Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Wisdom]

shos, I'll try this once. If you want to listen, good, otherwise feel free to scumread me for the remainder of the game, I don't particularly care.

Everything you pointed out are playstyle tells. All those things are things I do as town (and as scum) all the time. Now, my playstyle is anti-town on its own, because as Whiskers pointed out, my scumhunting is very egocentric and I fail to work with town. The arrogance this produces makes people who don't know me believe I am scum, because I act as one as opposed to as part of a group. I have been attempting to change that following a recent game that my behavior destroyed the game, but it's not easy and I am feeling like I am just reverting back to my usual play anyway.

Now this game has lots of people who know me, so you won't be getting any support. Maybe one or two will get paranoid for a while, but that's it. So your choices are either to accept that you are wrong and I am town, and move on to actually scumhunt instead of whining about how you don't like my play, or keep whining and getting scumread in the process.

[Wisdom]

I have not played with Whiskers before. Like you, he was annoyed by my playstyle for the same reason; he doesn't know me.

Chain of Command
Probably the best example, but if you pick almost any towngame from my wiki you'll still find it.

[Wisdom]

I don't know what you want a response to, Matt.

[Wisdom]

?

[Wisdom]

Because this sort of scumread on me comes from people who don't know me and think that my antitown playstyle equals scum. I explained that already.

pedit: Because I won't defend a townread on me. I don't care. Matt is smart enough to snap out of his little paranoia.

[Wisdom]

shos knows better, indeed. He sees everyone is strongly townreading me. He wouldn't antagonize me like that.

[Wisdom]

Nachomamma has been whiteknighting Malakittens.

And?

Nachomamma has been the most subtle in trying to move votes to the shos wagon.

How did he do that?

[Wisdom]

MattP - Town
ooba - Town
Mirari - Town
Whiskers - Town
Desperado - Town

Nachomamma8 - Town?
ArcAngel9* - Town?
Malakittens - Town?
pirate mollie - Town?
Grimgroove - Town?
shos - Town?

penguin_alien - Scum?

I don't like my reads at all right now. Too many people who look like town but I can't confidently say they are.
Grim might have a point on Nacho - solely the fact I am not confident about him being town in page 34 means something is not right.

[Wisdom]

Because I liked their posts and didn't think they were coming from scum.

[Wisdom]

Anytime.


... wtf is that, Nacho? Why are you playing like this?

[Wisdom]

Grim, you're really scum, aren't you? How the fuck would that make anyone conftown?

[Wisdom]

ooba, I disagree. When I told him I'm unsure about lynching penguin, he did say that the least we could do is pressure Penguin so she actually posts something. That indicates that his initial statements towards lynching penguin were also intended to pressure her.

[Wisdom]

Nacho, you usually pick a suspect and push him. I disagree with you and push someone else. In the end, most likely, I sheep you. And most of the time, your suspect will actually be scum and mine town.
That's how it has been for almost all our games.

Where is that now? Who are you pushing? Even your shos vote was sheeping Matt and you are not really trying to push shos, to encourage us to lynch him. You are also not really scumhunting for anyone else. You are very passive and just going with the flow of the game instead of taking initiatives.

Not to mention, I didn't like your defending of me earlier. I expected you to be slightly more paranoid about me. You've never caught me, after all.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, why are you trying to make Grim out to be scum?

I'm trying to read him.

[Wisdom]

Can we lynch Peng, please?

That's all you have to say?

What happened that strengthed your belief that penguin should be lynched?

What do you think about mollie, about shos, about Nacho, about everything that is happening in this thread?

[Wisdom]

Yes, and I'm not even confident in that one.

[Wisdom]

And who is scum with Mala in that case?

[Wisdom]

That's unfair, Matt. My tunneling is known for its toxicity, so warning me to tone it down is fair game, regardless of alignment.

That said, I still don't understand how Mala, whom I have tunneled on when she was town, reacted that way.

[Wisdom]

whom I have never tunneled on*

[Wisdom]

Would you be confident with a shos lynch right now?

[Wisdom]

Your responses to his wall look more like a "you're wrong dude, he's town, those are playstyle differences" than a "you're scum and this case is opportunistic" or something. I do not get the feeling you think he is scum and you want him lynched like I usually do.

[Wisdom]

and why:

[Wisdom]

she's more in the spotlight than she's comfortable being as scum.

Seriously? She's hardly in the spotlight. What has she been doing other than pushing peng?

[Wisdom]

So it's okay for her to just push one player and disregard the rest of the game? Really?

[Wisdom]

Mala, do you remember what happened the last time you decided to ignore me?

[Wisdom]

That looks fake, Nacho. You never expected me to say that? How so? If you are referring to my tunnels, even when I have them, I don't ignore the rest of the game. But even if I did, are we talking about me here? Does Mala play anything like me?

How is what she is doing ok? She is only responding to Desp, she is only spamming "lynch peng" and she is doing nothing. How are you not doubting your read on her at all given such play?

[Wisdom]

Why can you not see him as scum?

[Wisdom]

I don't see you hunting for partners or townreads.

[Wisdom]

Can we lynch Peng, please?

That's all you have to say?

What happened that strengthed your belief that penguin should be lynched?

What do you think about mollie, about shos, about Nacho, about everything that is happening in this thread?

I'd like an answer to this and a readlist.

[Wisdom]

Do you find it impossible that mollie has been using this Whiskers thing as a distraction?

[Wisdom]

I've seen Nacho failing to read Mala before, so your second option is not that unlikely.

Also, Mala is not the only person Nacho defends; he also defended me.

I do think there should be a scum in them, and Mala looks more likely right now.

[Wisdom]

It could be possible, but I was townreading her early.

I mean I don't even have a read on Whiskers yet. I am not the best at reading that kid.

How do you not have a read on him? Did you read his exchange with mollie? Did you reach no conclusion from it?
What about his exchanges with me or Matt?

And why does the fact you were townreading her early, as you say, keep you from updating your read based on her recent behavior? Do you think mollie cannot have a strong scumgame and fool you?

[Wisdom]

So what do you think about him in this game, especially since you've played with him before?

[Wisdom]

See, she reponds like this, refuses to be helpful, and then I have to accept she is town. I can't.

[Wisdom]

Bad comparison. I am trying to get reads on everyone and help the game go forward. Mala is doing nothing.

[Wisdom]

Desp, what was your point there? I think Mala was responding to my "I do think one of them is scum".

[Wisdom]

ooba, why do you not like Grimgroove?

Also shos is not on Nacho's wagon, he voted him to test me (or so he says).

[Wisdom]

How? I am asking you to read Whiskers and you tell me "it looks like his town game and one post like his scum game".

That's helpful? Comment on his content, comment on his exchange with mollie, comment on his exchanges with me. You have seen the guy in another game.

But no, you just rush a forced read and run away.

[Wisdom]

Because she's not commenting on anything, maybe?

[Wisdom]

She does nothing other than spam "let's lynch penguin"? She does not get engaged in the discussions? She claims that she's hunting for "penguin's buddies" (as if penguin flipped already) and for townreads but she's doing neither?

[Wisdom]

They are

[Wisdom]

Mala we are on page 39 and you still have done nothing. It's not just this time. I shouldn't have to ask you to provide content, you should be doing it on your own.

[Wisdom]

This is Penguin's scum game, but you're not seeing it.

Are you fucking kidding me? Do you know who I am voting?

[Wisdom]

As I stated last time I chased her when she was scum she shrughed me off very similar to what's she's doing now. She's not posting, but coasting. This IS her scum game. When she was town and I did go after she reacted differently. She was engaging most of the players and this game she is not doing that at all. Plus I noticed in her town game she moves her votes around faster than she does in her scum games. All of which she's not doing.

While I don't disagree with the meta itself; why are you not waiting for her to actually post, but instead are encouraging people to speedlynch her? Why do you rule out that she is just inactive for her own reasons and jump to the conclusion she is inactive because she is scum?

[Wisdom]

If I see a post by her I don't like I'll calll her out about it.

So you

like

the posts where she is stating again and again that the Whiskers' "attack" on her is personal, while it obviously isn't?

[Wisdom]

I really thought he had a vote restriction on him

You thought that just because he didn't RVS? Why? Have you never seen people skipping RVS?

[Wisdom]

Shos and Grim is kinda hard to give a pure read on them. Both of them are buddying each other hard; overlapping with each others reads. Gut says one is scum and one is town; wagon says Shos might be town, but doesn't tell me what Grim is. Facts say this is too obvious for scum partners. So either one is town and the other is scum or one is town and the other is town.

Eew wtf did I just read

First of all, you are completely wrong. shos

has

been buddying Grim, Grim has changed his read on shos a thousand times AND called shos out on his excessive buddying.
Secondly, "wagon says shos might be town"? Wtf is this? How?

This post sounded like typical bullshit scum make up.

[Wisdom]

Your Whiskers read is terrible too. He was pushing mollie because he didn't like her attitude. Just like he pushed me, just like he pushed Matt. It's his way of scumhunting. Nothing to do with how you are pushing penguin.

You're either scum, or you have paid such little attention to the game that you don't know what's what. Or both, which is what I'm going with.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mala

[Wisdom]

Arc

please replace out if you're going to continue doing that. We need a 13th player.

[Wisdom]

along with I'm only willing to hammer Wisdom

That's not what he said, he said that if someone puts me to L-1, he will hammer.

[Wisdom]

Why didn't you ask me about that earlier?

I didn't care about it, I found it stupid and I had better things to care about. But now you keep repeating it in your attempts to justify your reads, which is bullshit.

[Wisdom]

I'm aware Shos has been buddying Grim.

You said they both were hardbuddying each other, so no, you are not aware.

The wagon on Shos built a built quicker than I expected which leads to me that Shos could be town.

The speed of a wagon has no bearing on the wagonee's alignment. Find better excuses.

So having a Peng flip would give me more information on others players.

So now it's an information lynch? I thought you were just sure that penguin is scum. You can't even be consistent.

It's not "typical" bullshit scum make up. This is how I form some of my reads early in Day 1; I have been known to do it with some of my hydras and sometimes my partners don't even understand. It's just how I think; how I play; how I hunt. If that makes me sound scum so be it, but that's my thoughts on the process of the Shos-wagon.

It is. "hey guys it cant be scum-scum, it must be town-scum, and this one is the scum, lets lynch". Forced conclusions based on nothing that scum make up all the time.

[Wisdom]

I asked you for reads precisely because I knew your reads would suck. If you had made up better reads, you wouldn't need me to ask you, you would have posted them.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: penguin

Go join the town pile, Mala. Thank you for your time.

[Wisdom]

Let's see what penguin has to say, explanations later.

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:

[Wisdom]

Luckily? You don't want people to townread me?

[Wisdom]

shos, any comments on mala's latest posts?

[Wisdom]

What do you think about her last exchange with me?

[Wisdom]

note to self:
read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5502557 later.

Did you read it?

[Wisdom]

he then pulls another argument against whiskers.

oi shos, I never bothered to read your case properly, so I just noticed this.

This:

I think the fact that Wisdom can't understand and has to dip his fingers into every post MattP makes, makes Wisdom more likely scum

This is a misrep, there's no post of Matt's that I didn't understand.

is an answer to your

and wis nobody misrepped you here.

and NOT an argument against Whiskers, like you claimed in your case.

[Wisdom]

so let me understand - what changed your mind?

As to what changed my mind; it was two things. Desp and Matt stating they think Whiskers is town, which led me to reevaluate and see that I might be wrong, and, more importantly, you trying to defend him from my accusations. I didn't think you'd be scum together, so I moved my vote back to you and changed my mind about Whiskers.

[Wisdom]

Now, you said you're very "convinced" I am scum. Is it still for the same reasons? Because if you as much as looked into one of my towngames, you'd see all of them refuted.

[Wisdom]

What do you think about her Mirari read?

[Wisdom]

You were Mafia, not WW

[Wisdom]

And I tunneled more on you than her

[Wisdom]

daYUUUUmn you wisdom, dat readlist is soooo stupid I just can't help but wanting to lynch you again.

What do you mean, "again"? Weren't you convinced I'm scum?

[Wisdom]

his playstyle appears to fit both alignments' meta's of him.

You have not played with me-scum. Do explain this.

[Wisdom]

I buddied grim only,

lol

VOTE: shos

[Wisdom]

I'll probably move my vote later

Why?

[Wisdom]

What scumgame did you read?

[Wisdom]

Mala do you seriously have no comments on penguin's post?

[Wisdom]

Whiskers, any thoughts on 1030?

[Wisdom]

It's L-2 by my count.

But that's interesting, I have a different theory. She is going to support your vote was a bussing vote and push you after shos flips scum. Knowing mollie, that "interesting" was "I caught your buddy". Whether it's scum mollie bussing shos or town mollie continuing to be stuck I'm not completely sure, but I'm leaning towards the former.

[Wisdom]

none of the posts in the spoilers contained questions they were statements made by wis

No, they were refutations to her points. She was expected to answer.

[Wisdom]

I'm sicka nd tired from wisdom using the 'playstyle differences' as a reason to simply erase 99% of what's going on.

When did that happen? The only thing that actually is erased by my playstyle is your "case" on me. That's like 0.1% of what's going on.

[Wisdom]

Is there anyone who thinks that the similarity-extraordinaire between what matt says and what wisdom says immediately after, in many occurances in the game, is really just a coincidence?

Hi, wild manipulation attempt

I'll answer that for you - no, it's not a coincidence. What Matt, Desp, and anyone who I think is town says has an effect on my reads. I trust those players to correct me when I am wrong.

[Wisdom]

wis there are no words

What, am I wrong?

[Wisdom]

Nope. penguin is town.

[Wisdom]

Her last post is good and I like her read on Mirari.

[Wisdom]

penguin, what do you think of the mollie/shos connections I've pointed out?

[Wisdom]

How can you not know? One is what I just told you, mollie bussing shos and hoping to frame you as the partner.

The other was in 678/680.

I think Desp mentioned one too at some point, though I didn't agree much with that one.

[Wisdom]

btw mollie didn't deny my theory, but only said I am wrong about her being scum, so I guess we can treat it as a fact.

pedit: It's that and 678/680.

Why do you think shos is town? :/ He doesn't make any sense as town.

[Wisdom]

She cannot possibly lynch shos-town then accuse Whiskers for shos flipping town, when she would have helped in that lynch. It doesn't make sense. What she's doing is lynching shos as Whiskers' partner (hence the interesting), and she's going right back to Whiskers after shos flips scum.

[Wisdom]

Interesting Fact #1: Hestia was the first Olympian because her parents were Titans, and she was the oldest child.

You forgot this one too, Whiskers

[Wisdom]

you will almost NEVER see quickwagons rise on scum

I've seen plenty. It's null.

[Wisdom]

I can't decide if shos or Mala looks worse

[Wisdom]

I didn't answer them because the only last part was a question to me. The rest weren't really 'questions'

Are you kidding me?
Refuting your statement about what Matt did is not worth a response?
You are practically admitting to ignoring me and answering as little as you can.
Which you do as scum.

[Wisdom]

I could quote every line Mala said and say why I don't like it, but I don't see the point. The point is Mala is not town. This is not Mala-town, and every time I read her posts, I can't help but think I'm reading scum posts.


Since I purposefully let it unanswered before, I will answer it now. I unvoted Mala because I thought for a second that she was willing to talk with me and try convincing me I'm wrong about her, something that she doesn't do as scum. As scum, she knows that when I catch her, she is not likely to change my mind no matter what she does, so she usually resorts to ignoring me and hoping I'll get distracted by someone else acting scummy. I stated that she can join the townpile to she how she will take it - will she try to work with me? Will she continue explaining herself to me? Will she find my sudden switch on her scummy and suspect me?
What was the answer? She took my 'townread' and ran.

The other reason was to see who would sheep me. I was very happy to see Desp continuing pushing his scumread on her despite my action, and not very happy seeing Matt stating he agrees that she is town.


I cannot see her being town. Not when her one suspect, the one she has been pushing since the beginning, finally posts, and she completely ignores it and responds to irrelevant things. Not when she is trying to make shos look bad like she's doing. Not when her reason for not scumreading me is "I don't remember his scumgame, but Im not going to change my read on him because this isn't it.". ...Really?

I really don't want to let shos go today, but I really really don't want to let Mala go today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

[Wisdom]

By now i already hav. It doesnt cssy you are town. It says thatyour lay sucks snd itscreally hardvto reaf yiu.

"By now I already have. It doesnt say you are town. It says that your play sucks and its really hard to read you".

That's what I guess it's saying.

[Wisdom]

I just realized Mala is on her wagon. That increases the credibility of the wagon and the likelihood of penguin being scum if you ask me.

ooba, what do you think about this? Why did she mention Mala out of nowhere and why would she think her presence on a wagon increases its credibility?

[Wisdom]

Re: 1010.
Calling him for a 'misrep' ratherbthan a 'mistake' IS againzt whislera.
Point was there was no reason whataoever to unvote all of a sudden.

Did uo readmy entier wall?

I told you why I unvoted, it was not all of a sudden. I was still in a "Are they right about him being town? Am I wrong?" phase, so when you supported him and claimed he was not misrepping me, I showed you where he was misrepping me.

Yes, I read it all. If you want an answer to something else, tell me.

[Wisdom]

Checking what you're going to post would be good though.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, can you link me a game where scumMala does what you describe her doing in 1116? If you can bring me a nice example or two, I'll sheep you there.

I'll try.
These three are my games with scum-Mala. (There's one more but she was in a hydra and I didn't interact with her much, so I'm skipping it)
Everyone's being Watched
Monks and Masons
Newbie 1425

Now what's common in all of them is that I sooner or later realized Mala is scum and pushed her lynch. I didn't manage to get it in any of these cases, since the first one was lylo, and in the other two she nightkilled me when the day ended. In all of them, when I expressed I think she is scum, she tried to ignore me and shrug the scumread off instead of convincing me otherwise.

Spoiler: First

In the first one, see 585, where she responds to my "you're so going next" with a "cool" or, more importantly, our exchange in lylo, starting in 938. See how I ask her a shitload of questions and she ignores them and responds to something else. Then she responds after I prod her - just like in this game she fails to respond to things and she does so only if someone prods her (for example her lack of response to penguin's post)
I respond to her responses, she goes back to not responding. Although, in this last case it's justified, since her scumbuddy (who was Grimgroove, btw), had just logged in and they wanted to quickhammer me.

Spoiler: Second

In the second one, heh. See 1100 for a case I make on her, ironically enough the push on goodmorning I am describing there looks so much like her push on penguin here. Or 1239 - like here, I was feeling she was doing completely nothing. Her 1282 - she tells me to shut the fuck up (I was spamming that we have to lynch Mala and getting angry that mollie wanted to lynch goodmorning instead). And again in 1311. No trying to convince me I'm wrong or anything. Also see 1487 about her thoughts on tunnelers (since it's so townish for some when she did it here). See 1493 ("im doing things, you just don't care") and compare it with her 954 here - they are the same post with different words. Well, she tries to respond a little because of my mass spamming about her being scum, but again there's no intent to make me realize I am wrong there, just defending to save herself from being lynched. Then Mala went inactive for like 15 pages, during which time I had compromised to lynch someone else (read: distracted) and didn't spam about Mala having to die anymore. She tried to make the person I was pushing look bad (2610 for example) - which is very similar to how she tries to make shos look bad here. Then she killed me on N1.
Btw, this is the game I was talking about earlier where Nacho didn't want to listen to me about Mala.

Spoiler: Third

Third game. This is the one I referred to in the beginning, regarding her whining about me tunneling on her. She was playing as her alt, Evil Regals, which was hidden to me at the beginning. I was scumreading her anyway, once again for lack of content. During D2, she revealed she is Mala and replaced in with her main. When I saw that, I got much more confident in my scumread (see 468). She whined that I am always tunneling on her (473-475) and once again told me that "I just think I am right about her" (477). In 478 I ask her to tell me what game I was wrong about her in, but she ignored the question (hence why I re-asked it in this game). She also ignored my questions in 523/524. Once again, there's no trying to convince me I am wrong about her, and in this game I wasn't even that stubborn about that. We lynched her scumbuddy (I had to compromise, because once again I couldn't get her lynched), and then she killed me. Then they lynched her the next day, at least.

[Wisdom]

MattP is scum.

Why?

[Wisdom]

How does it have anything to do with his long-term survival? He just wanted to try it right then, which he did. He didn't say that he's planning to do it later in the game.

That said, you might have a point. Matt has only played twice with me, one was my third game onsite and in the other was my worst scumgame ever. He doesn't know anything about me, yet he has been very weirdly confident in me being town. It's something that has been troubling me.

[Wisdom]

On that note, I also very much liked how penguin didn't just go "ok Wisdom-town, Matt-town, blah blah" like scum would most likely have, but actually did not understand what's so town about Matt and only put him as likely town due to me and others thinking that is the case.

[Wisdom]

btw a Mala/Matt scumteam could explain the whole wiki thing that looks so out of character for Mala. They most likely talked pre-game; maybe it was Matt's idea.

But those are speculations. Let's see Mala flipping first.

[Wisdom]

Why not?

[Wisdom]

Why not?

You don't seem to have any idea of my playstyle or human essence in general

Well, I don't. Which is why I don't see why you wouldn't do it. And I won't exactly take your word for it.

Anyway, this is pointless until Mala actually flips scum.

[Wisdom]

What you just quoted wasn't buddying, it was me considering Matt being Mala's partner. Try actually reading the game.

[Wisdom]

Also you are for some reason thinking that me and Matt know each other well. You are wrong. Read this:

That said, you might have a point. Matt has only played twice with me, one was my third game onsite and in the other was my worst scumgame ever. He doesn't know anything about me, yet he has been very weirdly confident in me being town. It's something that has been troubling me.

[Wisdom]

Convenient how? Neither me nor Matt have been under any kind of pressure, so our "buddying" did not serve any purpose. Unless if you consider Whiskers and yourself not liking my playstyle being pressure.

[Wisdom]

You mean me and shos?
Nah, I actually understand what he's talking about, and it actually makes me feel better about him.

Did you read my meta on Mala?

[Wisdom]

@shos
My playstyle = how much I post?

I found that noteworthy because you admitted to buddying as opposed to saying that you had a strong townread on Grim.

[Wisdom]

@Nacho
tl;dr: Mala is scum. Sheep.

[Wisdom]

@mod

MOD: if enough people support that, can we force-replace AA9?

[Wisdom]

@shos
k, I see your point. Yeah, like I said, it has been troubling me how Matt has been townreading me without having the necessary meta to support that. He could be easily doing what you described.

@Matt
The more you say things like that, the more I believe you're actually scum

[Wisdom]

@nacho
Yeah, right after everyone and their dog commented on how this buddying is weird. What's better than act a little suspicious to dispel that?

[Wisdom]

@shos
My playstyle = how much I post?

?
You said my playstyle is the same as town and as scum, but the only explanation you gave to that was "you posted a lot as scum too"
So all there is to my playstyle is how much I post?

[Wisdom]

Matt, you sound pretty frustrated - were me and Grim dead on with our theory?

[Wisdom]

What's this immoral thing you speak of?

Townreading Mala because she threatened to replace out.
Somehow that's immoral to do.

[Wisdom]

shos, yeah, can't you use [post] tags when you are referring to posts? It's pretty annoying

[Wisdom]

@nacho
Yeah, right after everyone and their dog commented on how this buddying is weird. What's better than act a little suspicious to dispel that?

From what I remembered, Matt townread shos for a dumb reason, you townread shos immediately after, cue paranoia train.

And? There needs to be a reason for there to be fake paranoia.

In other news, you're still being weird, Nacho.

[Wisdom]

Matt, nobody is calling you immoral, because that's not immoral to do. Yet you're somehow spamming about that in your last ~10 posts, and that's scummy as hell.

[Wisdom]

Nope Nacho, we're lynching Mala. I'm not going to repeat my mistake of compromising and letting her live.

[Wisdom]

btw I am not tunneling, Nacho. I've tried seeing how Mala could be town. She isn't. She looks too much like how she is as scum. I explained that thoroughly when Whiskers asked me to.

pedit: nope.

[Wisdom]

But I don't like at all how you try to argue that I am tunneling, especially when you've seen me being right about Mala before. If anything, you are the one who is unreasonably convinced that Mala must be town.

Grim might just be right about you being her buddy.

[Wisdom]

Grim, what do you think about my theory of Mala's wiki thing being pre-planned by Matt?
His response to it in 132 kind of sounds theatrical, I believe.

[Wisdom]

But I don't like at all how you try to argue that I am tunneling, especially when you've seen me being right about Mala before. If anything, you are the one who is unreasonably convinced that Mala must be town.

Grim might just be right about you being her buddy.

I saw you were right about Mala while I was calling her scum once. Do you remember how I reacted in that game?

I do. You were "Wisdom, compromise on Mara" and I listened like an idiot.

shos is the Mara of that game. Even to the point that Mala is trying to make him look bad, like she did with Mara there. And penguin is the goodmorning of that game - Mala's push. There are too many similarities, you are not blind, you should see them.

[Wisdom]

Explain your townread on her to me.

[Wisdom]

She has done nothing.
There is no conviction.
Actor thing looks fake and out of character for her - like a pre-prepared plan.
Her tunnel on peng is bullshit, peng is town.
She is fake as hell, not genuine.
Engaged? She ignored penguin's post and only responded to it when I prodded her.

Please.

[Wisdom]

okay nacho is town

Why?

[Wisdom]

No, that was Mala giving her reads after I said she is doing nothing.

[Wisdom]

When she is town I don't have to prod her to do things. She does them on her own, because she cares.

[Wisdom]

Seriously, she is pushing penguin, right? She is like 100% sure penguin is scum. penguin posts a wall after days of inactivity, and Mala completely ignores it and responds to completely irrelevant things (that might hurt her image if she didn't). Then after I prod her and ask her why she is not responding to it, she decided to do so.

Why are you ignoring this? Why the hell would she not respond to it the first chance she got?

[Wisdom]

I didn't expect a town reaction because her doing nothing was already something not town.
I guess a town reaction could have been explaining why she has not done stuff.
Instead she tried to lie about having actually done stuff and she procceeded to do stuff right there and then. That's a scum reaction.

[Wisdom]

Bullshit.

[Wisdom]

I don't see why Malascum would refuse to respond to penguins wall. Do you think she just couldn't? Because she later demonstrated she could. Do you think... She didn't think it was important for her image to respond to?

Because it required caring. As town, she would care to respond immediately. As scum, she didn't care. It could wait.

[Wisdom]

How does she reach out to me? How is it any different than how she "reached out to me" in the other games I described?
And what stuff did she do? She has still done nothing. Providing a bunch of fake reads isn't doing stuff.

[Wisdom]

shos, you have clearly not read 1116 or 1132.

[Wisdom]

Since I have reminded her twice that her ignoring me is a scumtell, she did not have that option.

[Wisdom]

It doesn't matter what she can call it, dude. She knows that if I tunnel on her, she cannot convince me otherwise. No matter how she calls what, it won't help her. She has to avoid letting me think she is scum altogether.

Grim is town enough, and I don't understand how that's any relevant. He is not Mala. I have different tells to read him.

[Wisdom]

instead of just saying she's doing stuff like she usually does.

Spoiler: yeah right

I'm hunting people it's not like I have her as my only scum read and it's not like I'm not looking for town reads either.

Lies. I'm not only responding to Desp. You're kidding me right?

See, she reponds like this, refuses to be helpful, and then I have to accept she is town. I can't.

I am being helpful; you're the one refusing to believe what I'm saying isn't helpful.

Especially this last quote. Tell me how it's any different from this or this.

[Wisdom]

It amazes me that the case that is being peddled around right now is "townies don't need to be prodded they produce content by themselves" with an AA9 in the mix.

Wait.

I said no such thing.

I said that Mala-town does that.

We are talking about Mala here, not about any townie.

Nacho, you're scum, aren't you?

[Wisdom]

She did not do anything different. She is acting exactly like she did in her other scum games. Which I have already explained.

[Wisdom]

She did not do anything different. She is acting exactly like she did in her other scum games. Which I have already explained.

You said she ignored you and didn't do shit. I showed where she did the opposite of both of those things. I showed that a while ago. You still have not rebutted that point. You haven't rebutted a lot of points.

I have rebutted everything. You don't want to listen.
She did not do the opposite of those things. She has still not done shit and she has still been ignoring me - I had to remind her that her ignoring me is a scumtell twice in this game.

[Wisdom]

So, ready steady go:

Mala is scum because she responded immediately and produced content when Wisdom accused her of not producing content. This is a contradiction to her normal scum meta of ignoring Wisdom and not doing anything.

Mala is also scum because she ignored the penguin case until Wisdom prodded her. This is because Mala cares less as scum; she cares more as town and wouldn't leave a big wall to respond to until later.

That's complete bullshit and not my case.

[Wisdom]

Okay I foresee myself going really angry and starting shouting at people to lynch Mala, so I'm just going to accept Nacho is completely blind and stubborn (or scum, but doubt it) and end this exchange.

I am not going to support any other lynch today, barring someone scumclaiming.

[Wisdom]

But I don't like at all how you try to argue that I am tunneling, especially when you've seen me being right about Mala before. If anything, you are the one who is unreasonably convinced that Mala must be town.

Grim might just be right about you being her buddy.

9__9



Sorry hun, but this

really, really

reads as, "You disagree with me? You suggest I might be tunneling? SCUM! YOU ARE THE SCUM!!"

Good, that's how it should read. I don't like people unreasonably disagreeing with me.

[Wisdom]

I do have to ask though, why is [other parts of the game], including [the wagon/attack on her] "completely irrelevant? Mala is only allowed to talk about the scumread she's tunneling? Er...

Because when you are town, priority is catching scum. When you are scum, priority is maintaining a good image so you don't get lynched.

[Wisdom]

So two things on my list to check:

Number of games with Wisdom and Nacho.
My gender discussion in any games revolving Shos.

...

Do I need to comment on this?

Look at what she fucking cares to respond. Things that have ZERO importance.

[Wisdom]

I am going to stop here because if Whiskers' post is any indication, I will do that thing again where I will make people not like me and not lynch scum because of that.

Whiskers, you are misunderstanding how I am using "she is ignoring me". I tried my best to explain to you how this is scum-Mala and how it is the exact same thing as her other games. Now if you want to sheep Nacho who does his best to misunderstand me because he always believes my tunnels are incorrect, be my guest.

[Wisdom]

god can we plz lynch whiskers already

We're never lynching Whiskers.

[Wisdom]

She seems pretty protown oriented in her discussion and suspects. Did you all suffer a collective stroke?

Scum can seem pretty protown, your point being?

[Wisdom]

hai fitz

[Wisdom]

okay I don't want to lynch whiskers anymore

who do you want to lynch

[Wisdom]

Remind me why you have Matt as town, mollie

[Wisdom]

It doesn't look genuine at all to me.

[Wisdom]

Is that all? Didn't you have him as town before that too?

[Wisdom]

How is he retarded? He's right, you dodged my question about who you want to lynch.

[Wisdom]

Is that all? Didn't you have him as town before that too?

what are you talking about

Matt. Why is he town. Didn't you have him as town before the moral thing too?

[Wisdom]

It doesn't look genuine at all to me.

what was disingenuous about it?

The fact it doesn't make sense. Townreading a scumbuddy for doing something that could be considered immoral is not immoral itself.

[Wisdom]

Is that all? Didn't you have him as town before that too?

what are you talking about

Matt. Why is he town. Didn't you have him as town before the moral thing too?

yes

Why

[Wisdom]

How is he retarded? He's right, you dodged my question about who you want to lynch.

no I didn't. I answered you.

So the answer is peng and mala, and among them you prefer peng?

[Wisdom]

Is he different as scum?

[Wisdom]

How is he retarded? He's right, you dodged my question about who you want to lynch.

no I didn't. I answered you.

So the answer is peng and mala, and among them you prefer peng?

yes

Then vote mala with me

[Wisdom]

Because you just said you want to lynch her and penguin?

[Wisdom]

No, I don't care about your faked moral things.

[Wisdom]

So, you heard it here first, folks.

Mala/Matt/mollie is the scumteam.
Replace Mala with nacho if I'm somehow wrong there.

Everyone else is town.

[Wisdom]

/clap clap

[Wisdom]

So, you heard it here first, folks.

Mala/Matt/mollie is the scumteam.

Replace Mala with nacho if I'm somehow wrong there.

Everyone else is town.

I thought you were most certain about your Mala-read? The thing in bold suggests that's the one uyou're least certain about. Could you explain?

Mollie/Malakittens/MattP is the scumteam.

That's my highly educated guess.

It is the read I'm most certain about. I just don't see Nacho being scum with Mala given the extraordinary amount of WKing. I think that if Nacho is scum, Mala is town.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, can I convince you to hop onto mollie?

No.
Not only Mala is way scummier than her, her lynch will also be a great source of information due to the variety of reads on her (strong scumreads, strong townreads, etc).
mollie unfortunately can be stupid sometimes. I agree that this is too stupid even for mollie, but I won't lynch her over Mala for that.

[Wisdom]

I'll try compressing all my thoughts in this single post.

Spoiler: Why Mala is scum

• She has ignored posts she should be responding to and only did so after prodded about it or didn't do it at all.
  
• She has been focusing on a single player and has done little if any scumhunting. When her one suspect posted, she didn't care about the post until later.
  
• She has repeatedly addressed, pointed out, or generally placed her focus on irrelevant things or things with zero value in regards to finding scum. Notably, some of those things could have some value to appearing less scummy. An example would be "I have to go see the number of the games I have with Nacho and with Wisdom". Nobody cares.
  
• She made a huge deal of my "tunneling" on her in the beginning of the game, back when what I was doing wasn't even remotely resembling a tunnel. She even threatened to replace out. It is completely fake if you consider that I have never tunneled on her before when she was town. I have tunneled on her twice when she was scum.
  
• Her "I thought MattP is an Actor" thing is out of character for her and looks fake. Imo, this even looks like it was pre-planned by a scumpartner, especially considering Matt's reply to it. But that's speculation. The point is it's fake.
  
• The reads she has provided do not seem natural. For example, her mollie read is weird. She used something completely null, mollie's chair thing, to enhance her townread on her, which was there since early for no apparent reason, and she has not doubted it at all despite mollie being completely weird and useless.
  
• Similarities with other Mala-scum games I have witnessed. I went into details about that in a previous post.
  
• There are times that Mala looks like she is not following the game closely, such as her "penguin is scum and you don't want to see it" to me, when I had stated that I am scumreading penguin, but some posts of her like 879(dude he (mattp) took a break) shows she is actually following and picking up even little details like that. Which means that when it looks like she is not following, it's an act.

Spoiler: Why Matt is scum

• As noted by others, he is less active and less engaged as compared to when he is town [
  counter argument
  : He claimed he is changing his play after his break]
  
• His buddying on me. People who don't know me enough get paranoid with my egocentric playstyle and think I am scum (see shos and Whiskers). Matt didn't doubt his read on me but only when people started stating their suspicion of the mutual buddying. And then found an excuse to go back to townreading me, too easily.
  
• His last posts since the "morality issue" have been centered around it. It's like he stopped caring about the game and started caring only about people "finding him immoral". What he did cannot be considered immoral, no matter which way you look at it; but even so, that's not even what's important. What's important is that he is overreacting and using that thing as a distraction.
  
• His involvement in Mala's "Actor" thing in the beginning - he reacted instantly when Mala began that, and his response was a little theatrical. It could point to it being a pre-organised plan. Again, speculation, and this point will only matter if Mala flips scum.
  
• He has stopped scumhunting (third point relevant) and has parked his vote on shos.

Spoiler: Why mollie is scum

• Her Whiskers push is too nonsensical and stupid, even for mollie. She should understand by now that Whiskers plays like that, and she should at least be ignoring him if not having fixed the issue between them. The whole thing is an act and a distraction.
  
• She is not scumhunting (above point relevant). She should have some suspects by now - she has none. When asked who she wants to lynch, she dodged and said that penguin is better than Mala. Which was not an answer.
  
• Some of her reads looks very fake. For instance, the read she gave on MattP in 1338 looks like a textbook fake townread that applies to every scenario.
  
• Meta. This is not how town-mollie plays. I won't go into details.
  
• Counter argument:
  mollie can be this stupid sometimes and focus on things that might not make much sense (hence my "when does mollie ever make sense" to Desperado). But I think she is way past the acceptable limit.

Spoiler: Why Nacho might be scum

• Meta. It's the first time I see him not being the town-leader. Or actually, I have seen him not being the town-leader again - he was scum.
  
• Extreme WKing on Mala. He knows I can read Mala, and he has seen me shouting to people to lynch her only for Mala to go on to win the game because people, including him, didn't listen. He should at least doubt his townread on her a little. Instead he is being stubborn and tries everything he can to discredit my read on her - claiming I am tunneling, misrepping my case to a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense, etc. I really believe town-Nacho would consider the possibility I am right, however small that might be in his mind.
  
• He is not scumhunting. He is not pushing anyone. I've never seen Nacho being this passive and pushing completely noone. He has been voting shos after sheeping Matt, and has not cared to try and actually read shos. He has not tried to interact with shos to see how shos might be town. He does not have other suspects! Nacho should have tons of things to say and actual suspects at this point in the game. Nothing. And again, even if he's voting shos, he is not actually pushing for him to be lynched. Which he always does with his suspects.
  
  Note: As I said, I don't think he is scum with Mala, but he could be scum with the other two. So I think that if I am somehow wrong about Mala, Nacho replacing her in the scumteam still makes sense.

Spoiler: Other people who could be scum but don't really think so

-shos: I think his posting has greatly improved lately, while his earlier play was just bad town play. Still, there's always the possibility he managed to improve his otherwise obvious scumplay from earlier and turn it into something that can make sense as town.
-penguin: More or less, same as shos. She seemed very scummy in the beginning, especially considering her meta, but her later posts starting with that wall are much better and could mean that she just had a slow start.
-havingfitz: Only due to the fact that we have not seen much content from that slot, so everything is possible. Arc was kinda town considering her meta though, so I don't think so.
-Mirari: I liked penguin's read on her. I did not like her "Mala is voting her, wagon is so good", nor did I like her "You are all crazy, Mala is town", especially considering she is still a newbie with 2? completed games. She does not appear to consider the fact Mala could be scum at all. And I don't like her sticky read on penguin either. Still, her general tone, especially early, gave me town vibes, so I can't say I can be sure about anything here.

Spoiler: The rest of the players are town

-Whiskers: I very much like the way he is scrutinizing people. I also like how he does not get swayed by whatever says but questions everything and tries to prove how it might not make sense. For example, shos stated that the penguin wall was hard to attack - he proved that point wrong. Or, while he kind of came to an understanding of why I found Mala scummy, he still called me out on the things he thought didn't make sense. Not to mention his paranoia of my playstyle and even his attempts of trying to make me play less for myself and more for the town, which are always positive points for a player who meets me for the first time. Very very town, will never lynch.
-Grimgroove: I like his reads, which align very much with mine, as well as the various theories he comes up with. I also liked the way he reacted when I semi-faked a tunnel on him early on. It reminded me of the town-Grimgroove I had actually tunneled on in another game.
-ooba: I liked him since the beginning, and he has not given me any reason to change that. I like his content, and while I might disagree with some of his reads, they don't appear fake or opportunistic.
-Desperado: He made me paranoid for a while because of his sheeping, but that stopped mattering much when I saw his aggressive push on mollie, which I very much liked. Then I was even more happy in my townread on him when he continued scumreading Mala despite my stating that she is town.

And to reiterate, the correct lynch among those 3(4?) most scummy players for me is Mala. She is the most scummy, and regardless, her lynch will be a great information source. There are at least 3 people who claim that they are strongly townreading her and at least 4 people who claim they are strongly scumreading her. While this diversity can be found on other players (penguin, for example), the reads are nowhere as strong.

[Wisdom]

and the fact you discounted a LOT of completely protown shit I was doing earlier

Scum can do protown shit too, I don't see your point. But your whining because I don't consider the protown points means you care about your appearence, so more pro-scum points for you.

[Wisdom]

I've played with a scum neighborizer before, who actually neighborized me on N1. Can easily be scum.

[Wisdom]

Pedit: Because Shos is scum, Wisdom is town, Mala is town, and a neighborizer won't be roleblocked or nightkilled but lends credence to my beliefs?

wtf is this bullshit?

There was no reason for you to claim unless you are scum and you want to confuse us. That's all there is to it.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, yeah, when Wisdom catches scum, let's remind everyone how he's always tunneling to discredit his reads. Good luck with that.

[Wisdom]

I've played with a scum neighborizer before, who actually neighborized me on N1. Can easily be scum.

Scum certainly CAN be neighborizers. Scum have no reason to claim neighborizer day one and pigeonhole themselves to HAVE to then neighborize.

"have to"?
As if neighborizing is something bad. Scum can manipulate someone much more easily in a neighborhood.
Solely the reason you claim out of nowhere and then try to justify how scum wouldn't claim screams caught scum.

[Wisdom]

blah blah tunneling blah blah

caught scum is caught

Now let's fucking lynch Mala and Matt back to back

[Wisdom]

Why the fuck is everyone claiming?

[Wisdom]

And how would Matt neighborize anyone? Isn't the game daystart?

[Wisdom]

And wow whiskers. Matt says some bullshit about scum piggybacking me, suddenly everyone is scum piggybacking me. Way to prove me wrong on how you're not swayed by people's bullshit.

[Wisdom]

& fucking ignore mollie

This on it's own proves that your refutation is a load of bullshit. And why I should never bother making cases.

[Wisdom]

Maybe they're "copying" me cuz I'm fucking right. Unlike you and nacho and whoever who are on a mission to prove how every word I post is wrong and tunneling.

[Wisdom]

No, you're telling me that you don't understand why she is scum. Which is okay, because no matter how hard I try to explain, you can't see with my eyes. And that's why I don't bother with cases.

[Wisdom]

I never said she is scum because Im tunneling on her, wtf is that?

[Wisdom]

This is explaining why her overreaction is fake. Don't take it out of context.

[Wisdom]

@Whiskers
Say you are Mala. We have had around 8 games together, in 2 of which I tunneled on you hard. And in both of them you were scum.
Now you come in this game, and I vote you, giving a "because you are scum" as my reason. You overreact and start spamming about how I am not always right and how you want to blacklist me and how you might replace out and stuff.

Does it make any sense when the only two times I've tunneled on you were when you actually were scum?

That's where the "She was scum in the games I tunneled on her" is relevant. If she was town in one of the games I had tunneled on her, then this reaction would be a little more believable. But that's not the case. Do you understand now?

[Wisdom]

Hi Matt.
Since you missed it the first time:

But if you guys are going to go "well, I'm going to sit here and sheep player x who has barely a case other than 'umg a fluffy ISO'" I'll sit here and replace out. I hate tunnelers they piss me off. I hate getting voted without a decent case on me that I can dispute. I can't dispute gut, I can't dispute a fluffy ISO and face it there's a ton of players here who has them yet he's going after me.

This is scum-Mala from a different game saying that she will replace out if the tunnelers continue tunneling.
Do you wish to continue supporting that it's a town tell?

[Wisdom]

None of the gods were related to neighbourhoods yet we have two neighborizers. I don't think he is lying.
I do think he is a scum neighborizer.

[Wisdom]

mhm, that's how I think it is.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, Mala is a better lynch than Matt, no doubt about that.

[Wisdom]

penguin, would you switch to Mala if there's no support for Mirari (which most likely there isn't)?

[Wisdom]

What do you think about mass flavor claiming

I'm against any kind of claiming so early, but apparently you guys are doing it anyway.

[Wisdom]

The downside to flavor claim now is...?

Scum might get ideas as to who might have what power?

[Wisdom]

The downside to flavor claim now is...?

Scum might get ideas as to who might have what power?

OK.

What do you think my power is?

Are you trying to help scum? I'm obviously not going to answer this.

[Wisdom]

You cannot predict how smart scum are. Why give them any help at all?

[Wisdom]

The Major gods are twelve, plus Hades who is not in the twelve because of him not living on Olympus. I don't think Gods other than those thirteen are used, so no fakeclaims are possible.

[Wisdom]

Who entertained that?

[Wisdom]

Umm.
Whiskers is the second Neighborizer.

[Wisdom]

The reasoning Matt used for claiming, if I understood correctly, is

-I claim Neighborizer.
-It makes no sense for me to claim that as scum, therefore I am conftown now.
-I don't want Mala lynched. I want shos lynched.
-Since I am now conftown, you guys should listen to me and lynch shos instead of Mala.

...which is bullshit.

[Wisdom]

Mirari I don't understand your penguin tunnel.

[Wisdom]

I think they are probably both town.

Why?
Why isn't one town and one scum more likely?

[Wisdom]

Mirari I don't understand your penguin tunnel.

On that note;

penguin is online, posting. Why aren't you trying to interact with her?

[Wisdom]

@1530
I didn't want to butt in before so that penguin answers, but no, it's not the same thing at all. Grim was questioning mollie on why she is not scumhunting, why she is not expressing reads, hence his "what's your read on groovey kid?" <- he is using mollie's nickname for him, as if to say, "you should be saying "groovey kid is town/groovey kid is scum but you aren't." Your "whats your read on me" in contrast came out of nowhere and was not accompanying any suspicion on mollie. Nor did you follow up with another question to her.

They are completely different, like your alignment and Grimgroove's.

[Wisdom]

You'll need to clarify that statement. Is it a tunnel because I don't want to lynch one of the neighborizers today? Why was my Shos suspicion not a tunnel? I have just started truly pushing penguin. I don't think that counts as a tunnel.

You just posted a naked "we need to lynch penguin". Without reasoning, without any attempts to interact with her. I call that a tunnel.

How are the neighborizers relevant? Mala has not claimed neighborizer.

But do tell me why you would prefer to lynch a stronger power role than a neighborizer.

Also answer my questions. Why do you think that both neighborizers are likely to be town? And why are you not interacting with penguin?

[Wisdom]

Then why did you ask the question if not because you were suspicious?

[Wisdom]

Matt's doesn't make sense as scum motive unless to distract from Mala lynch which I don't think is a scum lynch. Plus, Matt has enough clout not to need to claim.

Explain to me how Matt's claim makes sense as town.

[Wisdom]

ok I'm wrong on someone, possibly on mollie. Mirari is scum.