Crackers! Mafia -- Game Over. See page 50

[Adel]

˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚˚

votecount as of post 349

_{with 14 alive, 8 will lynch before deadline}

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¬curiouskarmadog:

5

:roflcopter, DrippingGoofball, destructor, vollkan, Yosarian2
Korts:

3

:ZazieR, Battle Mage, Elmo
Battle Mage:

2

:SensFan, Korts
roflcopter:

1

:curiouskarmadog
Elmo:

1

:Raging Rabbit,
DrippingGoofBall:

1

:Guardian
ZazieR:

1

:Kison

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

none

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Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[DrippingGoofball]

Is CKD trying to quietly slip his scummy self out from our collective consciousness?

Discuss.

[Yosarian2]

Die filthy r scum impostor.

Lol. Sorry about that.

Just goes to show, I can spell ANYONE's name wrong, even if it's just 5 letters.

why do people keep trying to do this?

Uh, trying to do what? Ask questions about how people arrived at certain conclusions?

The flip side of this is that demanding a high level of justification for things sets the field up better for town. Legitimising gut simply gives scum an out for avoiding to post reasoning.

Eh...still, if a person has a gut read on someone, but can't explain why, I'd usually rather they say so then not say so. And I'm not really sure it does make it easier for the scum; I personally find it very interesting to note who's gut feelings match mine, and take that to be a sign that they might be looking at the game in the same way I am.

[destructor]

Thoughts as I catch up...

Guardian, you didn't answer this:

Does my case on Korts interest you? What about his connection to ckd?

des, are you accusing me of not scumhunting?

Yep.

The Korts-ckd connection became more evident when Korts talked about ckd's motives with so much confidence

Korts, If ckd is scum he's going to be conscious of whether or not he's voting for someone who's on his team. He unvoted you and moved to rofl without giving much more reason than his first vote.

I still don't see how that's particularly scummy, placing multiple random votes.

Is this me talking about motives "with so much confidence"? Cos it was you that implied that CKD's second vote was pretty much another vote without real reason (i.e. a second random vote). I don't know why CKD decided his vote on me was lacking. The fact that I didn't do much constructive posting up 'til then does make his unvote raise my eyebrow, looking at it now, but I fail to see that as an associative tell (I would say that, though, wouldn't I).

You're calling his second vote (for rofl) random now, but you didn't at the time. I was calling into question the fact that you seemed to think the best of his votes. You didn't consider that ckd could be scum.

Why isn't Korts questioning the legitimacy of ckd's reasoning prior to his exchange with rofl?

Because "gut" is an acceptable though not very helpful reason for an early game state, while BS is always invalid.

I'm not interested in beating a dead horse, but you didn't make a note of this earlier. Your comments about ckd seemed to default to ckd-town. I think that's suspicious.

BM, I know you said it jokingly. I'm repeating myself here. You got the FOS for implicating Sens. Kison played along with DBG based on interaction that already existed. You specifically bought SensFan into it for no reason I can understand. What was the point of that?

He was a name i could remember was in the game, that i hadnt mentioned yet? I dont know. It's called the RANDOM voting stage for a reason.

You've said your vote-hopping has a pro-town function (I think it's inefficient and limited, but that's probably not worth discussing anymore). What was the pro-town function of WIFOM'ing us?

@Kison-ive already explained my stance on CKD at least twice.

@Des- same applies to you. It'd be nice if you read some of my posts, before asking me questions that i've already answered.

You definitely didn't. You on ckd:

I'm pretty sure you're town at this point.

But i have a town read on him based on a meta i can't reference, so it isn't of great value to the game at this point.

This is actually a very good point. If DGB wasnt a professional bser, and CKD strongly protown, i might be tempted to follow you.

A strong town read based on a meta that you can't reference is BS. And you're comfortable to say this by Post 28?

How much of what you post do you actually mean? A lot of your posts are just coming across as completely counter-productive. Sure, they might make sense to

you

and I'd love to understand, but unless you're going to share the fruits of your play with us in a way we can all understand, don't bother since that's definitively anti-town. This is a team game and posts like this:

And ftr, my votes do mean whatever i want them to, TO ME. Why would i care what significance you place upon my votes?

are poor examples of teamwork.

Someone asked me what I think of the furious karma dog. As I said, I agree with his point about clearing Destructor so early without being able to point out why, but disagree with most everything else he used as a basis for switching his vote. However, whether or not his switch of a vote indicates a link between him and Korts, I do not know. I'm going to go back and look over the whole ordeal right now and will post back shortly.

What do you think now?

scum list:
ckd ✔
guardian

X

elmo

X

bm?

X

kison? ✔
korts? ✔
sensfan? ✔

Why'd you tick Kison?


BM, your vote for rofl (again) in Post 300 wasn't great. rofl already expressed suspicion of you, so it makes sense that he'd want Elmo to explain why he read you as town. On the other hand, most players who questioned rofl's reasons for finding me or DGB town hadn't provided much (or any) reason to think we were scum, anyway. It's kind of like speculating that scum didn't send a kill in when a night passes without a kill.


I'm not sure what to think of Guardian's fixation on DGB. I can appreciate expecting clarity and transparency from a player but I'm beginning to suspect that Guardian could be using his gripe with DGB as an excuse for not involving himself with other issues in the game. I might need to reread to see how true this has been.


Korts is more active now, but I'm still not convinced that he's really trying to catch scum. I'm finding a lot of his argument's reachy. I can point to them later. I want to finish catching up first. I also don't believe DGB is as obviously town as he's saying, which is also weird.

SensFan

, do you think I'm scum?


I'm caught up. This post was kind of boring.

Things I'm thinking:
I find ckd and Korts scummy. I'd be a little shattered if I was wrong about

both

of them. I definitely want at least one of them dead by day 2.
Sens hasn't been hunting scum. This is suspicious.
My impression is that Yos has contributed more theory discussion than game discussion, which is mildly unsettling.
On that note, I reckon the theory discussions are taking up space. I figure we all agree that gut isn't anything to hammer someone on alone. Requests for quantification of gut reads or any other comment like vague assertions are completely reasonable.
I'm trying to think about who the scum are if both of ckd and Korts are town, but no one's coming up obviously. That said there are a number of players who haven't posted very much including RR, Zaz, Sens and, until recently, Elmo. I have a feeling at least one of the scum has been relatively inactive so far.
I wonder what scum are day talking about...


And.. I still need ckd to reply to posts 143 and 214.

[roflcopter]

Is CKD trying to quietly slip his scummy self out from our collective consciousness?

Discuss.

his v/la seems legitimate, but he's not getting out of the limelight that easily

[Guardian]

I was caught up in this game, so I moved to catching up in the other game I am in. Now I have a few things to catch up on in this game. I'll try and do so soon.

[curiouskarmadog]

Is CKD trying to quietly slip his scummy self out from our collective consciousness?

Discuss.

if you really wanted to know the truth, you would meta me..

this is first in line (of 3) to be updated tomorrow..

avoiding the limelight huh?..is this brighter for you DGB?

vote, unvote CKD

thats -2, lets see if the powers that be let me update tomorrow.

discuss

[roflcopter]

so who's up for a theory discussion on self voting when under heavy pressure?

i'm kidding lets just lynch the scum

[Guardian]

ps: people unvote ckd, otherwise it seems that the scum could kill someone and change it from 8 to lynch to 7 to lynch. we don't want ckd lynched unless we want ckd lynched and have him hammered; if he is town and is at 7 votes, the scum can kill someone and get an instant lynch on ckd.

[roflcopter]

i'm mildly confused by what guardian just said, but no, not unvoting

[Guardian]

if ckd is town, lynch -1 basically means lynch, because mafia can kill someone, then there are 13 people alive, then it is 7 to lynch when it is now 8 to lynch.

so, realize that if you vote CKD now, and put him at lynch -1, you are effectively hammering him.

if you all are comfortable with that... then I'll find you suspicious for it.

CKD is under such suspicion and likely lynch that I would like to say some things in his defense, and I have a hell of a lot more I want to say today before ckd gets hammered. I prefer short days, but I prefer that we end days when we choose to, not because we didn't realize scum could kill someone and reduce the requirements to lynch.

[roflcopter]

ok, so then you should be saying you don't want any more votes put on ckd.

not telling us to unvote him, and raising the specter of some convoluted way for mafia to get a quicklynch to scare us into doing so.

[Adel]

Death Scene

Guardian, Tracker, Town-aligned, has been killed

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votecount as of post 361

_{with 13 alive, 7 will lynch before deadline}

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¬curiouskarmadog:

6

:roflcopter, DrippingGoofball, destructor, vollkan, Yosarian2, curiouskarmadog
Korts:

3

:ZazieR, Battle Mage, Elmo
Battle Mage:

2

:SensFan, Korts
Elmo:

1

:Raging Rabbit,
ZazieR:

1

:Kison

No Lynch:

none

not voting:

none

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Day 1's deadline is December 6th at 16:40(UTC)

Countdown timer to deadline

[curiouskarmadog]

nice....seems to me if that was a vig kill (not certian when scum get to kill versus a vig)..that I should have been offed because I have the most "heat"...thanks for the thoughts anyway Guardian..

thats -1...will update tomorrow...unless stopped.

[Elmo]

Vollkan's reply is much nicer than I thought it might be. That's uplifting.

That was a scum kill, and it should (hopefully) be obvious why it happened.

[Elmo]

Also, CKD, I am pointedly unimpressed by the self-vote. Just.. don't. This is daft, whatever alignment you are. Talk to us.

[Yosarian2]

That was a scum kill, and it should (hopefully) be obvious why it happened.

It should be? How so?

Also, not really sure what CKD thinks he's accomplishing with the self vote, but it dosn't really make me want to unvote him.

[destructor]

Hmm.

Unvote
Vote: Korts

ckd, I still want to see you responding to the posts I mentioned.

[destructor]

Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?

[vollkan]

Eh...still, if a person has a gut read on someone, but can't explain why, I'd usually rather they say so then not say so. And I'm not really sure it does make it easier for the scum; I personally find it very interesting to note who's gut feelings match mine, and take that to be a sign that they might be looking at the game in the same way I am.

I'm not against people declaring their gut feelings. I'm simply against gut being used as a basis for actions. There's a difference between:
"X is suspicious"/"Vote: X"
"Why?"
"My gut just tells me so"
and:
"I have an odd feeling about X"

vote, unvote CKD

Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself. In any event, I'd like to know what your thinking in doing this was. Why self-vote or give the appearance of self-voting in the current situation? It's a completely different situation to early game self-voting for discussion-starting, so I feel justified in asking you this.

Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?

Rofl. Reason: Ignoring my questions about his declaration of suspicion on SensFan.

[DrippingGoofball]

Uhh...I'm pretty sure that doesn't count as a self-vote. You vote "nobody" and then unvote yourself.

I noticed that. How come the mod says that CKD is dead, and how come CKD keeps posting?

[curiouskarmadog]

just to be official then.

unvote, vote CKD

Elmo, as town, if I get hammered before I can update tomorrow the person better have a good reason, if not that tells you something...keeping me at -1, will provide a ton of information...though one might not know the value of said information until later days...especially if I do get hung...at this point, I think my lynching will provide the MOST information....my wagon needs to be analyzed...my "supporters" need to be looked at as well..sometimes those who scream "person x" is town the loudest while there is a wagon on them, ends up being scum...look at all the action and conversation my self vote as provided thus far...Des unvoted....now why would he do that? He thought I was scummy, then I self vote and he removes his vote? DGB thinks I am trying to hide (without checking my other games)..

DGB, the mod said I was dead?...what alignment was I? If you saw that I was dead, then why is your vote still on me? Your statement makes a ton of sense as usual.

also, if I was scum, there are a whole other set of reason why a self vote might be helpful..

so your statement about my self vote (not making any sense either alignment) is not that correct...

I agree that sometimes a self vote is pointless and useless...but I think in this particular instance it is a decent move. Also, I have self voted in other games and it became a game changer...so I disagree.

also, when I update tomorrow...I will unvote and vote who I think is the scummiest (I am about 5-6 pages behind, so my vote on copter was dated)....powers that be might want to get their hammer in before tomorrow and it becomes that much harder to lynch me.

soooo, you better get your quick hammer

[destructor]

Des unvoted....now why would he do that?

I could have left you at L-1. I don't see what's wrong with me changing to my other suspect. Also, not including your self-vote, you and Korts are equal in the vote count.

Vollkan and Yos, if not ckd, who would you be voting for? Why?

Rofl. Reason: Ignoring my questions about his declaration of suspicion on SensFan.

Your vote was on ckd for gut. I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the next most suspicious thing you've seen in all 15 pages of this game. What are you thinking about Korts? SensFan? Yos? Elmo?

[roflcopter]

i'm surprised by the guardian kill

i don't see how elmo can be so sure it was the scum kill

ckd needs to go in the ground

vollkan, i thought it went without saying that what i wrote in response to sens in the passage i directed you to made it obvious that i found his actions there scummy. you characterized it as a theory debate, i disagree with you.

voting someone, or threatening to vote someone, for "not answering questions" is still stupid, as kison discovered when i answered his questions and he had no good reason to keep his vote on me.

i agree with destructor.

[vollkan]

Your vote was on ckd for gut

No it wasn't. I've already explicitly said that I take gut as a null-tell for CKD. I jokingly voted CKD over the gut thing, but the point I was addressing seriously was his mimicry of

Yes Minister

through the use of an irregular verb: "I scumhunt early game-style", "You reach and attempt to appear scumhunting"

I'm finding it hard to believe that this is the next most suspicious thing you've seen in all 15 pages of this game

Well I have to disagree with you here. He makes a statement, I request he backs it up, with no explanation he points me to some completely meaningless posts, and then he ignores me (I know he has responded now, and I will get to that).

What are you thinking about Korts?

Scummier-than-average (about 55 on my scale)

As I said at the time, I didn't like his Guardian vote. Accusing Guardian of being "non-committal" when it clearly wasn't the case that Guardian was shirking from having an opinion - he was simply letting CKD fight his own battles. "Non-committal" is just like "WIFOM" - it carries powerful implications, but is open to abuse. Later on, when I pointed this out, he then changed tact and argued that Guardian should be arguing in CKD's defence - leaving a silence as to what was scummy about this

His accusation that Rofl was buddying up by asking why Yos was on a list also seems a bit of a stretch.

I disagree with him on towntells - but that's a theory dispute to be separated from actual in-game scumminess.

SensFan?

Hasn't posted enough, and has mainly engaged in minor theory points more than anything else. I don't have a read here yet, but he needs to post more clearly.

Yos?

I don't like his vote for CKD, the only justification supplied for it being "Based on some weird feelings I got from them earlier, I'm currently trying to decide between a CKD vote and a Guardian vote." Gut, in other words, and not at a very early stage of the game. He also hasn't been doing very much pushing or questioning. Again, needs to post more.

Elmo?

Pretty much neutral. Major theory dispute, obviously. I largely agree with the reasons he gives for the Korts vote.

vollkan, i thought it went without saying that what i wrote in response to sens in the passage i directed you to made it obvious that i found his actions there scummy. you characterized it as a theory debate, i disagree with you.

Rofl, I've stated several times now that I see no basis for finding scumminess in that exchange. Rather than simply repeating that it is "obvious" (because, frankly, it ISN'T), how about explaining to me what was scummy there?

I'll quote the exchange again:

The Exchange between Sens and rofl

I actually agree with ckd on all of this. Having a gut scum read on page 4-5 is not the same at alll of claiming to have a gut town read on page 3.

I actually agree with ckd on all of this. Having a gut scum read on page 4-5 is not the same at alll of claiming to have a gut town read on page 3.

whats the difference, exactly?

See something scummy and you can get a gut scum read.
Seeing something 'townie' can hardly lead to a gut town read.

i don't see why not

See something scummy and you can get a gut scum read.
Seeing something 'townie' can hardly lead to a gut town read.

and why does townie need quotation marks but scummy doesn't?

Please explain to me what there merits suspicion.

voting someone, or threatening to vote someone, for "not answering questions" is still stupid, as kison discovered when i answered his questions and he had no good reason to keep his vote on me.

It isn't stupid at all. Pointing out that Kison had no reasons after you explained yourself doesn't at all affect the validity of voting somebody before they provide reasons. It's incumbent upon you to justify yourself and, right now, your repeated practice of pointing me to a set of passages which give no indication of basis for suspicion is failing that responsibility dismally.