Open 674: Duck Duck Goose [Game Over]

[outoforder]

I don't know. I assume Aubrey has played with them, correct? I also assume Hapa hasn't, correct? If that's the case i don't see why they wouldn't.
The other thing in town!Aubrey lynch favored against town!Hapa lynch is that they then have BlackVoid who "derailed the lynch onto a townie" so you again have 2 pushable town wagons on D2.

But okay, let's say fitz and Hapa are mafia here. Why does Hapa vote Hawk "so easily"? Why not try to lynch someone like Kop (or no-lynch)?

I've actually been wondering about Hap's vote on Hawk. Logically, he

should

have been voting Kop. He suspected Kop throughout even towards the end of the day. He barely said anything about Hawk. So, why

wouldn't

a town-Hap argue for a Kop lynch? I'm thinking about the possibility he just cleanly bussed there so pressure then turns to the people who hesitated to vote Hawk (Rels, maybe KidAmn). I suppose it's also possible he just didn't think that a Kop lynch would happen there. But Kop already had three votes. Aubrey and Cass were online which would have made it six and when you showed up, you would have hammered (or I would have reluctantly hammered Kop). Hap had a chance to get a scumread lynched and voted someone else in their place.

The problem with him being scum regarding that imo is mainly the setup. You do not wanna lynch mafia on D1 because if your nightkill arms up on N1 you have a disasterous game. No matter how bad Hapa's scumplay is, he knows that. He doesn't know when i will show up. He knows at the time i suspected Kop. Why doesn't he take the risk of a town lynch or no-lynch? He voted at the point when for example cass was yelling you are scum and you are derailing the lynch. How can he, as mafia, ever expect town to lynch Hawk here?

[outoforder]

Like the easiest explanation i can think of is that he saw a good case and sheeped you.

[outoforder]

VOTE: Hawk

If we're not voting Aubrey, I'm fine with this. I don't remember anything he's posted, which according to my self-meta, probably means he's mafia.

Like this is a super suicidal post at the point it came out if Hapa is mafia. There is still Aubrey wagon, there are people discrediting you BV for "changing your mind so many times", not all of those people can even be mafia. Why does he just do this instead of doing ANYTHING else (he has already had his vote on BOTH Aubrey and Kop)?

[BlackVoid]

Is it normal for town-Hap to sheep? I haven't seen him do that in the limited games of his I've played with or seen on mafiascum.

@Fitz - most of your reads besides Cass and Kop are of people that pushed you and the Kop read didn't happen till the end of day. Why would you consider it worthy of questioning Hap on omgus read when you've been doing the same thing?

Also, when you get around to it, I'd like to see more in-depth reasons for your scumreads on Hap and outoforder and townread on Rels. It's true we have a margin for error but I don't want this game to go anywhere near lylo. Too many people I don't trust to make good decisions. I'd prefer we wrap this game in the next gameday or two and not lose our advantage.

[outoforder]

Is it normal for town-Hap to sheep?

idk to be honest.

[outoforder]

I havent played a game where we were both town in like 3 yrs.

[outoforder]

But still, there are very very serious problems with Rels' read progression on Creature, his read progression on Hapa, and his overall progression in reads.

[outoforder]

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

[BlackVoid]

Yeah, Rels' entire push on Hap didn't look authentic. 401 looked like he was already planning for Hap to come back to the thread and look town. When Hap posted those cases, Rels' suddenly townreads him and his "current lynch candidates" then become Kop, KidAmn, and Frederick. I don't know why he would write a sentence like "The plus side is that if he's not scum he will wake up like the town god he is." Revealing that would tell a potential scum-Hap that he'd just need to be more active and Rels would retract the read. It makes much more sense to hold back on it and just see whether Hap "wakes up." The one thing giving me misgivings about a Rels scumread is 888. What do you think Hawk's motive is for voting him at that point?

[BlackVoid]

He is basically telling Hap exactly what he's looking for (smart posts and genuine frustration) and scumreading him because those weren't present. But then leaves an out by saying that if Hap does show that in the future, then he'll withdraw his scumread.

[outoforder]

401 looked like he was already planning for Hap to come back to the thread and look town

Yes! That is what caught my eye too when i took time to read his filter today. I agree i am terrible at reading Rels early on when he just agrees with me and doesn't do any retarded shit he sometimes does (mainly calls me out for some easily detectable bullshit reason). I jsut tend to ignore his posting and say he is town until he does something really townie (or not - like here, and i will go reread him).

Just look at this:

The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.

this is never something hapa said. this is rels' interpretation of what hapa said. i know i agreed with rels on this at the time, the difference is i was trying to figure out hapa's motives, rels never did any of that, just called him scum for it.

Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.

So what Rels basically says here cancels this argument totally. "Hapa is scum for attacking KidAmn for weak reasons and when he realizes they are weak reasons he is scum for that too." That's literally what happened if you think from a town!hapa point of view. There is no way to tell if hapa is scum making shit up or if he just blundered in the first place. But the fact is BOTH of these things in Rels' opinion make hapa mafia...

Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.

"Hapa is voting for havingfitz which i don't have a problem with but he is scum for it because easy target. I myself scumread people who are easy targets like KidAmn, Kop and FEC (a bit later on)." Rels should know better, he should know that being an easy target doesn't make anyone town, and suspecting someone who is "lurking" or an "easy target" doesn't make the person scum. It is an invented narrative to call someone scum based on something that doesn't make people scum.

I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

"I am not seeing obvious town hapa here and i didn't read him town at this point in the last game either" so... idk even know what to say here...

[havingfitz]

@Fitz - most of your reads besides Cass and Kop are of people that pushed you and the Kop read didn't happen till the end of day. Why would you consider it worthy of questioning Hap on omgus read when you've been doing the same thing?

BV...we're talking about D1. Short of something substantial D1...OMGUS is something I factor in. I town read several (4-5?) people D1. POE alone narrows that down to the group that included people suspect of me. I do not know about you but when I am town and shade starts being cast on me I wonder what the motives are. That's why when people do shade me I typically ask for their rationale. If they are putting a lot of logic and effort into it I can overlook the fact I am being read wrong. But I at least like the chance to defend myself from those allegations to prevent others from adopting the same suspicions towards me. Look over my ISO and you will see this train of through through out my D1 posts. You suspect me today. Do I suspect you? Same with momo. So 1) I haven't been doing the same thing hapa was accused of (only OMGUS) and 2) even if I was...hyopcrisy is NAI.

On pt 1) you are making an observation about me (I'm only suspecting those who suspect me) while at the same time providing a counter to your observation (cassie)...on top of which I provide one more (Kop).

I questioned hapa on only excercising OMGUS suspicions D1 (while overlooking I myself was a contradiction to that observation) because iirc more than one person had used that as grounds for suspicion towards him. I was still trying to sort out hapa in my mind as end of D1 got closer and wanted to see if he could provide any examples where that observation was not true (once again...forgetting I was an example).

I'll try to get the hapa/OoO/Rels stuff responded to in the next day or two.

[outoforder]

Cause your filter, ISO, whatever you're calling that here, is awful.
The "I don't like this guy but I won't explain why 'cause it's just an impression but actually it wasn't very serious". Weird way to start the game.
The "LOOK IM PARTICIPATING" comment that you're making on the setup / way to play. While you don't have posts that matter yet. It looks like scum trying to appear being active. "RVS shouldn't be stopped!" "We shoudln't all arm the same night!"
Then the rest of your posts are useless but I don't care about that, townies can make useless posts. I really don't like these two points though

I find scum knowing where town is.

TBF you also look pretty bad there: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=27374
LOL this makes me think of your "MM WE SHOULD NOT ALL ARM THE SAME NIGHT" post though:

Funny, because as scum I try to look active but I end up lurking. As town it's like the opposite.

How the fuck can I find a scumgame of yours easily. This forum is hard to use

Creature had lots of shit posts in his town games too, especially early.

Caught up.
Hapa is scum.
Kop is most likely scum.
Aubrey rayn and hawk are townie.
Creature and doom are super town.
So most importantly Hapa is scum. Let's murder him.

Creature seems super town because he's posting all the time. When he's being townread by people with influence in the thread. He doesn't like being play, source : his wiki and his scum games. Here we have a mix of some I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity.
MAYBE he's tryharding. We'll see if he drops off. But he seems super town.

Now see this read progression:
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts
-> *goes reading his games*
-> Creature has a lot of shitposts as town too
->

MAGICALLY THOSE SHITPOSTS ARE NOT ANYMORE SHITPOSTS, NOW THEY ARE "I-dont-care-what-you-think posts and good activity".

nononono Rels, you're scum here.

[outoforder]

forgot to say Creature went from scum to super town during that time in Rels' mind.

[outoforder]

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

[outoforder]

You can go and take my filter and Rels' filter together and see who are the people Rels ignores and who not when you do that (that is a pretty damn nice feature on MS). <3

[BlackVoid]

Yeah that comment he made "HavingFitz is definitely lackluster but still an easy vote" feels like he wanted to call Hap out for voting Fitz without actually defending Fitz. That combined with Fitz's townread on Rels makes me think that could be the team so I'm looking forward to seeing Fitz elaborate there. I'm leaving now, I'll re-read the entire game tonight to rule out other possibilities. Hopefully, Rels and Hap post by then.

[BlackVoid]

Also, @outoforder, you seem to have played with scum-Rels a lot. How does he tend to treat his teammates?

[outoforder]

Yeah that comment he made "HavingFitz is definitely lackluster but still an easy vote" feels like he wanted to call Hap out for voting Fitz without actually defending Fitz. That combined with Fitz's townread on Rels makes me think that could be the team so I'm looking forward to seeing Fitz elaborate there. I'm leaving now, I'll re-read the entire game tonight to rule out other possibilities. Hopefully, Rels and Hap post by then.

I generally dislike making conclusions about person A's alignment because of what mafia!B said about them. Mafia can defend/attack either townies or mafia, and when you're a townie and smart mafia "frames you" as their scumbuddy, it's pretty shittty if people believe that because you have no way of defending yourself. I hope you're not getting yourself onto this train where you come to conclusion about someone's alignment based up on what someone else said on them because it's just bad play in my opinion as smart mafia will always abuse that in a way or another.

What i mean is that comment doesn't mean anything about fitz' alignment, only on Rels'. And my conclusion is mafia because it doesn't make any sense for him to think what he expresses here. Basically all his suspicions on hapa in that post are "you did this or you did that but i will call you scum anyways" when actually one of the two possibilities highly likely points towards hapa being town.

Also, @outoforder, you seem to have played with scum-Rels a lot. How does he tend to treat his teammates?

no bussing, a lot of null-reading from what i remember (when there is no real suspicion = a big wagon on them).
I know it is true from this game:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/4 ... rams-mafia
I think i have a couple of other games where he has been scum and i have been town, but i got too distracted with bad townies.

[Kop]

VOTE: Rels

[Tenshii]

Votecount 2.2

[L-4] outoforder - cassielle, KidAmn
[L-4] havingfitz - Creature, momo
[L-5] Rels - Kop

Not voting: hapahauli, outoforder, Rels, BlackVoid, havingfitz

With 10 alive, a majority vote is decided with 6 players.

Deadline: (expired on 2017-03-19 00:00:00)

V/LA: havingfitz messaged me saying he'll be V/LA until Monday.

[Rels]

yo

[Rels]

I agree Hapa looks the worst in the game right now. It feels superficial.
The jump on rayn first, for which he changed his reasonning.
Then the thing on KidDamn, where he attacked him on something pretty weak and got convinced super easily, when Kiddamn just repeated things he's said before.
Finally this vote havingfitz. The vote in itself in not weird, havingfitz is definitely lackluster. But it's an easy vote. Like the things above.
I'm not seeing "obvious town" Hapa from last game. Though last game it took half of D1 for him to appear.

I mean this post in itself is so fucking scummy it hurts

lol p: it's not though

[Rels]

forgot to say Creature went from scum to super town during that time in Rels' mind.

yep he did

[Rels]

Another fact is that Rels ignores me and my stuff basically ONLY when i am accusing his scumbuddy. I also know this doesn't apply here unless havingfitz is mafia, so there you go.

yeah TBH I'm still not sure why you're scumreading fitz. Will go have alook after I'm caught up