunk of the town agree with these ideas (which are right even without this paragraph), our scum have enormous motivation to kill Elli, who is dangerous to them because he is a bad lynch/teleport and, if scum, very bad for them in an endgame situation.
I'm very happy to argue this point for as long as it takes. Players from the OU are a great asset, and the confusion and possible second scum faction they bring is well worth it.
The OU should take note of this. It is well worth it for both towns to split up both scum factions, if at all possible. This means that, for now at least, teleporting back players is counterproductive.-
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@farside: you say you find my reasoning "scummy".
From the PoV of the scum, my plan means it is more likely they are divided, and more likely they have to worry about another kill in this universe. Why would I propose it as scum?
OK, so suppose that the OU, in it's infinite wisdom, is deciding to send back evilsnail. Then here is something similar to the choice we (or, rather, our teleporter) faces:
He is in a mountainous game with ~10 players in it, and 2 or three scum (depending on if we lynch scum - evilsnail is back). If he likes, he can get rid of the scummiest player, and replace them with a player who has about the same chance of being scum as that player does. But the replacement, if he comes in and is scum, will be a SK without a kill, rather than a member of the mafia faction. Should he make the swap?
Things aren't quite that simple - people come back and forth. But if you are arguing for a course of action that basically keeps the towns as they started, you are pretty much arguing that the player in the above scenario shouldn't make the swap. Which in my view is madness.
"We don't want their scum" is an emotive argument about the apparent unfairness of risking having scum who aren't ours around. But the equal chance of giving our scum in returnfaroutweighs this - because a scum in a strong faction is hugely much more powerful than an isolated non-killing scum. I see this as no more than an appeal to emotion.
Again - anyone who disagrees with me, please please say so. I want to convince the teleporter that I am right, and obviously have no way of telling if I've done so, so I'd like everyone to understand where I'm coming from, and ideally agree with me.
@myko: what else would scum-elli do except scumhunt? Pretty much his only chances of winning are either getting back to U2 or reducing U1 scum. I'd say the latter is well worth his while. I do agree that supposing he's going to be a serious protown force here is optimistic.
These theory posts are relatively easy - serious time to work out who is scum hasn't happened yet. I'll do that in ~24 hours time.-
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Do I want more scum to "crowd into this universe"? Talk about a loaded question. Here and now, I am arguing for havingoneplayer from the other universe over here. If he is scum, he is scum with no friends or kill, who has a good chance of being totally outed in the endgame. Yeah, I'd risk having a toothless SK over here for a comparable chance of reducing the scumteam by one.
The language you are using makes it sound as if this is a one way deal - we get their scum, and are screwed, while they laugh at us. This is emphatically not the case.-
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Sure. The OU is sending us scummy players. And what are we sending back? Scummy players.farside22 wrote:Okay lets try this again. 1) I'm aware no one has a clue what eli's allignment is but clearly looking at the OU he wasn't sent here for his winning personality.
This leads me to (2) the OU decided to go with the orginal lets screw over the U1 with scummy people approach. So I suspect tomorrow we will get another player they (the teleporter) deemed scummy and sent our way. So no I don't want players here that OU deemed scummy in our universe.On average, we are sending as much scum as we are getting back.
Suppose we each get one of the two teleports right, and both lynch wrongly. Then the situation tomorrow is:
6 town vs 2 U1 vs 1 U2 scum here
6 town vs 2 U2 vs 1 U1 scum there
This is so much better than 6 vs 3 in both places.
I'll say it again: for every potential U2 scum we receive, we send back an equally scummy U1 player. For now, and probably for the whole game, U2 scum are not going to be a serious threat over here. Therefore, trading likely-U1-scum for likely-U2-scum is a very good deal indeed.
Your arguments still completely ignore the thrust of my arguments - that on average we are getting rid of dangerous scum and replacing them with feeble scum, which is a Good Thing.
The OU is only going with the sane, let's use our teleports wisely approach. It's not going with the plan of quicklynching, which everybody shouted at them for. And your arguments feel like irrational hatred of the OU for sending us likely scum, without thinking about how best to improve our chances of victory.-
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As noted by Ojanen and farside, my teleportation thoughts have been more/deeper than my scumhunting thoughts. This is because (at least for me) game theory is easy, and scumhunting is hard. The posts I made a couple of days ago took me a total of maybe 10 minutes to think and write, and I’m sure they are almost entirely right; this post has taken more like two hours, and the conclusions in it might be totally off the mark. I acknowledge that theory posts are no substitute for scumhunting, and until the reread I just did I’ve considered myself behind in this game.
It should be noted that the mafia may, just possibly, have known DGB was here in order to kill her. They had 3 minutes to make their kill after the OU exited night. Otherwise, they took a big gamble – which makes CSL the softclaimed teleporter look bad, since he was the obvious other kill.
Scummy people:
CSL on slip –
1. Votes myk, saying it was a huge slip.
2. Claims, implausibly, to have found a slip from many pages ago independently from Plum.
3. Unvotes, saying “the vote has served its purpose”. What was that purpose?
Publishes an unconvincing scumlist – reasons are “scummy posts” (me and snail), “Not here” (raskol), “not scumhunting enough” (ABR) and “meta” (pops). Of these, only ABR’s is a good reason – the others either aren’t scumtells or need expansion.
Defends with “I’m not scum – wouldn’t have killed DGB”. There’s a three man scum team. This is just the kind of thing I can imagine someone saying as scum if I personally wouldn’t have kill DGB, but my scumpartners overruled me/talked me into it.
Verdict: Fairly likely scum. Clearly has a scummy-looking playstyle generally, but even within this has lied, and generally gives me a scum read.
evilsnail I really don’t like. Reading him in iso, there’s a huge amount of stuff which falls into the categories of null reads, discrediting other points, calling people town, strategy discussion of the kind that reads protown but doesn’t really say anthing, weakening his own points with equivocal reads, and other assorted things which don’t commit him in any way to any serious reads. He’s leaving himself in a position to vote CSL, myko and myself – perhaps the three easiest lynches in the game right now. His play feels like trying to stay under the radar and be in a position to get a town lynch. I really think he is scum.
vote:evilsnail
pops: Of the wagon on DGB, his vote is definitely the one I find least convincing. It’s really about DGB scumhunting vocally and certainly – which is very much in her meta. I don’t really believe pops thought the evilsnail vote from DGB was so bad that pushing it hard merited a vote. Oj says this post is bizarre – and pops replies that an analysis of DGB is expected to be bizarre. Yes, but I’d also expect it to convince me you thought she was scum, if it’s followed with a vote.
I also find his vote for me unconvincing – it’s ridiculously aggressive to vote someone for not being able to find a quote, and saying they’ll explain it later. Particularly when the immediate unvote is followed a little later with a vote for EK, this looks like a way to move off DGB onto another wagon.
The reason for jumping back onto DGB is that DGB didn’t stop declaring reads with no support after pops attacked her for it. This is crap – it doesn’t become a better scumtell after you pointed it out. This suggests that you think town are more likely to respond to accusations by changing the way they play – which seems like rubbish.-
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