War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Finally.
OK First off, don't be an idiot and hurt too quickly.
Kills/Lynches need to be decided before the first hurt. We cannot allow players to build up hurts, because especially in late game if we let this get out a hand it won't matter what sort of majority we have because without order the scum will win.
This game is less about majority and more about coordination. We need to coordinate our actions or else we will be forced to react.
As it stands, I'd like to propose the first rule of this war: Heal anyone who is Hurt unless we have decided to lynch/kill them, much like Cybele has done.
Random/reactions need to be reigned in.
Second rule, you MUST be active. In this game where a coordinate assault by a minority can cause a kill the town MUST be active to prevent an active minority from taking this game.
Quick days will only HELP the scum, so I intend to draw out their intentions and actions and refuse to let them cause chaos and push the town into hasty actions.
This is not a game you can sit back and win. If you are not active, leave and be replaced now. I refuse to allow you to ruin it.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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True I didn't know about the specifics of rage points, however I did anticipate a way to secretly hurt. As such, because of this point you brought up (and what I was eluding to in my previous post), we should be able to minimize their effect.populartajo wrote:
After all that has been said, do you still think this?Kinetic wrote:Finally.
OK First off, don't be an idiot and hurt too quickly.
Kills/Lynches need to be decided before the first hurt. We cannot allow players to build up hurts, because especially in late game if we let this get out a hand it won't matter what sort of majority we have because without order the scum will win.
This game is less about majority and more about coordination. We need to coordinate our actions or else we will be forced to react.
As it stands, I'd like to propose the first rule of this war: Heal anyone who is Hurt unless we have decided to lynch/kill them, much like Cybele has done.
Random/reactions need to be reigned in.
Second rule, you MUST be active. In this game where a coordinate assault by a minority can cause a kill the town MUST be active to prevent an active minority from taking this game.
Quick days will only HELP the scum, so I intend to draw out their intentions and actions and refuse to let them cause chaos and push the town into hasty actions.
This is not a game you can sit back and win. If you are not active, leave and be replaced now. I refuse to allow you to ruin it.
As long as we keep everyone topped off unless we decide to kill them, the less secret damage becomes an issue.populartajo wrote:Sorry for the fourth post but I think this is also important:
1. Town lost last time because town's HP were already low for random hurtings. I dont agree with random hurting but I also dont agree with long days (more rage points). We have to find a balance.
Either way I'm still going to look over all the information carefully and see if there is anything I missed.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Yes, as long as possible, but not too long that it becomes horribly detrimental. I've yet to see a game where quick lynching has won the game, and I refuse to quick lynch for the sake of such. This doesn't mean I'm advocating waiting forever, but I'm not going to make hasty decisions either.Albert B. Rampage wrote:FOS: Kinetic
You want to make the day as long as possible, which goes in direct contradiction to this rage point theory.
You also have to look at the other side of the coin. While the scum are saving points, they aren't using them, which makes them useless until actually used. It does mean that they can dump, and effectively night kill with such a dump, but these rules highly favor the town, not the scum.
By making sure we're not spreading damage we can make it so rage dumps are few and far between.
You can go to +1 your "maximum" health, read the rules.Albert B. Rampage wrote:I don't understand the healing of players that haven't taken damage yet. Somebody explain?
Not wrong, by your own admission. I judge length more by the number of posts and less by the time it takes to get the posts.q21 wrote:
Wrong. Long days allow scum to accumulate rage points as has been pointed out. Quick days in terms of real life time help the town. Optimal town play requires long day is terms of posts but quick in terms of time.Kinetic wrote: Quick days will only HELP the scum, so I intend to draw out their intentions and actions and refuse to let them cause chaos and push the town into hasty actions.
Either way, I think its generally agreed upon at this time not to take too long, but also not to let rage points control us either.
Something about this post reeks.Xylthixlm wrote:I don't see any need to subvert the hurt/heal mechanism. Just try to concentrate your fire on people who are already hurt, rather than wearing everyone down at once. That will make it harder for scum to suddenly kill townies using secret damage.
As several people have said, a fast-paced game helps the town even more than normal. Expect scum to try to slow it down by lurking.
FOS:Xyl
I disagree with this. I think we need to Mass fire so we learn exactly who and how many people are on the "wagon" so to speak. The way this game is set up your "vote" is refreshed every day or so, and as such a small group can kill someone rather quickly.Nuwen wrote:If we do choose to focus fire, I think we should avoid mass-firing in a short time and always have a heal cooldown ready for a rage damage dump.
Perhaps we should make another rule of sorts, Once you harm someone, for the time being, you do not harm them again. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it, but this system is very unique.
Basically I want to avoid a small group leading all the lynches. I want as many opinions on the kills as possible before someone dies.
Also, since the Smallest life pool total is 7, we should never try to hurt someone past that threshold without letting them claim at the very least. It also gives us a little buffer in case they have more HP that 7 and scum try and secret kill them.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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-.- Got it. You realize I HATE being called stupid right?
This is unbelievably stupid.Kinetic wrote:Perhaps we should make another rule of sorts, Once you harm someone, for the time being, you do not harm them again. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it, but this system is very unique.
Stop it now. Explain yourself. Why are my ideas stupid but yours are perfect? How do we even KNOW there is a rage like mechanic in this game like the last one? Hell I can think of 3 or 4 different mechanics which are similar but work on different principals other than time (such as, 1 rage every time someone is killed, or 1 rage every time one of them is harmed, etc etc)
I want to gain as much information as possible from kills.
Tell me, HOW IS THAT UNBELIEVIBLY STUPID OMG< LOL HAHAHA HAHAHA AH HAHA HA HAH AQH REAHGEAGHN AERG $#QTG$#GF AWERGFR.
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Umm... no. Read what I wrote just a few sentences earlier. I am for mass movements of kills, in a short time frame, but from multiple players, once we've decided among ourselves on a kill.
Trying to force-stall a game again.Kinetic wrote: Basically I want to avoid a small group leading all the lynches. I want as many opinions on the kills as possible before someone dies.
I am not for having 3 people using hard three times in as many days and killing someone and only those three people having "opinions" on the attack.
Having 7-10 people on a lynch is usually better than 3-4, at least in my experience.
If we have lurkers and people who are non-committal, that needs to be dealt with. But just giving up on those players and going forward with a lynch is hasty and one of the things I'm trying to avoid. We need ACTIVE players who are able to make decisions. And when we have ACTIVE players we can organize a lynch quickly and you don't need to worry about your precious rage mechanics (which I'm starting to believe may not even exist in the way you're all preaching them).
After thinking about it for a bit, I realize that claims are not really that big of a deal in this game, based on the types of roles that are out there and the mechanics behind it.
Wow!! NO! We don't ask for claims in a game like this, we rape the scum like thunder before they realize what hit them.Kinetic wrote: Also, since the Smallest life pool total is 7, we should never try to hurt someone past that threshold without letting them claim at the very least. It also gives us a little buffer in case they have more HP that 7 and scum try and secret kill them.
I reiterate: no waiting for claims!
Kinetic is trying to stall the game AGAIN. That's 3 times now. After we've all capped off at our maximum hp, we should kill Kinetic right off the bat.
My mistake. However, I can admit when this game trips me up a little bit, but I'm still willing to be active and pro-town.
I'd appreciate it if you would have some courtesy and be civil.
As for the charge of stalling, I think you're being way to hot-headed. This is the way I am. I think, I reason, and I discuss. It is how I play and it is how I win. The mind cannot be rushed and I will not be hasty in my decision making.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Got it, so you're for ignoring theories which could be valid just because they don't fit perfectly?Albert B. Rampage wrote:Kinetic, please.
This is a nightless game and the rage mechanic makes perfect sense. The hypothetical mechanics that you suggest here are incredibly broken in favor of town. The only constant factor in this game is total post count and time. I doubt that the more we post, the more we are punished for it, so the only mechanic left is time. The rage theory fits perfectly into a game like this.Kinetic wrote:Stop it now. Explain yourself. Why are my ideas stupid but yours are perfect? How do we even KNOW there is a rage like mechanic in this game like the last one? Hell I can think of 3 or 4 different mechanics which are similar but work on different principals other than time (such as, 1 rage every time someone is killed, or 1 rage every time one of them is harmed, etc etc)
I know a thing about creating and breaking complex set ups. The first thing you do to counter such a breaking is to intentionally leave imperfections, because such unanticipated imperfections are often what make perfect balance.
It makes sense, which is also why I'm not dismissing it, but I'm not one who will dismiss other possible logical theories... In fact, this post limit to rage sounds interesting... In a larger game (which this is), with more players, it may be a more balanced mechanic than time, and one which can be largely controlled by an informed minority.
Good thinking...
I am doing no such thing. And you are misrepresenting my position.ABR wrote:You are, again, trying to take advantage of future indecisive players. Don't you know how difficult it is to gain a consensus, especially with 5-7 scum counter-acting us? Stop trying to stall the game. If someone doesn't have an input, we carry on and kill off the scummy player without them. We don't have all day to wait for sporadically active players to weigh in.
I do not think it would be wise for a small group of people to perform the kills. I think it would be wise if we did have input from a larger group. Since the SCUM group clearly is large enough for your small group kill mentality, what is to stop the SCUM from driving these lynches?
The smaller the group that decides the lynches the LARGER the influence the scum will have on it. How can you not understand that concept?
I'm not for waiting around for lurkers to decide a lynch, which is why I want a very active town, but I'm also not for a small group to essentially bulldoze the town into submission.
Think of it like this: If there are 2-3 players out of 20 who are lurking, I can get behind not waiting for them. That is a small group. If there are 12-14 players not giving input I cannot get behind said lynch/kill.
I want at least 50% of the town at least giving INPUT on said lynch, whether they oppose or support it at the very least, before going forward with a kill. I think that is the MINIMUM acceptable standards, but I would gladly accept more.
Look at the time stamps. I thought we were just spreading around the heals, noticed he wasn't healed and healed him. It just happened at the exact same moment as someone else.populartajo wrote:Votecount.
Kinetic. 2(Tajo, ABR)
Hoopla 1(q21)
Not voting 17 (Cybele, Drench, DrippingGoofball, Giuseppe, Hoopla, Juls, Kinetic, Nuwen, roflcopter, Seraphim,Shinnen_no_Me,Tenchi,The Fonz,vIQleS,WaltWishbone,Xylthixlm,zwetschenwasser)
Kinetic why did you heal ABR? Heal someone else, plz.
Fail. Please, help the scum more. kthx.roflcopter wrote:healing everyone to one above starting hit points seems like its just going to drag this day out. didn't we already establish that long days in this game are extra bad for the town?
hurt: kinetic
die fallen angel scum die
Got it, but you're clearly scum, so I can clearly not believe anything you say.roflcopter wrote:the above applies to people voting kinetic. people voting xyl should get over it because he's clearly town. abr is town too.
Disagree. For one, it means one more of these rage points to kill someone, multiply that by everyone who is max health... This is the reason why random hurting is bad. We don't want to help the scum do their job so they can efficiently use rage points. What we want to do is make it difficult for them to do anything.roflcopter wrote:so, healing every single person to starting health +1 seems like a gigantic waste of time, and way too many people are hiding in this discussion when they should be scumhunting.
Good catch.Shinnen_no_Me wrote:Heal: Seraphim.
Heal me back!
Also,
How can you be so sure? That's a pretty solid number, you know. The only way you would know that is that you know how much scum there are, hence, you must be a scum as well.vIQleS wrote:Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.
FoS: vIQ
(My, this sure is a fast paced topic. When I was posting my last post, I was in the middle of page 4, and when I finished it, it was in page 5!)FoS: ViQ. I renew Shinnen's question, how are you so sure about the distribution?
This is more of a limitation on a small group from forcing a lynch/kill on someone with little to no input from anyone else. I feel that the smaller the group pushing the kills the more that the scum can influence said group. I want at least SOME sort of consensus before we kill someone off.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
A rule that blocks a townie's ability to hurt the same player consecutively after his refreshment period. The reason this is scummy is because it would most likely lead said townie to hurt someoneKinetic wrote:Perhaps we should make another rule of sorts, Once you harm someone, for the time being, you do not harm them again. I'm trying to think of a way of wording it, but this system is very unique.else, spreading the damage and advantaging scum. Inherently, Kinetic wants to limit the town (read: screw the town over) by limiting its power and giving the scum more time to organize themselves. Remember, this being a nightless game, the scum are freely able to daytalk. They are coordinating their moves as we speak in their quicktopic thread.
Which is why after I thought about it I rescinded my stance on this issue. You were right, I openly admitted it, and I backed down. When I am wrong, I tend to do that.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
A rule that freezes the game once someone is at 6 damage for a claim. This is super anti-town since the mafia can claim whatever they want and the town is in no position to counter-claim since there are multiples of the same roles. He should know better than this, Kinetic wasn't born yesterday. Which means that he faked not knowing, so he could milk this pro-scum policy.Kinetic wrote: Also, since the Smallest life pool total is 7, we should never try to hurt someone past that threshold without letting them claim at the very least. It also gives us a little buffer in case they have more HP that 7 and scum try and secret kill them.
That being said, I brought it up because at the time I was still thinking of this more as a general mafia game, and this is a different beast. I did not read the previous game threads so I wasn't perfect in my knowledge.
As I learn more, my insights will be better, but I think you attacking me for what I SHOULD know when you very clearly weren't perfect on all the rules either is a little hypocritical. (I'm referring to the fact that you didn't know HP totals could go above their beginning maximum)
Actually this is more of the business school part of me, thinking about unrealized gains and losses being just that, unrealized, and when they are in such a conceptual form too many people give them real life values which are useless.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Here are another series of posts I'm not too fond of:
Downplaying the danger of scum, without actually making any points.Kinetic wrote:While the scum are saving points, they aren't using them, which makes them useless until actually used.
If a scum has a million rage points and we kill him, those rage points mean nothing.
You don't have any evidence that such a system exists either... I'm making assumptions based on YOUR and others assumptions. If the underlining assumption is wrong, yes, my assumption based upon it could also be wrong, but if you are right than my assumption can just as well be right.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Downplaying the scum -without any evidence- again.Kinetic wrote:It does mean that they can dump, and effectively night kill with such a dump, but these rules highly favor the town, not the scum.
I'm pretty good at this sort of deductive reasoning.
Read my above comments for my mind set on this. A larger group of people who are involved in a lynch means a smaller percentage of the group being scum, thus this is limiting scum power.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
Trying to stall the game - again.Kinetic wrote:I want as many opinions on the kills as possible before someone dies.
Look back at previous games, all of which I was town. I hate people who belittle me or call me stupid. It is the ONLY reason I have ever exploded in a thread. I don't like it. At all. I don't apologize for it, it is one of those things where it may be an imperfection, but it is one I live with and don't shy away from.Albert B. Rampage wrote:
His going crazy as soon as we caught his hand in the cookie jar. Kinetic probably expected us to debate his rules back and forth for pages on end, wasting precious scumhunting time. Look how flustered he is. And notice how I never attacked his person or called him stupid, either.Kinetic wrote:-.- Got it. You realize I HATE being called stupid right?
Stop it now. Explain yourself. Why are my ideas stupid but yours are perfect? How do we even KNOW there is a rage like mechanic in this game like the last one? Hell I can think of 3 or 4 different mechanics which are similar but work on different principals other than time (such as, 1 rage every time someone is killed, or 1 rage every time one of them is harmed, etc etc)
I want to gain as much information as possible from kills.
Tell me, HOW IS THAT UNBELIEVIBLY STUPID OMG< LOL HAHAHA HAHAHA AH HAHA HA HAH AQH REAHGEAGHN AERG $#QTG$#GF AWERGFR.
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Sluggish? Unproductive? Incapable of making decision?Albert B. Rampage wrote:
I think this, by Kinetic's own admission, admirably describes how he plans to play the rest of this game: sluggishly, unproductively, and showing an absolute incapability of making any sort of decision within a reasonable timeframe.Kinetic wrote:This is the way I am. I think, I reason, and I discuss. It is how I play and it is how I win. The mind cannot be rushed and I will not be hasty in my decision making.
He is, beyond a shadow of a doubt, a liability to this town.
And you base this on what? I am quite capable of rapid action once a course has been decided, but the way I am I must learn as much as possible in a reasonable time frame before I make such a decision. Don't get me wrong, I understand we're in a time crunch, but I REFUSE to allow that to effect my decision making.
This is how I play, it is how I've always played, and with my record behind me it is a winning strategy.
I really don't like it when someone is convinced solely on someone else's argument. It just reeks to me.Cybele wrote:Ok, I wasn't really seeing it before, but ABR's summarized case against Kinetic is convincing.Vote: Kinetic
Also: I really do agree with the idea of fake-voting instead of hurting. New mechanics means we need to adapt.
QFT.populartajo wrote:Normally Id agree with rolf you but this game is different.
EVERYBODY READ THIS.
If everybody acted like you, rolf, we would have everyone at -4HP at day 3 with rage points ready to finish the loyal part of the angels.
Hurting/healing in a disorganized way is not the way to go.
Voting fits the same objective. You think someone is scum. You vote that person. You change your mind. You unvote. You think someone else is scummier, you vote again.
If we change the wordvotewith the wordhurtwe achieve the same thing but we dont help scum with this retarded "hurting someone I think is scum"..
Topping everybody (24 hours recharge) is not a waste of time and could be helpful.
HURTING WITH NO ORDER WAS THE REASON WHY TOWN LOST THE FUCKING GAME LAST TIME.
After looking it over I'm not liking Rofl, but for some reason I'm not getting an overly scummy vibe from him... I don't like him though...
I completely don't like Xyl either... but again, something is nagging at me.
At this point myVoteis on eithervIQ or CybeleLarge Theme List Mod Emeritus
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That's a fair idea.Nuwen wrote:
The easiest way to do this is to cannibalize any small group of players bouncing from kill to kill. There's no need to neuter the entire town's capacity to quickhurt.Kinetic wrote: This is more of a limitation on a small group from forcing a lynch/kill on someone with little to no input from anyone else. I feel that the smaller the group pushing the kills the more that the scum can influence said group. I want at least SOME sort of consensus before we kill someone off.
And just to reiterate, I'm not looking for a solid majority consensus for every lynch (although I would prefer it), I'm looking for at least having a majority of the players in the game giving an opinion before we decide on a target.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Ha. Its kind of funny, I just did some math:
Assuming the lowest HP total is 7, all players can have at least 8 HP.
Assuming everything that is said about rage mechanics is true in this game, that means at most scum can only hold up to 3 rage points.
Assuming Scum have 4 or 5 players, at BEST they can only kill one person out right and wound a second.
Assuming scum is 6 or 7 players, at BEST they can only kill 2 players outright...
Interesting...Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Also, jut to put it out there, if scum "try" to kill someone and fail because we heal them in time, most likely this was a feint.
I know if I was scum there would never be a chance for someone to survive a rage dump, so I think this whole "saving a contingent for healing" stuff is a load of bullshit.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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populartajo wrote:Oh and here is the scum PM from the other game
Flay wrote:In addition to your usual powers, the force of your betrayal and anger give you strength. Every Sunday at noon (server time), you will receive 1 Rage Point that you may use in a secret attack by PMing me with a player's name. This damage will be reflected in the next damage tally, but not associated with your name. You may store them up, to a maximum of 3. If you are killed/cast out, you lose any remaining points.
You begin the game with 8 HP. You win if all loyal angels are killed, and at least one fallen angel survives. You may talk to your fellow (living) fallen angels outside of the game thread at any time, since this game is Nightless. If you are killed/cast out, stop talking.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Whoa! Three separate hurts is bad... that being said I don't have good reads on any of the players, not enough to heal any of them.
I support attacks on Shinnen and Xiq, but I'm still unsure on Xyl. Unsure enough that I won't support an attack on him.Shinnen_no_Me / Xylthixlm / vIQleS
I'm thinking the pushers for attacks are right. Once we have decided on a "lynch" can we at least agree that it isn't a bad thing to heal the other players if there is a lot of harm going around?
If we want a consensus, why not state once someone has 33% in votes (which at this point would be 6 or 7) we can begin harming them. Frome there they should die in a day or two...
Unvote all
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I fear we will not learn much more about any of the possibilities of the scum's powers until we kill someone. I think we've had plenty of discussion in the last few days...
At this point I'd most like to kill either Shinnen or Viq... Something about the two of them makes me distrust them most.
Rofl irks me immensely. I've looked through his past games to see about his style and how it differs here and there. I've learned a little, and I thought he might be an alt (one of his games specifically named him such) and I'd like to know what his main account is. Feels a lot like he's playing out of his normal style because this is an alt, and that irks me even more. I'd like to kill him, but I'm not convinced he's scum yet, only that he is playing like this for reactions...
Xyl I am less sure about. I get a scummier feeling coming from him lately, but again I'm not sure if that is just because I don't like his playstyle or if there is something behind it. I think I could get behind his death if the consensus is there, but I am definitely not for championing that cause at this time.
Wishbone is more in a neutral area for me. He's coast a little bit too much for my liking... but that is how it is.
DGB is being DGB. She's been scum in like the last three games I've played with her. I'd appreciate it if someone with some eyes kept them on her.
ABR has been giving me nothing but townie vibes. I've played with him, a long time ago now, and his play style has certainly changed since then. Despite that, and despite him virtually leading the charge against me, I don't suspect him very much at this time. I'm more suspicious of some of the players coming to join him, such as Hoopla and Cybele in particular.
Nuwen has her share of good and bad posts, but again I haven't felt very many scummy vibes.
Pop is intriguing... On the one hand he's taking a forward place in many of the discussions, on the other hand he seems to be only doing that. He's made his little vote counts, commented on a few things, but nothing is really stick out to me... I could see pop going either way at this point.
I liked the Fonz's opening post, and sort of like his plan, although he has only a few posts to his credit so far.
Who is left...
Drench, Juls, q21, zwet, Tenchi
Actively lurking much? Not liking it. I'd appreciate a little more activity.
Giuseppe
VLA since confirmation, no game posts yet, ewe. Although when he returns is odd considering the previous game with the Sunday night rage points...
Seraphim
I seem to remember very little from Seraphim's posts. Odd, I remember him talking about Xyl because he was scum with in in MS3.
A few more posts have been made since then, can you care to elaborate a little further on your feelings of Xyl?
Xyl, can you give me some insight into Seraphim's playstyle?Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I'm sorry, but I'm really starting to get sick of your complete hate of the healing mechanic...The Fonz wrote:
The answer should be 'don't heal.' (Once we have dead scum, we might consider healing damage caused by said scum. And we need to heal Rofl after Shinnen is dead, as per the guidelines on 'lone wolf' attacks I set out earlier. But certainly not yet). Counterwagon.Xylthixlm wrote:
The answer is not "don't heal". The answer is "Every intent to heal cancels out an intent to hurt. Don't hurt someone unless you have more than enough intent to hurts to cancel out all the intent to heals. Don't heal someone unless you have more than enough intent to heals to cancel out all the intent to hurts."
Its like saying "Everyone has unlimited votes, but you're not allowed to unvote, that is not townie..."
As far as I'm concerned there are some situations where healing is inappropriate (when there is a defined wagon in particular), but there are some situations when healing is not just appropriate, but is the most pro-town thing to do.
Some of these situations include, but are not limited to: Once a set "lynch" is decided, some of the players should heal up players who are not the lynch target. We need to have the highest average health among the town as possible.
I agree, we don't know exactly how rage mechanics work, but that doesn't mean we just ignore how they have worked in the past. A good counter strategy to how rage mechanics worked in the past that does not do ANYTHING to the town is to keep a high average health. And that also means healing players who are both not current lynch targets and healing former lynch targets.
I am getting SICK of players just doing things their own way with no regard to the town at large.
The fact that you are SO against healing and so FOR having a low average town health shows a COMPLETE and utter disregard for pro-town play.
There are points for aggressiveness, but there is no reason for recklessness, and some players, not just you Fonz, are toeing that line way too willingly.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I was sorely tempted to use this cooldown to heal one other players with damage, but I'm not convinced about the two players with 3 damage last tally. 2 Damage isn't really a danger zone in my opinion though...
I'm going to wait for a Flay tally though and see if there was any secret damage before hurting Shinnen though.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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There is the possibility of secret damage, yes. That is what all the talk about rage points is about... -.-;DrippingGoofball wrote:
Secret damage? There's secret damage?Kinetic wrote:I'm going to wait for a Flay tally though and see if there was any secret damage before hurting Shinnen though.
I was asked by ABR to hurt Shinnen to test whether I was telling the truth about my inability to inflict damage.
Now it sounds like ABR set up a trap for me.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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populartajo wrote:So, Rolf and Shinnen are proven Seraphs?
Ok, this has happened before. If there is another Seraph in the game its time to claim now, since THERE HAS to be a Scum Seraph.
Hurt : Shinnen.Too soon. Flay
If nobody else claims and Shinnen comes up town (which I doubt but still possible) rolf has to be the next one to go.DrippingGoofball wrote:I'd rather heal copter, but here you go.
Hurt: ShinnenFlay, will you always make a note as such when someone's hurt or heal fails due you inability because of role (due to internal cooldowns)?Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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One of (DGB, Albert, Julz, q21, Seraphim)'s hurts didn't count.Albert B. Rampage wrote:Yup, DGB's hurt didn't count, as suspected.
Maybe... I was just thinking of something... what if Rage points could be used to Heal as well as Hurt???
Could someone be trying to frame someone?
Either way, because you hurt Shinnen, as well as three others, and flay doesn't specifically say which one doesn't work if it was a private action than any one of you could be it.
Ironically, the one person besides DGB that I suspect is you Albert. You've been mighty jumpy these last couple pages... could this be a gambit of your own?
I'd like DGB to claim whether she could have hurt or not, but I'd also like to know if this wasn't a game of shells you're trying to play here Albert...
PreviewEdit: Why is Xyl taking it as absolutely correct that Albert is right... There is no way Albert could know if he was right and the fact is Xyl, since he is cataloging all the hurts, should know that as well...Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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No, what I meant was that you crossed DGB's name off the damage count when I thought there was no proof that DGB's was definitely the one that didn't count...Xylthixlm wrote:Walt: I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone say they need to seemoreposts from me.
Kinetic: I need to make some reasonable assumptions about what's going on, or my counts will be full of disclaimers. I will generally assume that no funny business is going on unless the official damage count says otherwise. It's always possible that two lies/secret effects cancelled each other out. I'll add a disclaimer to the next count.
DGB: So, is there a reason you aren't going berserk with accusations of bussing?
It looks like I was wrong on that.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Wow I'm glad that you're thinking the four players with the highest activity are scummy. Obviously without your quick mind we'd be lost in the dark Viq.[/sarcasm]vIQleS wrote:I read something that made me think that Shinnen was more likely town then hoopla (who seems fairly neutral at the mo.) but I can't remember what it was. I need to do some more reading.
Scummy to me at the moment:
Xyl
Kenetic
Rofl
ABR
I'm thinking DGB is less scummy then my last post - although my reasoning here could be flawed...
Reading to be done, then post more. Then hurting. Possibly Shinnen, just to see the kill and hence results. Then examine the bandwagon...
And it is KINETIC, no E, I am not one of Barbie's plastic friends.
While I haven't by any stretch of the imagination cleared any of the people on your list, I'm at least looking at all the possibilities. Honestly, by this point in the game I'm tired of looking at the more active side. I've fenced directly with ABR, and indirectly with Xyl and Rofl. You, on the other hand, have pretty much tried to stay out of any arguments and have made bupkis but OMGUS and some mild pointing out of things you thought might help you...
Now reading you in isolation I'm more concrete about my suspicions of you.
First, since any case about you would be incomplete without the slip, I'll post it first to get it out of the way.
No qualifying statements, no approximately, no about, just a firm definitive number. You brought in some math to back you up, but the fact remains you were so perfect with the number, so quickly (your second post of the game) that it can't help but be suspicious...vIQleS wrote:Random anything at this point has a 75% chance of hitting town.
Anyway, you've already made your case why this isn't scummy, so I'll ask you not to reiterate it and focus on the other points I bring up, I'm just putting it here so that the entirety of your play is obvious.
Same post... but I hadn't realized you were in the last game... This piqued my interest because of something you tried to nail me on later in the game...vIQleS wrote:(Last game, it took a week before rage started to accumulate).
I later re-posted the role PM that was posted earlier... but it didn't hit me until I re-read you and realized you were SCUM in the last game...vIQleS wrote:
Did someone say that? Because I don't remember anyone else saying that... I'm going to bed - can someone check this please.Kinetic wrote: Assuming everything that is said about rage mechanics is true in this game, that means at most scum can only hold up to 3 rage points.
You knew this was true. Knew it without even needing to look it up... So I wondered, why on earth would you need someone to look it up for you?
The only thing I can think of was you were attempting to distance yourself from this knowledge and try and place some blame on me...
This is further enhanced by the fact that you now find such an interesting group of people scummy, myself included...
And now it begs the question:
Why haven't you hurt anyone yet viq?
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Nuwen, I know I sound like a broken record when I say this (and I feel like the only person who is saying it), but this whole rage mechanic could be a bluff. We don't know for sure yet if that is how it works in this game.
Everything in me is saying it would be odd to have the same exact hidden effect in two games. Maybe its a double bluff (they wouldn't possibly expect me to do the same thing), but either way I think everyone should be expecting the unexpected as well as preparing for the possibilities.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I did not say that.Nuwen wrote:
Every other mechanic has been identical, with the exception of Ophanim tracking time (72 hours here versus 48 hours in the mini). I'd rather humor the existence of rage and be cautious with non-wagon health totals than risk ignoring rage while it has the potential to exist.Kinetic wrote:Nuwen, I know I sound like a broken record when I say this (and I feel like the only person who is saying it), but this whole rage mechanic could be a bluff. We don't know for sure yet if that is how it works in this game.
Everything in me is saying it would be odd to have the same exact hidden effect in two games. Maybe its a double bluff (they wouldn't possibly expect me to do the same thing), but either way I think everyone should be expecting the unexpected as well as preparing for the possibilities.
What I said was this: Rage may be here, but it may not be. Don't only act as if it is the only way.
Play as if it is, it doesn't hurt us not to. At least not yet... (Ironically, just though of an interesting way it could... target player deals damage equal to the health of another player in the game.)
Anyway, I'm just saying be cautious and be prepared if the wind is really blowing the other way.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Might I suggest that anyone who has an open cooldown throw some heals around to anyone who is not Hoopla, Viq, or Wishbone?
Honestly I haven't looked too much into Hoopla, but others have and come back not liking what they see. Pretty much the same for Wishbone... I should read both deeper.
Either way, there are some other damage around and a little clean up could never hurt while we have a little bit of a downtime.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Why, I can tell you the list: Most likely it will include you, Xyl, maybe even Albert and me. Yay?roflcopter wrote:
shh... be a good scum and die without any more wifomHoopla wrote:Shinnen, before you die, if you're town, tell me who you think is guilty.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I don't think it confirms anyone honestly, and I don't think we should start thinking otherwise just yet.populartajo wrote:WOOT.
Heal : rolf.
This really puts viqles and some I need to reevaluate in a very bad position and confirms many players.
Albert and Fonz started the lynch, I felt I was the tipping point before people started piling on, and Rofl/Numen are both claimed Seraphim. That is all well and good, but there could very well be a second Seraphim scum (high likelihood? Probably not), but I'm not going to completely discount that chance.
Albert hurt another player in between his hurts on Shinnen (Could be a distancing hurt).
There is a good lot of information though, and that I'm glad about. I think its time to sift through it and find what sticks out.
All the better, I'm trusting my instincts and my read on Viq. I think he's scum. I plan on reading Hoopla and Wishbone, since they seem to be the other targets, but at this point I only support the Viq hurting. I'll look at the others when I get the chance. (Some time tomorrow most likely. Tests today have my primary attention)
I've been in more games where Day 1 was a townie forced mislynch then I care to mention. I'll take a scum down any day, especially a Seraphim. That could have been a hectic character in mid-late game (12 HP + 33% more damage per cooldown, no thanks). However if the scum do have two Seraphim, sacrificing one to give the other ones either "confirmation" or at the least the ability to blend in wouldn't be a bad strategy imho.DrippingGoofball wrote:
This is Day 1. When have bus'ing scumbags not dominated the Day 1 agenda?Kinetic wrote:There is the DGB we all know and love. I knew you couldn't last a day without yelling that everyone on a lynch was bussing.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Scum is dead. Who cares who gets the most credit on DAY 2. Back to scum hunting please. I suggest via. I'm on my iPhone so I can't bold but I placing an Intent to hurt on via.
And in response to rofl: you are only confirmed innocent in my book when the mod says you are. You get bonus points but I didn't get my rep by taking your word or omgus for it.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I'm dead tired (still haven't gone to sleep), but my cooldown isn't up for another couple hours. I don't think I'll be up then...
I'm still unsure about hoopla, but if he's that close to dead I'd just as soon finish him off to learn more about the rest of the town.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Flay please don't delete those posts. They are not identical.WaltWishbone wrote:Gah sorry, triple post...fricking comcast. Sorry all!
I would delete the first two of these posts of these (MR. Flay a lil help please? Can you please delte 1042, and 1043?) lol. My first two posts were hiccups. lol.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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The three posts in one post, for posterity's sake in case Fla does delete two of them.WaltWishbone wrote:We are not playing Survivor, the idea of the game is not to last, it is to kill scum...even if you die and out town, you still WIN! Do not ask advice just hurt or heal someone.
We are not playing Survivor, the idea of the game is not to last, it is to kill scum (we only have 4 left)...even if you die and are town, you still WIN! Do not ask advice just hurt or heal someone or do nothing.
We are not playing Survivor, the idea of the game is not to last, it is to kill scum (we only have 4 to 5 left)...even if you die and are town, you still WIN if all scum die! Do not ask advice just hurt or heal someone or do nothing. I do have the most damage at the moment, so please feel free to hurt me if you think I am scum!Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Whoa Bullshit? I've been catching up, but this is the biggest load of bullshit that I've read yet.Xylthixlm wrote:You know, just before I answered roflcopter's post, I was thinking about how hard Shinnen_no_Me had fought against concentrating fire. I remembered that some other people had taken the same stance... and lo, one of them is Kinetic.
I supported SPREADING OUT DAMAGE day 1. Really. That is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I supported.
Hell, quoted in your OWN POST TO NAIL ME TO THIS is the opposite of this....
By making sure we are NOT SPREADING DAMAGE!!!! READ THAT AGAIN. IT IS the DIRECT opposite of your claim against me. I don't even need to go back and re-read myself to find what I know is obvious and prove it. You've done it for me.Kinetic wrote:By making sure we're not spreading damage we can make it so rage dumps are few and far between. [...]
I'm starting to think the rest of this wagon might be bullshit too.
----
As for Fonz: You're trying to nail hypocrisy to me. Not so much. You're comparing early day one mind frame against my current mind frame. Some things have changed in my mind since then. I used to hate macaroni and cheese when I was 11, now I love it.
Is it hypocrisy that my thoughts and feelings have changed and evolved over time to something else? If I made a dramatic change, that might be hypocrisy, but that isn't how it is.
Plus, my feelings haven't changed as drastically as you've indicated.
I've been pushing for Viq for a while. My scumdar has pretty much locked in on him. I looked over the list of people who were "already hurt", and I found Viq scummier than all of them. I have said this multiple times, since 'Day 1'. I still find him enormously scummy.The Fonz wrote:We have had two players today hurt a previously injured player with no support. Kinetic and Zwet. Kinetic looks like an enormous hypocrite to me for this, since Kinetic is second only to Tajo in counselling about the dangers of 'just hurting who you think is scum.' I want to know why Tajo, if he really is opposed to 'random damage' is ignoring this.
The fact is though, that on and off I've had support from other players for this, but it has wavered a little bit. It got to the point where I felt that the scumdar of certain players (rofl, yourself, ABR) I felt might not be as strong as the three of you are feeling.
Don't forget, I was on the Shinnen lynched very early, and it wasn't until my hurt that it became a landslide to lynch, and pushed it with all of you, just as much, if not more. You all took enormous credit for the lynch, but for the most part I stepped back and started looking for another scum. You all locked onto Hoopla and quick-lynched him. I didn't step in and say anything because I wasn't sure on Hoopla.
If he came up scum, I would have thought one of two things. Either A) You three were REALLY on your games, and I'd be watching. or B) One or more of you are scum lynching buddies for town cred.
Since he came up town I think one of two things has happened, either A) You're town and just in the euphoria of a good lynch you trusted your instincts too much and over extended, or B) One or more of you is scum and are thinking since you've lynched a scum you have enough cred to push through a couple mislynches and not have to worry about how it makes you look.
Based on the way ALL THREE of you reacted after the Shinnen lynch, since the Hoopla lynch I have felt maybe one of you could be scum. I'm still unsure though. DGB had brought up some interesting points on ABR, but at the same time this is not the DGB I'm used to seeing. The problem with that is most games I've played with DGB have been when she is scum. So seeing a different side of her may indicate townie-ness...
Another thing I have noticed about town lead mis-lynches, they don't give very much information. The less people who hurt someone, the more the scum can hide away from mis-lynches. Hell, Hoopla was killed before I even cool downed from my last hurt on Shinnen. That was quick.
Anyway, I still intend to continue against Viq. It is important to me to see if my own scumdar is off or not right now.
I'm sure if Viq will come up scum some people will say it is a bus (maybe that is what this is setting up for now). I'm sure if viq comes up town I'm going to be pushed toward lynch (maybe that is what is being set up now).
I don't know what the case against me is coming from and why it is being picked up like it is. But I am town and I know tha I feel ViQ is scum. So before I'm killed I'm going to push for his death.
Bleh this is a long post, and I've had a difficult last day or two, so I'm sure I should re-read this and edit it, but I'm too damn tired.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Umm, no I didn't... I never posted why I said your post was scummy. The reason I had issue with it was not because you advocated for few players to be targeted, but because you were also against the voting mechanism to choose those players as well.Xylthixlm wrote:
Yes, I left it in because you contradicted yourself. You said we should concentrate damage, then called my post scummy for saying so.Kinetic wrote:Hell, quoted in your OWN POST TO NAIL ME TO THIS is the opposite of this....
Basically you were for the first players who harmed anyone to lead the lynches, because once X number of players were harmed you were for making sure they would die before anyone else was harmed.
I had issue with your post because it gave no alternatives.
Assume the situation: Player A, Player B, and You have 5 damage, no one else have any damage on them. You feel that player A and player B are town, and you know yourself is town (in this hypothetical situation, I don't exactly feel you are town right now). By YOUR logic in that post you felt that yourself, player A, and Player B must be killed before any scummy player is harmed.
That's why I had issue, and its a HUGE strawman to say I had issue with your post only because you advocated concentrated fire when I have PUSHED for consensus lynches the WHOLE GAME. My issue was not WHAT you advocated, but HOW you advocated and what your plan entailed.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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No you weren't. And no it isn't. And even if it was, I don't agree with your assessment of the current situation.Xylthixlm wrote:Except that what I was advocating isexactly what we're doing now. It doesn't seem to be working so badly.
The town is being bullrushed by four players (you, ABR, Fonz, and Rofl), and honestly you guys have had limited success, and what success your group has is questionable. You're going around acting confirmed, when none of you are, and quashing anyone who stands up against you as scummy and the next person on your list to kill.
As it stands, two of the four players with damage (Julz, Drench) were personally attacked by you first, and the third (Walt) has your pushing for more damage. The only person with no damage by you, and with little help from your group is Zwet.
I'm sorry, but this doesn't fly with me. Too much power in the hands a of SMALL group of players is not how I play. I do want more consensus, ESPECIALLY on mislynches.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Not to mention, Xyl, that the plan that Fonz created and that you support, is one that is inherently better for scum than town.
i.e. Scum can get one of their buddies to support them on the first hurt, once they have that original support, and the player is below normal health, by your plan they need to then die.
You're making the PERFECT set up for scum to set up mislynches with little to no accountability.
Yet, on the FIRST lynch, You, Fonz, Rofl, and ABR danced and claimed responsibly for killing Shinnen like it was all you guys.
I'd like everyone to read that lynch again, read the pages, who was the turning point in that lynch? After which hurt did the town finally jump on board and start mass hurting him?
I'll give you a hint, before my hurt two players had MORE damage on them then Shinnen:
I damaged Shinnen after this post. Hoopla and Wishbone had more damage on them and Rofl and Zwet both had equal damage. Out of those five I chose to hurt Shinnen and tipped the scales toward his death.Mr. Flay wrote:Colors help?
Where were you and your merry gang??
# Shinnen_no_Me - Hurt by: Albert B. Rampage, The Fonz, Kinetic, DrippingGoofball? (3) Healed by: Seraphim (1)
# WaltWishbone - Hurt by: DrippingGoofball, Xylthixlm, Nuwen, Xylthixlm (4) Healed by: vIQleS (1)
# Hoopla - Hurt by: Albert B. Rampage, roflcopter x2 (3) Healed by: (0)
Between 9 am March 23 and 10 PM March 23, three players hurt Shinnen:
They were:Mr. Flay wrote:
Albert B. Rampage, Seraphim, q21
Albert jumps RIGHT back to Shinnen once he becomes a viable lynch. I'm starting to suspect Albert's original hurt on Shinnen was a distancing, and when his scum buddy was a very highly viable lynch, he jumped on the bus.
You jump on Shinnen near the end with Julz:
Juls, Xylthixlm
And the whole thing is finalized:
Nuwen x2, The Fonz, Rofl x2
Rofl actually over damaged if he is indeed a Seraphim, which is ironic, but w/e.
------
Anyway, after this all, you want to know my scumlist:
Viq, ABR, Xyl, Julz
You four are the highest.
I'm waiting for the Walt kill to come through, most likely you three will kill him before anything else can happen. Depending on what he flips will show how I feel.
Honorable mentions: Rofl, for being too aggressive, but right now he's low on my possible scum list.
As for the Fonz, despite being in your group, in my re-read I found him the LEAST scummy of the group, although I'm starting to feel that he could be scum.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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I'm going to ask for this:
If players think I am town of equal weight as Julz, Rofl, or Albert think I am scum, or if you feel more likely that Julz, Rofl, or Albert is scum and I am town, please Heal me.
We do need to use this heal mechanism and we cannot be afraid to use it. Yes, it may increase the time for lynches, but it will also stop scummy players from taking over the game.
The only way we're going to force a consensus with players who are being so aggressive they won't listen to reason is when people who wish to harm someone outnumber the players who wish to heal someone.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Supported?
Three players are pushing for it.
More than 3 players have called me town or claim very highly that they think I'm town.
If more players think I'm town than think I'm scum, they should have a say. The current rules give them no recourse.
Right now 3 players, any three players, can kill someone with no recourse.
Interestingly, that seems like a great way to let scum win.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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lol. DGB why have you not won funniest player award?DrippingGoofball wrote:
Yes, but doctor, it's much worse. Like Wile E. Coyote wants to do with the Road Runner, I don't want to kill her for food, I want to blow her up into unrecognizable subatomic particles.Kinetic wrote:
At this point, and considering its you, I'd say its par for the course.DrippingGoofball wrote:I want to strangle Juls. Is that normal?Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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lol.vIQleS wrote:Hmm - I thought I posted but it doesn't seem to have gone through.
hurt:walt. Lets get that out of the way, and then we can kill juls or X.
I just thought of something:
Anyone who hurts Walt at this point, including any of our other claimed Seraphim, can no longer claim to be town confirmed or believe that our claimed Seraphim, namely rofl or nuwen, are town confirmed.
By hurting Walt you consent to the possibility that Seraphim can still be scum even though we've killed one that was scum. Thus, there is no way you can use the fact that Rofl or Nuwen are Seraphim as a reason for them being town again.
And thus, any Seraphim who later claim to be Seraphim who are hiding now, if they hurt Walt after this point, they are just was well claiming there could be scum Seraphim still alive...
You must argue on the merits of their play, and not their role to confirm them at this point.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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The reason I'm suggesting it is because some players (ABR, Julz, Rofl) have skipped the "finish off phase" and have gone directly to begin killing me.Nuwen wrote:Wishbone's claim complicates my setup predictions. 2 town Seraphim: 2 scum Seraphim makes quite a bit of sense - if Walt flips scum and his Seraph claim is correct, I wouldn't be surprised. The mini mainted a 1:1 ratio. However, if he does flip town, I'm split between going after Rofl or just proceeding down the laundry list of scummy players (Juls next). The mini's setup used 2 town Ophanim and zero scum, so it's plausible that there's uneven role distribution between the two alignments (3 town to 1 scum Seraphim).
From a scum perspective, it doesn't make sense for Walt to push confirmed town status for Rolf as me, unless he's partners with one of us (Rofl, from my vantage). However, I really doubt the existence of 3 scum Seraphim to 1 town Seraph.
Either way, I don't know if the Seraph role can still be used as town confirmation.
I don't endorse healing of any kind until we figure out what to do with Walt and we move from the killing phase back into the post-kill discussion phase.
The fact that Walt's flip doesn't even matter to them after they pushed him so far is very very, well annoying for one, and scummy for another.Large Theme List Mod Emeritus
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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Kinetic Mafia Scum
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