Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Grimgroove]

Got very close to forgetting about this game.
Catching up tomorrow!

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Malakittens

For suresies.

I also think one of mollie/Arcangel is scum, but not both.

I have no townreads yet, which is peculiar.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, I'm sorry that I used my vote on Penguin_Alien instead of you. I chose to sort her out first before I even decide to touch you.

I see a vote on penguin_alien, but I don't see any of that "sorting out"-business you're talking about.
Do you think I voted you because you didn't vote me? Because that's definitely not it.

[Grimgroove]

Not going to do a detailed catch-up this time round, but not liking Nachomamma8 either and this is why:

Why with whiskers specifically, nacho?

Is this a real question?

was the first thing I read in this topic that had scum-stink all over it.

What purpose did nacho's question serve here?

[Grimgroove]

And the reason why I said what I said about mollie and ArcAngel:

also townread on arc

And Mollie, you're right. I am super town baby!! And i already figured out yours too.. Lets just get scum soon then

This feels extremely off. They're not scum together because I don't think they'd do that out in the open like that, but one of them is buddying. I'm not sure yet which of the two, but not buying those townreads for a bit.
Or maybe they're both reaction-testing. But keeping an eye on them and how they treat each other.

And what I disliked about Malakittens primarily was this, right after that:

Just read up.

Seeing Mollie as town which is my first town read. Gut town feeling on ArcAngel.

Which doesn't read like a genuine townread but a tactical decision to join a block that looks like it has the chances of being considered a town-block. It screams "Hey girls, let me join your town-club!".

[Grimgroove]

And I think Malakittens' first post in general is pretty bad.

A vote that has the resemblance of an RVS, despite having initial reads and impressions. Doesn't add up.
The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...
The Wisdom and MattP portion is the only thing that comes close to calling out possible scum,b ut she stalls, both in explanation as well as in voting.

Just read up.

Seeing Mollie as town which is my first town read. Gut town feeling on ArcAngel.

Unsure on Wisdom, I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

Whiskers I have played with before, but I want to check something on meta as I haven't played with him in a while.

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

VOTE: Penguin_Alien

I like my vote there for now.^

What is it from Whisker's meta you want to check?

[Grimgroove]

Not liking Malakittens' defense against Wisdom either. It's got a big whiff of AtE around it.

[Grimgroove]

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

Explain how he's being defensive. I don't see it.

Why ask me and not the other two who have said it before me?

And this I disliked for the same reason I disliked Nachomamma's post 39 which I mentioned earlier.

[Grimgroove]

Right now my leaning scum read and biggest one is Peng.

What is it about Penguin Alien's two (!!) posts that's so scummy?
Do you have a history of games with her where you can show me that lack of acitivty during the start of the game means penguin = scum, and where the opposite happened when penguin = town?

[Grimgroove]

I have a decent way of reading pen. The more she doesn't post the more of a chance she's scum. So yes my vote was to bait her into posting (which worked the first time)

It's not the lack of activity that's making me lean scum on her. It's the fact she appeared right after I voted for her that makes me really lean scum on her.

Hmm, it's not what you said before.

I want to see how your 1v1 with Penguin plays out when she gets here. But I don't see you initializing the conversation with her. Apart from that empty vote and a tongue-in-cheek comment that you'll leave that vote there I haven't seen any concrete effort from your side to spur Penguin into action.

[Grimgroove]

I don't understand the penguin-votes from the previous page.

Townreads are coming in. shos is not one of them.

[Grimgroove]

I like the visual aspect of the pictures you post, especially seeing my avatar in a little circle has a strangely appealing effect.

But it doesn't make interacting with you, or about you, easy so I'd prefer a shift to more normal modes of communication.

[Grimgroove]

He's doing a catchup that looks good. And I know, Information over analysis, and I also know, that a catchup is really easy to make look good. But I'm not really reading anything into it more than gut right now.

Just seems to me that, Town outnumber scum (although, now that I think about it, we don't know that. But still, it's assumed), so I'm doing a more of an "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Or maybe, "Neutral until suggested otherwise." You say shos is scum, I'm not really sure why.
Those three players, in fact, look just fine to me-- null, meaning "Don't lynch them." Mirai is my least-favourite of the group, but if I recall correctly, that can be blamed on OMGUS.

This is a null tell for Shos as I have seen town and scum Shos do it, but he feels off this game

especially with him bitching about me having early town reads. In past games he's never been grouchy about it as town, but this game he seems to have a big problem with it

Mala, Mala, Mala, you really are scum here, aren't you?
That argument is bad. There's nothing remotely special about that kind of bitching. Even if he didn't do it before (as if you'd remember something like him NOT doing something like that before), it's not as crucial as you make it out to be. Maybe he learned a thing or two in the meanwhile, leading him to be suspicious of early townreads? MAybe it's the nature of your particular townreads that don't sit well with him? Maybe, maybe, maybe, so many possible explanations. Yet you focus on one and turn it into a crucial "argument".

Wisdom: Why did you drop the Mala-scum idea?

I for one am not liking the meta-push on penguin. I've played with town-penguin before and I see no difference and the examples that have been brought up are either completely irrelevant or have wide interpretation-potential.

I'm not liking MattP as town much either.
My partial agreement with shos' readslist (don't see the Mirari-scum though) makes me read him as town even moreso, though his catch-ups reminded me heavily of shos-town already (so this is not simply an OMGUR).

[Grimgroove]

That was earlier when I didn't like his first catch-up, especially him asking me to explain something I already had explained, which gave me the impression he was pretending to follow. I didn't realize he was slowly going through the topic from the beginning and hadn't read myexplanation yet. Now I've got a slight townread on him, liked his latest catch-ups and reads.

Can you put under words what it is about penguin exactly that's so different?

[Grimgroove]

What is it you like about shos? Have you played with him before?

I've played with him before yes.
What I like about shos in his catch-up is that he seems to be noticing the same things I do, without actually sheeping anyone. He's got a line of reasoning of his own. I've only seen him play as town though. He was scum in one game that I was in, but he could play easily according to his townmeta because there were several scumfactions, so he could scuimhunt like he normally would. That leads me to believe I haven't really seen his scumplay, but from what I've seen here I see no reason to believe that's what I'm looking at. I see the same town-shos I've seen before: half of his ISO are catch-ups, some arguments seem less relevant, some questions he asks already have been answered, but whenr eading it I see someone trying to figure things out and move things forward, without any bias and with lots of transparency.
I'll try to provide a concrete example of this using one of his catch-ups if you insist, but that's the gist of it.

[Grimgroove]

What is it you like about shos? Have you played with him before?

I've played with him before yes.
What I like about shos in his catch-up is that he seems to be noticing the same things I do, without actually sheeping anyone. He's got a line of reasoning of his own. I've only seen him play as town though. He was scum in one game that I was in, but he could play easily according to his townmeta because there were several scumfactions, so he could scuimhunt like he normally would.

That leads me to believe I haven't really seen his scumplay, but from what I've seen here I see no reason to believe that's what I'm looking at.

I see the same town-shos I've seen before: half of his ISO are catch-ups, some arguments seem less relevant, some questions he asks already have been answered, but whenr eading it I see someone trying to figure things out and move things forward, without any bias and with lots of transparency.
I'll try to provide a concrete example of this using one of his catch-ups if you insist, but that's the gist of it.

[Grimgroove]

I'll check out those links.

[Grimgroove]

She's distant from the game, comments only on specific things that could earn her some cred, doesn't get engaged in the more important discussions.

I also think she would have been defending herself a little, especially with someone who knows her (mala) stating a confident scumread on her.

Same goes for my scumread on her; I caught her in our last encounter, so I'd expect a "you're wrong this time" kind of post.

Her claim that she expected ooba to vote nacho doesn't make sense either, and I do think she makes more sense as town.

My two cents:
The thing in italics I've seen PA do before as town.
The thing in bold is a stretch, I never read Malakittens' read as a confident scumread, given it was exclaimed after only two posts by PA. PA herself acknowledged considering that an RVS earlier on.
The thing I underlined would require town-PA to behave entirely according to certain expectations you have of her, which is understandable but I think this expectation was a bit too specific in order for it to be reasonable, let alone be an argument for PA-scum.

I've had to deal with certain expectations people have of me as well, and often found that it's the expectations themselves that were misguided in the first place.

The one thing that does bug me about PA is the lack of voting.

A lot has got to do with the bad impression Malakittens left on me from the start, and I haven't seen her do anything to shake that off. The fact she's pushing the PA-case makes me lose faith in it from the get-go.

[Grimgroove]

It seems unreasonable to me; you've only seen town-shos, which means you don't know what scum-shos looks like. Why is your stance "That's town-shos" instead of "It kinda looks like town-shos, but since I haven't seen scum-shos, maybe it could be scum-shos"?

At first sight the links you showed do show the same shos I've seen as town. I'm not going to go into the details of that game and try to figure out which arguments he made in that catch-up are scummy, but that's obviously the essential part. Big catch-ups are the form and obviously null, but it's what is contained in them that should give you an idea (I hope) of what his alignment is.
I'll get that concrete example of a shos-wall in this game that I liked and state reasons why. Should give you something to work with.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, that's definitely weird. Since when do you shoot down my scumreads like this?

If you're going to use meta, please use it well.
Legends of the Hidden Temple ring a bell?
Mainstream Mafia maybe?

[Grimgroove]

I showed you you have shos as town for reasons that are completely null and you respond with "I'll show you shos catching up as town".
wtf? Did you even get my point? I KNOW he does it as town too, that's what I'm telling you, he does it as BOTH.
I have no need for you to show me that.

I got your point. The point is that you didn't get my point.
My point is that shos' STYLE of catching up is obviously null, but that the CONTENT of said catch-ups probably aren't.
What I further said was that I am in no position to review shos' CONTENT in that other game as it would require too much effort. The only thing I could discern was the STYLE being the same.
What I proposed to do was show you why I liked the CONTENT of shos' posts here.

[Grimgroove]

Here we go again

[Grimgroove]

In those games you DISCUSSED reads with me, you weren't all "no your reads are wrong because this this and this".

"no your reads are wrong because this this and this" = discussion
It's the exact same thing that has happened before.

I said "okay, he clearly does not know shos and penguin enough, thats why he doesnt see what I see" but clearly you don't care to see what I see, you just want to keep saying that they have to be town at all costs, being unreasonable in the process.

I simply provided reasons for my disagreement over your reads. You haven't even addressed them (not at all in PA's case, and you missed the point in shos' case). And you're calling me unreasonable?

You're not the town-Grim I know.

You're definitely the Wisdom-town I know. Hissyfits and jumping to conclusions.

I am NOT getting into a wall-war with you again, precisely for that reason. Someone else will have to talk sense into you.

[Grimgroove]

Lies Grim.

Specify !
Spicify !

[Grimgroove]

Gah, you disagree with a universal scumread and this is what you get.

Is MattP always this confident about his reads?

I've played with him before once but something tells me he wasn't being his MAttP self there. He's definitely not behaving like he was during the sunny days, which in this case would hint at him being town but I'm not sold.

The close to universal townread on Malakittens is also beyond me.

393 and 394 read like a bad joke. Especially after 336 and later. And 222.

shos' latest buddying and agreeing with everything I say doesn't feel too good. Too over the top to still be genuine.

I'll get to the defending myself tomorrow. How I hate that part of the game.

[Grimgroove]

shos' latest buddying and agreeing with everything I say doesn't feel too good. Too over the top to still be genuine.

Interesting, so you're dropping your shos townread now.

Yes.

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom has the awful habit of scumreading whoever disagrees with him. To his benefit, it's also his biggest towntell.

Loved 438. This is someone I'll be able to talk to.

[Grimgroove]

Can you go over the things that made you drop your scumread on Malakittens? I'm obviously missing something.

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to do ISO's on everyone tomorrow, Friday at the latest. I didn't get a grasp on this game yet and this is the only way to get it.

Some preliminary reads based oin the glances I've managed to throw:

I can buy the MattP-Wisdom townblock, MAttP's stance towards me was the most pro-town attack I've ever had the pleasure of enduring, and Wisdom is playing the towngame I've seena t least three times before (but also here I have to say I've never seen his scumgame). I'm just hoping they won't let that townblock-status get to their head and make them assume that their reads are necessarily correct. Sorry if this sounds spiteful, but I know how Wisdom gets sometimes. Chances are I'm going to disagree with you, and if you are going to vote me over that, things will turn sour very quickly.

mollie feels too nice and too fluffy. Either she's ovulating or she's scum.

Arcangel's lack of care for not being caught up with the topic doesn't sit right with me. This game is moving like hell and her joyful intermezzo of "catching up later" doesn't seem like something town who wants to find scum would say.

shos lost his townread. He shouldn't have put his agreements and admiration for me in all caps. Even though I stil lstand by my Mala-scumread very very much, I don't feel I've presented a case yet that deserves such praise.

I feel Desperado is the person I can relate to the most somehow, not necessarily when it comes to reads (still need to develop those myself), but I like his approach. And he reminds me of his town-meta. Yes, again, I must admit I haven't seen him as scum yet, but that doesn't stop me from him reminding me of his townplay.

Liking Mirari and ooba for similar reasons when it comes to their approach and reasoning behind reads. Got no meta on them.

I don't know Nachomamma really well, was in only one game with him where he got killed in Night 1, after having played a fairly low-profile Day 1. He's obviously got a great reputation as a scumhunter, but so far he hasn't lived up to his name. He could be playing it low-key again I guess. Someone who should be evaluated later but who's not a Day 1 lynch for the same reasons MattP so flatteringly gave me a Day 1-pass.

penguin_alien, dissappeared? At least she didn't stand out. Not something that concerns me right now.

I'm hoping to make more detailed cases later. Whiskers (no idea at all yet about this one) and shos will be the first people I'll be looking into since they are the main topics of debate but expect me to push my Malakittens-scumread some more as well.

[Grimgroove]

I've seen her do it as town, the chair-thing anyway, but her presence here is rather underwhelming.

[Grimgroove]

shos' ISO is a real headache to wade through. Your catch-up posts would be far more user-friendly if you'd simply put your post-references in 'tags.

In any case, the thing that completely turned me around with my read on him is [post]386, and the only thing I feel capable of pulling conclusions from right now. All his reaction-testing shit with Wisdom is simply too confusing for my tired old head. I also don't want to read too much into the heated debates Wisdom sometimes gets entangled in, I remember being part of that up to a point where people were forced to take sides in a TvT-discussion. Stubborn Wisdom sometimes does get scummy when he's stuck in a tunnel, so I can imagine shos having a perfectly reasonable and understandable scumread on Wisdom from his POV. All this explanation to say that even though I've got Wisdom in my strong townpile, I don't hold shos' scumread on him against him.

But post [386[/post] I can say is bad, because he's taking up my defense in the last paragraph by simply repeating what I had already said. There is absolutely no added value in it, not from anybody's perspective. Except for his own. He had already expressed his strong townread on me, so I'm his buddy candidate. The fact that really got to me was his profession of loving me in all caps. This was after I simply referenced to the MAfia Under The Sea game. I cans ee how he has fond memories of that, but seriously, what the hell did I say to deserve this OMG GRIM I LOVE U SO MUCH <3 ??

It really does feel like buddying as he's hoping to cement my townread on him in such a way I'd jump to his defense.

I've tried plowing through his catch-up walls, but I fear my initial good impression of them was almost entirely based on him agreeing with my case on Malakittens (whichI'll get to later) and his townread on me. I have come to expect the latter from him since I know he knows me as town, hence it rubbed me the right way.

So yeah shos, talk to me. Why all the love?

[Grimgroove]

^^ funny how my advice of making posts more user-friendly ended up making my own post less user friendly

386 is the post I was talking about.

[Grimgroove]

Normally I'm one of the top posters and here I'm literally drowning in a sea of 1v1's

I've tried ISO'ing Whiskers but didn't get much out of that. I do have the impression that amidst all his aggression there are arguments there that do hold some water. A slight townvibe is all I got, but I see little room to work with him if he keeps it up. I'm disliking the personal attacks on mollie, but I'm disliking mollie's focus on them even more. mollie has been focussing on his statement that he "hates her" far too long for my liking. And even in her latest outburst on page 30 she just doesn't seem as fire-y as I know her.

I'm going to ISO Malakittens and Nachomamma next. I might end up sheeping Desperado or MattP if I don't get anything out of those ISO's.

I also need more people to interact with me. I've seen nachomamma ask me question which I'll address later. I want more. Tell me what's essential right now. Ask me stuff. Any thoughts on the reads I gave earlier?

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to ISO Malakittens and Nachomamma next. I might end up sheeping Desperado or MattP if I don't get anything out of those ISO's.

What happened to your confident scumread on Mala?

The confidence is gone due to all the disagreement I've seen over it.
The read itself is still very much intact, at least until I do the ISO.

[Grimgroove]

I also liked shos' last wall. Minus the girlfriend-bit (:mad: Who is she? )

[Grimgroove]

mollie feels too nice and too fluffy. Either she's ovulating or she's scum.

What do you think of her push on Whiskers?

Upon ISO'ing mollie:
Too emotional to sheep, but genuine enough not to scumread her for it.

I prefer her push on Whiskers over yours on shos actually.

[Grimgroove]

I also liked shos' last wall. Minus the girlfriend-bit (:mad: Who is she? )

not even a little bit surprised.

What's this? A scummy snipe?
Expand on this please. Why were you not surprised?

[Grimgroove]

I prefer her push on Whiskers over yours on shos actually.

Do you think shos is town?

I think my read on shos right now is pretty obvious without having to ask this question. I liked his wall and said I did. Have you ever seen an instance where a likeable wall did not result in a townread?

[Grimgroove]

Nachomamma has been whiteknighting Malakittens.

Discuss.

Nachomamma has been the most subtle in trying to move votes to the shos wagon.

Discuss.

VOTE: Nachomamma

Discuss.

@Nachomamma: I liked shos' wall because everything in it made sense.
Why are you acting surprised about people liking it?

[Grimgroove]

I choose Nacho as my new mason buddy!

pedit: Grimgroove

shht, be still for a moment.

[Grimgroove]

Nachomamma has been whiteknighting Malakittens.

Discuss.

True!

I'm a bit high right now so I'm not going to post too much, as I have proven to be a nuissance under these circumstances before on this forum.

Anyway, yes, that's true. Apparently the term "whiteknighting" isn't as incriminating as I thought, but my reasons for saying he is are.

I'll get into more detail later but it revolves around Nachomomma townreading and cross-defending Malakittens for no good reasons.
It also revolves around my scumread on Mala, which put me in a position of being more critical of Nacho's arguments, and I just couldn't help but notice their weakness. The scumread on Malla will ironically enough probably be wrong, but still, it got me Nacho in an indirect way.

Nachomamma has been the most subtle in trying to move votes to the shos wagon.

Discuss.

I'm not being very subtle at the moment.

The wagon is crumbling in such a pace that "subtle" wouldn't cut it anymore.
Though I guess you could just switch to another wagon and do it the subtle way again.
Hmm.
Yes, this actually gets you townpoints. Good call.
But admit you were being more subtle before!

@Nachomamma: I liked shos' wall because everything in it made sense.
Why are you acting surprised about people liking it?

I didn't like it very much. People keep saying that they like it. People have a tendency to townread big walls because :effort: is generally very protown and it feels shitty to lynch someone who is putting a lot of time and effort into the game. I am trying to get more people to talk about the content instead of vague approvals because I think the content is pretty weak.

Yet in your own answer you are not talking about the content. I just asked you what you think about it, and all you can say "content-wise" is: you didn't like it very much. Well, wow! Bravo! You should become a book critic.
I just said I found that everything in shos' wall makes sense, from Town POV.
The burden of proof is on you, to show me where it doesn't make sense.

[Grimgroove]

But you should

[Grimgroove]

... wtf is that, Nacho? Why are you playing like this?

It's amazing how one single statement can be enough to turn someone into a conftown read.
They are rare, but they exist.

If you hold your breath, and read very carefully, you'll see a gentle specimen sitting overthere in the North. It's gentle grazing in the meadow, so do not disturb it. Respect it, at a distance.


And if you shoot it I'LL HUNT YOU! I'll hunt you down like the sick animal you are!!!

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom is conftown as of 841

[Grimgroove]

Hmm. No, maybe I've been rushing to conclusions.

Sorry!

[Grimgroove]

[Grimgroove]

Now that was hilarious, frankly speaking

[Grimgroove]

I continue to reach out to me

That's some kinky stuff right there.

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom, why are you trying to make Grim out to be scum?

I'm trying to read him.

Sucks to have only one scumread, doesn't it?

Wisdom didn't make me out to be scum as far as I can recall. And I'd think I'd recall such a thing Where did he do that?

And what did you mean with your sad face in post 826?

I think your rethorical question is more of the likes of "trying to make someone out to be scum", in this case Wisdom.

[Grimgroove]

If Mala is scum and did the "I'm going to replace if you tunnel me" thing to Wisdom at the beginning of the game I'm going to never join another game with her

I don't buy this. Not from you Matt. Not from the Matt I've seen.

This is a fake scum vs scum statement.

Matt is scum.
MAla is scum.

I'm serious.
I'm high, but I'm serious.

[Grimgroove]

This is a good game, btw. Scum are playing well, really every player sans Penguin is doing a damn good job of appearing town. Simultaneously, town are for the most part remaining calm and letting things take as much time as they need rather than falling apart. I like this.

Nice first game back

.

THAT'S A LIE!!
You were in Normalville! The SunnyDays!

Why are you lying about this?

[Grimgroove]

Mala, join the circus and tell me what you think of the quote below:

If Mala is scum and did the "I'm going to replace if you tunnel me" thing to Wisdom at the beginning of the game I'm going to never join another game with her

[Grimgroove]

Don't forget to pass by Room 876 MattP and MAlakittens. I know it's scary but you have to face your demons, just like the little kid on his tricycle.

[Grimgroove]

@ Nachomamma:

Your Malakittens townread is crap. But you're probably town. Wrong, but town.

I had it reversed earlier. You're not using Malakittens to look good after her townlynch. Malakittens is using you as a shield and you are letting her. Why?
That last part of 896 is horrible. The spotlight-thing. Really horrible.

[Grimgroove]

@Grim: Face my demons? You missed a post that you based the majority of your case on not existing (that is, Wisdom having called you scum)I pointed out the post, and I explained everything in your large posts directed at me. I also pointed out I wasn't lying about going on a break

Yes, that is all very good, but I was referring to room 876 and obviously was not talking about the stuff that has been rendered irrelevant thanks to your briljant replies.

But you're not talking yourself out of that slip with Mala. Because you didn't use logic in that one. You used a play on emotions and I caught it. You're good at using logic against people, but you're lacking in the emo-use department.

I KNOW you wouldn't make a threat like that and I KNOW MAlakittens would not ignore such a threat unless it came from a scumpartner.

[Grimgroove]

Even thought that's not what she's doing but w/e.

You jsut answered "nothing" to Wisdom's question what else she was doing apart from tunneling penguin.
And now this?

You're not adding up, but I can't see you scum. Are you in love with Malakittens or something?

[Grimgroove]

Maybe I shouldn't be in this status when on MS. It almost feels as if I'm cheating

[Grimgroove]

Would you like me to actually waste my time and effort searching for and providing examples in prior games where I said something to that effect?

Yes.
But even then.
Earlier you said you were a changed man. I think it was somewhere during RVS? Let me fetch it.

[Grimgroove]

Pirate mollie, I was annoyed with the way you treated me in mykos game. However I'm going to be much more calm and rational this game than I've been before. I think taking a break from games was good.

See?
How useful is your pre-break meta under these circumstances?

[Grimgroove]

Now I'm "gamebreaking". Think whatever you want gangster.

What do you mean, gamebreaking?

[Grimgroove]

You're not going to replace out, are you? I didn't mean to be mean

[Grimgroove]

Apologies.

[Grimgroove]

Why can you not see him as scum?

I don't remember exactly I can actually see him as scum.

Here's the things I see:

Malakittens is acting scummy.
Nachomamma is defending Malakittens, almost moreso than Malakittens defends herself.

Here's the list of possible conclusions:

Nachomamma and Malakittens are scum together. This looks unlikely, because I don't see why someone like Nachomamma would implicate himself like that by protecting his scumbuddy. Then again, he might be just the person to take the WIFOM one step further.

Nachomamma is misguided town and Malakittens is scum. That's what I was thinking when posting I couldn't see him as scum. Somehow my status had an effect on me where every thought I had in my head became truth awfully quickly, and that's the thought I had at that time. When trying to come up with a reason as to why Nachomamma could be so misguided, the only thing I could come up with was that he was in love with her. Given the ridiculousness of that argument, and I can't come up with any other other than that I've overestimated Nachomamma because all I heared about him, this option seems less likely.

Nachomamma is scum trying to gain town-cred in the event of a Mala-townflip and get a Mala-buddy as long as she's around. A distinct possibility, but in order for me to truly entertain it MAlakittens needs to convince me herself she isn't scum. Before my V/LA this weekend I'll try to get my case on her through so she gets something to respond to. Nachomamma can respond to it as well, but only AFTER Malakittens did so.

Both Nachomamma abd Malakittens are town and I'm the one misguided. A possibility as well.

My case will need to move this debate forward and hopefully to a fruitful conclusion.

[Grimgroove]

I'll be

V/LA until Sunday evening 8th of December

.

Just getting that notice out there already, but I do intend to still post that case on Malakittens before I go, depending on how busy work is.

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to start with replying to what Nachomamma said:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Actor

What I thought you possibly were.

My mind is not right at the moment. ._.

This rabbit hole theory is crazy town and not really a scumMala move at all. It is also completely consistent with earlier posting:

It's a random thought. Hypothesizing about a completely random role being in the game based on an RVS-joke is not alignment-indicative, no matter how you see it.
What is objectively verifiable though, is that this theory, or this kind of thinking, does not remind me of a scumhunt-driven process. All Mala did was make an association between MattP's early intent to hammer and the Actor-role.
Why would Town care to think about what kind of town a person would be, let alone be so specific as to go delve into the role of something that seems rather rare to me.

I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

So unless you think that Mala-scum came up with the idea at the beginning of the game to suspect someone of being an Actor who didn't RVS vote from her first post, crumb it initially, then react immediately when they put a vote down, then she's probably town.

The random thought itself is easy enough to make it look townish, because it's null to begin with. Being consistently null doesn't make one town.
Malakittens may have come up with this idea in the beginning yes, scum needs certain grounds to start attacking someone. If Mala could consider the Actor-perspective as a reasonable basis to suspect MattP as town, she could just as well do it as scum. The fact she openly dropped the idea later doesn't make her more town either, it's just a realization that it's not the kind of argument that gets you very far. This realization is also null.

It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off regardless of my alignment in any past game we played. I guess you have a point you haven't tunneled me as town, but right now you're tunneling on town me.

This also struck me as a wonderfully town reaction. I don't think Mala-scum would say something that was false and easily proven to be false and then back down so easily like this.

This is really bullshit. Scum also makes factual mistakes, not always because they intend to do so. Of course they'll back down easily from it once someone finds out. If the wouldn't they'd be stringing themselves up. Giving Mala townpoints for backing down easily is nonsensical.
And I'm not so sure it was a factual mistake, because she's still trying to stretch it. "It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off" doesn't ring true to me.

It's part of her scum-meta to do this, but you're ignoring it and treating her like town because she's only focusing on any interactions that's coming at her instead of taking the bull by the horns and looking at other posts like I know town-Peng to do so.

Her push on penguin is also a pretty clear effort to sort her out, and it's a type of attack based on a scumread in a previous game that feels pretty fucking genuine. I always like pushes based on meta authority and this is no exception.

Also liked the reach out to mollie even after she found an easy reason to call mollie town

.

Explain the thing in bold to me? How are the two things you describe here mutually exclusive for scum?

And I saw no town-intentions in the push on penguin. At the start, this was based on TWO posts by penguin. 2. That's it. She then proceeded to give it extra weight by the meta-arguments you see there. I've seen town-peng too and I've rarely (I even think, never, but should check) seen her take the bull by the horns.

What I see is a clear effort to redirect our attention elsewhere. That's what scum does. Of course you can expect them to give reasons with them, but it's not because penguin may have given her some by her reactionary playstyle, that Malakittens' intentions were good from the start. I'm convinced they aren't.

The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...

This was extremely nitpicky; seemed like the type of thing scum would attack but can't find town having conviction in.

I don't want to make this about me, but I am known to be quite nitpicky at times. And I find that a very strange comment coming from you, whose tagline is "Devil is in the details".

But this isn't nitpicky. Malakittens is townreading you, despite of things. Not because of things.

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

This is not the way a townread generally works and feels extremely forced.
Why does defensiveness give him townpoints?
Why didn't you say: Nacho is being defensive, so he's probably town?

These things do matter. That "but" is a lack-of-genuinity-tell.

That argument is bad. There's nothing remotely special about that kind of bitching. Even if he didn't do it before (as if you'd remember something like him NOT doing something like that before), it's not as crucial as you make it out to be. Maybe he learned a thing or two in the meanwhile, leading him to be suspicious of early townreads? MAybe it's the nature of your particular townreads that don't sit well with him? Maybe, maybe, maybe, so many possible explanations. Yet you focus on one and turn it into a crucial "argument".

He uses Mala noting that shos didn't dislike early townreads in the past as a point against Mala because "shos might have changed". Yes, shos might have changed but nothing at all points to that so Mala shouldn't have to make that assumption when she sees something different, and it's weird he expects her to make that assumption.

You have missed to point completely. My point was not to have Malakittens make that certain assumption of shos having changed. The point was getting Mala out of making another assumption that was way too particular (and convenient) given at we were looking at, because there's so many other assumptions abound regarding shos' stance towards those townreads that are at least equally reasonable.

I'm not sure if I'll have time for a full ISO. I'll try and see how far I get.

[Grimgroove]

Sorry, it will have to wait till Sunday, got a bus to catch and a report to finish. Priorities :p

I'll be

V/LA until Sunday evening 8th of December

.

Just getting that notice out there already, but I do intend to still post that case on Malakittens before I go, depending on how busy work is.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, I've been meaning to try out a new theory that corrects a serious statistical error a lot of people, myself included, make when using meta.

People use a "has or hasn't" meta tell. If someone has done something before as town and they do it again the person says that player is town. This doesn't make sense because the difference between "1 time as town, 0 times as scum" and "2 times as town, 0 times as scum" is not statistically a significant different, and if you consider it being a random sample, then there's a 25% chance of the player doing something twice as town and zero times as scum which isn't statistically significant at all.

This isn't even counting the fact that ACTIONS are usually to some level predetermined as both alignments which introduces bias into the sample.

HOWEVER, there's some stuff, mainly syntax and word use, that people don't really think about.

Consider using the word "scum". Any player can argue that it's very likely both town and scum will use the words plenty each game. HOWEVER, this logic is a statistically unsound point when you take quantity of the word use into play.

Suppose you take 100 games from a player where they were town, where the player started the game from pg 1 and you read up to about the thousandth post of each game and counted one player's uses of the word "scum". Suppose you get a mean of 80 with a standard deviation of 20. You can then find the 95% confidence interval and then check the game we're currently in and see if their number of uses falls in the bracket. It's possible that there is no difference, and that their alignment isn't linearly dependent on their use of the word "scum". It's also possible that their scum and town games DO have a difference, and that they fall into the "town" bracket. You can figure out dependence by also testing a bunch of scum games they were in and seeing if their is a statistical difference between quantity of the word used between the two alignments.

I'd like to try this out.

MattP is scum.

And Malakittens as well.

Nachomamma would be my third choice for scum, but not my first.

VOTE: Malakittens

I'll catch up more extensively later.

[Grimgroove]

Because of something CrashTextDummy once told me: he's only made posts that are easily fakeable for scum. Most of his posts hint at him being town, but nothing screams it.

And I just really disliked 1092. It's either something that belongs in a game theory topic, or in his head. But not like this. What does it add to the game? I was talking about whispers before, but this post SCREAMS that MattP is very carefully molding his pro-town image. Problem with this post: it implies his long-term survival in this game (because this is not a short-term plan). This implication is at odds with the impression he's giving as being a strong town-presence.

And even though I was high, I still think I'm on to something when it comes to his connection with Malakittens. But that only matters after Malakittens flips, which I feel is a piority over MattP's flip.

[Grimgroove]

What's this immoral thing you speak of?

[Grimgroove]

Gg, i know im drunkposting here often too, but even then i taje responsivility on what i say. So regarding 876. Were you **really** that superhigh, or did you just conclude that two people are scum based on a nongamerelated post? Can you explain that thought.

876

This reply is just to take me to that post so I know what he's talking about.

[Grimgroove]

Gg, i know im drunkposting here often too, but even then i taje responsivility on what i say. So regarding 876. Were you **really** that superhigh, or did you just conclude that two people are scum based on a nongamerelated post? Can you explain that thought.

876

This reply is just to take me to that post so I know what he's talking about.

I think I explained it in 911.
That part of "never playing with MAlakittens in the future" didn't sound sincere. And the fact Malakittens didn't evenr eact to it made it sound to me like scum bussing scum over things that are normally not vote-worthy in itself. Felt like an act and I still think it does now, no matter how non-high I am.

I can't even recall the reason why MattP said that. MattP, can you refresh my memory?

[Grimgroove]

If Mala is scum and did the "I'm going to replace if you tunnel me" thing to Wisdom at the beginning of the game I'm going to never join another game with her

1. This came at a time long after Malakittens made this threat. I'd buy such an emoitional response right after the fact, but not with such a delay. Point 1 to this not being genuine.
2. The transgression ("faking frustration as scum by threatening to replace out") is nowhere near as bad as to warrant such a reaction. Faking emotions is part of many scumplayers' strategy, and fake threats are used by some of those. Point 2 to this not being genuine.
3. Malakittens, upon seeing this threat, ignored it. Completely. Is that what you would do when seeing someone state they'll never play with you again over such a minor thing? Point 3 to this not being genuine, and point 1 to Malakittens being in on it.

That's how I see it. And I see nothing immoral about it, considering this argument points to both Malakittens and MattP being in a scumteam together. There won't be any hard feelings between them as it was part of a strategy of distancing, although there may be some grunts of displeasure as MattP didn't execute it as well as he should have.

[Grimgroove]

PA. do you think your vote is parked where it should be parked?GG. same question

I already moved it to Malakittens and intend to leave it there.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, what do you think about my theory of Mala's wiki thing being pre-planned by Matt?
His response to it in 132 kind of sounds theatrical, I believe.

To be honest it doesn't sound like the kind of thing scum would pre-plan, it's too trivial for that.
But I do agree that that "Actor"-tangent by Malakittens does not consitute what I would call 'thinking like town" (as opposed to how Nachomamma would have it) and I do agree that MattP's reaction in post 132 falls under the term "fake" or at the very least "fakeable".
I wouldn't be able to build any theories based on that like you did, but it does strenghten the case.

[Grimgroove]

pirate mollie, how would you call your own play in this game?

[Grimgroove]

Nachomamma is kitten-whipped. Rarely have I seen a knight in shining armour fight so valiantly against reason.

[Grimgroove]

pirate mollie, how would you call your own play in this game?

weirded out that whiskers is clearly an alt who knows me and is harassing me and no1 cares but now that I am stepping away from it a bit I am getting some info

matt, nacho, wis are town <------ don't touch them

I am still working out other things. ooba and that mirari girl are interesting and might be a strong town unit.

I lack conviction in my shos vote tbh

what a weird question

The correct answer to that question would have been: "My play sucks."
That would have been an honest answer. Because I've just checked your ISO and your play is extremely bad.

Your townreads show me you've been happy with simply looking at the surface. Having the top 3-posters of this game in your townreads reeks of laziness from your part.

What is your read on Malakittens? What is your read on groovy kid?

[Grimgroove]

Check my ISO and find out.

[Grimgroove]

Reminder to self: 1013

[Grimgroove]

Nachomamma is kitten-whipped. Rarely have I seen a knight in shining armour fight so valiantly against reason.

Every time you make a post like this I die a little inside.

It's what the truth does to a lot of people. Don't worry, I'll help you get through it.

What is Wisdoms case against Mala?

The thing you've just been discussing with him?

Did you ever make your post against mala or did you just respond to my town case?

I have made some posts against Mala, and my response to your MAla-towncase was one of them. I did promise a full ISO-case on her, but I'm not sure if I can be bothered anymore.

Why didn't you respond to me when I challenged you on your Matt read?

Maybe I missed it? At least I don't remember it. Where did that happen?

All you seem to be doing is challenging reads. Where are your own cases?

[Grimgroove]

@GG: kitten-whipped? what does that mean? :/

I'm under the assumption that Nachomamma has some reasons that go beyond this game to want to extend so much credit to Malakittens. And according to Wisdom, he's gone and done it before, strengthening me in my assumption.
The level of Mala-defending by Nachomamma has reached ridiculous levels. Like I've noted before: he did more defending of MAlakittens than Malakittens herself. This cannot be considered normal.

[Grimgroove]

This post took a brick and threw it at my face.Grim was a townread of mine. probably because of inertia. my meta of him-town is VERY strong. and it is nowhere nearing what I see this game.GG, do you agree? is there any reason for that? I might need a hard reset on you..

I just got back from V/LA and am interacting my way back into this game. I couldn't help but notice to see you agree with pretty much everything I've been saying. So tell me what your problem is or stop derping.

[Grimgroove]

Grim, what is Wisdom's case on Mala? Summarize it for me, please.

Puppetmaster, you have much to learn. If you want the puppets to dance, give them a pleasant tune.
In other words: Your boring request is denied. Wisdom just summarized it himself, do you want me to copy-paste it, or what?

I have my own aerguments against MAlakittens. Wouldn't it be more interesting to have me rehash those instead?

[Grimgroove]

So, you heard it here first, folks.

Mala/Matt/mollie is the scumteam.

Replace Mala with nacho if I'm somehow wrong there.

Everyone else is town.

I thought you were most certain about your Mala-read? The thing in bold suggests that's the one uyou're least certain about. Could you explain?

Mollie/Malakittens/MattP is the scumteam.

That's my highly educated guess.

[Grimgroove]

Whiskers, I just realized you have ignored me 100% during this game. Why?

[Grimgroove]

For starters you could acknowledge my part in the pressure on Malakittens. I thrive on admiration and whither under the lack thereof.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you comment on me doing it, after/before having done the same thing yourself?

[Grimgroove]

That explains your Mala-townread. The fever is making you hallucinate.

Your early claim would sit badly with me if not for certain factors. You can consider yourself scratched from my scumlist. Doesn't make your reads any better.

[Grimgroove]

Hmm, hold on. May have been too quick.

I'll put a card on the table too.

I know there is a neighborizer in this game. That's because I'm a "Virgin", making me immune to neighborizations.

Two things that make me wonder:

1. The wiki on neighborizers says they can be of any alignment (though most commonly pro-town)
2. Given my town-status, why would I be "protected" from a neighborization through my modifier if not because the tool is in the hands of a non-town player?

Please discuss.

[Grimgroove]

And even though it's not an earthshattering claim, why did you claim now? You were nowhere near getting lynched.

[Grimgroove]

I am a Neighborizer, also.

Wouldn't that constitute a counterclaim?

[Grimgroove]

So people are actually entertaining the idea of there being two town-neighborizers in this game? Have you all gone insane?

[Grimgroove]

Whiskers

[Grimgroove]

And anyone else who hasn't even considered this double claim worthy to comment on.

[Grimgroove]

Umm.
Whiskers is the second Neighborizer.

And thus should be the first freaking out over MattP's claim.
Yet he doesn't.
I don't understand what's going on here.

[Grimgroove]

But I find this behaviour very strange for scum - the only possible scum angle to it could be Wisdom's "Matt's trying to distract us" reasoning (which I guess to a certain extent has worked since we're now talking claims and not reads\lynches)

It's not strange.
This is how it is:
MattP is a neighborizer scum. When he sees this role, claiming "neighborizer" is normally a good strategy to get the heat off of you for a while. It's generally a pro-town role earning you an e asy townread, it's weak enough in order for people not to freak out over an early claim.

He didn't take into account there's also a neighborizer town, in this case Whiskers.

There simply can't be two town-neighbourizers. This isn't about outguessing the game moderator. It just makes no sense.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you want to know if my Virgin status only relates to neighborizers?

[Grimgroove]

WIFOM

[Grimgroove]

Why did you want to know if my Virgin status only relates to neighborizers?

Just answer it

[Grimgroove]

Malakittens: no.
If you want to give your theory, just go ahead.

[Grimgroove]

Malakittens faking a townslip is very incriminating in my opinion.

But I like her claim more than I like MattP's. A neighborizer whose role only gets activated during night 2 doesn't sound convincing.
The point of neighborhoods is having people sit together and talk and get to know each other. It's already weak enough as it is, but it only taking effect on night 2, being two-shots, it doesn't work.

I still think both of them are scum and they're simply distancing right now.

Whiskers, when does your role get activated?

UNVOTE:

[Grimgroove]

Wisdom, does your cold feet on Mala mean cold feet on me too?

This is really odd coming from you.

It pings.

Why?

[Grimgroove]

Grim, why unvote if you still think she's scum?

There are more things to consider when voting. For instance, the claim made me entertain the idea I could be wrong.
It also made me re-prioritize. Working out what's up with these two neighborizers first is what I want to do first and foremost. I don't want any Malakittens-hammers before this happens.

[Grimgroove]

Good Luck Town

<3

Ftr it's obvious that you know this wasn't a hammer and are trying to fake a "townslip" considering the fitz unvote was a page ago

I knew it wasnt a hamemr but i really have nothing else to say

Because I'm town, I'm a cop and none of you are removing yourself from my lynch. Seems like I'm going to be lynched anyways.

So yes

good luck town and please refer 1651 as majority of my reads are possibly correct

This looks extremely bad.

[Grimgroove]

If mala flips town, i cant blame anyone for being on her wagon, so my reads will not change a lot. However, that means mattscum-claiming-inorderto-save-powerfulscummala is a wrong theory, meaning that his claim needs to be reevaluated.

I never bought that motivation for Matt claiming in the first place. 1517.

[Grimgroove]

If we assume Mala is town and her role is real, couldn't the neighborizers just no-action to make her life easy? I think that just makes it more likely that one of the neighborizers is scum, no?

This is an extremely good point.

[Grimgroove]

I'm at work. I don't need to keep checking my phone. so I'm claiming now. Part of me doesn't trust Peng at all and now I'm not trusting MattP.

I'm Aphrodite. I'm a delayed QuickTopic Cop. I can tell if someone has a quick topic or not. However my role does inform me of

lovers being in the setup also

.
With Whiskers/MattP claiming neighborizer this makes my job twice as difficult.

Isn't it common for lovers to claim they are lovers right away? Why didn't this happen here?
This sounds like a stretch from Mala's side. With the theme, you could half-expect a Cupid-role inhere, but the way she presented this thought seems ingenuine.

I did crumb it in this post.

As states already: terrible crumb.

I asked GG about the lover thing because I was hoping I could put him in my semi-confirmed pile, but he didn't want to work with me.

How would any sort of answer put me in a semi-confirmed pile?
What the hell is a "semi confirmed pile" anyway?

I dropped it after a while because I wasn't sure if his no was an answer to me or just a leave me the fuck alone type of no.

What difference does it make?

[Grimgroove]

@Malakittens:

How the hell would I be confirmed town to you if I told you whether or not I'm immune to Lover-isations?
How would that make us a mini-townblock? Why would I read you as town reciprocally?
You just say there already are lovers in the game, so why would there be further lover-isations for me to be immune against anyway?

[Grimgroove]

Is Malakittens at L-1? Some clarity on that would be most welcome. I don't want to rush this and I don't see the need to do so.

[Grimgroove]

@Malakittens:

How the hell would I be confirmed town to you if I told you whether or not I'm immune to Lover-isations?
How would that make us a mini-townblock? Why would I read you as town reciprocally?
You just say there already are lovers in the game, so why would there be further lover-isations for me to be immune against anyway?

!!!!!

[Grimgroove]

And stop responding to non-hammers as if they were hammers.

[Grimgroove]

@Malakittens:

How the hell would I be confirmed town to you if I told you whether or not I'm immune to Lover-isations?
How would that make us a mini-townblock? Why would I read you as town reciprocally?
You just say there already are lovers in the game, so why would there be further lover-isations for me to be immune against anyway?

!!!!!

......

[Grimgroove]

...

[Grimgroove]

Grim? Do you disagree with 1775?

I don't. That's why I find it odd you're not voting for MattP.
I refer to your own 1739 for the further elabaration of the neighborizing being bad.

The only reason why I'm not voting MattP right now is because I want answers from Mala first. It's too soon to lynch her, but it's also too soon to derail that wagon completely.

I agree with your argument against Nacho he isn't really pushing anyone. The fact this is not consistent with his meta (based on what I heared about it) adds to the discomfort.

I haven't really taken a look at Mirari like. He didn't really stand out, but we can't all be standing out. Should go over your arguments against him.

[Grimgroove]

It's not a fake claim, Wisdom. I'm a huge threat to scum and a huge town power favor.

...

[Grimgroove]

I don't see any reasons for Wisdom's vote on Mirari, apart from what looks to me like a rather simple disagreement (1535 and later).
I don't think the Mirari-trajectory is an interesting one with all this other stuff on the table.

[Grimgroove]

It's not a fake claim, Wisdom. I'm a

huge threat to scum and a huge town power favor

.

This was before she claimed QT-cop.
I can't be the only one seeing how this doesn't add up?

[Grimgroove]

havingfitz does confirm MAttP scum though for me.
I had trouble believing there to be two townsided neighborizers, but three really takes the cake. They can't all be town and MattP made the scummiest claim (both flavor and timing-wise).

[Grimgroove]

Why is it more legit? Because it's even more useless than we first thought?

I don't think useless claims are more legit. Definitely not considering the fact Malakittens worked up to her claim by softclaiming a role that's a HUGE threat to scum and a HUGE power for town in 1625.

[Grimgroove]

Question to all neighbourizers: Are you compulsive?

[Grimgroove]

With three neighbourizers, one of them is bound to be scum.
This means there's a neighbourizer in the scum-team, giving scum-Mala inspiration for such a claim.

Also take into account that even regardless of one of the neighbourizers probably being scum, MattP claimed before Malakittens did, so even if MattP isn't scum (heh), the claim itself could have inspired Mala for the fakeclaim.

[Grimgroove]

Which sparked her interest in unnatural ways. I still expect a reply to my 1773. I think it will seal the deal on this "theory" Malakittens was supposedly having. It's nothing more but a thin veil of townish thinking, just like the Actor-thing,b ut there's nothing substantially town behind it. Her answer to that post will uncover that truth.

[Grimgroove]

Imo she crafted that claim after she said strong role. She neverimagined that so much shit would be thrown at that claim.

I repeat the crumb scumtell. She said she crumbed in a post that has nothing to do with the claim. thismeans she NEEDED a crumb, so she searched her iso for something that fits and threww it.

I agree with this.

But I also think we should keep Malakittens alive for the moment, because I agree with Wisdom's 1814 as well. Malakittens only has two options: either be very useful or be lynched. I'm up for giving her the chance to be useful.

For her to be useful we need to lynch the scummy neighborizer though, because he can ruin the usefulness by neighborizing people against town's will.
And I still stand by my belief there is just no way there are three town neighbourizers.

VOTE: MattP

[Grimgroove]

Explain your belief, because yours is less reasonable.

[Grimgroove]

What is the reason to assume three town neighborizers exist?

There are plenty of reasons for scum neighborizer to exist. Firs tof all, it gives one of the scum a front, to mingle with their town-colleagues. Second, it creates a neighborhood where scum can find out more about the town they recruited, plus give them the benefit of doubt towards that town person.

The wiki states it itself: neighborizers can be of iether alignment. So why not in a game with three neighborizers who've claimed already?

[Grimgroove]

shos and grim are returning to my scumpile btw, both for failing to be logical and ignoring mirari

Your despotism is tiresome.

[Grimgroove]

First of all, because aside from set-up specualation, MattP's claim is scummy of itself.
Second of all, because aside from set-up speculation MattP's behavior has been scummy.
Thirdly, because three pro-town neighborizers is actually anti-town. With a QT-Cop (assuming it's true), these are three anti-town roles in town's ranks. It's almost like starting a game with three millers.

You need toe xplain why my assumption ISN'T logical. I don't car eif you did it already. you need to do it again in direct reply to my 1893.

[Grimgroove]

Why is only my thirdly an answer? Suddenly what MattP matters not? The stuff we've been talking about the last 50 pages has been smitten into irrelevance?

I'm also still expecting answers from Malakittens. Ther eis a lot of stuff that doesn't add up.

If you want to scumhunt and townread entiurely based on set-up speculation, go ahead. You want to call that logical, go ahead. I've stopped caring about your swingy reads for a long time and al just looking at facts, arguments, motivations.

You are sadly mistaking yourself for a townleader. Again. First try to hold on to a read for longer than a page and then come talk to me.

[Grimgroove]

Only your "thirdly" is an answer.
To which I'll tell you - what difference does it make action-wise if the third neighborizer is town or scum? Still three anti-town actions.

And to reply to this in a more factual fashion: imagine a world where none of these claims had occurred.

[Grimgroove]

To return to set-up speculation then: do you think it's logical to have a set-up where the one thing hampering a town PR (Mala) are three other town-PR's?

Where does scum come in? They just sit there and watch town get crazy all over each other?

You either scumread MAla, or at leasdt one of the neighborizers, or both.

What you're doing is walking away from this smelly pile of scumshit and start some half-baked case on someone else. Well, you do that. Could be good for the long-term. But this shit needs tog get sorted. And I'll handle this stuff. You can thank me later.

[Grimgroove]

Look it up.

[Grimgroove]

No massclaim.

[Grimgroove]

Only if there's more neighborizers or virgins they should claim.

[Grimgroove]

The only person I'd be willing to move my vote to that is not part of this neighborizing shitfest is mollie.

I'll look at your Mirari-case tomorrow Wisdom. Too tired now. But I don't like the way it started, and I'll tell you right now I'm not expecting much of it.

[Grimgroove]

@Malakittens:

How the hell would I be confirmed town to you if I told you whether or not I'm immune to Lover-isations?
How would that make us a mini-townblock? Why would I read you as town reciprocally?
You just say there already are lovers in the game, so why would there be further lover-isations for me to be immune against anyway?

!!!!!

......

I don't know what I was thinking. I needed sleep pretty damn bad and I wasn't writing or thinking clearly.

Your role overlaps with mine (I think I might be reading too much into my flavor. If I took the flavor at face value and the delayed part at full value it sounds more like neighborizers and not lovers.) The lover thing I was thinking about probably falls more into the "aphrodite" part of my role as I have to wait for "love" to connect before using my role. (Summarized I think enough without being modkilled.)

Because I believe Wis is town, with you being town to me; there's a block of three. You wouldn't read me as town reciprocally, but I would be more likely to prove myself to you in order to get some type of block forming to better the chances of town winning.

Wisdom, I want your views on this reply by Malakittens.
Keep in mind that earlier, right afgter I had claimed Virgin, she asked me how far this virginhood extended. When I asked her why, she claimed to have a theory.
And now she gives me this.
I'll elaborate on my views on this later, but Wisdom, don't ignore this.
I'll look at your Mirari-case today.

[Grimgroove]

Spoiler: Why Mirari is scum

• First, let's remind everyone of 195. I didn't care much about it at the time, but it is a stupid, useless, filler question.
  
• 216 - "ooba votes are bad". The reason she gives for that in 302 is very weak - "i dont think he would be doing that as scum". That doesn't explain her confidence that ooba is so super town that nobody should be voting him. It looks awfully like buddying ooba, especially considering they know each other irl.
  
• 310 - she accuses shos of posting filler - what has she posted up to this point that is not filler? Looks hypocritical, and sheeping others on the big wagon.
  
• 699 - The aforementioned Mala fangirling, that came out of nowhere. She assumes that Mala is town, she assumes that Mala can read penguin like a book, and so she states that Mala scumreading penguin somehow strengthens the likelihood of penguin being scum. All that without having played with either, and without being able to know if Mala is town or not.
  
• 1303 and 1307 - More Mala WKing - "you are all crazy for thinking she is scum". Completely unwarranted given Mala's play.
  
• Some of the reads she gives in 1359 are very bad, especially her Nacho one.
  
• 1360 and 1363 - again taking Mala's side in the Mala-peng ordeal without any visible reason. Too much confidence that Mala has to be town and peng has to be scum that comes from nowhere.
  
• 1526 -
  and note that here start the stronger scumtells
  - she once again spams about us having to lynch penguin. Note that in all of her posts, there has been no attempts to try and interact with penguin, like a town player would do to ensure their read. She is just taking it for granted that penguin is scum (and that Mala is town) and never tries to reconsider or work with penguin or work with anyone else (not even ooba) to see if she could be wrong in her reads. I'll also point out her "I think both neighborizers are town", which I found weird at the time that we didn't know much yet and it seemed weird to believe such a thing.
  
• In 1531 she claims she is "pushing" penguin, while all she has done is vote her and state that she wants her to be lynched. And before Whiskers or someone comes here and says "but that's a push Wisdom", no it isn't. I was telling her that she is tunneling on penguin and in response to that, she said that she is not tunneling but actually pushing her.
  
• 1540.
  The most important scumtell for Mirari.
  She is overexplaining what penguin's motivation is behind her stating that she is willing to lynch Mala. This thing does not come from town. This thing comes from scum who wants to manipulate people. It's really typical, it's exactly how scum go about manipulating. I don't know how else to describe it, she is giving fake reasons for why penguin did what she did.
  
• 1557 - "I don't need to interact with scum, they are scum". This further shows how her mindset is not a town one. She is convinced that penguin is scum and does not care to interact with her at all, she even admits so. I am one of the worst tunnelers in existence but never, and I mean NEVER, will I stop interacting with the person I am tunneling on, even if it is to tell them "you are obvscum, just die" and see their reaction. Not caring to do such a thing is absolutely a scum trait.
  
• Her defense of the Matt claim is very very weird. She struggles to find arguments to show why it could come from town and she does not want to consider that it could come from scum. In the end she even states that Matt could be lying about his role and have a stronger role - and despite that she finds the lying coming from town rather than scum. It doesn't make sense.

I like your points about Mirari's stance in the Malakittens - penguin - thing. That auto-townread on Malakittens and underexplained scumread on Penguin is definitely anti-town.

But it could be lazy town. It's a thing I've noticed in recent games as well, a lot of town is looking scummy simply because they don't care about the game as much as people like you and I do.

What you consider the most important scumtell I consider one of the weakest. It just stems from your disagreement with the way Mirari has been playing the game. I think the argument she put there is definitely one that possibly comes from town: looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you. At least this is a push on penguin.

I agree with you the defense on the MAttP claim is weird, but I find anyone who doesn't want MattP lynched right now weird.

It's not a bad case, but there's nothing conclusive enough. As part of your case also revolves around MattP's scummy claim, please consider voting him as a form of middle ground.

I agree Malakittens can wait, but I still think she's scummy as hell.

[Grimgroove]

What is so scummy about Matt?

You can't believe how inclined I was to use a profanity against you upon reading this.

But you did sell me on Malakittens-town. I'm hoping everyone agrees that the neighborizers shouldn't be neighborizing as long as Malakittens is around.

[Grimgroove]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not going to answer 1982. Just look at my ISO. Same goes for you as for Nachomamma: if you want me to dance like your puppet, don't give me boring assignments. We have talked about MattP extensively during this game, you know full well why I think he's scum. The only argument that's dropped is his association with Malakittens through that emo-shit, but all the other stuff still holds.

[Grimgroove]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

...seriously?
How is that the exact same thing?


A: penguin: I support a Mala lynch, but I prefer Mirari right now.
B: Mirari: omg she is scum who doesn't want to commit to the Mala wagon so obvscum
C: Wisdom: What Mirari did comes from scum because town don't think that way.

How the hell is B and C the same? I am judging an action in context with everything else Mirari has done and the way it was worded. There is no way that is a town thought process there. Can you say the same about Mirari? Had penguin not made it clear that Mala is in her interests? Had penguin not made it clear that she scumreads Mirari more? Why would town not consider the possibility penguin is just town who wants to support her higher scumread's lynch more than her lower scumread's?

Ok, not exactly the same, but similar.

You attributes/sees scummy intentions ("manipulation") to/in something Mirari did ("seeing scum motivation in an action by penguin alien") and present them as fact.
Mirari attributed/saw scummy intentions ("fencesitting") to/in something penguin_alien did ("expressing interest in a Mala-lynch but holding back from it") and present them as fact.

Granted, your arguments are a bit better, but that can still be attributed to laziness.

And also, look at penguin_alien's 1960 where p_A is quite wishy-washy about her earlier read on Malakittens, which was pretty clear in 1486 and earlier in 992.
In 1960 penguin is basically denying to ever have scumread Malakittens.

This means Mirari is actually on to something.

[Grimgroove]

I misread 1960.
Scratch what I said about that.

[Grimgroove]

Yes, I thought it said "Back to? I never was away from townreading you."

[Grimgroove]

Also there's no wishy-washiness in the other posts either.

I didn't say there was.

[Grimgroove]

The shos-neighborizer claim was a joke.

[Grimgroove]

Back on Monday. Prod dodge.

[Grimgroove]

(btw, isn't this game breaking some post ammount records?)

[Grimgroove]

I'm still very happy with my vote on MattP.

[Grimgroove]

Prefer lynching (in order of preference):
MattP
ika
Nachomamma8

Fine with lynching (in no particular order):
ooba
penguin_alien
Mirari

Not fine with lynching (in no particular order):
shos
Malakittens
Wisdom
havingfitz
Whiskers

Desperado needs sorting out.

[Grimgroove]

GG is another possibility just based on the reads list

Haaa! Gotcha!
Explain!

[Grimgroove]

By that measure I should be declared Innocent Child.

[Grimgroove]

I stenghtened MattP's claim at first, only to second guess this strenthening only a mere minutes afterwards. What the hell are you people smoking? I've been wanting to lynch this man for the last 50 pages. Stop throwing hypotheses in eachothers faces and circlejerk and actually look at interactions that have taken place.

When I claimed Virgin I said exactly why I did it. Go read it, and the two-three posts after it. There's really no reason to start fabricating all these scenarios and associations. A waste of time and space.

What I do agree with however is that I don't see any reason for the other Virgin(s) not to claim. I've asked them to do this a couple of pages ago already.

Case on Whiskers is bad, this whole thing about him not flavor-explaining his ability is bullshit and not hard proof at all. What is hard proof is what we cans ee and look at, and that's:

1/ Nachomamma still not scumhunting.
2/ MattP having dissapeared after having lost his town-leader position and his unquestioned universal townread.
3/ MattP's claim circumstances and motives still being as scummy as before.
4/ Both of the above's early strong defending of Malakittens with objectively stupid arguments.
5/ Ika not in any way turining around the bad impression mollie left on us.

I want to lynch one of those three. Soon.

[Grimgroove]

Considering what he did whenever he did pop up, it's very good. DON'T START WITH ME WISDOM! You have asked me once before why I thought MAttP was scum and I almost popped a fuse. If you want to go cross-defending him you go ahead but do not expect any feedback from me on that whatsoever.

[Grimgroove]

It's a possibility, I've always said one of the neighborizers is bound to be scum, but I don't like how he's trying to build a case on it solely based on that. It's supportive at best, and him throwing in that bucket theory improves his input only marginally. Too much theory, too much set-up spec, and too little about what's going on here and now.

And what I've said about the neighbours also applies to the Virgins, if there's more than just me, which considering the amount of virgin gods flavourwise should be the case. Whenever they claim they should immediately add an explanation as to why they haven't done so earlier.
If nobody claims, the neighbourizers have their job cut out for them: find the silent virgin(s) and smoke them out.

[Grimgroove]

I'm pushing people I suspect.

I have very bad news for you. I do not doubt for one minute you are telling the truth here, but it appears all those posts you made, at least those where you are pushing someone, have dissappeared into the void. They are now probably in a galaxy far-far away and have taken the form of Zsngrhl'ghlok-excrements, unfit for human reading material at this point in time.

Could you remind me who you've been pushing and how, before this dreadful anomaly took place?

[Grimgroove]

Virgins claiming narrows down power roles very hard and it's not at all worth confirming the theory.

Yet you have no qualms with claiming you're NOT a virgin.

[Grimgroove]

If nobody claims, the neighbourizers have their job cut out for them: find the silent virgin(s) and smoke them out.

I do withdraw this statement. As long as Malakittens is in town, neighborizers shouldn't be neighbourizing. They can always visit me to confirm my role though.

[Grimgroove]

Or all the neighborizers neighbour Malakittens.
Not sure what that would do exactly, but it sounds good.

[Grimgroove]

I agree that they are either running on a huge gambit or one is scum and another is town or they are both town.

You say it best, when you say nothing at all

The smile on your face, lets me know that you fear me.
There's a truth in your eyes, saying you want to kill me.
The touch of your hand says you'll fencesit wherever you post.

You say it best when you say nothing at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xrxrEEGVdM

VOTE: ika

<3

[Grimgroove]

You can't lynch shit even if you wanted to.

[Grimgroove]

You can't lynch shit even if you wanted to.

What's the point of this again?

Just telling you to stop talking big about lynching me if you don't have a single argument to back that up. You're posturing and that makes you look very scummy.

[Grimgroove]

This game is dragging on. I want a lynch and I want it to be on ika.

[Grimgroove]

ooba, you've been calling me scum for a while now. Time to put your arguments where your mouth is.

[Grimgroove]

ooba, you've been calling me scum for a while now. Time to put your arguments where your mouth is.

are you saying 'vote me if you dare'? O_o; what's the point of this?
GG: what is your opinion about the setup spec? would you say that there's a scum in the neighbourizers pool?

No, I'm telling him what is written down. Not "vote me if you dare". I don't ask for votes, I ask for arguments. The point of asking for that should be obvious. I remember him saying something along the line sof me being some kind of Mafia Godfather and my virgin status being proof of that. Obviously, this isn't an argument.

I gave my opinions about the set-up spec and my own stab at it around a week ago. Your question is proof of this game simply dragging to the deadline. Do the reasonable thing and jump on the obvtown train consisting op people who put time and energy in this game when it actually mattered and vote ika. Thank you.

[Grimgroove]

<3 Desperado

[Grimgroove]

ika, Nachomamma or MattP are the only ones I'll be voting during this day, depending on which lynch is most likely to happen.

I don't like the names on the penguin wagon. Mirari and Ooba are both nullish (Ooba's theory on me and the resultigng pressure is ludicrous to such extents it's scummy though) and Nachomamma plainly is scum, so forgive me for being reluctant to hop on penguin's lynch seeing those names advocating it.

Mala-lynch is impoissible, you simply don't lynch someone who claimed a PR.

This day needs to end. I'm genuinely bored with MS for a bit right now, and this stage in the game isn't helping.

[Grimgroove]

Is that why all you've done lately is ask for arguments?

What more do you require of me?

[Grimgroove]

Didn't sound like it.

[Grimgroove]

Would you prefer a no-lynch over ika?

[Grimgroove]

Yes. I agree with it!

[Grimgroove]

Why are we bargaining? You want an ika-lynch just as much as I do.
There's more options than a no-lynch or a penguin-lynch and I'm not letting you force my hand in this by answering your last question.

My stance on the penguin-wagon is clear. You are a pivotal vote right now and I'd much rather see it land on ika than where it's at now. Given your stance on the players it requires less goodwill from your side than from mine in order to move your vote. You agree with ika being scum, while I have penguin as nulltown.

[Grimgroove]

VOTE: Penguin

Unsatisfactory claim, reads in 2683 look fabricated rather than genuine, plan involving the supposed commuter and Malakittens is nonsensical.

Might be the last thing I post during this stage, all has been said, let's finish this, adios.

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to have to replace out due to time constraints, holidays and the works.

VOTE: Ika

So that my successor knows where to look.

MAttP (or whoever replaced him) and Nachomamma complete my scumlist.

Malakittens is my strongest townread (claims) and Desperado my second biggest (for making sense).

Sorry to Elyse for having to do this, I also didn't know this game was going to last so long.

@mod: request to replace out

See you all somewhere near the end of January.