nice....seems to me if that was a vig kill (not certian when scum get to kill versus a vig)..that I should have been offed because I have the most "heat"...thanks for the thoughts anyway Guardian..
Yos wrote: Eh...still, if a person has a gut read on someone, but can't explain why, I'd usually rather they say so then not say so. And I'm not really sure it does make it easier for the scum; I personally find it very interesting to note who's gut feelings match mine, and take that to be a sign that they might be looking at the game in the same way I am.
I'm not against people declaring their gut feelings. I'm simply against gut being used as a basis for actions. There's a difference between:
"X is suspicious"/"Vote: X"
"Why?"
"My gut just tells me so"
and:
"I have an odd feeling about X"
CKD wrote:
vote, unvote CKD
Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself. In any event, I'd like to know what your thinking in doing this was. Why self-vote or give the appearance of self-voting in the current situation? It's a completely different situation to early game self-voting for discussion-starting, so I feel justified in asking you this.
Des wrote:
Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?
Rofl. Reason: Ignoring my questions about his declaration of suspicion on SensFan.
vollkan wrote:Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself.
I noticed that. How come the mod says that CKD is dead, and how come CKD keeps posting?
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.
"Metadiving DGB is like playing Roblox" - T3
"She's sort of like a quantum computer, her reads exist in multiple states at once. u have to take into account the other dimensions." - Morning Tweet
Elmo, as town, if I get hammered before I can update tomorrow the person better have a good reason, if not that tells you something...keeping me at -1, will provide a ton of information...though one might not know the value of said information until later days...especially if I do get hung...at this point, I think my lynching will provide the MOST information....my wagon needs to be analyzed...my "supporters" need to be looked at as well..sometimes those who scream "person x" is town the loudest while there is a wagon on them, ends up being scum...look at all the action and conversation my self vote as provided thus far...Des unvoted....now why would he do that? He thought I was scummy, then I self vote and he removes his vote? DGB thinks I am trying to hide (without checking my other games)..
DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.
also, if I was scum, there are a whole other set of reason why a self vote might be helpful..
so your statement about my self vote (not making any sense either alignment) is not that correct...
I agree that sometimes a self vote is pointless and useless...but I think in this particular instance it is a decent move. Also, I have self voted in other games and it became a game changer...so I disagree.
also, when I update tomorrow...I will unvote and vote who I think is the scummiest (I am about 5-6 pages behind, so my vote on copter was dated)....powers that be might want to get their hammer in before tomorrow and it becomes that much harder to lynch me.
ckd wrote:Des unvoted....now why would he do that?
I could have left you at L-1. I don't see what's wrong with me changing to my other suspect. Also, not including your self-vote, you and Korts are equal in the vote count.
vollkan wrote:
Des wrote:
Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?
Rofl. Reason: Ignoring my questions about his declaration of suspicion on SensFan.
Your vote was on ckd for gut. I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the next most suspicious thing you've seen in all 15 pages of this game. What are you thinking about Korts? SensFan? Yos? Elmo?
i don't see how elmo can be so sure it was the scum kill
ckd needs to go in the ground
vollkan, i thought it went without saying that what i wrote in response to sens in the passage i directed you to made it obvious that i found his actions there scummy. you characterized it as a theory debate, i disagree with you.
voting someone, or threatening to vote someone, for "not answering questions" is still stupid, as kison discovered when i answered his questions and he had no good reason to keep his vote on me.
i agree with destructor.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
No it wasn't. I've already explicitly said that I take gut as a null-tell for CKD. I jokingly voted CKD over the gut thing, but the point I was addressing seriously was his mimicry of
Yes Minister
through the use of an irregular verb: "I scumhunt early game-style", "You reach and attempt to appear scumhunting"
Des wrote: I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the next most suspicious thing you've seen in all 15 pages of this game
Well I have to disagree with you here. He makes a statement, I request he backs it up, with no explanation he points me to some completely meaningless posts, and then he ignores me (I know he has responded now, and I will get to that).
Des wrote: What are you thinking about Korts?
Scummier-than-average (about 55 on my scale)
As I said at the time, I didn't like his Guardian vote. Accusing Guardian of being "non-committal" when it clearly wasn't the case that Guardian was shirking from having an opinion - he was simply letting CKD fight his own battles. "Non-committal" is just like "WIFOM" - it carries powerful implications, but is open to abuse. Later on, when I pointed this out, he then changed tact and argued that Guardian should be arguing in CKD's defence - leaving a silence as to what was scummy about this
His accusation that Rofl was buddying up by asking why Yos was on a list also seems a bit of a stretch.
I disagree with him on towntells - but that's a theory dispute to be separated from actual in-game scumminess.
Des wrote: SensFan?
Hasn't posted enough, and has mainly engaged in minor theory points more than anything else. I don't have a read here yet, but he needs to post more clearly.
Sens wrote: Yos?
I don't like his vote for CKD, the only justification supplied for it being "Based on some weird feelings I got from them earlier, I'm currently trying to decide between a CKD vote and a Guardian vote." Gut, in other words, and not at a very early stage of the game. He also hasn't been doing very much pushing or questioning. Again, needs to post more.
Des wrote: Elmo?
Pretty much neutral. Major theory dispute, obviously. I largely agree with the reasons he gives for the Korts vote.
Rofl wrote:
vollkan, i thought it went without saying that what i wrote in response to sens in the passage i directed you to made it obvious that i found his actions there scummy. you characterized it as a theory debate, i disagree with you.
Rofl, I've stated several times now that I see no basis for finding scumminess in that exchange. Rather than simply repeating that it is "obvious" (because, frankly, it ISN'T), how about explaining to me what was scummy there?
I'll quote the exchange again:
Please explain to me what there merits suspicion.
Rofl wrote: voting someone, or threatening to vote someone, for "not answering questions" is still stupid, as kison discovered when i answered his questions and he had no good reason to keep his vote on me.
It isn't stupid at all. Pointing out that Kison had no reasons after you explained yourself doesn't at all affect the validity of voting somebody before they provide reasons. It's incumbent upon you to justify yourself and, right now, your repeated practice of pointing me to a set of passages which give no indication of basis for suspicion is failing that responsibility dismally.
No it wasn't. I've already explicitly said that I take gut as a null-tell for CKD. I jokingly voted CKD over the gut thing, but the point I was addressing seriously was his mimicry of
Yes Minister
through the use of an irregular verb: "I scumhunt early game-style", "You reach and attempt to appear scumhunting"
Whoops, I missed that. Sorry.
More to the point, I still find it inconsistent that you're saying one thing of all of rofl's play makes him second most worthy of your vote. By the standards you've explained to us, isn't Yos' gut vote on ckd worse? rofl made a perceptibly casual mention of Sens as a suspect but Yos
voted
for a player without an explanation that went further than gut, saying he was happy to leave him at L-1. Why aren't you asking Yos to quantify his read of ckd as you're asking rofl to do of Sens?
And are either of these scummier than Korts? Where do they rate on your scale?
Des wrote: More to the point, I still find it inconsistent that you're saying one thing of all of rofl's play makes him second most worthy of your vote. By the standards you've explained to us, isn't Yos' gut vote on ckd worse? rofl made a perceptibly casual mention of Sens as a suspect but Yos voted for a player without an explanation that went further than gut, saying he was happy to leave him at L-1. Why aren't you asking Yos to quantify his read of ckd as you're asking rofl to do of Sens?
Yos made no pretences about having anything other than gut. As I said, I don't like Yos's vote, but there is a difference between casting a vote and stating it is based on gut (bad enough, imo) and casting a vote which is apparently based on something non-gut but then seemingly avoiding actually explaining what that 'something' is and why it is actually scummier.
Des wrote:
And are either of these scummier than Korts? Where do they rate on your scale?
The scale is not as meaningful at this stage of the game, but my basic thinking would have Korts 55, Yos 55 and Rofl at 60.
is it easier for you if i just say its a gut feeling that i can't quantify based on those posts in particular which i pointed out?
i'm unclear on why this is such a big deal, sens is one of many people who caught my eye, but i'm obviously not trying to lynch him right now, and its hardly the most important aspect of my overall play in this game. it seems like nitpicking to be taking issue with that.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
Vollkan, aren't "solidly based" suspicions just as affected by people acting rationally and calmly as pure gut reads, if not moreso? I believe it's easier for experienced/talented scum to look pro town from the rational analyst's point of view than from the gut player's. It's very hard to tell what a solid player's gut read is based on, but there is a form of behavior that's sort of universally considered pro town upon a rational analysis, which is hard to fake, but possible especially early in the game. For example rofl is ranked highest on your scale mostly, it seems to me, because he isn't as good at rationally explaining himself as most of the others are. (That's not to say a rational look at things isn't helpful, or that an empty gut feeling is sustance enough for a lynch, but I believe you're best off intially relaying on your gut for all reads.)
CKD, could you point us to a game where you self voted as town?
Elmo, I get that you didn't have too much to say at that point, but what did you gain by spamming and looking like you intentionally weren't contributing?
BM, are you scum?
I need to reread Korts when I'll have more time, see if there's anything solid behind the bad feeling I have on him. Will keep my vote where it is for the time being.
I'm not exactly comfortable with Elmo implying in post 331 that the posts up to that point were mostly spam. Null arguments aren't the same as spam.
Elmo wrote:
Korts wrote:
destructor wrote:Why is it more interesting that Yos was on the list?
Nice catch. rofl, are you suggesting that Yos is particularly pro-town? Buddying up much?
This is a fairly obviously bad post. Yos hadn't posted yet, so it's rather difficult to believe rofl is suggesting that. You're assigning suspicion that wasn't there in Des's post, too; this looks like you're trying to slide in-between two townies, playing them off against each other. I don't mind reaching in the random stage generally, but this looks the scummy kind. Town wants to find something kinda suspicious as a springboard, but hopefully accurate.. this just looks scummy. The fact that you're basically feeding off someone else's reasoning instead of contributing your own, that you've ignored all rofl's other behaviour in terms of coming up with a read, and that you seem more inclined to push Des into a lynch than prod at rofl and actually read his reactions are, y'know, scummy.
Fair enough.
Elmo wrote: BM is scummy. But it seems slightly closer to the scummy where he was actually town before. BM is always scummy. Unless he moves back towards scum-scummy, then I don't really want to lynch him today. Obviously, I don't have a strong read on him.
I don't really understand the distinction between town-scummy and scum-scummy here. Any reason for being wishy-washy?
Elmo wrote:Kison is kind of scummy. But I don't know if that's just him. Kison, are you scum?
Again, why so wishy-washy? What do you hope to achieve by a direct question?
vollkan wrote:
Korts wrote:Yes. I concede the point that he's not fence-sitting as I first saw it. But if he disagrees with the CKD-case, he obviously has a problem with the points against him, and if that's the case I don't see why he doesn't raise these problems with the case. The conflict of projected motives is evident.
This shouldn't be taken to give endorsement to the view that people should not defend others, but I do think that one can legitimately refuse to defend somebody if one thinks that their will be an information-gain from requiring them to respond personally.
While I understand what you're saying, I still think there's a conflict between the two motives that Guardian was projecting. I think I did acknowledge that it's nowhere near as solid a scumtell as the initial accusation of fence-sitting was (although I realized that to be invalid).
Fair enough. I remembered the exchange between SensFan and rofl, but I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. I thought rofl had more to it than that.
Kison wrote:Vote: Zazier temporary placeholder while I find a better home for my vote. Zazier, where art thou?
What's the reasoning behind this vote?
des wrote:You're calling his second vote (for rofl) random now, but you didn't at the time. I was calling into question the fact that you seemed to think the best of his votes. You didn't consider that ckd could be scum.
The unvote and vote elsewhere wasn't suspicious in particular.
des wrote:Korts is more active now, but I'm still not convinced that he's really trying to catch scum. I'm finding a lot of his argument's reachy. I can point to them later.
Can you do this (assuming you didn't earlier?)
-----
I have to go catch a train, and the ride is three hours long, I'll continue catching up when I arrive.
curiouskarmadog wrote:DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.
The alignment is 'town' - why you are officially hammering yourself now is beyond me. Besides, once you are revealed town, who in their right mind would hammer you??? There was no danger. Of course, I discounted your idiocy wholesale, and for this I am sorry.
unvote
Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.
"Metadiving DGB is like playing Roblox" - T3
"She's sort of like a quantum computer, her reads exist in multiple states at once. u have to take into account the other dimensions." - Morning Tweet
currently typing reports for work..once I am done there, will be updating this thread today...hopefully in the next 3-4 hours.
Raging Rabbit wrote:
CKD, could you point us to a game where you self voted as town?
.
yeah there has been a couple...the one I was referring to was Dead Riki's nocross kill (got a nomination for best town performance)...I feel that self votes at times, can be informatitive no matter what Elmo says.
though it should be noted, that I have also self voted as scum too (though I dont think in Day 1)..so the self vote from me, should be taking at the most as a null tell.
DrippingGoofball wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote:DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.
The alignment is 'town' - why you are officially hammering yourself now is beyond me. Besides, once you are revealed town, who in their right mind would hammer you??? There was no danger. Of course, I discounted your idiocy wholesale, and for this I am sorry.
unvote
wait a minute, I thought you were just being crazy..the mod actually posted a death scene and updated the first post?..did anyone else see this?
ugh, if the mod really did mess up...it is only fair that I be killed though it should be noted it was a modkill...it is not fair that some people have the information and others dont. I dont think mod would have screwed up, she seems to be on the ball.
if not, DGB is lying....(though I have no clue why)
not sure how to ask this.
Mod, has there be any death scenes posted and then edit/deleted?
i'm confused by dgb and ckd's little back and forth about death scenes here. i never saw anything but the death of guardian.
soi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)
vollkan wrote:Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself.
I noticed that. How come the mod says that CKD is dead, and how come CKD keeps posting?
if the mod did indeed mess up, then it is not fair that only certian people who caught it, knows about it. I should be modkill, which sucks but is fair.
DGB is known to be insane though (not really joking here)..so she could have thought she saw it..
or she is lying...(can think of a couple reasons town/scum why someone would do that)
my question was to her, why if she saw it and knows my aligenment, was she still voting for me...because
I am
town..
her last post was answering that question...
side note for future: this actually would make an interesting scum gambit (if DGB and I were scum)..someone claims to see the mod post a death scene stating that their scum buddy was town....even if the mod comes back and says they didnt mess up..that might buy the person under the pressure some time to wiggle out of the wagon...another reason my lynching will produce a decent amount of information...
at any rate, I think the mod should comment...if it was a mess up, I should be mod killed...
