Newbie 1768: Party Mafia - Game over!

[Titus]

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

But why do you think bulba/kento would need to see your post to remember that they have to confirm? If they're reading this thread, they would already know they need to confirm and participate, no?

I'm operating under the assumption that we should try to break down any read, whether town, scum, or null, and that if a read is good it'll stand up to scrutiny by others.

I want to talk about this. What do you mean by "good" read - a read that is accurate or a read that is justified? In my experience, scum like to make everyone's reads about logic and evidence, because those things are easier to twist or poke holes at. If a player happens to accurately (but perhaps illogically) townread a townie, there isn't a pro-town benefit to breaking down that read unless it is actively helping sort the player who gave the townread. Whereas it helps scum to jump in and weaken townreads, as it keeps the lynchpool wider.

Also, because scum already know who is town, when asked about their fake townreads they can usually explain them convincingly. Scumreads are harder to fake.

IMO the most effective townplay is scrutinizing and justifying scumreads, not townreads

- GuiltyLion, I'd love to hear more thoughts about this game specifically other than "sparkles why are you acting like a mod?"

I have been mulling over whether I think Jae's 24 is sincere, as it's a bit of a curveball question to answer if you're scum. I know as scum I've bragged about my scumgame before (start here and read the subsequent discussion), because it projected a certain town-esque indignant attitude of "how dare I be [correctly] scumread, if I were scum you would think I was town", so the fact that they pointed out a shallow feature of their scumplay may indicate they're working with a town frame of mind. Regardless of their alignment in this particular game, it's probably a true self-assessment, so I'd keep it in mind later in the game (after a few game-Days) if you're town and you get the sense that they're faking emotions or forcing reads, and bring it up again.

I asked nancy that question about reads because I wanted to dig into why she was pressing Jae on his townreads, but felt a little rebuffed by 53 However, I do think her 'gut scumread' on toejam looks genuine, I don't think newbie scum would have the bravado to post something like 67 and refuse to try to explain the read. Light townlean there.

everyone else still pretty null. I like to let some conversations between other players breathe a bit because I find I generally make better reads from observing interactions rather than driving them. Whenever I replace into games, my reads are usually better than games where I'm posting from the getgo, and outside of RtR I have a bad habit of tunneling on town in D1. Newbie games I like to slow down and pace myself a bit more, partially because the games tend to get more involved in the "theory of mafia" anyway.

What do you mean by "for show"? I was on Lemon because that was my first decent-sized ping. I moved off Lemon to see what she was like without feeling like she has to be on the defensive. I'm unsure how I feel about lemon right now - I want to do some more in-depth reading of her latest post and I think there's some credence to nancy's idea that Lemon's just not putting out goodtown tells.

"for show" = without a real scumread or desire to lynch.

Have you done the in-depth reading? What do you currently think of Lemon?

Triangle vote was absolutely legit, but I moved off it for three reasons:

1. Two days have gone since Triangle even posted, so the pressure there is wasted
2. It didn't generate much discussion or content, which IMO is the most important thing we can get out of D1
3. Most importantly, tojam put out some seriously scummy posts and I have a decently strong scumread there - much stronger than either of the initial Lemon/Triangle reads.

I guess my problem with 1 is why was pressure on Triangle better than pressure on Lemon at the point in the game at which you unvoted?

on 3, I'm not sold on tojam's posts being "seriously scummy", my thought on your case below

What do you think of the questions Jae has asked so far (e.g. 88, 102)? Do you feel like they're from a protown perspective?

oops I forgot to respond to 88 actually.

response to 88: wasn't bothered by it
thoughts on 88: I could see it either way, if town!Jae is scumreading nancy then it makes sense to poke at me about it like that, but if scum!Jae were fishing for mislynch votes then it could serve that purpose as well. It's something to revisit on a nancy flip, and also slightly more informative now that Jae also has nancy as their top townread.

so

@Jae

- at what point did you decide nancy was a top townread?

as for 102, I've asked questions like that before when I thought newbies were scumreading people for bad reasons and I wanted to get a better grip on their reasoning. I'd say it's a pro-town question.

and I have some thoughts on his tojam case but I would like to let tojam respond to it first before jumping in

Would love to hear them now that tojam has responded.

so the thing is your entire case is built off of tojam being hypocritical in scumreading nancy for vote parking on a null, while doing the same thing himself.
Why do you think hypocrisy is indicative of scum alignment, especially in this particular case? Your 124 reads to me like "here are facts about things that happened, so tojam is a good vote", but I feel I'm missing the causality reasoning as to why voting nancy for doing something that he is guilty of himself makes tojam scum.

okay, so I went through and reread and I don't want to lynch {tojam, nancy, Lemon, Jae} today.

I most want to do this
VOTE: Revan

reasons forthcoming

But we do need to decide on a lynch in the next 48 hours before we rush a mislynch.

this is hard to do without Agent Sparkles voting and with a number of legacy/vanity solo votes (EL on tojam, tojam on nancy). At this point in time I think the onus is on you three to make consolidation happen. Normally I'd include Jae in this group too but I trust them to start voting/pushing a lynch before we get too close to deadline. At the very least you can talk about players you're not willing to lynch.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day,

I think you need to reread my ISO. Just because I don't post as much does not mean there is no substance to my posts.

I'm literally scumhunting in the two posts above yours

You can eat rope if you're going to post one line misreps

yeah, given that nancy is not the jailkeeper, I think that's a slip

intent to hammer nancy

I'm not sure how much time we really need left for today but I'll do it in either 2-3 hours before I go to bed or ~10ish or so hours when I wake up. So everyone get your last words in now if you got em

You spent the whole game shading nancy but keeping her in the don't lynch pool. Then, you opportunistically hammerred.

[GuiltyLion]

can someone just hammer this please

[Agent Sparkles]

Agent Sparkles what is your case?

Everything I pointed out in these posts:

And then Revan. His reasoning seems pretty shallow and at times irrational. Just like I questioned tojam because his first townread was based on "furthering discussion," Revan claims a similar read on me in 154. His case on Jae is very flawed, acting sure that Jae's comment on being scum in two "completed games" is them slipping, which is really a stretch. As a normal statement, what Jae said made perfect sense, but as a slip, it's a really obvious goof-up that even new players should notice before sending, much less an IC. Later, he accuses them of using basic, surface-level thinking, which is exactly what he'd been doing most of the time.

Revan, your recent posts have only made me more suspicious of you. This progression on Lemon is terrible:

I think EL is too townread to be lynched today.



Jae is the right lynch.

VOTE: EL

I don't want EL in LYLO anyway

It is a self save, though.

@bowdown I was townreading EL on page 2. Why do you believe that that read is still current? It looks like you're stretching now.

I only have a slight TR on EL, so I don't mind.

I was voting my scumread. You're really grasping for straws here.

I believe EL will flip 60% green 40% red.

I scumread both of you.

Let me get this straight.

In a span of 4 pages, you (in order) say EL is too town to be lynched, vote EL and say you don't want her in LYLO, (<--- these first two were misinterpretations)

claim it was a self-save, say that you were townreading her on page 2 and not necessarily anymore (pretty sure the 2 was a typo, but regardless it was only 2 pages and 3 of your posts ago), claim that you do in fact townread her (although slightly), backtrack and say you voted her because you scumread her, and then say that she's 60% town and 40% scum. In the process, you push Lemon to L-1 and later claim that there's plenty of time to lynch Guilty. You're being really incoherent.

And about this:

If I was town/scum reading Titus I would have no reason to do a reaction test.

I'll lynch GL if none of you will lynch Jae.

There was a reason I asked about scum communication. Since you and Titus were my top scumreads, I considered a hypothetical scenario were you were partners and your strategy of attacking Titus for a reaction and later unvoting was your way of bussing for credit without actually lynching her. This would've been undermined if scum could talk during the day, since you could've informed her of what you were trying to do and she probably would've been more cooperative. Alone, it's not a very strong case to make against you, but combined with the above quote wall and everything else you've said and done, it's hard to see you as town.[/spoiler]

VOTE: Revan

2) You're wrong in assuming I only read his ISO. Even if you take away the first two quotes (which I misinterpreted and was corrected on), his last five have clear inconsistencies in them whether they're in the context of the argument or not. In 407, you attack him for voting up his supposed townread (clearly referring to the Lemon vote, not the earlier JaeReed one) and he responds saying that he was voting for his scumread. This is where your read on him visibly starts cracking, even though he just did one of two things:
a) Directly contradicted himself about Lemon
b) Changed the subject his previous vote, after you'd already gone back and forth enough times to make it clear what you're arguing about.
Even if we assume that b is true and it was a genuine mistake, in 394 he heavily implies that EL is no longer his townread, then debunks that in 403 and 413 with no apparent reason to change his stance.

[SirCakez]

Votecount 2.4

Titus (3) - GuiltyLion, EccentricLemon, tojam2
EccentricLemon (1) - Titus
Revan (1) - Agent Sparkles

Not voting (2) - Revan, Sobolev Space

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch someone.

(expired on 2017-02-01 15:04:00) remain until day end

[EccentricLemon]

GL, I would still like to hear your response on Titus' post.

[Sobolev Space]

Finished my read through.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Lynch GL, Titus, Revan in any order -> Town win

GGs everyone. Looking forward to playing with you all in future games.

[EccentricLemon]

Sobolev, if you think lynching those three in any order would be a town win, why did you decide not to follow the wagon.
I don't have a townread on GL, don't get me wrong. I just want to hear your opinion since you're new.

[EccentricLemon]

^ that first sentence was supposed to have a question mark.

[Revan]

Sparkles how is my analysis shallow?

[Sobolev Space]

EL, would be fine lynching Titus today too but didn't want to hammer and wanted to create discussion about GL as well.

[Agent Sparkles]

I'm guessing that question is just for RVS purposes, but if you actually want it answered, I'm just reminding the inactive players so that they don't get kicked from the game. And for obvious reasons, it's helpful to have as many active players as possible.

But why do you think bulba/kento would need to see your post to remember that they have to confirm? If they're reading this thread, they would already know they need to confirm and participate, no?

I'm operating under the assumption that we should try to break down any read, whether town, scum, or null, and that if a read is good it'll stand up to scrutiny by others.

I want to talk about this. What do you mean by "good" read - a read that is accurate or a read that is justified? In my experience, scum like to make everyone's reads about logic and evidence, because those things are easier to twist or poke holes at. If a player happens to accurately (but perhaps illogically) townread a townie, there isn't a pro-town benefit to breaking down that read unless it is actively helping sort the player who gave the townread. Whereas it helps scum to jump in and weaken townreads, as it keeps the lynchpool wider.

Also, because scum already know who is town, when asked about their fake townreads they can usually explain them convincingly. Scumreads are harder to fake.

IMO the most effective townplay is scrutinizing and justifying scumreads, not townreads

- GuiltyLion, I'd love to hear more thoughts about this game specifically other than "sparkles why are you acting like a mod?"

I have been mulling over whether I think Jae's 24 is sincere, as it's a bit of a curveball question to answer if you're scum. I know as scum I've bragged about my scumgame before (start here and read the subsequent discussion), because it projected a certain town-esque indignant attitude of "how dare I be [correctly] scumread, if I were scum you would think I was town", so the fact that they pointed out a shallow feature of their scumplay may indicate they're working with a town frame of mind. Regardless of their alignment in this particular game, it's probably a true self-assessment, so I'd keep it in mind later in the game (after a few game-Days) if you're town and you get the sense that they're faking emotions or forcing reads, and bring it up again.

I asked nancy that question about reads because I wanted to dig into why she was pressing Jae on his townreads, but felt a little rebuffed by 53 However, I do think her 'gut scumread' on toejam looks genuine, I don't think newbie scum would have the bravado to post something like 67 and refuse to try to explain the read. Light townlean there.

everyone else still pretty null. I like to let some conversations between other players breathe a bit because I find I generally make better reads from observing interactions rather than driving them. Whenever I replace into games, my reads are usually better than games where I'm posting from the getgo, and outside of RtR I have a bad habit of tunneling on town in D1. Newbie games I like to slow down and pace myself a bit more, partially because the games tend to get more involved in the "theory of mafia" anyway.

What do you mean by "for show"? I was on Lemon because that was my first decent-sized ping. I moved off Lemon to see what she was like without feeling like she has to be on the defensive. I'm unsure how I feel about lemon right now - I want to do some more in-depth reading of her latest post and I think there's some credence to nancy's idea that Lemon's just not putting out goodtown tells.

"for show" = without a real scumread or desire to lynch.

Have you done the in-depth reading? What do you currently think of Lemon?

Triangle vote was absolutely legit, but I moved off it for three reasons:

1. Two days have gone since Triangle even posted, so the pressure there is wasted
2. It didn't generate much discussion or content, which IMO is the most important thing we can get out of D1
3. Most importantly, tojam put out some seriously scummy posts and I have a decently strong scumread there - much stronger than either of the initial Lemon/Triangle reads.

I guess my problem with 1 is why was pressure on Triangle better than pressure on Lemon at the point in the game at which you unvoted?

on 3, I'm not sold on tojam's posts being "seriously scummy", my thought on your case below

What do you think of the questions Jae has asked so far (e.g. 88, 102)? Do you feel like they're from a protown perspective?

oops I forgot to respond to 88 actually.

response to 88: wasn't bothered by it
thoughts on 88: I could see it either way, if town!Jae is scumreading nancy then it makes sense to poke at me about it like that, but if scum!Jae were fishing for mislynch votes then it could serve that purpose as well. It's something to revisit on a nancy flip, and also slightly more informative now that Jae also has nancy as their top townread.

so

@Jae

- at what point did you decide nancy was a top townread?

as for 102, I've asked questions like that before when I thought newbies were scumreading people for bad reasons and I wanted to get a better grip on their reasoning. I'd say it's a pro-town question.

and I have some thoughts on his tojam case but I would like to let tojam respond to it first before jumping in

Would love to hear them now that tojam has responded.

so the thing is your entire case is built off of tojam being hypocritical in scumreading nancy for vote parking on a null, while doing the same thing himself.
Why do you think hypocrisy is indicative of scum alignment, especially in this particular case? Your 124 reads to me like "here are facts about things that happened, so tojam is a good vote", but I feel I'm missing the causality reasoning as to why voting nancy for doing something that he is guilty of himself makes tojam scum.

okay, so I went through and reread and I don't want to lynch {tojam, nancy, Lemon, Jae} today.

I most want to do this
VOTE: Revan

reasons forthcoming

But we do need to decide on a lynch in the next 48 hours before we rush a mislynch.

this is hard to do without Agent Sparkles voting and with a number of legacy/vanity solo votes (EL on tojam, tojam on nancy). At this point in time I think the onus is on you three to make consolidation happen. Normally I'd include Jae in this group too but I trust them to start voting/pushing a lynch before we get too close to deadline. At the very least you can talk about players you're not willing to lynch.

If you need any convincing, just look at GL's vote on me.

Terrible logic.

Titus how does this read like a town post to you?

GL has contributed pretty much nothing all day,

I think you need to reread my ISO. Just because I don't post as much does not mean there is no substance to my posts.

I'm literally scumhunting in the two posts above yours

You can eat rope if you're going to post one line misreps

yeah, given that nancy is not the jailkeeper, I think that's a slip

intent to hammer nancy

I'm not sure how much time we really need left for today but I'll do it in either 2-3 hours before I go to bed or ~10ish or so hours when I wake up. So everyone get your last words in now if you got em

You spent the whole game shading nancy but keeping her in the don't lynch pool. Then, you opportunistically hammerred.

The only one of these that can even be considered shading is 456, and 528 has already been explained. The rest are either townreads on nancy, show little to no read implications on her, or have nothing to do with her whatsoever.

You're just getting scummier by the minute, and your ad hominem attacks on tojam don't help.

Finished my read through.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Lynch GL, Titus, Revan in any order -> Town win

GGs everyone. Looking forward to playing with you all in future games.

Reasons for suspecting those three?

Sparkles how is my analysis shallow?

Your accusation of Jae slipping seemed more like scum taking an opportunity than a town interpretation. His post about being scum in "completed games" was speaking from an objective point of view. Making as painfully obvious a mistake as "whoops, I didn't say I wasn't scum in

this

game" isn't realistic for someone with as much experience as Jae. You didn't even seem to consider this, and instead jumped to the conclusion that he scumslipped. To a lesser extent, I thought that your TR comment on me "furthering discussion" seemed forced for the same reason that I thought tojam's case on Jae was early on:

Jae, I honestly can't work that out myself. Unless that's your way of stirring up conversation and starting the hunt, which I'm going to read you as Towny for.

This doesn't really resonate with me. Stirring up discussion alone is something that anyone can easily do, and in my opinion, not a very good basis for reads. JaeReed also earned some townie points with me for that post, but it's because of the way he purposely didn't explain himself and left it up to everyone else to think about, which seems like a genuine town strategy. I do think it's possible that you were thinking along these lines and just weren't as specific about it.

[Revan]

Jae's slip wasn't even my case on them. Try again.

[EccentricLemon]

Can you elaborate on the reasons you decided those three were scum?

[Sobolev Space]

Partly PoE: tojam is town, EL is newb town, Sparkles is lurky but all his posts are towny. That leaves those three.

For individual cases: my predecessor covered Revan pretty well, case on Titus should be obvious, case on GL is based on forced interactions with Titus especially today and some overall behavior I can go more in depth on if requested from yesterday.

@Revan, tojam - you both voted EL yesterday, would you want a lynch there today?

@tojam, Sparkles - what were your reasons for not voting Nancy during the flashlynch yesterday?

@GL - would you be fine with a Revan lynch today?

[Titus]

EL isn't newb town. If I have to settle for GL first. Fine.

VOTE: GL

[EccentricLemon]

Before I change my vote, GL:

I've wanted to bring this up for a while, and I think now is the best time to do so.
Why exactly are you so focused on not getting me lynched? At times, it definitely seems like you know more than what's been given to you. Defending me would be quite an advantage for you assuming you are scum and I am town:
1. It would give you towncred to back a town.
2. It would clear allegations that you are scum because since everyone's been mostly looking at you in the context of my scumpartner. If I flip green, that's to your advantage.
I'm not 100% convinced that you're scum, but it seems logical to me that you definitely could be.
So I'm asking you to convince me that you have a reason for defending me that isn't scummy.

[Sobolev Space]

Was looking for that vote from Titus to check any possible partnership there. It seems unlikely.

Titus: convince me EccentricLemon is scum without referring to post 82.

[tojam2]

Partly PoE: tojam is town, EL is newb town, Sparkles is lurky but all his posts are towny. That leaves those three.

For individual cases: my predecessor covered Revan pretty well, case on Titus should be obvious, case on GL is based on forced interactions with Titus especially today and some overall behavior I can go more in depth on if requested from yesterday.

@Revan, tojam - you both voted EL yesterday, would you want a lynch there today?

@tojam, Sparkles - what were your reasons for not voting Nancy during the flashlynch yesterday?

@GL - would you be fine with a Revan lynch today?

At the start of day 2 I made it clear I wanted EL lynched.
Nancy was lolhammered, I intended to hammer an hour before deadline as I said.

[Agent Sparkles]

Jae's slip wasn't even my case on them. Try again.

VOTE: JaeReed

Let me explain.

In their 143, they claim that they asked their questions in 87 and 88 to scumhunt. However, they don't follow up. I feel as though if they were trying to scumhunt, they would share with the town what they garnered from those responses. This leads me to believe that they're scum just going through the motions, and not genuinely trying to solve the game.

I'm also convinced that their 24 is a slip.

1) It contributed to your case, and it's scummy either way.
2) You're just dodging me at this point. How do you explain the other points I mentioned?

@tojam, Sparkles - what were your reasons for not voting Nancy during the flashlynch yesterday?

Wasn't online when it happened.

[Revan]

What other points? All I see is weak analysis.

[Agent Sparkles]

What other points? All I see is weak analysis.

Clearly trying to get a real response out of you is a lost cause, so I'm keeping my vote where it is.

[Revan]

Your vote is useless on me until you present a case.

[Agent Sparkles]

If you seriously don't think I've presented a case, you're in denial or you aren't reading the thread. I've gone into detail highlighting your flimsy reads and your wildly incoherent responses, and now you're repeatedly brushing me off and avoiding my arguments. I'd bet on you being scum with Lemon or Titus.

[Revan]

Nothing you've presented against me is alignment indicative.

[Titus]

AS, can you repost what you feel is the case against Reva?

@SS, I can make the case you requested, but it's pretty much the same. EL posts as if he knows everyone in the thread is town. It just involves Parsing his ISO.