Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[Titus]

Hi there. I might have stalked this game once I saw who the IC was.

Regardless of their alignment, you have a good IC here. I have a different perspective than most. My job as an SE is to supplement them teaching you how to play and show alternative playstyles.

[Titus]

There is one issue that I have to side with nancy on, and this is mostly directed at JaeReed and GuiltyLion.

There's nothing wrong with trying to break apart townreads, especially weak ones. If you stay quiet when people are gaining unnecessary trust, then what if one of them is mafia? You're just making it easier for them to stay hidden. Even if the people in question are town, what about the people townreading them? If you point out the flaws in their arguments, whether they're scumreading or townreading, you can force them to explain themselves and draw attention to possible fake reads.

I'm not saying that putting scumreads under scrutiny is less important, but it's a two-way road. I'm surprised that this is even a subject for debate.

Welcome, Titus.

This is something I want to read for context.

[Titus]

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

Not a particularly large fan of this.

Not following someone's reads and proceeding to ascribe town motivation is a little sketchy.

[Titus]

In general, I don't like unexplained TRs Sparkles. Yet, there are players who do that. Naked reads can be playstyle, crumbs, confidence or any number of things. Pressing to understand is ok, but don't press to demolish.

[Titus]

Good morning everyone! First game of mafia ever, though I used to play werewolf on a different forum like 5 years ago. Getting caught up now but let's start with a

vote toejam

because gross.

Mafia and werewolf are the same game, different flavor.

[Titus]

VOTE: EccentricLion

Gut

[Titus]

VOTE: EccentricLemon

My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

[Titus]

bowdown, that defeats the purpose of a naked vote.

[Titus]

Hey, GuiltyLion, you there?

[Titus]

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

[Titus]

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I'm probably butting in since you directed this at GL, but I totally missed this - where was the Freudian slip!?! I re-read your posts and can't find it!

I voted ElectricLion, aka ElectricLemon plus GuiltyLion.

[Titus]

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae.

I don't think this is the case.

Titus is usually the IC, so I think she's holding back a bit to not interfere with me since this is my first time playing as an IC. It's a weird shift from being an SE that I'm still getting a feel for, despite a lot of the time as an SE chiming in with theory when I've seen newbies struggling. I feel that Titus is trying to support me in that role, actually, which is probably why you get that feeling.

If not, could you point out where you think Titus has been hiding behind me in a game sense?

Partially, but I am also naked voting to see if I can trigger more of the funny speech patterns from Lemon.

[Titus]

So what's next here? Does PR cc now? Wait until tomorrow? Something else?

A PR only claims if one shot bp cannot exist within their framework.

[Titus]

Bowdown, join me?

[Titus]

Lemon

[Titus]

Why you TR GL? Nullread me?

I has sads.

[Titus]

I felt the same way regarding GL avoiding me. My real life is slammed, so I am going to highlight what I am seeing in Lemon.

[Titus]

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

[Titus]

I never scumread Titus, I voted her to get a reaction because I was having a tough time discerning her alignment. Unfortunately, it didn't work out for two reasons.

a) Jae defended her before she defended herself, which is odd. This is where I am getting the vibe that Jae is protecting Titus.

b) Titus never defended herself.

I don't feel the need to defend myself. I'm more focused on catching scum.

[Titus]

Titus:

Did you learn anything either from your initial naked vote, or from me joining you on Lemon a couple pages ago?

Has your read if GL changed? I'm still townreading him.

Yes. It has taught me that my scumreads are likely correct given wagon reactions.

My largest wtf though is GL's most recent posting on that.

[Titus]

also Titus if you're going to make this point, I'd like you to directly address EL's response to me in

89

82 and Agent Sparkles in 140. Those posts read genuine to me.

sorry, this should have been 82, not 89

No. EL seems awfully obsessed with talking about you and busses there.

mixing up post numbers left and right

[Titus]

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

As for you JaeReed, awkward =/= town. Many caught scum look for reasons to attack a read. That's what she was doing by saying we're too far along for gut. Her ISO isn't focused on determining alignment of anyone. There's a litter of ADD scattershot pushes.

[Titus]

Right, and those votes earlier were much more for pressure (e.g. Titus's naked vote). Votes now on Lemon are votes to lynch.

I do not vote "for pressure" as a rule. My votes are to kill or in rare instances as a warning to change behavior.

[Titus]

Partially, but I am also naked voting to see if I can trigger more of the funny speech patterns from Lemon.

If you want more funny speech patterns then why aren't you trying to actively engage with them?

@Titus I don't believe you answered me on this.

I am engaging them, just not in a direct way.

[Titus]

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

I have time for one really quick post

Titus: We're way past that. Last time that was mentioned was #82, and we're in the 300s now. Just seems a bit weird that you're pushing something that I dropped before the game gained momentum. Is there really nothing else that tells you that I could be scum?

nancy: I'd like you to please explain why your vote on me was so definite when you said at the beginning of your post that you were ambiguous about me.

You all already voted me up right at the beginning of the game, unvoted, and then started voting me up again. Just pointing that out.

There is no past. Just now. Time possibly determines revelance, but not whether I let things go.

Your posts are riddled with such awkward language that suggests scum and on D1 in a small game, word choice is the best evidence.

[Titus]

Titus are your RL issues slowing you down still a thing?

Yes but not as severely as they used to. When business picks up, I post less.

[Titus]

Hypothetical being me and EL as scum partners.
Why would I question your townread on EL rather than just agree in much the same manner that GL did?

Because you're better scum than GL, or because GL isn't scum. Your subsequent content was therefore preempting a possible scumread. This makes sense if you are partners because you know her to be scum and know how she has messed up.

Didn't Revan say that he was reading Titus strongly as scum just to elicit a reaction? Everything else about that aside, that's lying and I've heard that if there's a #1 rule as Town it's don't lie.

Sorry I can't reply more properly than this on my fone.

Voting for reactions is not considered a lie.

[Titus]

Not lynching someone if theyre town it will hurt town is terrible logic.

No it isn't unless they dismiss valid reasons why the slot is scum.

Utility is and always will be a tiebreaker.

Let's lynch Lemon.

LLL for the win.

[Titus]

Bowdown, stop being overly protective of GL.

Revan's vote makes sense as a strategic one. It's more cause for concern if Revan didn't vote his counter.

@Nancy, ElectricLemon can be coached pregame.

[Titus]

It's more cause for concern if Revan didn't vote his counter.

If Revan didn't vote his counter there it would have probably had me whiteknight him for lack of opportunism, because I hardly ever see that flip red.

Then you have been in some wierd as fuck games.

[Titus]

First of all, I certainly will protect my TR on GL by saying I don't want to vote there.

Three days before lunch, Revan has two votes on him.

I vote Lemon, putting her to 3.

Revan votes previously-TRed Lemon and when pushed claims it was a self save. How in the world is that a reasonable place to self-save onto another one of your town reads?

Walk me through Town-Revan's thought process here and why he acts how he did. He sees me vote Lemon putting her at L-2. He has a town read on Lemon and knows that Lemon is a lynch candidate for most of the village. He sees his two biggest scumreads (I think) Jae and GL voting him.

I think Town-Revan tries to get one of his scumread lynched. Tries to actually put together a decent argument on either of them or point something out that others haven't seen. Both Jae and GL are read fairly mixed at this point in time, it might not be a futile effort and I might be able to get some traction on a lynch on my scumreads in the three friggin days remaining until lynch.

I don't see how town-Revan decides to instead push one of his townreads to L-1, claim it was a self-save when he has two votes on him, not try to get one of his scumreads lynched at the time, and then now that he is at L-1 say that now there is time to run someone else up. When he wasn't under pressure and voted his town read Lemon, there was no push to run Jae/GL/anyone else up - he was content to just self-save onto lemon.

It doesn't make sense. Revan is scum.

Two days until deadlijne.
It's the counter.
He doesn't townread EL.

I am willing to lynch EL or GL.

[Titus]

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

Why doesn't it to you?

Oh wait, you're not likely town

[Titus]

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

[Titus]

It's more cause for concern if Revan didn't vote his counter.

If Revan didn't vote his counter there it would have probably had me whiteknight him for lack of opportunism, because I hardly ever see that flip red.

Then you have been in some wierd as fuck games.

Not really? It's quite simple.

Anyone can vote their counter in order to save themselves.
Town are more likely to vote away from their counter if they strongly believe scum is elsewhere, because their goal isn't to save themselves, it's to find scum.

Some people are just survivalistic no matter their alignment, so it's not like Revan voting his counter is inherently scummy, it's just not townie. Where it would have been more townie to try to push an actual scumread.

In a short deadline, eventually it becomes I know I am town, so a I will vote the other guy.

With less than 2 days, a large scumread player isn't getting a wagon going.

[Titus]

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

[Titus]

My pc died. This game has priority

[Titus]

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

So what you're saying, paraphrased, is: "It's more likely than not that EL and GL are scumbuddies because EL said she didn't want to throw GL under the bus"? Am I parsing that right?

Now can you tell me why that's not an extremely contrived, nitpicky reach of an argument? An argument which is easily defeated by the alternate explanation which I already presented in 350:

she used a word without knowing the context/meaning on MafiaScum

You're assuming:
a) EL has knowledge of what it means to "bus" someone, despite this being her first game on mafiascum
b) EL and I are partners and both scum
c) EL accidentally slipped point b) by using the terminology "bus" in the context of a) in post 82.

This is a scumcase. It's fake, illogical reasoning. They're all huge assumptions independently, and being used together in a way that no townie would push with genuine intentions. If we're flash wagoning anyone today, it's Titus.

Scared much? How cute.

A townie wouldn't know bussed if first game. If she's coached by someone, done. Either you're scum or she's buddying you imo.

[Titus]

El, you should claim given deadline.

Nancy, I am stuck phone posting atm. PC issues.

[Titus]

Not voting Nancy.

Taking note of how easy it is to derail EL without a claim.

[Titus]

Nine hours left to vote EL.

[Titus]

I probably shouldn't leave out EL from the opportunist list, since her vote was essentially a self-save, even though I was never going to hammer her (she didn't know this, of course, so I can't blame her).

It's better to have a lynch on D1 than to reach a deadline no lynch.

The statistics for town wins on a no lynch D1 are horrendous iirc.

Agreed, so you can vote EL scum and we are both happy.

Any reason why you derailed it at the last second?

[Titus]

Did you miss the scumslip?

No. There was not one.

Did you miss EL's tonal indicators?

[Titus]

VC please

[Titus]

Time from now.

I'd bet my game life on Nancy being town ftr.

[Titus]

Welp.

[Titus]

I'm actually still not entirely sure whether that was when it happened. Roleswapping is really weird here because A) you first have to successfully identify the PR without outing them, and B) said PR has to recognize what you're trying to do and townread you enough or be confident enough in their skills to 1v1 you should it come to lylo to "conftown" you.
That instance was actually the first time I'd successfully seen it happen, though Titus attempted it once (I think? At least my understanding of the attempt) the other way around in this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7970596

I did it in Open 661.

A solid townread was crumbing a CC against a newb scum who already claimed my role. I told him to go ahead.

[Titus]

Nancy's comment was town PR hunting, not a scumslip.

[Titus]

VOTE: ELemon

Now, let's do this today.

[Titus]

The townbloc I have right now is {Myself, Bowdown, Tojam}. If we carry this into LYLO we win.

Umm yeah, I think the team is EL and GL but I ain't trusting you that much.

[Titus]

By the way, this nk does mean that scum has a roleblocker and that I am the last PR.

Yes, from your perspective. Technically, you still mathmatically could be scum. I have zero interest in lynching you though.

[Titus]

Titus, was Jae clearly jailkeeper yesterday after the twilight posts w/Nancy?

I didn't look at it that closely and I am terrible with crumbs.

[Titus]

GL, I can comment on a vote pattern for review later.

You on the other hand are trying to paint everything I do as scummy. That's the narrative sell.

I did not see a slip. I still do not. You, being a large veteran, know most so called slips are not actually slips.

[Titus]

Learned nothing from Titus, thanks :p

I ask because I was surprised to see Jae flip JK - and thinking about the NK on one hand if expect more experienced players to be more likely to pick up on that, but on the other hand Jae wasn't a surprising kill becausr they were leading the village.

That's essentially where I am at. I know enough to know my own strengths and weaknesses. Crumbing isn't that. Overall, it's a dangerous game trying to send a message to only town players. When I am an IC, I strongly suggest limiting crumbs to cop results and that is it.

I am at EL/GL GL/Revan or EL/Revan, yet GL is correct that town essentially became unhinged at EoD yesterday. Assuming EL scum, where do you think the wheels came off?

[Titus]

Oh poor me defense never goes well EL.

[Titus]

@EL: A little over-defensive but I'll consider it newbiness for now.

@AS: 2 weeks should be long enough to decide on a vote.

VOTE: Titus

Titus is at L-1, lolhammers are a scumclaim if she flips town.

I am just beyond annoyed with you. 661 now this.

Stop saving scum and murdering town.

[Titus]

You're just as town as I am and toejam's play recently has been off.

I have explained repeatedly why EL and GL are scum and town just keeps screwing it up.

[Titus]

That's your strawman. I highlighted many such indicators that you used, including talking like you knew people were town. You being rescued at the last second because of GL chainsawing on your behalf indicates partners. The abnormal closeness indicates partners.

5 bucks says you're the roleblocker.

[Titus]

That's definitely strange and scummy considering that it's already been done twice almost successfully.

That's your strawman. I highlighted many such indicators that you used, including talking like you knew people were town. You being rescued at the last second because of GL chainsawing on your behalf indicates partners. The abnormal closeness indicates partners.

5 bucks says you're the roleblocker.

How does that in any way shape or form indicate that I'm the roleblocker?
This is the only original quote I can find from you that indicates anything you've said about me. The rest of your posts are either: one post rephrasing this post or posts to the effect of "let's lynch Lemon now". There is no mention about GL arguing on my behalf indicating partners nor is there acknowledgement in your posts about agreeing with anyone else's points regarding.

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

If by "many indicators", you mean saying nancy was "trying to prove her innocence", which you called minor and again, using the term "bussing". I'd also like to point out that you said:

I am terrible with crumbs.

So now we have two contradictions, in one of which you say that I'm scum because there are small indicators but in the other where you say that you are awful with small indicators.

So which is it? I suggest you make a post detailing everything you think about me, no matter how obvious, because there seems to be something the rest of us are missing that you seem to have noticed but not said. Although I think this kind of behavior is really scummy, I'm definitely at least a little concerned that a seasoned player would drop something as obvious as this.

Wow, how long did it take you to make this misreppy argument?

Crumbs are small hints indicating a role.

What I look for is phrasing, voting, and anything else that indicates an unnatural connection.

I have highlighted that unnatural connection repeatedly thoughout the game.

@Rwvan, I have highlighted why EL is scum, repeatedly. I have also highlighted why GL is. The game has stalled because you are not hearing me or putting up a case of your own.

[Titus]

Spoiler: All my prior quotes highlighting EL and GL being scummy

VOTE: EccentricLemon

My bad. I am showing off the naked voting strategy, so not yet.

Hey GL,

Do you think Eccentric Lemon is town?

What do you think of me?

Why you ignore my hello?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

What did you think of my freudian slip?

I'm probably butting in since you directed this at GL, but I totally missed this - where was the Freudian slip!?! I re-read your posts and can't find it!

I voted ElectricLion, aka ElectricLemon plus GuiltyLion.

I get the feeling that Titus is hiding behind Jae.

I don't think this is the case.

Titus is usually the IC, so I think she's holding back a bit to not interfere with me since this is my first time playing as an IC. It's a weird shift from being an SE that I'm still getting a feel for, despite a lot of the time as an SE chiming in with theory when I've seen newbies struggling. I feel that Titus is trying to support me in that role, actually, which is probably why you get that feeling.

If not, could you point out where you think Titus has been hiding behind me in a game sense?

Partially, but I am also naked voting to see if I can trigger more of the funny speech patterns from Lemon.

I felt the same way regarding GL avoiding me. My real life is slammed, so I am going to highlight what I am seeing in Lemon.

ElectricLemon's phrasing suggests she knows that nancy is town. In 68, she says nancy isn't trying to "prove her innocence", why not say she is not trying to appear town? Minor, but it caused me to want more of a look.

EL also makes a big deal about how he's not pushing anyone, as if sbe doesn't want to upset anyone. Her "push" if you can call it that, fades when "the cool kids" unvote. She makes a big deal about how she's not accusing anyone.

Then, she throws a comment that me playing quieter means that there's a 1 v 1 with conftown.

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

As for you JaeReed, awkward =/= town. Many caught scum look for reasons to attack a read. That's what she was doing by saying we're too far along for gut. Her ISO isn't focused on determining alignment of anyone. There's a litter of ADD scattershot pushes.

Right, and those votes earlier were much more for pressure (e.g. Titus's naked vote). Votes now on Lemon are votes to lynch.

I do not vote "for pressure" as a rule. My votes are to kill or in rare instances as a warning to change behavior.

^^My response wound up in quote. EL just seems far too obsessed with not throwing GL under the bus.

I have time for one really quick post

Titus: We're way past that. Last time that was mentioned was #82, and we're in the 300s now. Just seems a bit weird that you're pushing something that I dropped before the game gained momentum. Is there really nothing else that tells you that I could be scum?

nancy: I'd like you to please explain why your vote on me was so definite when you said at the beginning of your post that you were ambiguous about me.

You all already voted me up right at the beginning of the game, unvoted, and then started voting me up again. Just pointing that out.

There is no past. Just now. Time possibly determines revelance, but not whether I let things go.

Your posts are riddled with such awkward language that suggests scum and on D1 in a small game, word choice is the best evidence.

Bowdown, stop being overly protective of GL.

Revan's vote makes sense as a strategic one. It's more cause for concern if Revan didn't vote his counter.

@Nancy, ElectricLemon can be coached pregame.

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

So what you're saying, paraphrased, is: "It's more likely than not that EL and GL are scumbuddies because EL said she didn't want to throw GL under the bus"? Am I parsing that right?

Now can you tell me why that's not an extremely contrived, nitpicky reach of an argument? An argument which is easily defeated by the alternate explanation which I already presented in 350:

she used a word without knowing the context/meaning on MafiaScum

You're assuming:
a) EL has knowledge of what it means to "bus" someone, despite this being her first game on mafiascum
b) EL and I are partners and both scum
c) EL accidentally slipped point b) by using the terminology "bus" in the context of a) in post 82.

This is a scumcase. It's fake, illogical reasoning. They're all huge assumptions independently, and being used together in a way that no townie would push with genuine intentions. If we're flash wagoning anyone today, it's Titus.

Scared much? How cute.

A townie wouldn't know bussed if first game. If she's coached by someone, done. Either you're scum or she's buddying you imo.

GL, I can comment on a vote pattern for review later.

You on the other hand are trying to paint everything I do as scummy. That's the narrative sell.

I did not see a slip. I still do not. You, being a large veteran, know most so called slips are not actually slips.

That's your strawman. I highlighted many such indicators that you used, including talking like you knew people were town. You being rescued at the last second because of GL chainsawing on your behalf indicates partners. The abnormal closeness indicates partners.

5 bucks says you're the roleblocker.

[Titus]

I can't tell if you're consciously trying to divert from the fact that you don't have much of a case or if you're just refusing to tell us something that seems obvious to you.

Spoiler: Quote Wall

Let's lynch Lemon.

Two days until deadlijne.
It's the counter.
He doesn't townread EL.

I am willing to lynch EL or GL.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

Why doesn't it to you?

Oh wait, you're not likely town

and respond to my question about the associative you're trying to draw between me and EL, please. At the very least - I want you to reaffirm or deny that you are arguing that EL scumslipped by saying she didn't want to "bus" me.

Indicator, not slip.

???

this is a bullshit dodge. Either it's indicative and a slip, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways

No. An indicator is more likely than not to come from scum. A scumslip MUST come from scum

So what you're saying, paraphrased, is: "It's more likely than not that EL and GL are scumbuddies because EL said she didn't want to throw GL under the bus"? Am I parsing that right?

Now can you tell me why that's not an extremely contrived, nitpicky reach of an argument? An argument which is easily defeated by the alternate explanation which I already presented in 350:

she used a word without knowing the context/meaning on MafiaScum

You're assuming:
a) EL has knowledge of what it means to "bus" someone, despite this being her first game on mafiascum
b) EL and I are partners and both scum
c) EL accidentally slipped point b) by using the terminology "bus" in the context of a) in post 82.

This is a scumcase. It's fake, illogical reasoning. They're all huge assumptions independently, and being used together in a way that no townie would push with genuine intentions. If we're flash wagoning anyone today, it's Titus.

Scared much? How cute.

A townie wouldn't know bussed if first game. If she's coached by someone, done. Either you're scum or she's buddying you imo.

Agreed, so you can vote EL scum and we are both happy.

VOTE: ELemon

Now, let's do this today.

Umm yeah, I think the team is EL and GL but I ain't trusting you that much.

Oh poor me defense never goes well EL.

I have explained repeatedly why EL and GL are scum and town just keeps screwing it up.

Oh no, I have a case. You're more focused on getting Revan to tune me out than finding scum.

[Titus]

That's a lot of quotes saying that EL is scummy, but you're still giving me no reason to vote EL.

Ok, if highlighting repeatedly where EL is fake repeatedly is not a reason, then tell me why. Otherwise, I will keep giving you the same proof and we'll keep talking past each other.

[Titus]

It's honestly baffling that Titus could think any of the quotes she posted in 684 constitute a case. There's no meat there whatsoever, and the few actual claims that she has made (EL saying she didn't want to throw me under the "bus" indicates that we're partners, I "derailed" EL's wagon yesterDay) I've already argued against in detail. I've seen town!Titus push me hard for much better reasons when I was scum in College Mafia. This is not Titus being genuine.

Again, this is just shading. The pair of them are more focused on Titus's reasons are not good than finding scum.

They are treating you as town.
They are treating toejam as town.
They are treating each other as town.

There's two scum left.

Do the math.

[Titus]

They're also treating bowdown and AS as town too.

[Titus]

Titus what makes EL's posts fake?

The word choice they use which I have been over.

[Titus]

Welp. This game is lost.

If the wagons where they buddy and save each other and the fakeness from their posts and their lying about buddying you are not evidence to you, well then y'all don't listen to evidence. That means we lose.

I am not voting anyone but those two. Period.

[Titus]

Yup, remind me to not play with toejam for awhile. Arrogant bastard. Vigs consensus townreads and never supposes he's wrong, never waits for his townreads approval.

Yes, I am defeated. It's because you're that incompetent.

[Titus]

Confident, not arrogant. The rest of the thread is arrogant by refusing to even hear the thoughts but deny they exist.

Confidence in toejam being town is not an inconsistency. I am confident you are the roleblocker and that's why GuiltyLion is lying to save you.

[Titus]

By the way, this nk does mean that scum has a roleblocker and that I am the last PR.

Yes, from your perspective. Technically, you still mathmatically could be scum. I have zero interest in lynching you though.

You acknowledged right here that tojam could still be scum and you still haven't actually said why you think I'm the roleblocker that you stated here may not even exist.
Confidence became arrogance when you started insulting people for not agreeing with something that you refused to back up, even after being asked multiple times to reiterate your argument. I asked you twice and gave you time to reply before I voted you up, Revan has asked you to multiple times. Saying no one will listen to your argument is a flat out lie.

Hello Sobolev!
I got off to a rough start, but how I'd summarize the game D1 is:
* I (Lemon) used some weird language at the beginning which resulted in me being voted up, where I got super defensive and apologetic. (You should definitely read that and make of it what you will.)
* There was quite a bit here between nancy and bowdown and JaeReed which I got a bit confused in. bowdown is the player you replaced)
* Eventually Revan joined and we started voting him up because we thought he was being inconsistent.
* The vote quickly got changed to me.
* nancy slipped a comment that seemed like it indicated that she was aware of alignment, so the vote quickly changed to her.
You should still definitely read yesterday's (game yesterday) posts, especially at the end of the game since I feel a lot was summarized there.

As for today:
* Titus has been pushing that Lemon and GuiltyLion are scumpartners for unclear reasons (again, you should read into that argument and make of it what you will, because GL, Revan, and maybe AgentSparkles seem to find it unclear)
* GL and I are pushing back, we think Titus is scum (again, make sure to read our arguments and decide on your own whether you think they are valid)
* Another topic that just came up is my general distrust in tojam (another thing to read in on, he made a claim D1, it's up to you to decide if my argument is justified or not)
* Currently it's also a bit of a question about whether not voting is keeping information away from the rest of the players (mostly between AgentSparkles and GuiltyLion)
I tried my best to make it as impartial as possible. Welcome!

Word vomit.

Yes, I acknowledged a theoretical possibility to teach toejam something given his recent play. From his perspective, he a roleblocker is a certainty. From ours, we will never have absolute certainty. Yet, read the next sentence. I have zero interest in lynching him.

The vote changed to nancy fast because GL shaded Nancy and scum quick hammerred her. There was nothing remotely close to a slip but you still shade the dead and GL should know better.

[Titus]

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

But why do you think bulba/kento would need to see your post to remember that they have to confirm? If they're reading this thread, they would already know they need to confirm and participate, no?

I'm operating under the assumption that we should try to break down any read, whether town, scum, or null, and that if a read is good it'll stand up to scrutiny by others.

I want to talk about this. What do you mean by "good" read - a read that is accurate or a read that is justified? In my experience, scum like to make everyone's reads about logic and evidence, because those things are easier to twist or poke holes at. If a player happens to accurately (but perhaps illogically) townread a townie, there isn't a pro-town benefit to breaking down that read unless it is actively helping sort the player who gave the townread. Whereas it helps scum to jump in and weaken townreads, as it keeps the lynchpool wider.

Also, because scum already know who is town, when asked about their fake townreads they can usually explain them convincingly. Scumreads are harder to fake.

IMO the most effective townplay is scrutinizing and justifying scumreads, not townreads

- GuiltyLion, I'd love to hear more thoughts about this game specifically other than "sparkles why are you acting like a mod?"

I have been mulling over whether I think Jae's 24 is sincere, as it's a bit of a curveball question to answer if you're scum. I know as scum I've bragged about my scumgame before (start here and read the subsequent discussion), because it projected a certain town-esque indignant attitude of "how dare I be [correctly] scumread, if I were scum you would think I was town", so the fact that they pointed out a shallow feature of their scumplay may indicate they're working with a town frame of mind. Regardless of their alignment in this particular game, it's probably a true self-assessment, so I'd keep it in mind later in the game (after a few game-Days) if you're town and you get the sense that they're faking emotions or forcing reads, and bring it up again.

I asked nancy that question about reads because I wanted to dig into why she was pressing Jae on his townreads, but felt a little rebuffed by 53 However, I do think her 'gut scumread' on toejam looks genuine, I don't think newbie scum would have the bravado to post something like 67 and refuse to try to explain the read. Light townlean there.

everyone else still pretty null. I like to let some conversations between other players breathe a bit because I find I generally make better reads from observing interactions rather than driving them. Whenever I replace into games, my reads are usually better than games where I'm posting from the getgo, and outside of RtR I have a bad habit of tunneling on town in D1. Newbie games I like to slow down and pace myself a bit more, partially because the games tend to get more involved in the "theory of mafia" anyway.

What do you mean by "for show"? I was on Lemon because that was my first decent-sized ping. I moved off Lemon to see what she was like without feeling like she has to be on the defensive. I'm unsure how I feel about lemon right now - I want to do some more in-depth reading of her latest post and I think there's some credence to nancy's idea that Lemon's just not putting out goodtown tells.

"for show" = without a real scumread or desire to lynch.

Have you done the in-depth reading? What do you currently think of Lemon?

Triangle vote was absolutely legit, but I moved off it for three reasons:

1. Two days have gone since Triangle even posted, so the pressure there is wasted
2. It didn't generate much discussion or content, which IMO is the most important thing we can get out of D1
3. Most importantly, tojam put out some seriously scummy posts and I have a decently strong scumread there - much stronger than either of the initial Lemon/Triangle reads.

I guess my problem with 1 is why was pressure on Triangle better than pressure on Lemon at the point in the game at which you unvoted?

on 3, I'm not sold on tojam's posts being "seriously scummy", my thought on your case below

What do you think of the questions Jae has asked so far (e.g. 88, 102)? Do you feel like they're from a protown perspective?

oops I forgot to respond to 88 actually.

response to 88: wasn't bothered by it
thoughts on 88: I could see it either way, if town!Jae is scumreading nancy then it makes sense to poke at me about it like that, but if scum!Jae were fishing for mislynch votes then it could serve that purpose as well. It's something to revisit on a nancy flip, and also slightly more informative now that Jae also has nancy as their top townread.

so

@Jae

- at what point did you decide nancy was a top townread?

as for 102, I've asked questions like that before when I thought newbies were scumreading people for bad reasons and I wanted to get a better grip on their reasoning. I'd say it's a pro-town question.

and I have some thoughts on his tojam case but I would like to let tojam respond to it first before jumping in

Would love to hear them now that tojam has responded.

so the thing is your entire case is built off of tojam being hypocritical in scumreading nancy for vote parking on a null, while doing the same thing himself.
Why do you think hypocrisy is indicative of scum alignment, especially in this particular case? Your 124 reads to me like "here are facts about things that happened, so tojam is a good vote", but I feel I'm missing the causality reasoning as to why voting nancy for doing something that he is guilty of himself makes tojam scum.

okay, so I went through and reread and I don't want to lynch {tojam, nancy, Lemon, Jae} today.

I most want to do this
VOTE: Revan

reasons forthcoming

But we do need to decide on a lynch in the next 48 hours before we rush a mislynch.

this is hard to do without Agent Sparkles voting and with a number of legacy/vanity solo votes (EL on tojam, tojam on nancy). At this point in time I think the onus is on you three to make consolidation happen. Normally I'd include Jae in this group too but I trust them to start voting/pushing a lynch before we get too close to deadline. At the very least you can talk about players you're not willing to lynch.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day,

I think you need to reread my ISO. Just because I don't post as much does not mean there is no substance to my posts.

I'm literally scumhunting in the two posts above yours

You can eat rope if you're going to post one line misreps

yeah, given that nancy is not the jailkeeper, I think that's a slip

intent to hammer nancy

I'm not sure how much time we really need left for today but I'll do it in either 2-3 hours before I go to bed or ~10ish or so hours when I wake up. So everyone get your last words in now if you got em

You spent the whole game shading nancy but keeping her in the don't lynch pool. Then, you opportunistically hammerred.

[Titus]

EL isn't newb town. If I have to settle for GL first. Fine.

VOTE: GL

[Titus]

AS, can you repost what you feel is the case against Reva?

@SS, I can make the case you requested, but it's pretty much the same. EL posts as if he knows everyone in the thread is town. It just involves Parsing his ISO.

[Titus]

also, I'd like everyone to look at these two posts again:

Also, in 503, Titus comments on "how easy it is to derail EL". But she's also suggested multiple times that I am scum with EL. I didn't lead the change to Nancy, nor was I wagoning EL prior. So it doesn't make sense that she would suggest scum!motivation to Jae/Revan, who were the primary reasons the wagon switched over yesterday. She's not thinking through her reads organically, she's sticking to a narrative and pretending to scumhunt.

I am at EL/GL GL/Revan or EL/Revan,

yet GL is correct that town essentially became unhinged at EoD yesterday

.

here, Titus is even

acknowledging

that I am right, that the EL wagon was "derailed" by Jae and Revan. She straight up admitted as such. But has she changed her reads or sought to investigate this? No, she hasn't, and when she was pressed she defaulted

back

to a lie about how I was the one who "shaded nancy".

You tricked them. You tricked Nancy into believing she slipped when she hadn't. That lynch was terrible.

Yet, you try and make yourself blameless when you were the scum cause to save EL and lynch the one person who refuses to mislynch town.

[Titus]

@AS, I'm fine with you hammering, game's going stale so we might not get any closer to finding a partner today.

Yeah, the only thing you are finding is your own ego.

[Titus]

VLA until Monday.

[Titus]

Hey, I'm going to highlight the obvious here and move back to EL in case it's EL/SS.

SS has said lynch GL/Titus/Revan in any order, yet doesn't provide content on me and is attempting to divert attention. It looks like SS wants it both ways. I suspected Titus too but she was town, so let's follow her reads. Flip GL. Town loses.

VOTE: EL

[Titus]

Hey, I'm going to highlight the obvious here and move back to EL in case it's EL/SS.

SS has said lynch GL/Titus/Revan in any order, yet doesn't provide content on me and is attempting to divert attention. It looks like SS wants it both ways. I suspected Titus too but she was town, so let's follow her reads. Flip GL. Town loses.

VOTE: EL

1) This is only a plausible theory if you're town, which I really doubt at this point.
2) Assuming that I'm wrong: If Sobolev wanted to blindly follow a dead townie's reads and lynch GL, why did she move GL to a townread after nancy called GL out as definite scum? And what happened to this?

I am not voting anyone but those two. Period.

Tojam, what about the ones that Titus has been giving? Are her "shading nancy" and "you tricked them" comments less scummy?

I was not wanting anyone to try and sell me on the obvious town lynches that have been put forth in Revan, Nancy and toejam. I'm just fed up and frustrated with garbage pushes. Like really? What do I gotta do to get town to stop lynching obvious town?

I left and cooled down a bit. I still feel that the majority of this town is chasing its tail.

The timing is key. By blindly following my reads, then SS would just coast on mislynches and whoops.

[Titus]

Titus, I appreciate the honesty in that post. I think you got a little too frustrated before. I hope we can clear up some stuff that was said before, both on my part and on yours.

A lot of personal stuff has come up lately, so I'll be posting a bit less from now on. Sorry guys.

This is the kind of post I am talking about. Why is EL supposing his scumread is honest?

[Titus]

Revan and Lemon are worth looking into, but I think Titus is the most likely mafia at this point. It makes zero sense for an SE to go spouting some of the stuff that she has and then get frustrated at people for not believeing her. I just can't imagine any scenario where the way she's playing would be sensible town play. Also, she never responded to GL's request to highlight where he tricked the others.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

Titus and Lemon are both at L-1

You cannot believe that I would not be frustrated with people for not getting with the program?

Or do you just not want to reevaluate your EL read?

EL has had counters with Revan, me and Nancy. All of us are town. At some point, you have to accept that you are wrong.

[Titus]

Revan, me and Nancy. All of us are town. At some point, you have to accept that you are wrong.

There is definitely no certainty that Revan or you are town, and this is definitely not something a town would say. I really don't like this certainty of alignment. The only person that is proven town out of this list is nancy and the only person that would make this kind of statement is a scum convinced of the towniness of the players around them and trying to lump themselves into the same category.

Tldr of these two posts.

I hate your scumpool. Die town Die.

[Titus]

Town solving the game should result in more certainty, not less. If your IC was here, they'd tell you that. You shot her though.

[Titus]

The absolute pool is EL with GL or SS. That's just proven by wagon behavior. If we don't break them up, that will be the endgame.

[Titus]

Town solving the game should result in more certainty, not less. If your IC was here, they'd tell you that. You shot her though.

If you were actually scumhunting, you'd explore options that aren't me. The vast majority of your posts are either "lynch Lemon" or "Lemon's evidence sucks" without actually explaining in a valid way why my evidence sucks. I'm completely for arguing and debating, but you just don't provide anything but assurances you're town and claims that I'm scum.

It's really, really strange that I was your first vote and you've spent the entire game since then trying to lynch me.

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt about the whole insult thing, because I know you're busy IRL, but your reply to my willingness to start fresh and your continued insults instead of evidence have completely solidified the fact that you're just desperately clinging to the hope that you come off as frustrated town.

I already hunted you.

I do not need your pity.

I never insulted you.

You just are scum. Stop being pedantic. It is not your suit.

[Titus]

Intent to hammer Titus

Unless there are any significant changes or Titus gives a very convincing defense I'll be back in 12 hours to hammer.

As promised here I am to hammer.

VOTE: Titus

If Titus is scum I'm feeling her partner is either Revan or possibly Sparkles.

If Titus is somehow town I think scumteam is GL/Revan.

Not even 12 hours, and your "scumteam" conviently excludes the outed scum or reassessing. Yeah, I was probably wrong on GL.

You stopped bussing EL the moment you saw GL was too stubbornly proud to realize the destruction he wrought.

I hate proud towns.

[Titus]

Revan is likely her partner if she's scum. If not, I could see Revan/EL, or to a lesser extent EL/GL. EL is the consistent one between those two, but also isn't as scummy as Revan.

EL/SS. The SS vote on EL was a bus. He exit hatched once he saw no hammer on EL was coming.