Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

Why not give your thoughts?

I don't think they'd be super helpful. At any rate, you can probably tell I'm not all about it since I didn't jump on the wagon.

VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

I think their both town, froggy dude pushing him to get reactions out of others. And it worked, which makes me suspect Lil Uzi, Hawk, and Gerryoak.

I'll keep my vote on Uzi.

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

[ChaosOmega]

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

Interesting. Curious to see frogger's take on it.

In post 55, Fro99er wrote:
In post 54, ChaosOmega wrote:
VOTE: WhemeStar

Wheme, what are your thoughts on Sheep and the quick L-2 wagon on him?

Why not give your thoughts?

I don't think they'd be super helpful. At any rate, you can probably tell I'm not all about it since I didn't jump on the wagon.

Okay So.. If its not super helpful please declare one of the following 3 choices

• I don't think they slipped
• I think they slipped or are other wise playing to a red win con
• I can't decide if they are red or not and wish to let it play out.
• I think its TvT

Combo of 1 and 3. The slip that people are pushing is dumb, and I have no strong feelings on the Sheep slot.

---

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

[ChaosOmega]

fro99er:

You are curious to see my own take on my own push?

I think sheep is scum. I see zero reason for sheep to come in and make a jump in logic like that just to say something like "is it going to be difficult to work with you" when I got absolutely zero of that from lowell's post.

It was purely a jump in logic to throw shade.

Just wanted a response from you so I could engage with WhemeStar more. I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right. Scroll down this post to see a continuation of this thought!

As for the slip, I can see what gerry is talking about. I try to find those kinds of slips EVERY game, and Chaos I know you do at least at times as you did in MAFICEPTION with Pepto (which i then seized on and tied Titus to that slip so we for sure had two scum nailed down from it). I find slip resistance (as Titus did) more scummy than pointing out a slip, in general, although it's not a hard and fast tell.

Here's Chaos pointing out a slip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7396328

"Like he knows Mario is town"

That's what a I get from reading Sheeps post is that it looks "like he knows Gerry is town"

Yes, I look for slips, and yes, I get the jist of why people think this about Sheep. It just doesn't read that way to me. The Pepto one you're referring to from Mafiaception was blatant. He voted a big wagon stressing a bunch of caution, got called on his weakness, and responded he doesn't want a mislynch. Definition of a slip. The Sheep slip is just parsing something a certain way. I read it as "Oh, you're confirmed town? Well, your highness, you should place a vote so the rest of the town can follow you." It's not similar to the Pepto one at all to me, at least.

------

WhemeStar:

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

------

Hawk:

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy. Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?

[ChaosOmega]

fro99er:

You are curious to see my own take on my own push?

I think sheep is scum. I see zero reason for sheep to come in and make a jump in logic like that just to say something like "is it going to be difficult to work with you" when I got absolutely zero of that from lowell's post.

It was purely a jump in logic to throw shade.

Just wanted a response from you so I could engage with WhemeStar more. I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right. Scroll down this post to see a continuation of this thought!

As for the slip, I can see what gerry is talking about. I try to find those kinds of slips EVERY game, and Chaos I know you do at least at times as you did in MAFICEPTION with Pepto (which i then seized on and tied Titus to that slip so we for sure had two scum nailed down from it). I find slip resistance (as Titus did) more scummy than pointing out a slip, in general, although it's not a hard and fast tell.

Here's Chaos pointing out a slip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7396328

"Like he knows Mario is town"

That's what a I get from reading Sheeps post is that it looks "like he knows Gerry is town"

Yes, I look for slips, and yes, I get the jist of why people think this about Sheep. It just doesn't read that way to me. The Pepto one you're referring to from Mafiaception was blatant. He voted a big wagon stressing a bunch of caution, got called on his weakness, and responded he doesn't want a mislynch. Definition of a slip. The Sheep slip is just parsing something a certain way. I read it as "Oh, you're confirmed town? Well, your highness, you should place a vote so the rest of the town can follow you." It's not similar to the Pepto one at all to me, at least.

------

WhemeStar:

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

------

Hawk:

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy. Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?

this post reads very scripted/forced to me, and the only time he goes into a little bit of a deeper analysis is when he's comparing something to a past game, which is something that's easy to talk about when you're scum because it's something you believe in and can give your true thoughts on. Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too, because it's a simple thing to look for/push on.

Scummiest post of the game thus far to me

So this post of mine looks scripted according to you, because my questions seem to only be looking for contradictions and unexplained progressions. I think your hangup on this is really dumb, but that's more of a theory squabble, and I don't feel like getting into that. Let's look at part of my post here and one of your posts later:

WhemeStar:

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

At a glance, this would make you seem like a giant fucking hypocrite. Are you scum, bad at mafia, or is there something I'm missing here?

[ChaosOmega]

Regardless of me yelling at Terata, I do want this answered, WhemeStar. Why is frog town for pushing a weak case when you scumread other people for jumping on the wagon?

[ChaosOmega]

Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?

So you get that your pressure on Sheep was the big thing happening, and want to ask me why I chose that particular thing? K. I targeted Wheme with that questioning because they had made multiple posts during the wagon buildup that were fluff and unrelated to it; I wanted them to take a stand on an issue and see if their lack of mentioning the wagon was scum hoping to ignore it for a while and see where it goes. I know I'm town, I'm not trying to scumhunt myself, so yeah, Wheme's thoughts on it are much more interesting to me.

Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.

Derail, not disrail. Also, I'm not derailing shit by saying I'm lukewarm to the wagon. "Oh, this player that said two things all game said he doesn't like this wagon and gives no reasoning, we better back off." Also, you want to paint derailing the Sheep wagon here as bad. Do you know that Sheep is scum? Or is it that derailing a wagon by putting work into it is good, but not putting in work means it's scummy? Please clarify the issue here.

In 59, chaos continues

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.

It does jive, I agree. But I knew that his foundation was flawed (i.e., you making your push seem stronger than it is to get reactions), so I ask a follow-up, or as you like to call it, being manipulative.

But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).

(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)

In 282 Chaos says

I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.

He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same post

So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.

Yes, I knew your push was genuine. Without this step, I could have asked Wheme "Hey, frogger's push is genuine, so now what do you think", and he could justifiably go "How the fuck do you know what frogger's push is supposed to be?" With you clarifying, I now have evidence of it. Didn't think I'd have to explain that, but here we are.

I don't know why you're painting my question here to Wheme as a dichotomy. Is it to make me look worse? Because I asked, given this information he didn't have before, if his read has changed at all. There's a range of options, and I wanted to see how he would re-evaluate his read given one of his premises was wrong. You made plenty of other posts after the early push on Sheep, it's not as if he has to scumread you if his position changes here. I was more looking for any sort of progression from Wheme's earlier reads, since he looks like he established some early and is fitting his play around those early reads to stay consistent and isn't actually scumhunting.

And why do you keep bringing up the fucking Sheep wagon? He is not in my top 3 scumreads currently, and I'm not interested in pursuing it. So why the fuck would I do any work around the wagon?

Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.

I'm expecting everyone to? Did I fucking ask everyone? Also, I asked what Wheme thought of the wagon. You know what he could have answered? I'll give you a hint, he could have said the same thing as me. So this point is total fucking nonsense.

There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.

I dismissed it because I think the slip is garbage. Think whatever you like about it, but I personally think it's an absolutely lousy point. It's semantics and parsing.

The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:

Chaos:

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Terata:

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).

Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)

IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.

You're right, this does sound really fucking dumb. I asked if it changed his read. It's not manipulative, it's not me fucking cornering him, he established a townread on you partially based on something that was later proven to be false. I want to know with that new information, if anything changed. I'm sorry I didn't fucking say please or give him the benefit of the doubt or use the fucking words you would prefer. I asked if it changed.

Hawk:

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy.

Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?

Actually maybe not on the chaos hawk thing. Found this (bolded mine). MORE manipulation by Chaos.

This is not manipulation, holy shit.

Let's have a chat here for a sec, fro99er. Let's assume you're town. If you are, and with this playerlist, you become the town leader by default. Still assuming you're town, scum will want to keep out of your way. Speaking of this point, a quote:

No. I'm not talking about WK

Ok, ill try not to ask anymore questions since you in a previous post said you don't like answering them.

The appeasement here is pathetic. They're not trying to suss you out, they're trying to stay out of your way. Dash of WIFOM for you, if I'm scum here with you being town, I do not bother to keep engaging people about their town read of you. Because in a certain light, it might seem like I'm throwing shit on you. I'm trying to see who is scared of you vs. who is trying to read you. I would not mention you much if at all, and I would kill you N1.

You're one of the very few people in this playerlist whom I respect the play of, I'm trying to level with you here. You think my tone this game is different, look at how I cased Poro in Mafiaception. If I'm confident in a push, I do not give benefit of the doubt, and I don't word things just the way you prefer. And I'm not fucking manipulating players, I'm asking them questions.

[ChaosOmega]

Do you think that you're bad town, Terata?

[ChaosOmega]

Yes, I think you're scum, for the record.

[ChaosOmega]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

[ChaosOmega]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

Not really. My point is that your question seems completely taken part-and-parcel from my question. So why is it scummy if I ask it but not scummy if you ask the same question?

[ChaosOmega]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

Not really. My point is that your question seems completely taken part-and-parcel from my question. So why is it scummy if I ask it but not scummy if you ask the same question?

i don't think the question is scummy by itself. Does that answer the question?

Yes, but then there's another question. Here's your summary of my 282 where I asked that question:

this post reads very scripted/forced to me, and the only time he goes into a little bit of a deeper analysis is when he's comparing something to a past game, which is something that's easy to talk about when you're scum because it's something you believe in and can give your true thoughts on. Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too, because it's a simple thing to look for/push on.

Scummiest post of the game thus far to me

So I was focusing on your criticism that the questions focused on contradictions and unexplained progressions, but that is not by itself enough to make it scummy. That's fair. So I guess the tone here is the clincher. Can you explain how my tone in 282 seems to be scripted or forced, and how when you asked seemingly the same question in 311, your tone was more natural?

[ChaosOmega]

CO -- thanks for the reply. Lots of good stuff in there I'm trying to parse, because it's left me kind of mixed. If you are town, us working together with AJ, who I think is town, should almost guarantee a town win.

1) Do you think I'm scum? Simple yes/no and why or why not.

2) The dash of WIFOM part I absolutely thought about after I posted my wall. You probably would stay away from me if you are scum. But yeah, WIFOM.

UNVOTE:

I think AJ is town as well.

1) Probably not. Your push on Sheep reads as genuine, at least in terms of frustration and how you're pushing him. Your jump onto me didn't read like you hopping on the wagon to push a mislynch, your earlier posts had raised some issues with me, it read as more of a continuation than opportunism.

2) Yeah, it is, that's why I had the disclaimer, lol. I like staying in the background as scum, since I tend not to post much regardless of alignment.

------

Now, let's talk about why WhemeStar is obvious scum that needs to be dead like now.

In my wall response to frogger, I mentioned WhemeStar's 150, and how it read as blatant appeasement and not trying to gamesolve at all. The whole frogger-WhemeStar convo from 144 to 151 is good to look at. frogger expresses suspicion of Wheme if Sheep flips town, and Wheme seems worried about it in response, asking why in 145 and then nervously trying to figure out what frogger is scumreading him for in 148, and then the pathetic placation in 150. If Wheme was town, why the fuck would he just roll over like that and try to appease frogger as opposed to confronting him? It's like he knows he's guilty, and is just trying to be nice and fade into the background. This exchange is part of the reason I'm not sold on Sheep-scum, since I'm assuming Wheme is scum and his reaction would not have been like that if Sheep was his partner; he would just shut up and take the town-cred on a Sheep lynch.

Wheme was townreading Sheep for most of this game from the beginning (56, 307, 332, etc.). After a reread in 365, he posts in 458 that Sheep is possible scum:

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on. After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

Here's what you said earlier in 332 about them:

I feel this game is just sheep/froggy arguing with each other, and I think their both town. I like the way sheepy defended himself and how froggy pushed him. They are still both town reads for me.

I'm not just giving you shit here for your reads changing, because they should. But this change doesn't read natural at all. In 332, your town read on Sheep is explicitly from how he is defending himself, and now in 458, his defense is why he is scummy. It's a complete 180 with no progression.

Let's talk about your readlist in 507:

Froggy
Naomi
Tereta - Like his posts and his pushes on me and others
AJ - like how he pushes some people like Tereta is, asked questions to get discussion.

EC - FFS get an avatar pls, I like how he pushed me for not explaining in detail with Hawk.
Gerry - Doesn't post much, but I don't think that scum would be so obvious
Lil Uzi - Posts don't contain much but every once in a while he posts something good, like post #287
Hawk - I don't really see where he fell off, can someone help explain that too me?
Chaos - I agree with others saying he tried to derail Sheep's wagon
Penguin - Not much to say with him only having 6 posts.

Sheep- Don't really like how his response to frog was mostey questions, and then called out frog for being scum by not answering said questions.
Lowell - HIs post counteracts itself when he said that he likes AJ because he is a lurker but when he posts his reads are spot on, but AJ called him scum earlier.

- Why is Gerry so much higher than Penguin here? Reasoning for each would seem to indicate they'd be next to each other.
- Look at how he townreads Tereta and EC for pushing him. He doesn't challenge them for being wrong, it's like how he tried to resolve the same issue with frogger, say their play is pro-town and hope they leave him alone.
- So Lowell is supposedly his biggest scumread, yet the reasoning for it is so lame. It's nothing but a slip that other people had talked about prior.

Also, Terata's case in 460 is good and I agree with all of it. Don't wanna rehash it, but it's part of why WhemeStar needs to be dead.

Also also, his reaction to frogger's vote/reasoning:

VOTE: Wheme

sheeping Terata's case. It's basically what I was about to say wrt Wheme not having any unique reads but painting them as his own thoughts.

I actually think Wheme is my strongest scumread of the game now, and lord knows I've been all over the place.

Im not trying to paint them as my own thoughts, they haven't. Sorry if it seems that way.

Ill try to do this piece by piece, too try and show that I'm trying my best to help out town. Sorry if you prefer me to give my opinions in one big post though.

So your opinions aren't your own thoughts?

[ChaosOmega]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

You do know what WIFOM means, right?

Not unvoting. I believe the odd-night rolestopper part of the claim, just not the town part.

[ChaosOmega]

Sheep, what are your thoughts on the Wheme wagon and his read progression on your slot from town to scum?

[ChaosOmega]

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

Hawk's wall on you, combined with his post on Wheme, looks like an attempt to derail the Wheme lynch and drag attention back to you. The case reads as recycled material and having an agenda. He's my top scumread not named WhemeStar.

[ChaosOmega]

@Chaos - you called him out for a read change with about 100 posts inbetween. I haven't gone back and looked, but I'm pretty sure Frog and I wall war-ed it up during those 100 posts in some level. I would also note that at some point in the game Frog claimed I lacked logic and about 2 players sheeped him off that call (even though later Frog admitted he'd "misunderstood" me in his case). While we're at it, people are still acting like his original case had merit, without comment on how even Frog shifted his case.

So, to be short, I think there was a silly amount of negativity and noise about the case, and I think multiple players (town and scum) kind of hopped on it/weren't reading and just going for the possible mislynch/some combination thereof. So a read change hardly seems shocking to me at that stage.

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

His ISO #8, #9, #11, he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him

(for reference, those ISO numbers refer to post 107, 110, and 158)

Sheep, now knowing that the reason for Wheme's 180 are all within the first 7 pages, after which Wheme had previously called your slot town multiple times (307, 329, 332), does that change your thoughts on his flip on your slot?

Wheme, you said, "he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him". I definitely see pro-town motive in that summary. This is my big problem with all of this. It looks like you're singing along with the melody, but you don't understand the lyrics. Post 110 that you cited has fucking nothing at all to do with Sheep's push on frogger. You said before that your opinions this game are thoughts of others jumbled into what you like. Was your early town read on Sheep gotten in that way?

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Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

[ChaosOmega]

frogger, why are you voting EC? It looks like you sheeped Lowell, but I'd be inclined to agree with EC in 642 that Lowell's case is pretty awful. What do you see there?

[ChaosOmega]

Lol, I guess I should have read up 10 posts. Interested to see it.

[ChaosOmega]

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

I have a reason and I've saved it to a draft so that I can reply later.

I know you've moved off of EC, but I still want to see this.

------

Also, just a note that Wheme decided to say hi to a new player instead of responding to or even acknowledging my 641.

[ChaosOmega]

Open question to anyone that scumreads Wheme but doesn't want to lynch them because of the Rolestopper claim: Why? What benefit are you hoping to gain by giving them a night to work? Even if they are town, their power is neutered now because the scum know they have to play around a protection.

I don't nesscarily scumread Wheme but I can see the arguments for why he's scum. I'm more inclined to believe the claim than not. So Chaos from someone who isn't sold but isn't unwilling to lynch Wheme why should I vote Wheme here? Why is it better for me to go against my belief that Wheme is actually town PR and buy the case that he's scum fake claiming?

I mean, I guess I don't know why you're asking this. If you don't scumread him, then don't vote to lynch him? If you're curious as to why you should vote Wheme, peruse my ISO, it's not very long. I believe the claim from an ability standpoint, just not an alignment one.

[ChaosOmega]

Its more because of my role I think I'm more inclined to believe that Wheme being odd night rolestopper is a town role... But I could be wrong. I don't know all the possible roles and combinations universally so it's just spec on the setup.

Do not claim your role. Is your power odd-night?

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I do think Wheme being town is pretty incriminating for Chaos. And I cannot support Chaos' reaction to Wheme's claim

I didn't think I'd have to clarify this, but I've seen so far this game nuance is lost on you. I am a PR that doesn't really jive with a town rolestopper. With Hawk, Gerry, and me all claiming power of some sort, I'm more inclined to believe a rolestopper is scum. It's how I balanced a mini I ran a while back.

[ChaosOmega]

No.

[ChaosOmega]

Chaos -- don't out your role or anything. Just let us know if you can do something to sort Wheme tonight.

If it is, then wheme should target Chaos so he protects Chaos from a kill and Chaos can do his power thing to sort wheme.

If it's not, then I say we let the night play out and lynch in the non-claimed-PRs.

Does me answering yes to this question change your lynch pool? If so, in what ways?

[ChaosOmega]

Yes -- it means I am not lynching you or Wheme, and I'd even probably avoid a Lowell lynch because if you can sort wheme tonight then in some ways that helps sort hawk, so there's less need to lynch Lowell for information about if he and hawk are a team.In that case I'd lynch Alisae in a heartbeat.Are you answering yes?

Not lynching me or Wheme is no different from me answering no, where you said you would avoid claimed PR's.

The only tangible difference it seems like then is that Lowell is less likely for you and Alisae is more likely, but I don't see any way an Alisae lynch takes off. So on my end, there seems to be no reason to clarify? Let me know if there is something I missed.

[ChaosOmega]

Chaos -- don't out your role or anything. Just let us know if you can do something to sort Wheme tonight.

If it is, then wheme should target Chaos so he protects Chaos from a kill and Chaos can do his power thing to sort wheme.

If it's not, then I say we let the night play out and lynch in the non-claimed-PRs.

Does me answering yes to this question change your lynch pool? If so, in what ways?

I actually hate how you asked a question first as if it mattered how you answered to Town.

Or, I asked it to see if frogger was just rolefishing or if he had a legitimate reason for wanting the info.

[ChaosOmega]

I asked if he was odd-night. You want to know if I'm a vig or cop. You really don't see the difference here?

[ChaosOmega]

I asked for a modifier clarification, you want to narrow down the type of role I am. It's not the same, and for you to equate them to make me look like a hypocrite as a point against me is disingenuous as shit.

[ChaosOmega]

Remember how I said you weren't gonna swing a lynch on Alisae? I don't know how highly you think of me, but I'm not swinging a lynch on you, regardless of my feelings at the moment.

And yes, it was my idea to claim that I'm a PR that I don't think works with a town rolestopper; then, frogger wanted more info as to what I am.

[ChaosOmega]

Oh man, let's look at how frogger is gonna pivot from his earlier view that we shouldn't lynch in the PR's.

[ChaosOmega]

If this is your town game, then I gave you too much credit. Why would I stay on Wheme here if I'm scum? Why wouldn't I capitulate to your horseshit demand and try to swing a lynch on Alisae or Lowell?

[ChaosOmega]

All that pre-flip evidence is certainly valid and won't fall apart later on at all, good catch

[ChaosOmega]

I'm just saying it's garbage since I know I'm town, but please, keep cluttering up the game with pre-flip nonsense if you think that's helpful.

[ChaosOmega]

VOTE: Lowell

Neither are in my main scumreads, but if these are the only two options at this point, I guess I prefer Lowell.

[ChaosOmega]

Well I certainly look pretty terrible now. With the speed of that wagon, I think it's unlikely both of Sheep's partners bussed him. If that's true, there is scum in AJ, Fitz, ECM, me, and gerry.

VOTE: ECMitchell

[ChaosOmega]

@Chaos, i disagree. I think at least 1 could have bussed. especially if they saw him ending up as the lynch anyway.

I think there could be one busser. I find it extremely unlikely they both bussed. Assuming Lowell is town, they had an option to jump on an accepted wagon and not look bad.

[ChaosOmega]

Sorry for the long weekend, prod/replacement dodge, will make an actual post tonight when I'm home.

[ChaosOmega]

Sorry for the long weekend, prod/replacement dodge, will make an actual post tonight when I'm home.

looking forward to this

still want to know whether you got some kind of a result on wheme

I did not target Wheme.

I will full claim if people think it's best, but I do not have super useful results to claim.

Reading through the rest of D2 now.

[ChaosOmega]

I never claimed that I could prove Wheme's alignment. I said I thought my role seems incompatible with a town rolestopper. But it's not impossible.

I'm a tracker. My target last night was ECMitchell; they didn't go anywhere.

Some of Wheme's posts at the end of D1 made me second guess my scum read on the slot. I read through Sheep's ISO, and they mentioned every player in the game except for ECMitchell. Not even in passing, not as a part of a readslist, none. It's a giant scumtell to me when scum is lynched and someone isn't mentioned by them.

[ChaosOmega]

I feel really sick and don't feel like posting. I guess I made the wrong play targeting ECM instead of Wheme.

If you have any questions you want me to answer, post them, otherwise, I guess I'm not a terrible lynch today. We already got one scum, and I'm gonna be a distraction if I'm kept alive.

[ChaosOmega]

Question 1: Do you have any intention on playing this game?

You being a dick isn't helping, tbh.

You said I had a shitton to answer for. So what is it then? Or is your goal here just to be angry and not actually try to figure shit out?

[ChaosOmega]

I don't want to be lynched, but it seems like that's the road we're going down. I'm offering to answer anything you ask, this is me trying to work with you here.

[ChaosOmega]

I thought they were more scummy than you at the end of the day. Some of your more fatalistic posting made me reconsider your slot somewhat, and Sheep flipping scum was a surprise to me that made me reconsider my reads. frogger's point that he quoted again today was the main reason I looked at ECM. Sheep never interacted with the slot and ECM was trying to push the lynch away from Sheep.

[ChaosOmega]

Leaving for a few hours, will be back on tonight for a bit.

[ChaosOmega]

Ok the follow-up then:

What made you feel you are a counter role to Wheme?

If ECM didn't do anything, what's your take on the night kill? Who done it?

Counter is a strong word that I didn't use. My role and Wheme's role don't work well together if he's town. Whoever he targets becomes ascetic and makes me unable to track them. Assuming you're town as well, that is two investigative roles that a rolestopper can fuck with. Not to mention a third town PR that would have a decent chance of getting an investigative if they didn't die early. Actually, thinking about this, it seems really unlikely town would have multiple investigative roles and also a rolestopper. It's a lot of negative utility.

VOTE: WhemeStar

Unsure on the night kill. It could be ECM is a ninja (will freely admit this is fueled by conf bias because I think he is scum...although if he does flip ninja, I think that clears Wheme as town? No way scum would have a ninja and rolestopper). I don't really have any good theories on the NK, to be honest. It could be one of the two remaining members has a good foothold in the town and ECM sat home twiddling his thumbs while his partner made the kill. Or Wheme killed instead of using the rolestopper (probably should have targeted Wheme...will agree I made a misplay there).

[ChaosOmega]

How does this make any sense? You think your role doesn't go well with mine, so you decide not to track me if you think I'm scum? And then after not even checking me you still vote me because you still think our role don't work together???

I explained why I thought ECM was more scummy at the end of D1.

As for the vote on you, I've never seen a town have more than 5 PRs in a mini. With 3 of them being a tracker, another investigative (not for sure obviously, but I'm inclined to believe AJ based on his reaction to my claim and the fact that he had no reason to out any part of his role earlier), and a universal backup that will likely become an investigative given the number of claimed investigative roles and the limited number of town PRs in a mini, a majority of the town PR pool looks to be investigative. Our roles don't go well together, true, but it is possible that there's a town investigative combined with a town rolestopper, it's just negative utility. But with so much of town's power being investigative, a rolestopper doesn't make any sense for town.