Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[destructor]

Your vote was on ckd for gut

No it wasn't. I've already explicitly said that I take gut as a null-tell for CKD. I jokingly voted CKD over the gut thing, but the point I was addressing seriously was his mimicry of

Yes Minister

through the use of an irregular verb: "I scumhunt early game-style", "You reach and attempt to appear scumhunting"

Whoops, I missed that. Sorry.

More to the point, I still find it inconsistent that you're saying one thing of all of rofl's play makes him second most worthy of your vote. By the standards you've explained to us, isn't Yos' gut vote on ckd worse? rofl made a perceptibly casual mention of Sens as a suspect but Yos

voted

for a player without an explanation that went further than gut, saying he was happy to leave him at L-1. Why aren't you asking Yos to quantify his read of ckd as you're asking rofl to do of Sens?

And are either of these scummier than Korts? Where do they rate on your scale?

[vollkan]

More to the point, I still find it inconsistent that you're saying one thing of all of rofl's play makes him second most worthy of your vote. By the standards you've explained to us, isn't Yos' gut vote on ckd worse? rofl made a perceptibly casual mention of Sens as a suspect but Yos voted for a player without an explanation that went further than gut, saying he was happy to leave him at L-1. Why aren't you asking Yos to quantify his read of ckd as you're asking rofl to do of Sens?

Yos made no pretences about having anything other than gut. As I said, I don't like Yos's vote, but there is a difference between casting a vote and stating it is based on gut (bad enough, imo) and casting a vote which is apparently based on something non-gut but then seemingly avoiding actually explaining what that 'something' is and why it is actually scummier.

And are either of these scummier than Korts? Where do they rate on your scale?

The scale is not as meaningful at this stage of the game, but my basic thinking would have Korts 55, Yos 55 and Rofl at 60.

[roflcopter]

is it easier for you if i just say its a gut feeling that i can't quantify based on those posts in particular which i pointed out?

i'm unclear on why this is such a big deal, sens is one of many people who caught my eye, but i'm obviously not trying to lynch him right now, and its hardly the most important aspect of my overall play in this game. it seems like nitpicking to be taking issue with that.

[Raging Rabbit]

I'm back.

Vollkan, aren't "solidly based" suspicions just as affected by people acting rationally and calmly as pure gut reads, if not moreso? I believe it's easier for experienced/talented scum to look pro town from the rational analyst's point of view than from the gut player's. It's very hard to tell what a solid player's gut read is based on, but there is a form of behavior that's sort of universally considered pro town upon a rational analysis, which is hard to fake, but possible especially early in the game. For example rofl is ranked highest on your scale mostly, it seems to me, because he isn't as good at rationally explaining himself as most of the others are. (That's not to say a rational look at things isn't helpful, or that an empty gut feeling is sustance enough for a lynch, but I believe you're best off intially relaying on your gut for all reads.)

CKD, could you point us to a game where you self voted as town?

Elmo, I get that you didn't have too much to say at that point, but what did you gain by spamming and looking like you intentionally weren't contributing?

BM, are you scum?

I need to reread Korts when I'll have more time, see if there's anything solid behind the bad feeling I have on him. Will keep my vote where it is for the time being.

[Korts]

I'm not exactly comfortable with Elmo implying in post 331 that the posts up to that point were mostly spam. Null arguments aren't the same as spam.

Why is it more interesting that Yos was on the list?

Nice catch. rofl, are you suggesting that Yos is particularly pro-town? Buddying up much?

This is a fairly obviously bad post. Yos hadn't posted yet, so it's rather difficult to believe rofl is suggesting that. You're assigning suspicion that wasn't there in Des's post, too; this looks like you're trying to slide in-between two townies, playing them off against each other. I don't mind reaching in the random stage generally, but this looks the scummy kind. Town wants to find something kinda suspicious as a springboard, but hopefully accurate.. this just looks scummy. The fact that you're basically feeding off someone else's reasoning instead of contributing your own, that you've ignored all rofl's other behaviour in terms of coming up with a read, and that you seem more inclined to push Des into a lynch than prod at rofl and actually read his reactions are, y'know, scummy.

Fair enough.

BM is scummy. But it seems slightly closer to the scummy where he was actually town before. BM is always scummy. Unless he moves back towards scum-scummy, then I don't really want to lynch him today. Obviously, I don't have a strong read on him.

I don't really understand the distinction between town-scummy and scum-scummy here. Any reason for being wishy-washy?

Kison is kind of scummy. But I don't know if that's just him. Kison, are you scum?

Again, why so wishy-washy? What do you hope to achieve by a direct question?

Yes. I concede the point that he's not fence-sitting as I first saw it. But if he disagrees with the CKD-case, he obviously has a problem with the points against him, and if that's the case I don't see why he doesn't raise these problems with the case. The conflict of projected motives is evident.

This shouldn't be taken to give endorsement to the view that people should not defend others, but I do think that one can legitimately refuse to defend somebody if one thinks that their will be an information-gain from requiring them to respond personally.

While I understand what you're saying, I still think there's a conflict between the two motives that Guardian was projecting. I think I did acknowledge that it's nowhere near as solid a scumtell as the initial accusation of fence-sitting was (although I realized that to be invalid).

Rofl explained absolutely nothing! <quotes>

Fair enough. I remembered the exchange between SensFan and rofl, but I didn't pay much attention to it at the time. I thought rofl had more to it than that.

Vote: Zazier temporary placeholder while I find a better home for my vote. Zazier, where art thou?

What's the reasoning behind this vote?

You're calling his second vote (for rofl) random now, but you didn't at the time. I was calling into question the fact that you seemed to think the best of his votes. You didn't consider that ckd could be scum.

The unvote and vote elsewhere wasn't suspicious in particular.

Korts is more active now, but I'm still not convinced that he's really trying to catch scum. I'm finding a lot of his argument's reachy. I can point to them later.

Can you do this (assuming you didn't earlier?)

-----

I have to go catch a train, and the ride is three hours long, I'll continue catching up when I arrive.

[DrippingGoofball]

DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.

The alignment is 'town' - why you are officially hammering yourself now is beyond me. Besides, once you are revealed town, who in their right mind would hammer you??? There was no danger. Of course, I discounted your idiocy wholesale, and for this I am sorry.

unvote

[curiouskarmadog]

currently typing reports for work..once I am done there, will be updating this thread today...hopefully in the next 3-4 hours.

CKD, could you point us to a game where you self voted as town?

.

yeah there has been a couple...the one I was referring to was Dead Riki's nocross kill (got a nomination for best town performance)...I feel that self votes at times, can be informatitive no matter what Elmo says.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 51&start=0

though it should be noted, that I have also self voted as scum too (though I dont think in Day 1)..so the self vote from me, should be taking at the most as a null tell.

DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.

The alignment is 'town' - why you are officially hammering yourself now is beyond me. Besides, once you are revealed town, who in their right mind would hammer you??? There was no danger. Of course, I discounted your idiocy wholesale, and for this I am sorry.

unvote

wait a minute, I thought you were just being crazy..the mod actually posted a death scene and updated the first post?..did anyone else see this?

also,

unvote

[curiouskarmadog]

ugh, if the mod really did mess up...it is only fair that I be killed though it should be noted it was a modkill...it is not fair that some people have the information and others dont. I dont think mod would have screwed up, she seems to be on the ball.

if not, DGB is lying....(though I have no clue why)

not sure how to ask this.

Mod, has there be any death scenes posted and then edit/deleted?

[roflcopter]

i'm confused by dgb and ckd's little back and forth about death scenes here. i never saw anything but the death of guardian.

[curiouskarmadog]

I am referring to this post.

Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself.

I noticed that. How come the mod says that CKD is dead, and how come CKD keeps posting?

if the mod did indeed mess up, then it is not fair that only certian people who caught it, knows about it. I should be modkill, which sucks but is fair.

DGB is known to be insane though (not really joking here)..so she could have thought she saw it..

or she is lying...(can think of a couple reasons town/scum why someone would do that)

my question was to her, why if she saw it and knows my aligenment, was she still voting for me...because

I am

town..

her last post was answering that question...

side note for future: this actually would make an interesting scum gambit (if DGB and I were scum)..someone claims to see the mod post a death scene stating that their scum buddy was town....even if the mod comes back and says they didnt mess up..that might buy the person under the pressure some time to wiggle out of the wagon...another reason my lynching will produce a decent amount of information...

at any rate, I think the mod should comment...if it was a mess up, I should be mod killed...

[Adel]

Mod, has there be any death scenes posted and then edit/deleted?

No.

[Adel]

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 385

_{with 13 alive, 7 will lynch before deadline}

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

¬Korts:

4

:ZazieR, Battle Mage, Elmo, destructor
curiouskarmadog:

3

:roflcopter, vollkan, Yosarian2
Battle Mage:

2

:SensFan, Korts
Elmo:

1

:Raging Rabbit
ZazieR:

1

:Kison

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

2

:curiouskarmadog, DrippingGoofball,


˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[DrippingGoofball]

Sorry... I must have misread. I mistook "Guardian" in the death scene for "CKD."

This being said, speaking of insanity, CKD's most recent post is INSANELY scummy.

unvote, vote: CKD

Scum, I want you to die.

[curiouskarmadog]

Mod, has there be any death scenes posted and then edit/deleted?

No.

DGB, please explain

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry... I must have misread. I mistook "Guardian" in the death scene for "CKD."

This being said, speaking of insanity, CKD's most recent post is INSANELY scummy.

unvote, vote: CKD

Scum, I want you to die.

yeah, I am scummy for asking you or the mod to explain what happened, thus making you vote me again..

which post is scummy, and explain why.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry... I must have misread. I mistook "Guardian" in the death scene for "CKD."

explain how you mistook guardian's death scene for my death scene, when you posted several times AFTER Guardian's death scene was posted. explain why you said I was town in that scene, when all you had to do was go look to see if "my" death scene was still posted. I assume you did go look, before you apologized and unvoted. guardian's death scene has never changed and was on the last page..

[DrippingGoofball]

side note for future: this actually would make an interesting scum gambit (if DGB and I were scum)..someone claims to see the mod post a death scene stating that their scum buddy was town....even if the mod comes back and says they didnt mess up..that might buy the person under the pressure some time to wiggle out of the wagon...another reason my lynching will produce a decent amount of information...

"that might buy the person under the pressure some time to wiggle out of the wagon"

Yeah, that person would be you. YOU. You are seriously supposing that we're buddies here??? Sounds like a caught scum tactic, not a town tactic. You want to cast aspersions on me on your way down, so that after we find out YOU're scum, that I'm under suspicion. I don't think you thought this through, scumbag.

You are proposing a scenario where you and I are buddies.

Hahahhahah. What townie would explain another player's behavior based on them being BUDDIES TOGETHER unless he himself was scum?

"someone claims to see the mod post a death scene stating that their scum buddy was town"

You are assuming yourself to be scum in this theory, AGAIN? If you're town, you have taken leave of your senses. If you're scum, then it makes perfect sense.

[DrippingGoofball]

explain how you mistook guardian's death scene for my death scene, when you posted several times AFTER Guardian's death scene was posted. explain why you said I was town in that scene, when all you had to do was go look to see if "my" death scene was still posted. I assume you did go look, before you apologized and unvoted. guardian's death scene has never changed and was on the last page..

My mind substituted Guardian's name for yours, for some reason. If that's not strange enough, I was wondering why people were talking about Guardian being dead... and why you kept posting, which is on the record.

[DrippingGoofball]

What townie would explain another player's behavior based on them being BUDDIES TOGETHER unless he himself was scum?

Can someone hammer this scumbag already?

[curiouskarmadog]

I wasnt assuming you and I are scum buddies.

how scummy of you not to mention this.

side note for future: this actually would make an interesting scum gambit

I said "you and I" as an example of how the gambit would work..since it just happened.

vote DGB.....

might change the vote after I post my reread notes...but right now, this is the most scummy...wonder why DGB isnt paying real close attention to the thread?

[curiouskarmadog]

explain how you mistook guardian's death scene for my death scene, when you posted several times AFTER Guardian's death scene was posted. explain why you said I was town in that scene, when all you had to do was go look to see if "my" death scene was still posted. I assume you did go look, before you apologized and unvoted. guardian's death scene has never changed and was on the last page..

My mind substituted Guardian's name for yours, for some reason. If that's not strange enough, I was wondering why people were talking about Guardian being dead... and why you kept posting, which is on the record.

so when I said there wasnt a death scene ands asked you to explain your vote on me, you went back and read my name for Guardian's a SECOND time?...why did you unvote and not ask the mod why my death scene was still posted?

[curiouskarmadog]

Going back to about page 6..so I make sure not to miss anything.
I am getting a lot of heat for my suspicions of rofl early in the game. I gets votes basically based on my gut. I openly admit that my vote and suspicions are “reaching” and gut driven, because we are early in the game…actually fresh out of the random vote stage. I find it funny how people feel that is scummy to vote on your gut during page 5 of Day 1….now people are not going to admit it, but the fact that you are voting me, is based on a gut instinct (unless you are scum and looking for something easy) that is telling you my gut vote is scummy…but going to move beyond that.

If I need to address again my early suspicions on rofl I will do so…

Post 137, vollkan votes me because of my gut vote, later (I think I read this, will have to read again to make sure) he calls that a joke vote.. ..if that is the case, that joke vote remained on me while I was up to -1 and still remains on me. My problems with this vote was I know vollkan has a problem with gut votes, but still categories my vote as gut anyway. I have (in plenty of games) gut voted and vollkan has never once attacked me for it. I find it strange now (as of page 6) there is a wagon on me he took THIS time to vote me and attack me for it. Explain.

Post 142

CKD's vote seems to root in OMGUS. After you've justified your suspicion of rofl with "page 4 gut", why do you feel the need for rofl to justify his read on des?

Not sure how my vote on rofl was OMGUS when I voted him first (which started this whole mess).

Post 143

and Des, you are voting me why?..becauase you think it is noise?

I think it's an unreasonably reachy argument. There is no reason arguments and cases have to be weak just because it's early in the game. What you're doing isn't even prodding and probing.

It is reaching…but NOT THAT reachy. It was early in the game…I upgraded my random vote (korts) to rofl who I felt might be making some scummy posts…and while you deem this as not prodding or probing, look at the reaction to come out of it. Now, I am not saying I did this for a reaction, but I didn’t do it to be safe either. I would not have advocated lynching rofl at the moment based on that, but it was enough for me to change my vote.

I stated several times it wasnt a case...I am not trying to parade it as anything else

I don't buy this. It's like you're saying you're only testing the waters. Here are some quotes:

The quotes are in post 143 if anyone needs them. The initial vote was gut…but when he refused to back up his words..when he fed me a bunch of bullshit like “there is a difference between acting town and being town” without explain it and how YOU were doing it…after he was being evasive..then the gut vote became stronger.

it looks like someone trying to LOOK like they are doing something without really doing anything.

What do you make of Korts' contributions before page 5?

Nothing..couple jokes..random votes…he wasn’t doing much of anything..but that was what most of goes on Day 1 in the first pages of a game…it was different in rofl play…I assume you are asking me about Korts at this point because I had my random vote on him…but what did anybody do in the first 5 pages of the game…other than BM spamming the thread..nothing really got this game going until my attack of rofl.

Post 163

*shrug* There are very few players who I am going to give leeway towards, but she happens to be one of them. It's not that I find it 'acceptable', but I'm far less willing to assume that DrippingGoofball in particular making ridiculous statements of that sort indicates one way or another that she is scum or town. I don't know how to read her, and I think you'll find that many people in this game who've played with her before know that she has a very unusual demeanor.

QFT

Post 172

ckd, kison: how does bm's declaration that ckd is protown differ from my own about des, and why has it gone ignored by you two up to this point?

you mean the statement he made during a spamming frenzy in between jokes and votes on page 2? Did you take that seriously? Should I have not taken your clearing of Des seriously?..I fail to see how they are similar…

post 195

This is supposed to be such a stellar cast -- we seem to have largely spam'd/noise'd our way to page 8 in two days. Short page lengths are better for towns -- in reality, people are not going to re-read 40 page day ones as well as they read 15 page day ones.

Please cut out the garbage -- it is unhelpful and suspcious. Posting a lot of nothing can make you look like you are scum hunting, being active, thinking about the game, etc. when you aren't.

I am especially annoyed with BM and rofl for this, off the top of my head. BM you need to re-read the thread and come up with something logical, and stop the knee-jerk voting reactions that seem to come three times a page.

rofl, when asked a question that you see that you are being asked, either refuse to answer it and move on (worse option), or answer it immediately (better option). Don't draw it out over a dozen posts where you get into a debate with others where you explain why you are refusing when you could just answer (worst option, one that you chose).

QFT

Post 214

The Korts-ckd connection became more evident when Korts talked about ckd's motives with so much confidence (Post 161). He describes ckd's case on rofl as OMGUS, ignoring the fact that ckd voted rofl before this could have been a factor. Why isn't Korts questioning the legitimacy of ckd's reasoning prior to his exchange with rofl? I think it's because he's scum trying to slow his buddy's wagon down, or possibly scum who knows ckd is town.

You make good observations/theories here. My reaction to rofl wasn’t a knee jerk, but I can see maybe how one might think that. I was mostly angered how rofl refused to answer my question and only through out more crap…then I was upset that no one else really seemed to see what I was seeing (at the time) I agree with your thoughts here though…it is easy for people to say “I agree with X” if someone knows that X is town and is getting ready to get hung…it might by the town creds later…is that what Korts is doing?..I don’t know…but like I have said, those who scream X is town the most, is probably scum…

Post 215, vollkan says it was a joke vote. Did you give me any indication that your vote was a joke?

Not sure why vollkan vote is still on me at this point…it was a joke vote, then you talk about a double standard..do you feel I am now scummy because you perceive me as a hypocrite?

Post 220, Guardian has a great post in reference to DGB

_-_-_
Interesting how so much conversation is revolving around me and people links (be it defending or attacking ) to me…especially because no one is suppose to know my alignment yet…ok, got to do some chores before the wifey gets home…

This update brings me up to about page 10…

Going to attack the rest tonight (3-4 hours from now??)at one point…

[DrippingGoofball]

Yes I did read your name not just twice but at least 5 or 6 times. Ah, the mystery of the brain.

You're still scum, CKD.

[roflcopter]

you mean the statement he made during a spamming frenzy in between jokes and votes on page 2? Did you take that seriously? Should I have not taken your clearing of Des seriously?..I fail to see how they are similar…

you're leaving out the (at least) two other times bm has referenced you being obviously town or having a strong town read on you that were outside a page two spamming joke vote frenzy.

[Kison]

Someone asked me what I think of the furious karma dog. As I said, I agree with his point about clearing Destructor so early without being able to point out why, but disagree with most everything else he used as a basis for switching his vote. However, whether or not his switch of a vote indicates a link between him and Korts, I do not know. I'm going to go back and look over the whole ordeal right now and will post back shortly.

What do you think now?

I've already presented a more recent stance. But again I am going to reiterate that I think the CKD wagon is blown out of proportions. I'm viewing CKD's actions as two separate issues, which are as follows:

1) He switched his vote from Korts to roflcoptor without giving a reason. The reasons he presented later were, in my opinion, not very strong, and based primarily on a 'gut' read which he narrowed down to a few posts roflcopter made where he asked various questions, which CKD interpreted as buddying up and 'posting for the sake of posting.' I disagree with this, but considering it was in the early game, I really don't think this point alone warrants a wagon driven to the verge of lynching him.

2) His debate with roflcopter which followed his vote placement. In this debate, he hounds roflcopter for clearing(rofl's words) Destructor after a few pages in the game, and refusing to specify why he has done so. I fully support CKD's argument, despite my own discovery that roflcopter has a tendency to do this in other games(one of which I already pointed out in an earlier post of mine). This makes the act not scummy for _roflcopter_, but in general, I think it's a horrible practice to clear someone based on a few behavioral moves they've made, and much less so when you can't even pinpoint your reasons for viewing them in that light.

I don't know. I may be missing something, here, but those are the two biggies I am seeing, and for this reason I do not view CKD as an optimal lynch at this point(however there are posts beyond the one I'm responding to which may sway me).

@Kison-ive already explained my stance on CKD at least twice.

@Des- same applies to you. It'd be nice if you read some of my posts, before asking me questions that i've already answered.

You definitely didn't. You on ckd:

I'm pretty sure you're town at this point.

But i have a town read on him based on a meta i can't reference, so it isn't of great value to the game at this point.

This is actually a very good point. If DGB wasnt a professional bser, and CKD strongly protown, i might be tempted to follow you.

A strong town read based on a meta that you can't reference is BS. And you're comfortable to say this by Post 28?

I would like the infamous Battle Mage to respond to this.

voting someone, or threatening to vote someone, for "not answering questions" is still stupid, as kison discovered when i answered his questions and he had no good reason to keep his vote on me.

I unvoted you because I found that your actions matched your actions in another game where you were Town.

Vote: Zazier

temporary placeholder while I find a better home for my vote. Zazier, where art thou?

What's the reasoning behind this vote?

I had been away from the game for a few days and hadn't had a better place in mind to stash it, as I said in the block you quoted.

I really don't know what to make of DrippingGoofball's misread of the death scene. I will think on this one.

Unvote

Vote: Yosarian2

Despite posting on a constant basis, he has not shown me much indication that he is trying to find scum. The posts he's made which are most relevant to actual game events are his first few, where he caught up after receiving his prod. In the end he votes curiouskarmadog, and the only two reasons I can find are identical: 'weird feelings' he got from him.

*hits submit and receives the bluehost screen of death* *sigh*...