Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]
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outoforder
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?In post 18, Kop wrote:
What do you think of that post?In post 16, outoforder wrote:Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.-
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Because i don't feel like i need to ask you about it. From what i remember playing with you you will make your alignment clear to me before D1 ends even if i didn't prod you in any way. There is also a Rels-specific reason i am not willing to discuss yet.In post 22, hapahauli wrote:
Why aren't you asking me about it?In post 16, outoforder wrote:Hey Rels, when you're around, let me know what you think of the MooginSoosy post.
VOTE: outoforder
But while you're at it, care to elaborate on this; This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.
So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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No it is not an alt. I know hapahauli and Rels from another forum.
Yes.outoforder....is Ooo an acceptable reference to you?
What do you mean by this?In post 29, Creature wrote:So many boring players there.-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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I think, if you are town, you should probably stop leaping into conclusions since you have no possible way of knowing what i think of the post in the first place.In post 32, doomfeathers wrote:[quote="In post 11, [...]
The MooginSoosy post is pretty obviously not serious, so this post inclines me to think outoforder is overeager town if newbie. If alt, maybe not.
[...]
I mean, because in your opinion i should not assume the post was serious that means if i am an experienced player i must be mafia, right? Well fyi i have not said what i think of the post in the first place so your conclusion is invalid.-
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You will get an answer to that if you jsut can wait until Rels answers to me.In post 46, doomfeathers wrote:outoforder wrote:[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum
Ah, but you did see something you thought was AI there or you wouldn't have asked, and since you asked without saying what you thought, I'm willing to bet it was scum-indicative.
To elaborate a little bit further; there is a reason Rels has somewhat earned a nickname, let's call it "mini-outoforder" here, since we both as town think a looot alike regarding certain situations and posts. My question is directed to Rels for a reason that i am trying to get a read on him. For now it's irrelevant what i do think of the post in question and i'd like people to drop it since it's pretty clear to me that you all - if you cling on that - are talking about something you cannot make a decision on in the end since you don't have all the facts. And as i said, i'll elaborate fully on it after i hear from Rels.
Is that fine?-
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It does in a sense that a lot of mislynches happen because of all the information not being on the table and people making hasty judgements. People not being able to answer the accusations etc.. I'd rather have none of it this game. Also it clutters up the thread with nonsense (imagine people talking about how for example person X owning a blue car makes him scum because blue is a scummy color when X has in fact said "i own a car"). And i don't scumread you.In post 47, doomfeathers wrote:[quote="In post 45
Also, what does alignment have to do with leaping to conclusions? I like leaping to conclusions. Are you trying to scare me off with threats of scumreading me?-
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ofc not lol. I am not even asking you to "back off". I am telling you you cannot get any more information about the matter right now so you might want to focus on something else in the meanwhile. When you hear my explanation you can decide if it makes sense or not and then make your decision. As i said, if you are town, right now this matter does not get you anywhere. I am not trying to "flush you off me", i am trying to tell you what you were doing doesn't help the town right now.In post 50, doomfeathers wrote:You asking Rels that question is reasonable. Your insistence that I back off is weird. Would you be opposed to me following up after Rels has answered?-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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Is there a way to see what games you have played here? Secondly, you totally did not vote "randomly". My first post addressed to you still stands, saying "RVS" doesn't really explain anything since your vote was 100% not RVS (as i did explain in my post).In post 63, hapahauli wrote:RVS is the meta here. You should join me in voting scum though.
How do you draw the conclusion that KidAmn was town from all that?
KidAmn is being suicidal. That's a really bad trait for mafia 1/30 of a dayphase into the game. Sure you can do that if you are a bad player and mafia, but it is more likely he'd choose a different approach to the game as a whole as scum imo. Like it's quite clear he hasn't actually quite read any of the posts because otherwise he wouldnt make those arguments in the first place. I think the most likely scenario is he just thinks there "is nothing to read for reals" and he is just throwing shit into something to provoke a reaction or some other shit (what people tend to do - games don't "start" this quickly on many forums, people shitpost the first couple of days especially with 2 weeks day phases).-
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Right. I also have 14 irl days to make a decision. Right now (as per my last post) his explanation is not satisfying at all.In post 64, doomfeathers wrote:
If hapahauli thought you were scum, and knew you don't respond to pressure as scum, why would he pressure you? By your logic, you should be scumreading him.outoforder wrote:doomfeathers does anything else stick out to you other than me atm?-
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Since when does not reading properly equal scum? And since when (when knowing someone does not read properly) does him accusing me of backpedalling equal scum? Like it's pretty clear he has no idea what he is talking about, you disagreeing with my town read on him would be fine but scumreading him???In post 68, hapahauli wrote:Since when does two enthusiastic posts make someone lean town? Town's gonna have a bad time if the bar for innocence is this low.
KidAmn calls the whole thing between myself, OoO, and Creature town. This makes very little sense first of all, since at that point I had posted once, and Creature wasn't interacting much with OoO at all. It was you (doomfeather) and OoO that were doing most of the talking.
Despite calling the whole argument "not productive" and "confusing", he jumps right into it and accuses OoO of backpedalling.
It does not follow that you can call a conversation not productive/confusing, and accuse someone of backpedalling on the basis of that very conversation.-
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Alright, and i am gonna say knowing you it's more likely it comes from mafia!hapahauli than town one.In post 71, hapahauli wrote:In post 66, outoforder wrote: What more of an explanation is there? I looked at the thread, saw a few votes on you, and thought "lel imma gonna vote him."
I gotta read some stuff though, and now i gotta sleep for a couple of hours before work, so that's for tomorrow.-
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I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".-
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Alrighty.
So the first meaningful post i made this game was this post:
I often write posts where my intention is to challenge people to read between the lines and think about why people say what they do rather than what do they say, because i find that important. In this post i was trying to heavily imply that i don't believe RVS is the best way to start the game, nor will i participate. If that is the conclusion one gets from my post, they should automatically assume that they literally gather nothing from voting for me, since (truthfully) i will not feel pressured even if i was mafia, i won't give away my alignment if i am mafia because of some random nonsense votes on me. I obviously understand this is not something like "if you vote for me after that you're scum", not at all, but it STILL gives me information about how people read posts and what do they focus on when reading. In other words, i know what to expect from them in future.In post 11, outoforder wrote:I've always wondered why people actually pick the people they do vote at the start of the game. I don't actually believe anyone ever goes to random.org or rolls a dice or something like that.
Therefore when MooginSoosy votes for me my initial impression is "wow, she definitely did not think about what she just read at all". Obviously she was joking, that's a no-brainer for anyone with any brain, but her post has literally no way of achieving anything at all. Especially when she doesn't know me, and how i play. What if i am a super newbie townie who gets scared of votes on me? What if i get angry because of dumb votes on me? Like even if you "randomly" vote for someone the vote might provoke a "wrong" reaction and a lot of early game reads for you guys who play here - i think - still come from the reactions to the votes, correct?
So what i do conclude, regarding MooginSoosy (and to havingfitz too), is that if they are town they are probably going to be a pain in the ass to convince of anything i think is true because they will not be getting what i am saying. Or they are mafia, who just like to make people possibly annoyed so they can call them out for that later on. Or for some reason they think it's funny to just fuck around and not pay attention to why people write what they do. Now i didn't expect Rels to 100% pick this up, but IF he does pick this up, he is most likely going to be town in this game since his scumgame (while being quite good), lacks "going into depths of posts", and it's impossible to emulate a townie trait like that as mafia since you are playing from a completely different mindset. That's why i painted actually a possibly very telling question into something that looks like very casual. The reason i directed the question to Rels specifically is because he is the ONLY person in the game whose answer, whatever the answer is, might actually tell me something about his alignment. He thinks very alike me when he is town so there is like no way anyone else would have picked up on that. Also based on the above, and knowing Relscould assume(if mafia), that i will need a specific answer from him it boilds down to this:
1) If Rels has put his head 110% into the game and sees what i just explained, i can safely conclude that he is town
2) If Rels makes up some bullshit "this post probably means that", he is probably scum
3) If Rels gives the not-so-in-depth answer of "she was just probably joking", i don't learn anything about his alignment. Which is what happened.
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Now next thing up is KidAm. I honestly believed that writing this:
..to Kop would actually make you people realize i will give you an explanation when i have heard Rels' answer, and then, if someone has something they wanna say about it they do follow up. I didn't think people would actually think like a lot of people apparently do in this game. If i ask someone "What do you think of X", what's the point of telling them (or everyone) what i expect to be a townie answer and/or what do i expect to be a scummy answer? That's just straight up dumb because imagine i am actually poking a mafia and say "Hey, tell me what do you think of X? If you are town you will say Y and if mafia, you'll say Z". What's the point of giving the answers you (will) find townie before the other dude has answered?!?! I never ever backpedalled from anything, nor did i invent any mini-game, other people did that. I have NEVER said "don't ever talk about this" - the only thing i constantly told doomsfeather is that i wanna hear from Rels first and then he can make a decision if i make sense or not. I wasn't refusing to give answers, i was saying i will delay my answer for the reason in the quote above. Somehow this KidAm dude cannot process that. Instead he makes conclusions from my posts, conclusions that make absolutely no sense since i never did anything even close to what he is telling i did. I kinda hate that, just like i hate many people yelling "OMGUS" when someone votes for a person who made a terribly scummy case on them and explains why the case is scummy. Sometimes it feels like some people think "whenever two people vote for each other the second vote is OMGUS by definition" which is horribly wrong, just as wrong as saying i somehow backpedalled from something since i never did such a thing.Answering to that right now would totally make my question to Rels useless now would it?
Anyways i believe he is town. I fully understand people don't necessarily share the sentiment, and definitely don't share my reasoning (since you don't know if i am town or not). If KidAm was mafia he would have to know i am town - therefore he would also have to know i am telling the truth about what i am saying. Therefore he would know his "backpedalling" argument doesn't make any sense. I don't believe he would argue so strongly for it as mafia -- especially since it has been pointed out by three different people that he is wrong. It seems like he just actually believes in his argument and for some reason cannot understand the posts i (and apparently other people aswell?) write.
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I also have a town lean on Aubrey, for his psot #117 and the comment + vote on Havingfitz, since i share the same thought about his play. Town lean on doomsfeather, for being actually level-headed (i know this is not necessarly always a town trait), because in the argument we were in, it would have been easy for him to just push it forward as mafia since the thread sentiment was following the thought he was originally pushing. It would have been like a win-win scenario, noone is gonna call you out on it and at worst you just waste town's time on talking about something dumb. I also think Rels has made a couple of smart posts, regarding hapahauli in #109 and pushing Creature to play. It doesn't really seem like he is hard-reading him scum.
Basically everyone else is a complete non-entity. Except for Havingfitz who i have a slight scumlean on for reasons Aubrey outlined, and Hapahauli who i honestly think is mafia.
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Here is the reasoning. I already talked about this here:
I never did get any answer other than "just for the lulz". I don't believe hapahauli votes (especially votes for ME) just for the lulz. If he is town it's just unproductive and he knows that. I literally just don't believe his explanation, because it doesn't make any sense, and for a highly rational player - who is actually very good as town in this game - it indicates mafia. Furthermore the explanation does not line up with what he was posting earlier.This is what i believe to be a fact. You don't tend to participate in RVS / pressure vote shennies at D1 start, especailly towards a player you MUST know to not respond to being "pressured" by giving away his alignment as mafia. I mean like if i was scum i couldn't care less that there are people voting for me over absolutely nothing. You know that aswell so the only conclusions i can come to are that either (1) you actually think i am mafia, or (2) you are mafia.
So why do you think i am mafia? You really couldn't think i could possibly have - at this point of the game - a specific question to a specific player that i would not feel the need to ask you aswell, just because i have played with both of you before? In case there is option (3) aswell, feel free to tell me what that is.
Another thing is his KidAm read. Now look at this post:
Okay so, hapahauli retracts from his scumread on KidAm. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong in it. The problem lays in what heIn post 97, hapahauli wrote: [...]
That being said...
This makes sense.2nd is simply untrue again - as I explained before, the issue wasn't the conversation itself, but the refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened, and the issue of backpedalling was that Ooo told DF to back off, then went back in #53 and tried to explain how he wasn't really telling him to back off
UNVOTE:leaves unsaid.Now if hapahauli thinks KidAm is making sense he also MUST think that:
1) my refusal to discuss further with anyone else until the conversation happened is scummy / doesn't logically make sense
2) i backpedalled from something
If those two things are not true, there is no reason for hapahauli to retract from his KidAm scumread. Furthermore, if those things ARE true (in his mind), that should also ALWAYS make me mafia in his mind (because yes - if things KidAm lays out here are true, i am 100% mafia - and hapahauli very well knows that).It doesn't make any sense for him to back off from a scumread in that manner and not follow it up with a vote on me, since logically he should consider me mafia if he is not lying about the "this makes sense" -part.
VOTE: Hapahauli-
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basically this is 100% correct.In post 101, Creature wrote:Even if we decide to all arm at the same night to prevent scum from killing, it's still scumsided. So better arm when you feel like.-
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Aubrey could you clarify a bit what you mean here.
You said:
I don't understand how the green and red part fit together. Like if the "i liked he was pushing KidAm" part exists, how can "I wasn't exactly swayed by his reasons either" exist. For me it looks like it should be either one or another?I flip flop in trying to place Hapahauli.I liked he was pushing KidAmn, and questioning why people townread him,but I wasn't exactly swayed by his reasons for scumreading KidAmn either.I think that is why I was having those pings earlier at a glance.-
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(1) Why? Why would you ever do that? Why would you "feel the need to feel natural" for something you don't feel comfortable with? I couldn't confirm this (if you actually do that - or if you are telling the truth here) in any way since all the games lately (in past 2 yrs) you have played here were games where you replaced in later on in the game. What do "different expectations" matter when you are dealing with a person who doesn't give any fucks about these "different expectations"?In post 124, hapahauli wrote:@ OoO
Regarding my "RVS" vote:
I absolutely would vote "for the lulz" for you. This is not TL - there are different expectations for voting, especially early on. Dropping a random vote is something I've seen so often here, that it feels natural to do so. You're right that there's no way I'd do it on TL as either alignment.
Regarding "the makes sense" comment:
I'm saying that KidAmn's story makes sense, and therefore I have no reason to continue voting him. His explanation for how he is tunneling you for separate reasons makes sense - not necessarily his read on you itself. A lot of cases I make on mafia are based on thought-process - whether the story someone is telling is inconsistent or contradictory. So here, I'm dealing entirely with KidAmn's thought process (which he showed wasn't contradictory). That has very little to do with the validity of his scumread on you. You're not a player I can generally read until later in the game anyway.
(2) But you were voting for him because his story was inconsistent in the first place, no? His story hasn't changed so how it suddenly became consistent?-
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Well are you voting for a person you actually think is mafia? If you are, forgive me but remind me of your case since i can't remember any. Voting for someone without thinking they actually are scum does not amke any sense now does it?In post 125, Kop wrote:
There are no certainties of who is scum unless we have guilty or a scum claim. Votes on a wagon of someone you suspect gets far more answers than just sitting on your hands until you find someone who's willing, to put there hands up and say "hey I'm scum." Or even starting up a voting process on one of your top suspects.In post 79, outoforder wrote:I don't care. I vote when i actually am fairly certain someone is scum. If people wanna paint it as hesitant scum then they do. ^^
I see votes as "i am trying to lynch this person i think is mafia", not as "i voted for random person" or "reaction test" or whatever... It just is confusing imo. Keep it simple, that's what i like to do regarding votes. I believe that way scum have no outs from their votes, as if you vote you only vote for one reason and one reason only and you can never say "well i actually didn't think that guy was scum after all at the time".-
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I have a problem with this (i have still yet to look the second part of your post - but i am gonna put this up here first since i gotta go for half an hour). If this is what you thought, why didn't you say it in the first place, since imo this != "i voted you for the lulz" which was your response when i called you out on your vote? Like rn in my opinion you have said:In post 132, hapahauli wrote:[quote="In post 129,
As far as expectations go, the vote isn't for your expectations. It's to try to create something in the thread worth reacting to. So me running up an "early game wagon" on you has a higher chance of provoking someone to post/comment on it than me dropping a vote on any other person.
1) I voted for ooo because for the lulz
2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people
3) I voted for ooo because i participate on RVS (well this could technically be same as (1) too)-
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I am "used to" RVS, i just don't think it is necessary since what becomes out of it is more likely to go shit than to go right. Which is why i try to start the game my way instead.
I am not. The thing i was trying to say is that when you have - let's say normally - RVS that lasts like this:If you're going to dislike people who put RVS votes on people they don't know, you're going to have a bad time.
|---------------------->| when someone breaks it at;
|-------X-------------->| X spot, after that you would start to give out real reads, right? Because the point of RVS in the end is to start the game and do something to get out reads. So when people, after that X point (see more about this after the next quote) continue the game "without the X being there" it becomes, at least in my opinion, alignment - or at least personality - indicative.
Because Fredrick E Campbell posted a pure RVS vote. I can't make anything out of it.There were about five of us who voted you at the beginning. Why just MooginSoosy and havingfitz? I myself just unvoted you because I saw how many votes you already had.
You had actual reasons to think i am mafia (regardless of if the reasons are right/wrong/good/bad). Your vote wasn't really RVS, right?
MooginSoosy, havingfitz and hapahauli posted something i could actually process on. I have given my thought process on these people, as i have on you.
I was saying the (expected) ANSWER was something i think only Rels could have picked up, not the motivation of my post in the first place.Now I'm confused. If Rels is the only one who would have picked up on that, why are you irritated with other people for not picking up on that?
I don't understand this since i am not casing either of them, at least regarding their votes. If i was i would clearly point that out.TL;DR: Your case on MooginSoosy and havingfitz just doesn't make sense to me.-
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okay thanks.In post 137, Aubrey wrote:
If you're being a lil butt, I'll politely ignore it for now.In post 131, outoforder wrote:Aubrey do you tend to proof-read your posts before submitting them?
To answer your question. No. Not when I'm town. I tend to just blast out whatever I'm thinking and move on.-
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Okay, if i was to believe this is true, why didn't you say "2) I voted for ooo because i wanted to provoke a reaction from other people" in the second place?In post 135, hapahauli wrote:
^This probably sounds like I'm changing my story, but whatever. "Lul I'm voting Rayn" also had quite a lot to do with it. It was a very instinctual play that had a lot of little background thoughts running through it, and wasn't the deliberate, conscious vote that you seem to think it is.-
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I'd also like to have Creature to give some sort of a real opinion on something. Every other of you players, would you say this game is boring or that many players are boring? I am going to bet not a lot of games here go to a stage where you have actual reads and thought processes by page 2 here. Correct me if i am wrong here, but i don't really get the "boring" statements based purely on that.-
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Okay, i am trying to be as clear as i can here. My problem is that you first said your vote is for lulz. When you got called out of that - with reasoning that your original post where you voted for me doesn't really go along with the explanation, you give another explanation. When i ask you why didn't you give the second explanation in the first - or even in the second - place, you go back to the first explanation.In post 149, hapahauli wrote:[quote="In post 144,
Because describing a feeling is difficult.
You're working under an assumption that I thought through the RVS vote when I posted it. There wasn't much thought. It just felt right. And I'm just going to sound incoherent when I'm trying to describe what my gut was telling me to do in a situation. It wasn't until after you started questioning me on it that I spent any time thinking about what my gut feelz were.
I mean, you did something for a reason. No matter how smart/dumb the reason is, for me it seems like when i ask you for the reason, you go from reason A to reason B from time to time.-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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oh man, no he wasn't.In post 157, Rels wrote:
Yep. And you were scummy until that time. You even gave a emotional explanation to your lacklusterness when I was pressuring you, you hadn't played in a long time, etc.In post 154, hapahauli wrote:Rela, Didnt you think I was mafia in our last game until hours before the D1 lynch?-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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Yes i had totally forgot about this. But when Rels brought up the game that ultimately brought me to this game i went back and read it again. That is true.As town, I just post and worry about the consequences later. It's not always going to be consistent on the surface, because a lot of it is feelz, and it often moves too fast for me to justify every little thing I do.
I am not entirely sure of you being town yet, but bugging you about something i feel like isn't gonna lead me anywhere is not productive rn. I mean if i continuously ask you for explanations you're not gonna be productive in case i am wrong. So please do your thing, we can discuss if you're scum or not later (for once, god bless two weeks dayphases:) ).-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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Can you elaborate on why you think Aubrey is mafia?
And why do you think doomfeathers is town?-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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What do you mean?In post 186, Creature wrote:Aubrey looks like low-hanging scum. And he isn't low-hanging as town.
And please don't just explain what low and hanging means...-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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I mean like:In post 328, outoforder wrote:The posts are literally next to each other... You are saying you just randomly decided to stop reading further at that point? If i am completely honest, FECambell, i'd like to have you actually reach to some conclusions because you aren't really giving us anything right now.
You have already commented things that have happened way after those posts you just were concerned about. How does it make any sense that you didn't care about them the first time you read it or are you reading the thread backwards or something?-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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Like this is exactly why i read Aubrey town, especially after looking at his scumgame. There seems to be a notable difference in that game in comparison to this one. I really really liked that post and Kop for that reason only.I'm reading you as town, becauseyour posts seem a bit more thoughtout and there is more frustration behind your words.In the game we just finished, you seemed more composed as scum.-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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You mean this post (and the couple of posts before)? I think he was saying that buddying is scum-indicative, not that you are scum since your meta suggests you buddy as scum? Like you didn't necessarily do that in your last game -- but you were doing it here (regardless of what he meant by it - or why he said it).In post 267, Kop wrote:
Last game is a indicator, something I'd use in this game to monitor your gamestyle, but I won't use it as concrete evidence to say this game is the same.In post 265, Aubrey wrote:Look at that crap. You know I didn't buddy in our last game as scum.
At least i can't find a post where he stated you buddying is what your meta suggests you do as mafia.-
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outoforder Mafia Scum
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I am townreading him because of his posts on MooginSoosy (who i am also suspicious of for reasons i will outline soon). And because of WHY he townreads you, not just because he townreads you -- since i share the opinion of why you are town as i pointed earlier.
Basically - if you go read MooginSoosy's posts, she gave townreads on me, Rels and Creature.
When being prodded about the townreads she retracted from all of them except for the townread on me. I don't understand why he townread Rels and Creature in the first place, since there is no real explanation. Basically the read on Rels she has shouldn't have been a townread in the first place since almost everything Rels has posted is why she retracted from the read... I don't understand the read - or the change of read - on Creature at all. I don't see the thoguht process. I don't understand the read on me either since she literally said she has a townread on me for a post she doesn't know why i even posted that?!?!?!? I mean like, wtf does that even mean or how can she come to a such conclusion. And i certainly don't like her vote on doomfeathers since i heavily disagree with the case.
fitz' big post didn't change anything for me regarding the read on him. Still think he is likely to be mafia.
hapahauli needs to do more shit, right now he doesn't look good (basically playing way below his town!play level imo). While i am not certain he is mafia i was before, i definitely don't have a town read on him.
Fredrick E Campbell gets a scumlean for what i said before. I don't understand how someone can read the thread in that kinda manner. For me it looks like he is just taking some random things at a random time to cprod on them without actually thinking why people even do the stuff they do.
Basically this is where i stand:
town (in no specific order other than Rels):
Aubrey
Kop
KidAmn
doomfeathers
Creature
Rels
Useless / undecided on:
Allomancer*
hapahauli
Current scumreads (the lower - more scummy):
MooginSoosy / Fredrick E Campbell
havingfitz
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