Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[zoraster]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 3 ) elvis_knits Ellibereth Rhinox
elvis_knits ( 1 ) mykonian
evilsnail ( 1 ) Raskol
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
Hoopla ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 7 ) ojanen evilsnail farside22 popsofctown CSL fishythefish Hoopla
Total Votes ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

[Fishythefish]

@farside: you say you find my reasoning "scummy".
From the PoV of the scum, my plan means it is more likely they are divided, and more likely they have to worry about another kill in this universe. Why would I propose it as scum?

OK, so suppose that the OU, in it's infinite wisdom, is deciding to send back evilsnail. Then here is something similar to the choice we (or, rather, our teleporter) faces:

He is in a mountainous game with ~10 players in it, and 2 or three scum (depending on if we lynch scum - evilsnail is back). If he likes, he can get rid of the scummiest player, and replace them with a player who has about the same chance of being scum as that player does. But the replacement, if he comes in and is scum, will be a SK without a kill, rather than a member of the mafia faction. Should he make the swap?

Things aren't quite that simple - people come back and forth. But if you are arguing for a course of action that basically keeps the towns as they started, you are pretty much arguing that the player in the above scenario shouldn't make the swap. Which in my view is madness.

"We don't want their scum" is an emotive argument about the apparent unfairness of risking having scum who aren't ours around. But the equal chance of giving our scum in return

far

outweighs this - because a scum in a strong faction is hugely much more powerful than an isolated non-killing scum. I see this as no more than an appeal to emotion.

Again - anyone who disagrees with me, please please say so. I want to convince the teleporter that I am right, and obviously have no way of telling if I've done so, so I'd like everyone to understand where I'm coming from, and ideally agree with me.

@myko: what else would scum-elli do except scumhunt? Pretty much his only chances of winning are either getting back to U2 or reducing U1 scum. I'd say the latter is well worth his while. I do agree that supposing he's going to be a serious protown force here is optimistic.

These theory posts are relatively easy - serious time to work out who is scum hasn't happened yet. I'll do that in ~24 hours time.

[Fishythefish]

OK, so suppose that the OU, in it's infinite wisdom, is deciding to send back evilsnail.

Or, even more likely, Plum.

[farside22]

evil is still in this universe. Plum was sent over although I not sure why Plum was sent over. It seems I didn't see anyone really call suspicion on him.
Do you really want more scum to crowd into this universe and start of 2 scum teams fight it out with the town in the middle trying to sort through the chaos?

[Fishythefish]

Do I want more scum to "crowd into this universe"? Talk about a loaded question. Here and now, I am arguing for having

one

player from the other universe over here. If he is scum, he is scum with no friends or kill, who has a good chance of being totally outed in the endgame. Yeah, I'd risk having a toothless SK over here for a comparable chance of reducing the scumteam by one.

The language you are using makes it sound as if this is a one way deal - we get their scum, and are screwed, while they laugh at us. This is emphatically not the case.

[farside22]

Do I want more scum to "crowd into this universe"? Talk about a loaded question. Here and now, I am arguing for having

one

player from the other universe over here. If he is scum, he is scum with no friends or kill, who has a good chance of being totally outed in the endgame. Yeah, I'd risk having a toothless SK over here for a comparable chance of reducing the scumteam by one.

The language you are using makes it sound as if this is a one way deal - we get their scum, and are screwed, while they laugh at us. This is emphatically not the case.

Okay lets try this again. 1) I'm aware no one has a clue what eli's allignment is but clearly looking at the OU he wasn't sent here for his winning personality.
This leads me to (2) the OU decided to go with the orginal lets screw over the U1 with scummy people approach. So I suspect tomorrow we will get another player they (the teleporter) deemed scummy and sent our way. So no I don't want players here that OU deemed scummy in our universe.

[Ojanen]

I was in the middle of a catchup when ABR got hammered. Saved some thoughts in my notes, might as well post them. Up-to-date stuff in a bit when I'm done with the latest couple of pages.

The meta evidence on DGB is pretty damning, unless DGB does this as town too. I've never played with DGB before and I'm too lazy to do the research myself, so anyone ready to level with me and come do DGB's defense? I've seen these go both ways though.

Horrors from Rhinox!
The meta evidence is damning unless she does this as town too? ugh!
The post (654) feels a little like it could be egging on the biggest wagon at that point (DGB), who Rhinox hasn't almost mentioned before except in positive light for agreeing early with her stance on myko's question.

Can you dig from your memory this: Did you think at this point DGB was scum?

Scum, definately. Town wouldn't reason that way, so saying she acted that way also shows how I think about her. I didn't disagree on her town read of plum, but it wasn't because her opinions suited me at that moment, like they did for DGB.

Ok. It just felt a little weird how you quasi-defended the arguments of someone you thought was definitively scum, those arguments being based on you being scum, wouldn't you assume possible maliciousness? (referring to following:)

Gayle, look at who said it: DGB has thought me scum for quite some time. It isn't that weird for her to call her new bystander (who found what a lot of people read over) town. Can't say I disagree, though plum doesn't post enough yet.

Plum asked the question, gayle... Investigation is towny. CSL just hopped on, DGB used it to finally follow her suspicion with a vote. Pop's could be right, because this is pretty much target practice for scum.

The last point on CSL is false. CSL read the current page, plum was one of the last posts, and voted on that. His unvote was much worse, after DGB unvoted.

This missed the point on why I voted CSL btw. It was because when suspicion was dealt for following, he claimed that no, he wasn't following plum's post, instead he found the slip himself independently, which seemed just plain untrue.
@CSL please answer about this. Ignoring my questions got you the vote yesterday.

[Ojanen]

I think Fishy is right about Elli.

[popsofctown]

He softclaimed teleporter and didn't get NKed.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE??? HMMMMMMMM?????11eleven

lol.

Do I want more scum to "crowd into this universe"? Talk about a loaded question. Here and now, I am arguing for having

one

player from the other universe over here. If he is scum, he is scum with no friends or kill, who has a good chance of being totally outed in the endgame. Yeah, I'd risk having a toothless SK over here for a comparable chance of reducing the scumteam by one.

The language you are using makes it sound as if this is a one way deal - we get their scum, and are screwed, while they laugh at us. This is emphatically not the case.

Okay lets try this again. 1) I'm aware no one has a clue what eli's allignment is but clearly looking at the OU he wasn't sent here for his winning personality.
This leads me to (2) the OU decided to go with the orginal lets screw over the U1 with scummy people approach. So I suspect tomorrow we will get another player they (the teleporter) deemed scummy and sent our way. So no I don't want players here that OU deemed scummy in our universe.

Fishy: ":logic: And btw, farside, remember that mafia is a game of logic, and you should avoid emotive arguments"

Farside: ":totally emotion based thought:"

[popsofctown]

Plus that I just have something against helping the other universe, when they clearly don't care about the game (not getting DGB).

I really hope you don't think that one idiotic decision by a single player here means that we should intentionally be trying to screw each other over. Both towns are going to lose if we turn on each other, I can almost guarantee that.

I'm just as pissed as you about it since we're probably the ones who were hurt more by it, but I think we should just move past it for now and hope that the Teleporters can wisen up in future days.

I really hate playing the diplomat, but encouraging rage across the universe is anti-town at best.

By anti-town do mean anti-U2 town? That's the only one the teleporter cares about, if that.

[Fishythefish]

Okay lets try this again. 1) I'm aware no one has a clue what eli's allignment is but clearly looking at the OU he wasn't sent here for his winning personality.
This leads me to (2) the OU decided to go with the orginal lets screw over the U1 with scummy people approach. So I suspect tomorrow we will get another player they (the teleporter) deemed scummy and sent our way. So no I don't want players here that OU deemed scummy in our universe.

Sure. The OU is sending us scummy players. And what are we sending back? Scummy players.

On average

, we are sending as much scum as we are getting back.

Suppose we each get one of the two teleports right, and both lynch wrongly. Then the situation tomorrow is:
6 town vs 2 U1 vs 1 U2 scum here
6 town vs 2 U2 vs 1 U1 scum there
This is so much better than 6 vs 3 in both places.

I'll say it again: for every potential U2 scum we receive, we send back an equally scummy U1 player. For now, and probably for the whole game, U2 scum are not going to be a serious threat over here. Therefore, trading likely-U1-scum for likely-U2-scum is a very good deal indeed.

Your arguments still completely ignore the thrust of my arguments - that on average we are getting rid of dangerous scum and replacing them with feeble scum, which is a Good Thing.

The OU is only going with the sane, let's use our teleports wisely approach. It's not going with the plan of quicklynching, which everybody shouted at them for. And your arguments feel like irrational hatred of the OU for sending us likely scum, without thinking about how best to improve our chances of victory.

[Gayle]

@Fishy:

I always black out in the middle of your posts. Can I get a TL;DR version? I don't understand why we shouldn't just lynch the scummiest player, regardless of what universe they are from.

[Fishythefish]

TL/DR:
Universe 1 scum is scary. Universe 2 scum is not. We should lynch and teleport U1 scum.

[mykonian]

@myko: what else would scum-elli do except scumhunt? Pretty much his only chances of winning are either getting back to U2 or reducing U1 scum. I'd say the latter is well worth his while. I do agree that supposing he's going to be a serious protown force here is optimistic.

I think he will do what scum always does: trying not to get lynched/killed. He'll let the others deal with the mafia1.

@Ojanen. I don't know if I understood you right, but I thought Plum town for the way she investigated. Her conclusions were wrong (myko is scum), but she was scumhunting.

DGB had been on me for some time then, for bad reasons, and finally cast the vote based on Plums investigation. So I was definately not defending DGB.

How often have you seen scum follow town, on a bandwagon that isn't right? I believed that happened there.

PS: can we pull VP, btw. He really is too smart for the other universe, as I can see it. We could use him here.

[mykonian]

Raskol, where are you?

[mykonian]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

?

Here you are.

Well, you correctly analyzed that Elvis voted on a terrible reason, and then...

you vote evilsnail :/

[elvis_knits]

Stop strawmanning me about CSL. I am not only voting him because he wasn't NKed. That was an afterthought.

[mykonian]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

[CSL]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, I wouldn't have killed DGB last night.

[farside22]

I don't see the point of keeping all players that the OU throws at us especially if they are scummy. It's is just in my view players for our universe scums to hid behind.

vote: Hoopla

This is in leu of my gut feel on flare and so far hoopla hasn't offered much insight to the game but noise

[elvis_knits]

I know the case on CSL.

But that afterthought is plain wrong, still you use it. Why did you need that point with your vote?

I attack you on your points, how is that strawmanning?

You are attacking me on one point which was an afterthought and not part of my main case and call the whole case crap. Do you have a problem with my main points?

Reposting:

CSL is scum because:

1) He vote Myko based on the scum slip (bad vote at best, IMO), then he unvoted like a scared puppy. Later, myko isn't even on his scum list.

2) He said he wasn't following Plum, which he clearly was, especially given the page number he said he was on when he voted.

3) Not giving any reasoning for his votes.

4) Asking to be allowed to live to night, saying he's okay with being NKed. He's hinting at being the teleporter, right?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not scum. If I was scum, I wouldn't have killed DGB last night.

So who is scum?

[elvis_knits]

A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said.

Also, "Strawmanning" involves taking a small piece of the case someone has built up that is weaker than their other points and blowing it up. They can then defeat the weaker point and use that as 'proof' that everything that person has said is wrong.

People strawmanning me about CSL:

Raskol and Myko

[evilsnail]

I need to get caught up on this game. Will try to post something substantial tonight. Have a project I need to finish and hand in first.

[Raskol]

Just went through CSL in iso, and it requires quite a stretch to get to the idea that he softclaimed teleporter. He mentioned getting NK'ed, but only in the context of saying that he would be happy just living through Day 1 (ie, not getting lynched for once).

So...the "why is he still alive?" line of thought isn't terribly convincing to me.

I'm still liking evilsnail for my vote, meanwhile.

vote: evilsnail

this makes me slightly sad, after you've seen that reason for a vote is terrible.

?

Here you are.

Well, you correctly analyzed that Elvis voted on a terrible reason, and then...

you vote evilsnail :/

Elvis voted CSL for that reason (among others), I voted evilsnail based on entirely different reasons that you can see if you read me in iso. The tow aren't really related at all, except that I wanted to explain why I didn't feel like voting CSL before returning to my D1 suspicions.

Elvis, I don't think that's the only reason you're voting CSL. I remember what you said about him yesterday. But I wasn't convinced by those and so I'm saying I'm not newly convinced by this new line of thinking. So yeah.