Mini Normal 1609: The Case Of Doctor Pepper (Game Over)

[Doogal121]

Good morning. I don't think I've played with any of you yet. Looking forward to it.

Vote Greyice

L-5

Grey, would you be kind enough to explain the the group why my infallible scum detecting dice say that you have stolen all the DP?

[Doogal121]

Damn, it's morning. How about "To the group" instead of "The the group"....

Moar coffees pls.

[Doogal121]

Um, probably a newb question here but...

Are TTH and BBT both living near each other IRL or is Neighbors a game mechanic? Is it like Masons?

[Doogal121]

Yo, Anatole, I'm calling bullshit

I went through your games. Your last game with a neighborhood had two town neighbors. Do you know what, Anatole? They were both town. Your last game with Neighbors, Anatole.

You know what? There's a very old philosophy. It goes

Lynch. All. Liars.

I find it nearly impossible to believe that you didn't even bother to do a quick double check as part of an actual sincere scumhunting effort (instead of piggybacking on the hate). And then you dodged my question, Anatole.

Lynch. All. Liars.

Vote: Anatole

You can lynch Boonskiies when I'm dead for a twofer, fyi.

Um, Grey, it looks like there was one neighbor and he was a survivor who could add people he chose to his neighbor thread. That is not the case here apparently.

[Doogal121]

Upon further research, it's clear that Anatole was lying when he said that neighbors always have scum in them. If you count third party roles as scummy, then he's not lying. And it's an easy mistake to make.

FOS at Greyice for characterizing the Anatole situation and

VOTE: BBT

for Jumping on the Anatole bandwagon without doing any of his own research.

[Doogal121]

*pedit. Wasn't lying.

[Doogal121]

Pedit. Mis-characterizing.

Sorry, I have a head cold and I'm going to be stupid for the next couple of days. Please forgive me.

[Doogal121]

I'm not willing to walk away from this whole BBT-TTH thing yet...

BBT, when you quoted, you said the thread was locked. Why? Do you only have night chat or something?
TTH: Why, of all players, did you pick Wake as the first one to isolate in discussion?

Everybody who has actually rolled Mafia before: Does Mafia typically have day chat or night chat only? I always assumed they had day chat.

BBT: Did you actually look into the Greyice Anatole LaL claim, or did you just vote it assuming that Greyice was being truthful? If you took him at his word, why didn't you look further?

[Doogal121]

So, TTH, you picked Wake instead of anybody else, because you were lurking games that he was in prior to joining? Of all the players in this game, is he the only one you directly observed?

[Doogal121]

@TTH; Thank you, you answers make sense.

@BBT, I await your answers.

[Doogal121]

I'm not willing to walk away from this whole BBT-TTH thing yet...

BBT, when you quoted, you said the thread was locked. Why? Do you only have night chat or something?
TTH: Why, of all players, did you pick Wake as the first one to isolate in discussion?

Everybody who has actually rolled Mafia before: Does Mafia typically have day chat or night chat only? I always assumed they had day chat.

BBT: Did you actually look into the Greyice Anatole LaL claim, or did you just vote it assuming that Greyice was being truthful? If you took him at his word, why didn't you look further?

Here is another question:
BBT, do you just look at the last post and throw a vote down or do you read the thread?

[Doogal121]

Thanks.

I'm Ok with leaving my vote on you BBT.

If you are just going to randomly sheep instead of engage and pressure, you are not helping the town and most likely scum.

For the record, the whole Greyice thing is sitting in my craw really bad as well and I'd be willing to switch my vote if needed.

[Doogal121]

Hey everybody, I'm not dead, still dealing with my head cold. I have a lot to catch up on this, will try to have more input later today.

[Doogal121]

Ok, the whole AK vs Wake thing I have experienced before. They were both town, everybody else picked sides and townies got picked off one by one till Mafia had a perfect victory. I have a feeling the same thing is happening here.

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.
TTH seems newb townish revealing the existence of the neighbors. @TTH would you answer these two questions... 1. Is BBT your only neighbor? 2. Do you have day chat. Both of those questions are still outstanding.

I still am really bothered by the Greyice mis-characterizing AK's neighbors townie argument. If it wasn't for BBT's bouncing all over the place, he would be at the top of my scum list.

My vote stays where it is, but I'm willing to move it to Greyice if enough people feel he's scummier.

[Doogal121]

@Boons, is BBT skummy enough for you to quick hammer?

UNVOTE

(Unvoting just to avoid the quick hammer. I still want to know what is going on with Greyice)

[Doogal121]

@Massive, I would have a problem with a quick hammer without a discussion. Quite frankly, I think this lynch anybody at L-1 policy is crap. I prefer to have someone sitting at l-1 for 24 hours or so after intent to hammer to see if any counter wagons get pushed, PR claims come out, final reads before lynching ETC.

That quick hammer policy is so crazy anti town that Boons is on my scum list.

[Doogal121]

Prod dodge, crazy day today, I'll contribute more tomorrow.

[Doogal121]

Going to drop my reads down, been doing a lot of lurking and not really able to post much. Still care about the game. This week is just going to be a rough one for me.
VOTE: Grey Ice
Scum play against AK with the LaL argument and then disappeared.

Town:
Wake
Boons
TTH
AK

Scum:
BBT
Grey Ice

Everybody else I don't have strong reads on.

[Doogal121]

VOTE: BBT L-2

I'm OK with lynching him now. Vote jumping, no scum hunting, all over the place. Just ugly really.

Willing to hold my case against Greyice until a replacement comes on.

[Doogal121]

Welcome Green, I just did a check and it is indeed L-2 still. Rambler didn't have a vote on the person at L-2 (BBT).

[Doogal121]

538 had the best case against BBT. Then he(BBT) hops in and unvotes and revotes the same person without any explanation.

[Doogal121]

@0mph: FOS for buddying yourself in 659.



@Wake and AK, Who would you be comfortable lynching and why are you both reserving your votes?

[Doogal121]

@0mph: Your join date is this week. Are you an alt? Are you a newbie to this forum? If so, have you played elsewhere? What is your general experience.

[Doogal121]

@Doogal:

(1) Observation: You claimed ignorance about game mechanics in Post 40, going so far to make a joke (?) about whether TTH and BBT being "neighbors" is a game mechanic or a IRL aspect of their play. Then, in your very next post, Post 110, you appear very knowledgeable about game mechanics, including how a survivor role was implemented into a neighbor scenario.

Question: What explains this broad discrepancy in your knowledge about roles generally, and the neighbor role specifically?


(2) Observation: In Post 164, you faulted BBT for "randomly sheep<ing> instead of engage and pressure." It would appear that you are referring to BBT's vote for scrambles (Post 155), which BBT explained as being a vote for a lurker (Post 157, Post 159). I scrolled through the previous pages, and it does not appear that anyone else was voting for scrambles before BBT's post.

Question: How was BBT's lurker vote on scrambles "sheeping," and how did it not try to "engage and pressure" scrambles to provide substantive content to the thread?


(3) Observation: In Post 164 and Post 375, you mention your willingness to vote GreyICE, but only upon other people's approval of your suspicions.

Question (A): Why were you making a GreyICE vote contingent upon the approval of other players?

Question (B): What changed by Post 535, when you finally vote switched to GreyICE? (Only Anatole had voted GreyICE at this time, and a quick skim of the preceding pages reveals that GreyICE was not on anyone's mind.)


(4) Observation: You said:

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.

Question: What other players constituted this "plenty" of scum candidates at that time? How about now?

I'm back everybody. I go away for a weekend and this whole place blows up. Crazy catching up, if I miss something, please let me know.

1. I never heard of Neighbors before. In the next post, it was response to GreyIce who posted a previous AK game where I read all the role PMs and the PT so I got the idea of how Neighbors worked. It also showed that GreyIce mischaracterised AK's experience. I then read a couple of other AK games (just the role PM's and final results) to confirm that AK wasn't lying.
2. It wasn't the vote on scrambles, it was the vote on AK that really got under my skin. Greyice started a bad wagon based upon LaL and BBT didn't even bother to read the link to see if Greyice was correct before throwing a vote down.
3A. If BBT hadn't quick jumped onto the wagon that Greyice started, I would have voted for Greyice just for misleading us. As scummy as I thought that was, BBT was scummier for jumping on that wagon.
3B. I felt I couldn't leave my vote on BBT for fear of Boonskies troll hammer coming in and we still had plenty of time (and I wanted to see if a counter wagon appeared) so I thought putting my vote on Greyice would help provide pressure on him, hopefully to get him to answer why he threw down some BS and then disappeared.
4. The scumminess was BBT sheeping Greyice and Greyice throwing down a BS LaL arguement. We also had the whole AK vs Wake thing to go through which I felt was Town vs Town but I thought we might be able to analyze the other participants to see if any thing scummy ended up coming out of it.

Right now, I'm 99% certain BBT is scum and I'd love to see him hang. As for Greyice, I'm willing to listen to the replacement to find out if the slot was scum or Greyice was just a crap player. Given the drop off afterwords, I'm slightly leaning to laziness instead of intentional misdirection being behind the LaL case.

Hope this answers your questions, I'll give another overview later once I'm all read up.

[Doogal121]

@AK, you probably answered this already, but I can't find it. Can you tell me how you felt about BBT jumping on the LaL wagon against you without even reading the posted game?

[Doogal121]

Everybody, I have the feeling that the Csaero wagon is a counter wagon that I was expecting to see. Looking at the voters, the people on the BBT wagon are the people I am town reading, where as the Csareo wagon are either null to scum for me. I don't think we have a town vs town issue going here.

@Jagged, Can you give us a quick reads list please?

@Mod I'll be V/LA tomorrow (tuesday)

Noted!

[Doogal121]

It has also became clear that the same players start becoming active whenever he begins to be tunneled again (massive, greencrayons, ruffles)

There is a very simple reason for this and it has nothing to do with BBT's alignment. I'll give you an example of this principle at work.

GreyICE's LaL push on AK. We know this wasn't true. There was push back on GreyICE for making the claim and on BBT for sheeping the vote. When Csareo made bad cases against BBT, the push back came into play against him. In theory, everyone who pushes GreyICE/JA for making a bad case and pushes BBT for following a bad case should also have some concerns about Csareo. In practice, it doesn't happen.

@Doogal121 & Flubbernugget:

Could you tell me why this hasn't happened in your case?

Well, as someone who was on the BBT bandwagon longer than Csareo, I don't think he made a bad case against BBT. I think the whole AK/TTH/BBT theory was confusing and wrong but I took that as town really trying to figure out what is going on here. And to make some sense of the whole AK vs Wake thing that going on. Can somebody explain the bad case made against BBT to me, I ISOed Csaero and I'm not seeing it?

I really believe that Csareo is a counterwagon to BBT and I would really like a flip to confirm this. Any of the Csareo/undecided crowd, are any of you willing to come over?

[Doogal121]

I really believe that Csareo is a counterwagon to BBT and I would really like a flip to confirm this.

Any of the Csareo/undecided crowd, are any of you willing to come over?

Could you walk through this a bit further?

Sure, in the past 3 games I have played, I have noticed that town wagons tend to not have counter wagons pop up where scum wagons tend to have a secondary wagon pop up. A way to see if the wagon was indeed scum was to see what else happened once it got up to the L-1 or 2 level. I believe that Csaero is that wagon. If the flip comes with BBT as town, than I clearly was wrong. Perhaps the Csareo wagon was a real wagon and not some scum tactic. If that was the case, I would expect the light to be shined on myself, Csareo and Flubber. I am Ok with that.

I still think BBT is scum. I think the BBT flip will give us a chance to look at some votes and associations. I think the BBT flip either way gives us the most information to go upon. Can somebody make the same case for the Csaero flip?

People unwilling/unable to switch:
Massive
0MPH (being replaced)
BBT (cause it's suicide, I wouldn't expect him to self hammer)

People who haven't gone on record on the switch issue:
Rufflig
AK
JaggedAppliance
Crayons Verts

@Mod

Has the deadline shifted with the 0MPH replacement?

[Doogal121]

Perhaps the Csareo wagon was a real wagon and not some scum tactic. If that was the case, I would expect the light to be shined on myself, Csareo and Flubber. I am Ok with that.

Why did you exclude TTH, Boon and Wake from this list?

Have either of those 3 pushed as hard on you as myself, Csareo or Flubber?

[Doogal121]

@Doogal:

Sure, in the past 3 games I have played,

I have noticed that town wagons tend to not have counter wagons pop up where scum wagons tend to have a secondary wagon pop up. A way to see if the wagon was indeed scum was to see what else happened once it got up to the L-1 or 2 level.

I believe that Csaero is that wagon. If the flip comes with BBT as town, than I clearly was wrong. Perhaps the Csareo wagon was a real wagon and not some scum tactic. If that was the case, I would expect the light to be shined on myself, Csareo and Flubber. I am Ok with that.

So are you saying that (1) simply because there are two dueling wagons, the existence of a second bandwagon is evidence that the first bandwagon is on scum, or are you saying that (2) there is a particular sequence of events as to when these two specific bandwagons came into existence in this game that evinces the second bandwagon being an actual attempt to prevent the first bandwagon's lynch?

If it's the former: I don't see how, as a general proposition, simultaneously existing bandwagons is actual evidence of the first-occurring bandwagon being on scum, rather than simply being consistent with such a scenario. That is, I don't see how two simultaneously existing bandwagons, in and of itself, supports that it is more likely that the first bandwagon is on scum, rather than the second bandwagon, or both bandwagons, or neither bandwagon. I would appreciate any further comments you may have as to this theory, if you are indeed adopting it in the abstract rather than as applied to a particular set of circumstances.

If it's the latter: Can you please set forth the particular sequence of events that makes you believe that this second bandwagon (on Csareo) is an attempt to protect the first bandwagon target (BBT)?

-----

Also, as BBT is a solid town read for me, I'm not going to switch to the BBT wagon and sacrifice someone who I'm easily reading as town (not always the easiest thing to do) just for information.

It's the latter. I'm going off memory partly here because the VC's weren't regular at this time of the game. I believe BBT was at L-2 when I pulled my vote off because I was worried about troll hammering. This was on 9/11. I put my vote back on him 9/17 because I was no longer worried about troll hammering and he was just acting completely anti town. Right after that is when the BBT jumped on Csareo(bringing to L-4 I believe) and the votes started racking up on the counter wagon.

@Viridi Crayon, can you tell me what BBT has done that is pro town?

[Doogal121]

Have either of those 3 pushed as hard on you as myself, Csareo or Flubber?

I wouldn't say you or Flubber, particularly Flubber, have pushed particularly hard for my lynch.

I can't speak for Flubber, but I'm defiantly pushing for your lynch. I'm pretty sure I've been on your wagon the longest.

[Doogal121]

Shall we create some type of mathematical index of BBT Lynch-Pushiness? (Time on Wagon) X (number of times lynch advocated) perhaps?

[Doogal121]

@Doogal:

(1) You promised an "overview" of your thoughts once you caught up back in Post 1079. That never happened, even though you have posted substantive things since that time. I am interested in your thoughts on the game more generally (not just BBT and Csareo), including what other players have your attention, and why. I'll leave to your preference for how broad/deep you want to get with your thoughts.


(2) In reference to you unvoting BBT in Post 535 (by way of a vote on GreyICE), and revoting BBT in Post 583, you have said:

3B. I felt I couldn't leave my vote on BBT for fear of Boonskies troll hammer coming in and we still had plenty of time (and I wanted to see if a counter wagon appeared) so I thought putting my vote on Greyice would help provide pressure on him, hopefully to get him to answer why he threw down some BS and then disappeared.

It's the latter. I'm going off memory partly here because the VC's weren't regular at this time of the game. I believe BBT was at L-2 when I pulled my vote off because I was worried about troll hammering. This was on 9/11. I put my vote back on him 9/17 because I was no longer worried about troll hammering and he was just acting completely anti town. Right after that is when the BBT jumped on Csareo(bringing to L-4 I believe) and the votes started racking up on the counter wagon.

A major component of you removing your BBT vote, and then being comfortable with revoting BBT 50 some odd posts later, is your concern about Boon's hammer. But Boon had already voted BBT in Post 467. Thoughts?


(3) In faulting BBT for pursuing a lurker (scrambles, I believe), you said:

BBT however is now pushing on a lurker when we have plenty of scuminess to deal with.

When I asked you to clarify about who were these other scum candidates that BBT could have gone after (Post 916), you said:

4. The scumminess was BBT sheeping Greyice and Greyice throwing down a BS LaL arguement. We also had the whole AK vs Wake thing to go through which I felt was Town vs Town but I thought we might be able to analyze the other participants to see if any thing scummy ended up coming out of it.

So, if I'm to understand you correctly, you thought BBT was scummy for pursuing a lurker rather than other players who were suspicious, but those other suspicious players were (1) BBT himself, and then (2) Anatole and Wake, who had been having an internet screaming fight, but which you recognize looks like a town v. town situation.

Do I have that correct?

You are correct on #1, I never did give an overview. For some reason I thought I did which means I wrote something up and then forgot to submit it. I will give reads on everybody today.

2. You are not correct that I unvoted BBT in 535. I unvoted in 391. I was V/LA on the weekend as always and didn't want to leave my vote out there. I put it back on BBT after the quickhammer threat was gone.
(2A: Jumping on a wagon without doing any research at all on it's validity was scummy as all hell. Just slightly scummier than making the false allegation to begin with.)
(2B: Somewhat related but not answering a specific question, BBT is the best noose candidate because he is anti-town at best [and I'm pretty sure scum]. Also, it will put to rest this whole neighbor thing that we have gone over 15 times and will end up eating up all of day 2. If he lives it's all going to be @TTH, what did BBT put in the chat over night? @BBT What did TTH put in the chat? Nah uh, I don't believe you!!! I can tell you, if that happens, anybody who still cares will give up and the scum will walk all over this game.)
3. It's going to hard to explain the whole AK/Wake situation to someone who wasn't in the middle of it, but the timing of all the posts coming in fast and heavy and a number of others posted in the middle of it commenting on the fight and suddenly, out of nowhere was BBT going let's get a lurker! It killed the flow and commentary at that point. It felt random and forced. I would have preferred a "@Lurker, what is your take on the current AK vs Wake situation" vs a "Let's get him, he's lurking!"

Side note, thanks for the post at 1332. I disagree that the reactionary votes are likely town. I really think he did everything he could to get a wagon going and the best he could do was the Csareo "slip" which I don't think was really a slip. But, then again, there are 2 easy ways to find out if it was indeed a slip. If Csareo or BBT flip scum, we'll know the truth.

[Doogal121]

I don't get the Dougal scumreads

Lowest contributor after JA. Serious lurking.

I also really liked GC's 1444.

Meta me. This is my style and I've yet to be scum. All my games are in my siggy.

[Doogal121]

Grey/jagged: Grey did scummy as hell LaL, replaced out and Jagged came in. Only 2 people were scum reading him, myself and AK and he comes out of the box and scum reads me out of no where and hasn't contributed much else. First town thing he did was offer to hammer in post 1268 to avoid a NL

TTH: I'm getting a town read, she seems very newbish and afraid to push. I feel she's in over her head with this whole neighbor thing. Some have suggested that she work everything out with BBT in the night chat, but I don't know that she has the skills to do so. I appreciate her unvoting so Fakegod could read, that seemed townish.

Flubber: Leaning town, not very involved, his comments are more observational instead of pressing issues. Also, entertaining as hell and he made me want to start an arguement with Csareo just so Baby Jesus would be smothered.

Wake: Strong town, asking deep questions, even though they were already asked. A little flakey as of late.

Rambler/Green Crayons: Rambler did nothing. Green Crayons, slight town read, I appreciate being probed but I believe he is wrong on the BBT. Could be a simple mistake, could be scum trying to gather a counter to save BBT. I don't know yet.

Massive: Don't know. I'm not really getting a read off of him. I think it's because his style is different from most here. If he's scum, he's not really a wagon pusher.

AK: I still think after the whole wake vs AK thing that AK was town.

Rufflig: Meh.. Pushed on BBT, then switched over to push Csareo, is currently waiting for the next wagon to push... Slight Scumread

BBT: Scum, needs to hang.

Boon: Null on him, didn't like the trollhammer stance, appreciated him backing down from him, not willing to lynch him today to see if a 3'rd party nightkills him.

Csareo: Frustrated town.

Scrambles/0MPH/Fake God: Town read. Jumped in the middle and unfortunately didn't get the feel for the flow early on. @Fakegod, can I take you up on the self vote against BBT? If you switch over to BBT and he comes up town, I will happily self vote and leave it on myself unless you direct me to move it elsewhere on D2.

[Doogal121]

So, my 2 big scum reads and a null of mine are now on the boons wagon. Hmm...

[Doogal121]

I know rite?

[Doogal121]

Can somebody explain to me how day 2 isn't just going to be @TTH/@BBT "Wat happaned on ur PT" for 50 more pages?

[Doogal121]

Boon's claim sounds very dodgy to me, I don't believe him.

@Doogal, you said my scumread on you came out of nowhere. What does that even mean? And I don't know what you mean by your last post. Are you giving that as a reason to lynch BBT?

When you replaced in, you said I was scummy without pointing to anything specific. That's what I meant by come out of nowhere. As for my last post, I mean I believe BBT is scum and he will cloud day 2 with all this neighbor nonsense. I don't want to be rude, but I don't think that TTH has the skills necessary to shake him down one way or the other overnight. (@TTH, I don't think that I have the skills either just responding to some who have suggested we let him live and you can figure him out overnight).

That being said, I am willing to accept Jagged as a lynch as I read his spot as scum after LaL and Jagged hasn't done much to change my viewpoint.

I will be V/LA in 2.75 hours for the weekend. If intent to hammer is not received on BBT before then, I will move my vote to Jagged.

[Doogal121]

Seriously, how about you guys "accept lynches" on people with giant cases against them, and not dump your vote based on some throwaway baloney from the beginning of the day? After 66 pages, you would think you'd have better criteria to choose from.

I would be happy to accept a BBT lynch.

[Doogal121]

Going V/LA now. After all this, I need to leave my vote on BBT.

[Doogal121]

VOTE: jagged toaster

[Doogal121]

STAHP!!!! We are not bringing up another person to the noose to force them to claim. We have 5 claims already, pick one and hang them.

Firstly, let me discuss TTH vengeful ability. It is anti town. Period. Even if TTH lets everybody else discuss on who she uses it on, we still have to A: Kill a townie to use it and B: We lose all vote counts on the target and C: We have to make the decision on who to kill will less info then if we waited for the next noose to come by. I’d rather analyze all the flips first and then make smart decisions then just shoot randomly.

BBT: I’m having a real hard time with this claim HOWEVER I do not believe we should kill him now. If he is not lying, eventually we’ll have a counterclaim or possibly a night kill of his mason buddy that will make him confirmed town in my eyes.

Csareo-Titus: VT claim, seems townie, waiting to see more for Titus and looking forward to doing VCA.

Boons: Tracker claim is somewhat reasonable, let’s see what happens tonight.

Jagged: VT Claim, doesn’t seem townie, let’s hang him sooner rather than later

@Green, BBT, TTH Seriously? Another wagon? Come on!!!!! (Jagged, I forgive you for jumping on this for self preservation purposes)

[Doogal121]

@jagged: Your slot was scummy before you came in (not your fault) however, there wasn’t much pushing and questioning and such after you came in. All your time spent on the fence is making you look like opportunistic scum.

@GC: Every claim helps the scum, no? So, with 2 days to deadline and 5 people who have already claimed (and one you are more than happy to see hang, Csareo/Titus), you start a new wagon. What are you going to do if he gets to L-1 with 12 hours to the deadline and he claims cop? Or, knowing this game, 1 shot BP/Vig/Doc. Or VT? The town move to make is to go back, make your case on Csareo again and push like hell.

[Doogal121]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Technically, that's 2 wagons, since Greyice and JA are the same person. How about we get a flip on JA and see how scummy myself, flubber and boon are? You up for that BBT?

[Doogal121]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Technically, that's 2 wagons, since Greyice and JA are the same person. How about we get a flip on JA and see how scummy myself, flubber and boon are? You up for that BBT?

OK, my bad.

Two wagons on three separate occasions. Pretty much the only time you're not all voting together is when any of you have unvoted.

I think I would be much happier to lynch scum. How does that sound to you?

Sounds great. Tell me why pointy toaster isn't scum.

[Doogal121]

Back end of wagon is scummy.

Tell my why sharp microwave isn't scummy.

[Doogal121]

@TTH, I don't mean to sound rude but please don't answer for BBT, his answer on this will help us for day 2 when we are doing VCA and flip associations.

@BBT, you have just admitted that JA's flip will help your associated reads come day 2. And we have already established that a claim from AK will only help scum. So, why not put your vote where your mouth is and vote JA. Or tell me why you know he isn't scum, Since you implied that he isn't at 2428. Tell me why you think that.

[Doogal121]

@Massive: You haven't even gotten to the fun part yet. Srsly. I'm not screwing with you. It involves somebody claiming vengeful and suggesting a gambit. Wanna take a guess before you read further?

[Doogal121]

So, here's where I'm at right now;

Town

AK
Rufflig
Massive
Wake
---------
TTH
Flubber
Csareo

Null

GreyICE
Doogal121
Rambler

Scum

scrambles
Boonskiies

One of my null reads is prob scum as well.

Tell me how AK went from your top town read to scum.

Associative reads are bad with no flips. Just saying.

Great, lets lynch serrated dishwasher and get some associative reads.

OK, well I don't know what the fuck to do.

I can jump on a JA wagon if that's what we need.

PEdit - No, I don't know what you mean FG

So, you are OK with hanging JA on Saturday

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

And you make the vote. WHY DID YOU GET OFF THIS WAGON?

[Doogal121]

@BBT: WHY WERE YOU WILLING TO BRING JA to L-1 AND THEN HOP OFF? 2 Days ago you were cool with a JA lynch, why aren't you now?

[Doogal121]

@Massive: Please have a beer or 2 before you continue. Might I even suggest a nice bourbon on the rocks....?

[Doogal121]

@Doogal, I replaced in, refused to push through either of the two static wagons and I'm opportunistic scum?

Surely you can understand why someone would have trouble reading this ridiculous game? I have seen almost no scumhunting or pushing from you either.

Ask BBT if I've been pushing.

I'm taking a break from this game. The obvious manipulation is starting to piss me off. Why can't people step back, see the big picture, and see how and where all of the votes are being manipulated? Nope, we're gonna mislynch. Town majority almost always does that. And then I'm gonna tell you I told you so, and impart some well-deserved condescension towards those who rammed through a bad lynch.

I'll be back Day 2, unless someone explodes.

Wake, what do think of BBT running JA up to L-1 and then jumping off the wagon? And refusing to answer to why he did it? Wake, I agree that there is something going on in BBT/TTH land but I really think the time to figure out what is really going on is day 2. Do you disagree? Do you think that you would be able to get a BBT/TTH lynch to happen in the next 24 hours?

[Doogal121]

If TTH doesn't die tonight, but someone else does, I'll be gunning for her tomorrow. Even if I'm right but now one else is aware yet, at least I'll have bragging rights for figuring it out first. If no kill happens I may be inclined to believe her.

But why would Scum allow a Mason-Neighbor to stay alive? Or a Vengeful Neighbor that could be a problem late game? Them not dying will betray their words this game.

Why? A, they are an easy mislynch if you stay alive and tunnel them and can get a couple more people on board and B: they only have one kill and 3 claimed PRs to go after. And, they could always take a gamble and go for an unclaimed person and see if they hit a PR. But that is all WIFOM.

[Doogal121]

If there is a Cop, DO NOT risk crumbing, unless absolutely worth it.

That's how BBT got nailed in that one Micro we were in.

Perhaps the "don't crumb" idea would have been better posted before we got to 100 pages.

One of the things that bother me the most is that I've posted more than 377 posts (sans Csareo the most active player here), yet Rufflig, Flubber, massive, and Doogal all have less than 100 posts. I'm not counting Titus or Jagged because they replaced in later. The game has over 2,000 posts.

I know some say that activity and post count aren't indicative of alignment, but seriously, I'm supposed to turn a blind eye?

You got into fights which is why your vote count is so high. Massive and myself I believe are contributing greatly in a small number of posts. Flubber I would classify as an active lurker and rufflig is almost disappeared.

[Doogal121]

@wake, I'd still love to hear about your viewpoint on BBT hoping off the JA wagon at L-1...

[Doogal121]

@ Wake: This sums up most of it. He voted on Saturday and jumped off to the AK wagon on Sunday as JA was at L-1

So, here's where I'm at right now;

Town

AK
Rufflig
Massive
Wake
---------
TTH
Flubber
Csareo

Null

GreyICE
Doogal121
Rambler

Scum

scrambles
Boonskiies

One of my null reads is prob scum as well.

Tell me how AK went from your top town read to scum.

Associative reads are bad with no flips. Just saying.

Great, lets lynch serrated dishwasher and get some associative reads.

OK, well I don't know what the fuck to do.

I can jump on a JA wagon if that's what we need.

PEdit - No, I don't know what you mean FG

So, you are OK with hanging JA on Saturday

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

And you make the vote. WHY DID YOU GET OFF THIS WAGON?

[Doogal121]

I think my best chance of finding scum is out of the pool of: massive, Jagged Appliance, Doogal, and Anatole.

\

TTH, how is the wagon "scum-ridden" if three of the four people you recently said were likely scum are not on it? Also, FakeGod isn't on this list at all.

I never said my vig pool matched up perfectly with my scumreads. When I say the wagon is scum-ridden, I'm specifically referring to somewhere in the (Rufflig, Boonskies, Flubbernugget, and Doogal) grouping.

If anyone's getting scum protection from wagons now, I think it's Boonskiies. And Doogal is doing an excellent job contributing to that. This post is probably what bothers me the most:

STAHP!!!! We are not bringing up another person to the noose to force them to claim. We have 5 claims already, pick one and hang them.

Firstly, let me discuss TTH vengeful ability. It is anti town. Period. Even if TTH lets everybody else discuss on who she uses it on, we still have to A: Kill a townie to use it and B: We lose all vote counts on the target and C: We have to make the decision on who to kill will less info then if we waited for the next noose to come by. I’d rather analyze all the flips first and then make smart decisions then just shoot randomly.

BBT: I’m having a real hard time with this claim HOWEVER I do not believe we should kill him now. If he is not lying, eventually we’ll have a counterclaim or possibly a night kill of his mason buddy that will make him confirmed town in my eyes.

Csareo-Titus: VT claim, seems townie, waiting to see more for Titus and looking forward to doing VCA.

Boons: Tracker claim is somewhat reasonable, let’s see what happens tonight.

Jagged: VT Claim, doesn’t seem townie, let’s hang him sooner rather than later

@Green, BBT, TTH Seriously? Another wagon? Come on!!!!! (Jagged, I forgive you for jumping on this for self preservation purposes)

With the amount of "trouble" Doog claims to have with the BBT claim (which is 100%

instantly

verifiable), I'm absolutely stunned that all he has to say about Boonskiies is that his claim is "reasonable."

Boon's

claim is completely unverifiable until later, there's an easy escape hatch ("I tracked (so-and-so) and s/he didn't go anywhere"), and even if we

can

verify that Boon is actually a tracker, that doesn't mean he's town-aligned.

With all the conspiracy theories about BBT and I floating around the thread, it's positively mind-boggling that all the skepticism gets lost somewhere when it comes to Boonskiies' claim. Where's the black hole drawing in all the "nipping curiosity" when it comes to examining Boon's claim?

You are right, we know that the tracker ability cannot be tested unless he says "I tracked X" and later X claims and calls BS on it. What I mean by believable is that I would expect a tracker in a normal game just like I would expect doc or cop or jailkeeper and such. Neighbor/Mason isn't what I was expecting. Vengeful neighbor also wasn't what I was expecting. As for BBT being 100% instantly verifiable, can you tell me how we can do that without a counter claim and one of them flipping? Again, I don't think we should kill him today but I don't know that I believe his claim or your claim for that matter.

As for the vengeful, can you explain why you thought it was a good idea to sacrifice yourself in order to get a kill when we just can lynch somebody without killing you in the process? Assuming you aren't lying, we have to mislynch you in order to get a kill. Again, assuming you aren't lying, I'd much rather have you around contributing, voting and maybe using your ability later on if scum decides to lynch you and you are really sure of who the scum pushing against you are.

[Doogal121]

Doogal

: Do you think BBT is faking the mason claim? Yes or no?

I can say with 100% certainty that I am absolute sure that he might be faking it. Again, if he is, I believe we test it later down the road. Eventually it will make sense for his buddy to claim (or for them to be NK) and then will have a 100% townie in our mists. There is no reason to test it tonight.

[Doogal121]

Well now we'll have two pages of discussion of Csareo being force-replaced.

Only 300 more to go! Ur almost home!

[Doogal121]

How is that not an answer. I think he might be faking it.

[Doogal121]

@Massive. 393 had Boons with his "Hammertime!" policy, 535 is after he dropped it.
1112, BBT, 0MPH, GC and Ruffig were scummy. GC is now null, BBT is scummy (backing off due to mason claim), FG I'm waiting for a flip to see if I can figure out. Ruffig isn't playing anymore.

My townread on csareo was due to it becoming a counterwagon to BBT.

[Doogal121]

How is that not an answer. I think he might be faking it.

Well of course he

might

be faking it. It's within the realm of

possibility

. That's obvious, though. Stating the obvious doesn't tell me anything and that's not what I was asking.

Here, let's me preempt all future unhelpful comments right here and now:

FOS: Everyone

Because you signed up for this game, you

may

have gotten a scum role PM.

In this particular circumstance and given the information we have, do you think BBT is lying? How about Boonskiies?

If you held a gun to my head and told me one was true and one was false, I would think BBT was lying and Boonskiies isn't.

[Doogal121]

So TTH, you're now not going to use your claimed ability to Venge someone?

Which Day are you going to activate it? The day when Town mislynches for game?

... Oh but of course, Wake. You know me. I want the

ultimate

power trip.

For someone who advertises that he's played this game for years, you don't seem to understand how the vengeful modifier works. I don't activate it, everyone else does. If activated, you all should have a pretty good idea of who I'm going to shoot. I'm going to leave it at that.

If you held a gun to my head and told me one was true and one was false, I would think BBT was lying and Boonskiies isn't.

Then I think you're crazy. And probably scum.

You are probably right on the first case. Wrong on the second.

You still haven't answered why mislynching you intentionally to use your vengeful ability would be beneficial in any way. We gain a kill at the expense of a mislynch and that kill comes without the information granted by VCA and without the time to analyze the past posts for associations.

[Doogal121]

Alright, Doogal. Once again from the top.

Your argument is that

scum

would've made the

verifiable

claim while

town

would've made the

much-less-verifiable

claim. In other words, BBT, who made a claim that

would leave him high and dry down the road

, is scum while Boonskiies, who made a claim that

can't be verified

and whose results can be easily faked, is town.

Do I have this all correct, or is there something I'm missing?

You have that correct. I believe that BBT would lie about mason in order to avoid being hung and later on, have a scum partner also claim mason. I don't believe there are actually masons in this game. We'll find out.

He's saying in that situation, you're trading what would be a confirmed mislynch for a kill without much to go on. IE. probably another dead townie.

Well...

That's nice, I suppose? I still don't know what you want me to say about that.

If you want to lynch me and tell me to

not

use my vengeshot, you've got another thing coming, Mister.

Nobody said to lynch you and have you hold your shot, everybody is saying, if you are indeed town, the last thing you should do is lynch yourself so you can use your shot. You pushed for your own lynch just so you could use your power. Why? How does lynching a townie help us, shot or no? Why can't we just lynch the scummy player you would have shot and have you around so you can still use your vote and give us reads and help point out what we have missed? How is killing you, so somebody the town decides dies, a good idea?

[Doogal121]

Nobody said to lynch you and have you hold your shot, everybody is saying, if you are indeed town, the last thing you should do is lynch yourself so you can use your shot. You pushed for your own lynch just so you could use your power. Why? How does lynching a townie help us, shot or no? Why can't we just lynch the scummy player you would have shot and have you around so you can still use your vote and give us reads and help point out what we have missed? How is killing you, so somebody the town decides dies, a good idea?

Who said I was letting "the town" decide anything? I'm not obligated to shoot leading wagon candidates nor am I bound by any kind of democratic vote.

If you see me ask a specific player about a read, it's because I value his opinion. It's not because I'm letting popular opinion dictate my shot.

You were soliciting input when you voted yourself on Friday. You still haven't told me why the loss of a townie makes a shot at scum worth it.

Are you a vengeful scum trying to pull some gambit?

If we have a vig on our team, this is the shot people.

[Doogal121]

Doogal, your thoughts on the intense fight to keep TTH and BBT from getting lynched.

The intent?

I was reading TTH as lean town for a while, but not willing to believe that BBT may be lying is getting dumb. We'll need some flips to go on, but Day 2 will probably be focused on BBT/TTH again. TTH is white knighting BBT way too strong for my tastes.

[Doogal121]

Can BBT tell us the # of posts in the Mason PT?

The timestamps? The quotes?

It's in the thread somewhere, already went over.

[Doogal121]

Flubber, Boon and Doogal have been on 3 separate wagons together so far, GreyIce, myself and now JA. Their voting has been very similar in this game, I would bet there is at least one scum in those three, possibly two.

Right here.

[Doogal121]

Can BBT tell us the # of posts in the Mason PT?

The timestamps? The quotes?

It's in the thread somewhere, already went over.

Neighbor PT or Mason PT?

Mason. Iso him and start at 1802.

[Doogal121]

TTH is white knighting BBT way too strong for my tastes.

FG whiteknighting TTH.

Thoughts?

Possibly, but more likely town trying to stop an absolutely stupid and unnecessary gambit.

[Doogal121]

This day needs to end.

You've said it multiple times already. End it. You have that power.

[Doogal121]

@Mod: I'm V/LA every weekend. It's in my siggy.

Noted, thanks! ~ Bert

Prod dodge, a lot to get caught up on.

[Doogal121]

Every time I look over this game I just can't figure out why, out of all the people out there, would they pick GC over BBT/TTH/Boons. TTH is dangerous with the vengeful ability (and it becomes stronger at the end game). If they kill BBT, they end both a mason and a neighborhood in one go. And Boons is a tracker, which is a real threat to them. Why GC?

[Doogal121]

@BBT, I'm not sure how I feel. Besides lurking, what is the case against him?

[Doogal121]

I agree, he seemed very sheepy, but the wagons formed for valid reasons. I know I was pretty sure you were scum. And I was pretty sure JA was scum. So, it's hard to fault Flubber and Boon for doing the same thing I was doing. I'm still not sure why GC as town was trying to start yet another wagon instead of picking out of the 5 we had.

I'm starting to have a real problem understanding that TTH vengeful gambit and still haven't seen why it was good idea. Not a single person who was for it has explained why it was a good idea. I'm thinking that TTH is vengeful scum and may have been trying to get an early shot off. If that is the case, we would need to have some type of vig to offset her and I don't think we do. I was hoping that a vig would have taken her out in the night. God, I'm just confused as all hell.

[Doogal121]

Prod dodge, partially because I'm lost, partially because I hope the VCA will shed some light on the situation.

[Doogal121]

Ok, back from the world of the dead. Going to start with my current reads, then I'll hit the questions posed earlier in the thread.

TTH:Not sure. I wonder if Scum left BBT alive so TTH could manipulate him after hours. A TTH scum flip would also Conf Town Wake. Willing to Lynch.

Flubber:BBT makes an interesting case regarding the timing and lack of reasoning. Willing to lynch

Wake: Null/scum. He's reading half the thread, picking fights with random people and then rehashing stuff already covered. It's no longer being helpful to town. Not willing to lynch because, if he is scum, he's doing a real crap job of getting people on board with him to get some mislynches in.

FG: "Let Titus Work" :2 minutes later: "Screw it, Titus sucks!"…. FG and Titus seem like opposite alignment, leave both alone for now and see if more info comes out. Of the two, would rather lynch FG.

Massive: Got a town read as he was covering the missed weekend and his thoughts mimicked my own.

AK: Still leaning town.

Rufflig: Still no read, not enough interaction.

BBT: Conf Town

Boons: Don't know why GC was picked over him last night. Wondering if the whole "hammertime" thing was just to setup scum hammering. Willing to Lynch to test

Titus: Thank you for the VCA. Still reading this slot as town.

[Doogal121]

I will address this tomorrow.

Wake, still waiting on this.

@Boonskiies: A "No result" indicates being roleblocked.

Tracker:

Some moderators return

no result

when the Tracker's target does not go anywhere at Night; this is indistinguishable from the message that would be received if the Tracker was

Roleblocked

.

However, this is not

Normal

and tends to be seen in role madness games as a means of introducing more confusion.

Feel free to double check with the mod as DP has some interesting quirks.

So, Boons, are you saying you were role-blocked? Have you checked with Bert/DP on this?

Rufflig's output recently has been pretty good. I feel better about him than I did yesterday.

I think there's a really good chance one of Titus and Boon is scum.

AK, I agree, upon second review, I'm feeling much better about Ruff.

So, my 2 big scum reads and a null of mine are now on the boons wagon. Hmm...

huh

your 2 big scumreads (BBT & Jagged) are confirmed to be town-aligned

your thoughts?

It's clear that I had no idea what was going on yesterday. Jagged's slot did that whole LaL and then BBT sheeped it without question. If that isn't scummy, then I don't know what is.

[Doogal121]

AK and Doogal did you like FG's play better or GC's?

I liked FG's play better, but I can see it being scum. Especially as he at one point basically said the 2 wagons we had to choose from was JA or myself and asked AK which one to pick. Forces a counter wagon into 2 townies and it could be set up to make AK look bad later.

[Doogal121]

ah well

town is in strong position nevertheless

I just need to identify one more town player, and town will auto-win.

FG, can you elaborate on this statement? And, what lynch would you recommend in order to confirm another townie? The only one I can think of is Lynching TTH and that could confirm Wake....

[Doogal121]

@FG Can we have those townreads pls?

[Doogal121]

He says he has enough townreads. I'd like to know what they are.

[Doogal121]

@Wake. If TTH flips Scum, I think the "How do we handle a problem like Wake?" slip from the neighbor thread pretty much confirms you as town, does it not?

@Titus. I believe she may in fact be vengeful, but vengeful mafia. I have believed that but there would need to be some type of vig on our side to balance it out.

VOTE: TTH
Reasons
1. Stupid D1 vengeful Gambit.
2. Scumflip confirms Wake as town.
3. Why have masons and neighbors in a game if the neighbors were town aligned as well?
4. If she flips scum, we'll have a ton of associative tells from the stupid D1 gambit (Who do I shoot from the below list....)

[Doogal121]

5. May be using the neighborhood to influence BBT

[Doogal121]

TTH
Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:19 pm
I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion). To my understanding, he's a pretty divisive player.

Have you played with Wake88 before and how do you go about tackling a read like that?

@Wake. Why did she pick you out of all people? Would this post look out of place in a scum PT?

[Doogal121]

It was how I remembered it.

Now, assuming she flips scum, her post looks more like it was put in the wrong PT, no? Therefore we can also confirm that you are not in her scum PT, right? Wouldn't that confirm you as town?

If I were scum, I would know that the vengeful claim is valid, right? Why would I advocate a mislynch on her when we could just have her night killed?

[Doogal121]

If he were Scum, and did manage to lead a successful mislynch on a Vengeful Townie, he could force her to use her ability and possibly kill another Townie.

There is more of a likelihood she could end up Venging a Townie than a Mafioso.

@Wake. Let's assume I'm scum for a second. If you were TTH, who would you attack as vengeful? Probably the person who started your wagon, no?

@FG, She's a new player and wouldn't have access to Scum PT during the day. I think she tried to gambit just to use her power.

[Doogal121]

Wake, I already said I misremembered what she said. What more do you want me to say?

[Doogal121]

My case against TTH, in book form.

I’m guessing what bugs me is that she claimed vengeful. Vengeful is something you should never claim as either town or scum. As FG suggested, as Mafia she could have done a day 2 gambit, claimed cop and done real damage. As town, she should have stayed quiet, waited to Mylo and then nailed the hammerer. Since she did neither of those, we have to assume she didn’t play it optimally, regardless of her alignment. Now, I have 2 reasons I want to lynch her. 1, she is scum. 2, we can win the game if she flips scum.

Evidence for the first point. 1. I still think her earlier post (quoted below so there is no misrepresention) didn’t make sense in the neighbor flow and was probably a scum slip and would make more sense in the scum PT flow. 2. She is a bit of a lurker, hasn’t really put too much out there pushing wise and is sheeping a little. In fact, she’s barely been here day 2. My guess is the scum PT is going to be a great deal of “pls don’t talk anymore” posts to TTH. 3. She was behind that awful vengeful gambit day one to try to get to use her power. Nobody, not anybody, has told me why they thought that was a good idea yet. Vengeful is an anti-town ability and to suggest losing a townie to get scum maybe is just dumb beyond belief. Feels more like scum wanting to seem important than town trying to win.

Now, the associative reads part (all of this assumes she flips scum). 1. We have a hard confirm of Wake as town as the topic of the below reference PT post. We have a soft confirm of the following, (AK, Myself, Massive). If you include broken toaster in the mix, these are all people she was trying to venge. She also voted Boons at one point. So, her flipping scum gives associative town reads to AK/Myself/Wake/Massive/Boons. That should be enough that we can lynch everybody else and still be ahead. I’m assuming there are 2 more scum in this game, of the remaining, I would say, in likelhood from most to least scummiest is Fakegod/Rufflig/Flubber/Titus. She was hard sheeping Fakegod toward the end, especially with the “If you say JA is scum, then I’ll vote”. It’s almost like a new scum player begging for help from an experienced scum buddy.

@Everybody, where am I wrong?

PS @TTH, I volunteer to be vengekilled for putting this forward. If I am indeed wrong, please kill me.

TTH
Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:19 pm
I haven't had any games with him, but I've read a couple games with Wake88 and I've seen his posts around the forum (particularly Mafia Discussion). To my understanding, he's a pretty divisive player.

Have you played with Wake88 before and how do you go about tackling a read like that?

[Doogal121]

Boons

you have one job and one job only

it's to get a guilty

do you understand me?

if you get a guilty, I guarantee that town will win

Rufflig Vs FG is Scum vs Scum, TTH is in on it.

[Doogal121]

I have no idea why that quote came through on my quick reply....

[Doogal121]

Rufflig Vs FG is Scum vs Scum, TTH is in on it.

I'm 99% sure TTH and FG are scumbuddies, 65% sure that Rufflig is scum as well. This whole 1 vs 1 thing is whole bunch on scummy BS. FG, why do you get to decide who the town will or will not lynch?

Have you considered that if I really did wanted to lynch TTH and wanted to influence her shot,

that I could have easily done it?

TTH was townreading me above anyone else at the time of that VC.

It would have been trivial for me to do so, yet I had not, and

I'm never going to advocate TTH lynch in this game.

Yep, because you are both scum buddies.

you should also explain why you're not voting for me or Rufflig when you believe it to be a guaranteed scum lynch

I'd rather it be TTH so we can get all those confirmed townies as I expressed earlier. But, if you insist:
VOTE: Imposter Diety L-3 I believe

[Doogal121]

I thought I read somewhere that someone thought it is possibly scum vs scum, but I can't find that post now. Does anyone else believe that there is a possibility that they're semi fighting each other for one of them to get town cred? I feel FakeGod would do something like that, but I don't feel Rufflig would. That being said, Rufflig would defend himself if need be and would in turn take down a partner. I've seen Rufflig replace into a scum slot, which was previously inhabited by Wake, and he's very literal and uses a lot of logic and sense as scum. Again, RUFFLIG SOUNDS VERY REASONABLE AND MAKES GREAT TOWNY LIKE POSTS AS SCUM.

Boons, you have a link for that game handy?

[Doogal121]

Correcting my vote:
VOTE: Fake God

[Doogal121]

BBT, Titus, Doogal, and Wake

: Please vote me.

Happily, as soon as you explain why doing so helps our win condition?

[Doogal121]

VOTE: TTH

That's the second time she's done this gambit without any explanation. I've had enough.

[Doogal121]

@BBT: Shes scum, she's trying to pull heat off her scum buddy FG. It's not going to work.

[Doogal121]

BOONS

1. TTH claimed at L-4. That's hardly "under pressure" or "about to be lynched" as you keep calling it.

Can you explain why she claimed? If you are vengeful, you keep your mouth shut. I suspect it's because she's inexperienced and wanted to help out her scum buddies by getting an extra town kill on D1.

2. As I said, vengeful scum is UNHEARD OF. Maybe some bastard mod used them in some theme game a million years ago, but

I know the NRG meta

. There is no way in hell that they would allow a role that

punishes town for lynching scum

.

Ok, find me another game with a mason neighbor in it. We already know this game is wacky as all hell. Vengeful Scum is normal (according to the wiki). It's just a question of balance now and we don't know enough about the setup to speculate on that yet.

3. If she is not vengeful, but is scum, then thanks to her claim she

AUTO-LOSES

if she ever reaches 3p LyLo. Normally,

scum has 2/3 chances of winning a 3p LyLo

. SO WHY WOULD SHE DO SOMETHING THAT INTENTIONALLY LOWERS HER CHANCES OF WINNING?

Already discussed in point 1. She obviously didn't think about when the optimal time to claim is.

Above are

FACTS

, and therefore my alignment doesn't matter. TTH

WAS

at L-4 when she claimed. Vengeful scum simply are

NOT USED

in Normal games. And IT'S A FACT that

she will be auto-lynched at 3p LyLo, thanks to her claim

.

EVEN if you think that she is stupid VI scum who's doing things that hurt her team, and I am NOT getting a VI impression at all from her playstyle, WHY would you gamble on a some wishful thinking of yours, when all you have to do is

nail her scumbuddies

? (Did I mention that she AUTO-LOSES

if she is the last scum standing

?)

Here are some other facts. She has claimed vengeful AND self voted AND come right out and said she's had enough with the trying to scum hunt, she gives up and she's useless to town. Why hasn't she been policy lynched yet? I'll tell you why. Scum are protecting her. That's why.

I also would like to point out that she did this whole "woe is me" self vote crap right after the whole FG vs Rufflig 1 on 1 that wasn't going in the direction that FG wanted it to....

She is new scum, tried a gambit that failed, is trying to cover her tracks and figures she would be better in the noose than FG because FG has more experience and, I'm guessing, that FG has some type of power role, like roleblocker. What she doesn't realize is, that once she is confirmed scum, all of her previous activity is going to be gone over with a fine tooth comb and her buddies will be apparent.

[Doogal121]

FakeGod, at the risk of sounding like I'm buddying, I will say that I very much hope you can rise above the ridiculousness that's been clouding this game.

I will do no such thing until I hear FakeGod's take on the game.

FakeGod, massive is completely absent from your analysis. What's your read on him?

It would be foolhardy to lead a lynch against 'Boon, if two players that have recent experience with him are independently reluctant to lynch him.

Completely independent of meta, how sure are you on this Boonskiies read, FakeGod?

It seems that I'm about to become a distraction to FakeGod. I'm contemplating claiming and taking the lynch for today.

So, again,

what are you doing

?

I'm trying to teach you to be a better player.

TBH, I think you're not as good as you think you are.
Like many others, I'm scum reading you, and if I were scum (and you were town), I would see you as an easy mislynch on D3.
I'm simply letting your bullshit slide on account of me scumreading BBT.

I'm not for a second going to pretend that I'm any good at this game, but I think I can recognize competency when I see it.

FakeGod is competent and I think everyone could stand to listen to him.

I think I should shoot massive

especially

if we are to believe Boonskiies really is town.

I would shoot Jagged Appliance if FakeGod thinks he's scum or if it helps FakeGod read Anatole (who I think has a good chance of being scum, but I'm not sure).

FakeGod, could you please expound on your Anatole read?

FakeGod, could you please expound on your Anatole read?

FakeGod, I think it would be

really

helpful if you did this.

I think that Anatole townread needs to see the light of day. That's the only way you can really evaluate it: articulate it and see if it tenable.

Flubber or Dougal could be a good shot.

^FakeGod, what do you think about this?

GreenCrayons? Why do you say that name, FakeGod?

I will vote for myself and shoot you before I let you lynch FakeGod, Wake.

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

Back end of wagon is scummy.

Tell my why sharp microwave isn't scummy.

Because I thought GreyICE was town and Jagged Appliance's "fencesitting" might be misunderstood indecisiveness.

FakeGod, are you confident that Jagged Appliance will flip scum?

1983: Oh there's a blind Doogal vote. The amount of people voting for Jagged on one sentence of case is pretty ... impressive? What's the word I'm looking for there?

The word of the day is "scum-ridden".

s-c-u-m-r-i-d-d-e-n

That's why I'm questioning FakeGod on his confidence in this JA lynch, massive.

I would only hammer Jagged if FakeGod said he was confident in this lynch.

FakeGod, do you feel confident in this lynch?

I would only hammer Jagged if FakeGod said he was confident in this lynch.

FakeGod, do you feel confident in this lynch?

Yes.

I believe there is a good chance that Jagged is scum.

Alright, I'll take the leap of faith then.

VOTE: Jagged Appliance

Let me put that in bigger fonts so it doesn't go missed.

I would like to 1v1 Rufflig.

IT'S YOU OR ME SCUMBAG

Vote: Rufflig

Vote: Rufflig

Vote: Rufflig

Vote: Rufflig

Vote: Rufflig

My top priority now is the Fake God read. BBT, where are you on that?

VOTE: Rufflig

FakeGod is still a strong townread and the people voting the Rufflig wagon are far and away more town than the FakeGod wagon.

FG is getting rid of himself by playing scummy. He's acting like a child.

If Boonskiies is your only "real scumread," why is your posting so lethargic? You're vote's not even on him. It doesn't look like you're indecisive or unsure, so I'm trying to figure out what the issue is here.

I think you're trying to stir the pot without actually getting too involved.

Masons alone are very strong. I'm guessing the active (tracker) is fake and there is another passive power role for town. If you're telling the truth it's completely consistent with this but I'm obviously skeptical about that. I think you're more likely scum than vengeful town, but likely not vengeful scum. Possible but unlikely.

I think scum probably have all goons or goons + encryptor - no actives.

FakeGod, what's your thoughts on this post?

Let's make a deal, TTH.

I don't want you to die.

What do you want in return?

That's sweet, Fake God.

But I think I've run my course of usefulness this game.

I disagree.

Please reconsider.

Reality

disagrees with you FakeGod. Objectively, I haven't done anything worthy of note this game and I don't know if I've actually caught out any scum yet. Even if I have, there's not much of a chance of me rallying enough people to get it to lynch. I think I'm doing pretty terribly and I don't think there's an end in sight to my floundering.

This game is like a tangled web to me and at this point, I think the most useful thing I could do would be to give an extra flip.

I don't care about your ability to hunt scum, TTH.

I think you're town, and therefore, your death will hurt town.

I'm dead weight. I'm not that much of a loss.

TTH, it's your turn.

Unvote yourself.

Why should I?

Because your vote is more useful for town somewhere else.

I don't know about that.

[Doogal121]

You couldn't have put that in spoilers?

I'm an old man. Just getting all those quotes together was work for me.

Now get off my lawn! Damn whippersnapper...

[Doogal121]

Actually, I think the details of the PT are especially necessary if she flips scum.

[Doogal121]

She gets lynched, then BBT gets NK, we lose all the semi-private buddying and manipulation that was going on.

[Doogal121]

TTH told you everything.

Read her posts.

Yes. But being able to read it for ourselves will allow us to find inconsistencies and trends that she may not have wanted to point out in her own retelling of the tale.

[Doogal121]

@BBT... You don't see a connection between TTH and FG? After the 6 hundred billion quotes I did earlier?

[Doogal121]

Wow.

[Doogal121]

Doc / BP / or really flaky scum?

[Doogal121]

BBT, before wake comes in the thread, does your prediction of you not dying have anything to do with this?

[Doogal121]

ISO me.

I did. Which post of yours lays out the case against me?

[Doogal121]

@FG, do you have any idea why wasn't there a night kill?

[Doogal121]

So, you just throw a naked vote out there without any discussion of what happened over night and expect us to ISO you to find that you had a hard time thinking that I was town for leading a charge against a claimed vengeful. Am I missing anything?

[Doogal121]

@FG: Nobody died. That was unexpected. Do we have a roleblocker? Doctor? Jailkeeper? BP? If there was a BP and they claim, we can probably make a good guess as to why they were targeted, no? If a RB claims and says who they targeted, boom, we get scum.

How does ignoring what happened help town?

@BBT Thanks for that VCA.

[Doogal121]

I'm not sure why AK isn't being voted yet.

He had 5 townies on his wagon. 5.

Vote AK. Nice, quick D3.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

VOTE: AK

[Doogal121]

Today's lynch needs to be between Flubber, Titus, Doogal and Boon.

In order of most like to lynch it would be; Titus, Flubber, Doogal Boon.

PEdit - Massive, help me.

What happend to AK? He self votes and then gets a pass? And what's with all the self voting going on here? Seriously, if you are town DO NOT SELF VOTE.

[Doogal121]

@BBT: Would you make your case against Titus please?

[Doogal121]

Doc / BP /

or really flaky scum?

Absolutely not. Don't even

try

to be disingenuous here.

It a legitimate question... We have a situation where there are multiple players just popping in and reading without engaging and the mod asked for everybody to PM him to make sure we are still here. This all points to multiple lurkers in the scum team.

[Doogal121]

@BBT: I'm going to be honest here. I pushed you, jagged and TTH. I'm tired of pushing and having it be mislynches. I'm just going to sheep you all day long.

[Doogal121]

I do guarantee that lynching through these players will win us the game.

Doogal121
Flubbernugget
massive
Anatole Kuragin

The Rufflig

FakeGod, how do you feel about this statement now?

It's what I believe in.

@FG
So, do you still believe this? Do you think that myself and massive are the remaining scum?

[Doogal121]

Exactly, I would pretty much always be a 1-shot.

Therefore, if my 1-shot was used up, you thought it would be a good idea to point that out because....

No, I intentionally avoided using the words "1-shot".

I hinted that you were fully bulletproof.

How they hell could a fully BP mason get by any review whatsoever?

[Doogal121]

I do guarantee that lynching through these players will win us the game.

Doogal121
Flubbernugget
massive
Anatole Kuragin

The Rufflig

FakeGod, how do you feel about this statement now?

It's what I believe in.

@FG
So, do you still believe this? Do you think that myself and massive are the remaining scum?

Nevermind, I see you answered this already. (catching up in spurts)

[Doogal121]

@BBT, I'm willing to sheep you, but not on this one.

@Wake, there is no way BBT can be scum. Seriously. He can't. There is no way a mason can be scum in a normal game. None. Unless you think he isn't a mason and are waiting for someone else to counter claim as GC's partner.

[Doogal121]

VOTE: False God

For 1 vs 1 on Ruffing, leading the lynch against Jagged and other things.

[Doogal121]

Hmm.

Doogal, if FG is scum, who's his buddy?

That I'm not sure of. I don't think he would list both of his scum buddies in his "lynch this list and win" list. So that eliminates Massive. Possibly Titus.

[Doogal121]

Mod won't count Doogal's current vote.

VOTE: Fake God, Imposter Diety, False Idol, Violation of the 1'st commandmant, Golden Calf

Bert will count that.

[Doogal121]

...

In 1517 Doogal implies Boonskiies is somewhat of a Townread. At the time he said that, FakeGod in 1466, BBT in 1472, Massive in 1508, and JaggedAppliance in 1510 voted for Boonskiies. Anatole's vote had already been on Boonskiies according to VC 1.12 (1464). So, Doogal, per your 1517 which of those two at that time were your Scumreads, and which one was your Null read? Be honest, because I'll be scouring that section to make sure you're not lying.

That was forever ago, but I'm pretty sure my 2 scum reads were BBT and JA and Massive was my null.

[Doogal121]

Doogal never voted Boonskiies this game.

Yes. I believe the tracker claim.

[Doogal121]

You afraid to engage me, Doogal?

I don't bite. Or ravage. Or stuff like that.

You know, I just answered your question, right?

@Wake, you know what you remind me of? Some guy who watches every 5'th episode of Lost who keeps going "Wait, there's a smoke monster?" "Why is Locke in a wheel chair?" "Wait, so they were off the island but now they are not?" "Who the hell is Ben Linus?"

[Doogal121]

I'm guessing its FG/Titus with possibly a Massive in place of Titus. I believe Boons claim (I don't think he would have bussed AK day 3 because he didn't need to). Wake is probably town but hard to follow with the communication issues.

Willing to sheep you on pretty much anybody other than boons. Also I'm a great mislynch candidate. I will not self vote to make VCA more useful (looking at you @tth) and my flip should point the suspicion where it needs to be, at FG/Titus/Massive.

[Doogal121]

Going against memory here, but Titus showed up, promised to do a huge VCA, did half of one and that included a push on FG. After that FG scrambled and did the whole 1vs1 thing. Then she pretty much disappeared. I think if she were to talk more, she would be forced into a situation where she would have to push against her scum buddy FG and she didn't want to do it. I think that is why she is hiding now.

That being said, I have come up with some crazy ideas but I end up getting stuck in Conf Bias and push on townies (JA/TTH). The only time I got a scummy was when I sheeped you.

I'm a good mislynch for 2 reasons. 1, my crazy theories keep hitting townies, so I'm better as a sheep than a leader. After you are dead tonight (assuming Flubber was the person protecting you) , I'll be useless. 2. FG has launched a couple of opportunistic votes against me, this will put the spotlight on him.

[Doogal121]

Rufflig Vs FG is Scum vs Scum, TTH is in on it.

Should FG flip Town, you are going to die.

I'm OK with that.

[Doogal121]

...

Checked Anatole's ISO.

Not once did he vote for Doogal. All 318 of them.

He had Doogal as Town throughout the game.

This includes 1100, 1463, 1490, 2498, 2507, and 2846.

That could be because I'm town. Jus sayin.

[Doogal121]

@wake. I think I got lost in a double negative there, are you saying that I'm scum because confirmed scum said I was town? But then countering that statement by saying you wouldn't do that if you were scum?

Am I or am I not scum?

[Doogal121]

The following assumes Boon's claim is true.

The way AK tried to push back on Boon when he was under pressure makes me think Boon is town and indeed a tracker.

These are the wagons that ended each day.

Vote Count 1.29

JaggedAppliance(7)

– FakeGod,

Boonskiies

,

Flubbernugget

, Doogal121, Titus,

TellTaleHeart

,

The Rufflig

[/area]

Vote Count 2.15

TellTaleHeart(6)

–

TellTaleHeart

, Titus, Doogal121, Wake88,

Anatole Kuragin

,

Boonskiies

[/area]

Vote Count 3.07

Anatole Kuragin

(5)

– FakeGod, Doogal121,

Boonskiies

, Wake88,

BlueBloodedToffee

[/area]

Titus is the only person not on the AK wagon who was on both the townie wagons.

We should have made D3 last longer, did massive post about AK somewhere because I can't find it.

VOTE: Titus, 10th Roman Emperor, Predecessor to Domition, Opener of the Colosseum.

[Doogal121]

From my perspective, I have damn near solved the game btw just need to look to confirm tonight.

pls elaborate.

[Doogal121]

UNVOTE: Titus

Willing to wait till V/LA over on Friday.

[Doogal121]

VOTE: Massive

[Doogal121]

In case I get hammered when I'm not around - FG/Titus/Massive. In those three are 2 scum.

[Doogal121]

@BBT. I told you I'm going to sheep you. You think the scum team is myself and massive. Ok, I'll vote massive then.

[Doogal121]

Leaving now, will go into more detail tomorrow morning. But the 1 on 1 vs Ruffing, the control on day 1, the pissy fit on day 2.... I don't trust him.

[Doogal121]

Bastages. Farking Iceholes...

Good game baddies.

[Doogal121]

@TTH, don't feel bad, you were learning and this was a rough one. You'll get better and I would be happy to play as your teammate again.