Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Thor665]

Greetings all, read the last two pages (or a page and a half, however you care to parse it)

Unvote: AlpacaAlpaca
Vote: Karnos

Explains vote on me via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

The wagon on me appears to be based on activity for a slot that eventually replaced out - the defense rests.

What else is happening right now?

[Thor665]

My defense is of equal strength to the offense.
Why do you disagree?

[Thor665]

@Thor - Have you read the full game? If so what do you think of Lmk and Iron so far.

I have not, nor am I likely to.
LMK is empty - all I've seen is his 'hey. I am sorry for lurking!' post.
Iroh is also empty - he supposedly has a case on my slot, but doesn't ping at me at all. That said, on the presumption that I'm right about Karnos, then he's assured town. Mostly just empty.

[Thor665]

Of what I've read? Saru, Karnos, and maybe Nero. I'd actually wager money Nero isn't empty regardless, I'm sure he's made multiple clear pushes.

[Thor665]

Hey Karnos, Saru, what do you think of the Tracer slot?

Y'know, I have a name, and I've addressed you, and your case, and you haven't had the grapefruits to come back at me.
So I'll ask you this point blank.

Your case on Tracer was that she posted in a way that supported lurky scum trying to stay lurky and not be scum read for it.
That case is all well and good.
But then she was replaced out due to flaking.
She hasn't been on the site since.
Suggesting that her lurk was due to her own failures to come to the site and play the game either due to being busy, disliking all mafia games, or disliking this one so badly she decided to stop coming to the site.

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

[Thor665]

I mean, the most hilarious thing to me about the common meta here is that giving town reads is seen as A+++ good townie move, but any speculation at all about power roles is super bad scummy play. Except if someone is actually scum, they can discuss PR in scum chat, while town reads just give scum a guide on who to kill first, who to bus, etc. It's hilariously bad logic, but because it's become ingrained into the meta here everyone seems to think it's a good way to play.

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?
That doesn't work with PRs last I checked, because there's no such thing as a "not a PR list".
The proper compare - would be forcing multiple claims, especially on slots you don't scum read, which does narrow down scum's pools, and people do argue that as anti town.

Your debate with Saru is becoming very much white noise to me. I do tend to agree with his stance, because you appear to be more emotionally worked up, and I think his point about suggesting his scum read on you is based on you beating him elsewhere is pretty plainly fabricated (feel free to explain how it's a valid issue if you can - it looks like flail to me).

Are you calling Saru scummy?
If not, can we drop the debate and/or simply focus on what he's calling you scummy over?

@Saru - same goes for you, let's just pretend you bested Karnos on all the piddly points, and narrow down those walls by about half, yeah?

[Thor665]

Spoiler: Game Theory

If you claim who your scum reads are - what prevents scum from just reversing the list to get your town reads?

This turns into a circular argument: as town, why should I bother giving you guys my town reads, you can just look at my scum reads and use PoE to see who I read as town.

I don't find that unreasonably circular, in fact it's how I scumhunt on Day 1 in basically every game ever.
I agree that the inverse of town reads tend to be scum reads and vice versa - if you state one clearly than you're basically providing the other.

Of course the real answer is that it's more complex than that. There are varying levels: "confirmed town, obvious town, probably town, nullish town, etc. If, for the sake of argument, I was being globally read as obvious town, and of course scum knows I am town, they might use that information to nightkill me because they know I would be hard to get a miss lynch on. OTOH if I am largely read as scum, null, or at best nullish town, that tells scum that they can let me live and try to get me killed through a lynch. But if you don't give out town reads as specific as that, all the scum really gets is that X people scum read karnos, no idea about the rest... they have less information.

If scum can't figure out confirmed town and obvious null read lurkers and then look at scum reads to not be able to figure out town reads - then I think town has less things to worry about then stating their town reads.

It's good to keep town power roles secret from scum, everyone agrees on that. So why is it good to tell scum who your most trusted town reads are? It's completely illogical.

Well, many people would easily and happily point to townblocks and how they work to steamroll scum as evidence that stating town reads works.
I have literally never been scum in a game and unsure who townplayers townread - have you? Can you link me to the game in PM? This is an interesting discussion but is not game relevant really. But I'd love to grok this game theory.

First you say there isn't a "not PR list", and then you point out that such a thing actually does exist once people start claiming. You contradicted yourself here, so I don't really need to go into further detail. Suffice to say it's yet another illogical contradiction of the common meta that it's terrible bad to speculate about power roles but it's A+ good to get a claim out of a suspected scum.

If we take this around the bend of logic it's already going - are you saying we shouldn't get claims? Since a claim is like stating a town read?

In the scenario where Saru is scum, and the Tracer/Thor slot is scum, this is scum!Thor telling Saru to back off because he is drawing too much attention to himself and he will be the next one lynched after I flip town.

I think you are easily more likely to be flipped than Saru from this debate - in fact it is my intention to flip you regardless of the debate.
I don't see Saru being particularly at risk regardless of your flip though - no one is remotely making that claim.
Arguably, myself as your largest scumread (maybe) is the more likely person to be lynched if you flip town, right?

I note that you don't actually clarify the simple question of if you're scumreading him for these comments, nor do you address me pointing out how you're flailing, which you are.

[Thor665]

So - how does your case make any sense at all in any way?

It's scummy that you're still acting like it does.
Justify your play?

But what have you don since you replaced in? You placed an OMGUS vote on me, and... pretty much nothing else. Until your last post on the Saru/Karnos argument, pretty much all your posts have been self defense. Where are you scum hunting? You aren't me, and you don't seem to agree with my philosophy on sharing reads, so where are your reads?

I would suggest that my "OMGUS" is scumhunting. I expressed why I found you scummy, voted you, and that is a far more active and clear stance than my predecessor. It's pretty silly to suggest I'm playing like here whether or not I have a lot of reads now, because you've played with me multiple times and are fully aware that inactivity and hiding my opinions is not how I play regardless of alignment, so why are you trying to suggest that it is?

I submit it's because you're lying and are scum.

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

[Thor665]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

[Thor665]

thor looks better than karnos in this exchange, but gun to my head I think it's town v town.

I almost always look better.
I'm a master debater

[Thor665]

Wait, so you think Karnos is town?

[Thor665]

Explains vote on me via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Done and done.

[Thor665]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

Why would scum scared of sticking their necks out note a scumread?
Wouldn't the appropriate play be a soft white knight? Like 'I'm not sure about the Karnos case' or something like that?

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. [sarcasm]By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden [/sarcasm]. I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

So you think my strategy is flawed, but you are following it anyway? That would be anti-town from your point of view.

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

[Thor665]

So you think scum can figure out who is town-read without read lists easily enough, but you think town are too dumb to figure out the same?

I don't think they are.
I just don't see the point of making them spend the extra few moments doing so for the gain of obligating scum to the same.
I'm still open to seeing that game you had as scum where you couldn't figure out town reads.

This is effectively what he's doing, right? That's my point. He's not on the wagon but he's saying he supports it. He's trying to hedge.

No, he's calling a (presumed town) read scum - that defeats some of the purpose of not being on the wagon.
His action does make sense if Karnos is scum though and he is scum.
But that's not what you're saying, right?

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

The tags don't change shit. You still aren't sharing reads, which from my understanding is something Thor doesn't believe is pro-town.

As a joke or not, why are you acting anti-town?

Maybe I overestimated your grasp of sarcasm, or underestimated my ability to make a joke?

[Thor665]

Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads

I did what in the where now?
I happily disagree that it is pro town, but I never said it made you scummy.
I said the concept that you're claiming it is anti-town while performing actions that don't agree with your stated concept of how to play pro-town is scummy.
Functionally I'm calling your hypocrisy scummy.
You're now arguing insane things with me.

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

[Thor665]

402 "Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right."

In 402 you said you find me scummy because of 1- voting you, 2- because of my philosophy on sharing town reads.

If it doesn't make me scummy, then why is it your stated case on me? Are you saying you don't find me scummy, but you are voting me anyway? Is that an accidental scum claim?

That's not what I say in 402 - in 402 what I do is say that there is hypocrisy in claiming and sheeping a townread while not chasing your own scumreads considering your stated meta. You could have voted any of a theory claimed townread's scum reads and my case would be just as valid.

And, since you don't understand sarcasm, actually it was a Daycop claim, and I checked you.

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

What question are you talking about?

This question;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p8427748
And, while we're at it, now also the question in post 412, but maybe you need to see the other question to fully answer it?

[Thor665]

The point of the hypocrisy is - your concept of hiding town reads is to protect them from scum.
There was literally no need in any way at all to state Iro as a town read if this is your belief.
You could have just said you agreed with his case, you could have said that you found my slot scummy for any sort of reason. Heck, you could have just attacked your own scumread (that I'm not even sure was or was not me, since you've been so obtuse about your reads).
Instead you outed a town read as an excuse for a scummy vote move.
Looks defensive, hypocritical, and not in line with your stated concept of how to play as town - thus it is worthy of a vote, and a lynch also.

[Thor665]

The point of the hypocrisy is - your concept of hiding town reads is to protect them from scum.

Nope. You aren't this dumb to misunderstand things so badly as town, you are scum trying to misrepresent me.

Nothing is going to prevent scum from getting a night kill except a lucky doc. That isn't the goal of not sharing town reads. The idea is that if the town, overall has a general "obv town" guy and a "maybe kinda scummy but i think he is town" guy, that gives scum the easy path to victory of killing the obv town and leaving the sorta scummy town guys who are much more likely to be night killed.

By sharing a single read, I tell scum basically nothing to help them in the above. Sure, they know I think iron is town, but they don't know if I might have other even townier town reads, or less towny reads. They are still in the dark.

Not seeing it, this feels like flail, sticking to my take.

[Thor665]

{Thor, Saru, Aronagrundy}

Making this post here as a future placeholder.

I note that you yet again duck my question to you, and then you flip from voting Karnos to calling the people voting Karnos the entire scum team.
I'll ask what the hell is going on - I expect no answer because you've shown no inclination to explain anything when asked.

[Thor665]

@Karnos - what is your read on Iro as currently stands with his vote and read hopping around your wagon? Answered on the presumption you are town, natch

[Thor665]

I think he is probably town still. I saw his vote on me as sort of a reaction test, and/or trying to figure out where the wagon on me was going. I don't see why he would switch votes as scum.

I could easily see him switching votes as scum, I find it less likely that he would do what he did if you weren't a buddy though, i;ll agree with that.
How do you think he reaction tested anything though?

I doubt he accurately guessed the entire scum team, but I see why he listed the three he did. IMO if you and Saru are scum, the 3rd scum is probably staying far away from my wagon because of risk of being all caught by association is too high. There is also a fair chance that between you and Saru one is actually town just being taken advantage of by the scum, but I'm fairly confident that at least one of you is scum

I will agree that it makes perfect sense, if town reading you, to think one of those three is scum.
Calling all three the scumteam though is nonsensical, and I think you realize that but aren't saying it clearly for some reason.

Why do you think he's being overly defensive. It looks to me like Thor/Saru are going after him pretty hard and he's responding.

I'll actually agree that it isn't over defensive (or, rather, it is defensive - and it's impossible to be over defensive) but I do think it represents flail.
I'll happily agree he's under pressure, but are you reading his answers and defenses?
Could you justify his town read vote concept paired with his not revealing town reads? It's a concept that both Saru and I have clearly noted as lacking logic and that Karnos has pointedly ducked responding to - that doesn't ping you at all?

I'm not sure I'm understanding the disappearance of the Tracer/Thor wagon at this point. He hasn't been particularly townie.

You're not voting me either - I probably agree that I haven't done anything particularly townie (or at least not easily fakeable) but what have I done that is actually scummy? Or my predecessor for that matter? I know Iro is hard avoiding defending the weak case and leaving his vote there for too long, but why are you excited to dig at me? Do you still see value in the old case (if so what value?) or do you see me doing scummy things?

I would note that the wagon on Tracer existed due to lurk.
Since I'm clearly not lurking - doesn't it make sense that the wagon is dying? Why wouldn't it?

[Thor665]

Not saying that his answers don't appear scummy to me. My problem is that I

always

read karnos as scum. He also happens to always be scum in my town games. I guess I'm having a logic breakdown and want to hear the cases for voting him from those on his wagon.

Do you mean other than me and Saru?
Also, if you always read him as scum, and he has always been scum - I don't see why you're gunshy.

I don't find you scummy, so I'm not voting for you. Others were, and now they are hopping off. I would like to hear why as the answers provided thus far were not very informative.

[Thor665]

Because it's not logical and is purely emotion based.

Emotion or not, it appears to be accurate. So why auto distrust it?
I've seen you cite gut before, so...?

Are you claiming you have never seen a town flail?

I am not.
I would claim that I see scum flail in a percentage disproportionate to their actual ratio.

TBH, the term "flail" is highly abused and doesn't really have a strict definition, so I don't agree in it's usage to describe my behavior, but even if you think I am flailing does that somehow make me more likely to be scum?

Because even when town holds crazy beliefs, they actually tend to believe them, and are more willing to explain them, rather than lashing around trying to deflect, obscure with muddy logic, and to OMGUS repeatedly.
It's not like Saru nor I are flailing all over you - we're being very specific, and you can't handle that. Hence the flail. Hence the scum read.

He got no reaction at all, afaik. If he was expecting a certain reaction from me as scum and didn't get it, then that would be a reason to unvote.

He did get a reaction from me - questioning the motive of his vote.
He voted me over it while ducking the question.
Town read for you?
You seem like you have a blind spot for his slot, yeah?

[Thor665]

Do you think he would honestly expect 100% of the scum team to gang jump on a single player?
You know that's weird reasoning.

[Thor665]

Yes, you are being very specifically wrong.

Not really -though I agree you disagree with us.

Correct me if I am wrong: your assertion is that I am scum because I said I would never share a single town read, after claiming to have a town read on iron.

You are wrong, and I have explained the reasoning of my case before.

The problem being, I NEVER said that I wouldn't share a single town read. I specifically said that sharing all information was anti-town, but then I gave several examples of exceptions to that. I actually didn't think it would be necessary to spell out an exception in something I was already doing, but I guess scum can be pedantic and their arguments.

So what is the logic of this exception to your rule?
It's okay to call out a town read to sheep him on a slot that you maybe sorta scumread?
Explain how that logic works within your reasoning to not reveal townreads - because I am missing it.

So what? It's still the correct play to lynch your top scum reads, even if it's unlikely they are all scum.

Picking randomly, you are about 23% likely to find scum in this game.

Picked from a pool of 3, in which 2 are scum, you are 66% likely to hit scum. Even if he (and I, as I share similar reads on you and Saru) are way off and only one of the 3 are actually scum, that is still a 33% chance of hitting scum, significantly above the average.

Well, it's actually a 25% random chance, since you wouldn't pick yourself, yeah?
So you're thinking that when he listed his scumteam what he really meant was "here are three random people [not chosen randomly] of whom I think at least one is probably scum!'?

Oooookay. I don't think he said that, but if you love it, that's swell.
Here are my three [Karnos, Iro, Knight]
Oooh, we better lynch all of them, at least one scum in there with better odds than town would otherwise have! Brilliance!

[Thor665]

It's okay, I'll still pretend to like you

[Thor665]

Why does anyone think Iron is town?

If Karnos is scum, then I think he probably blatantly is.
Otherwise - I have no idea, nor town read.

[Thor665]

As for the rest of the game - I'd say maybe Thor taking advantage of me on Karnos? Been thinking about that ever since Karnos mentioned it. He's basically stolen what I've been saying about Karnos and presented it as his own, perhaps to get me to keep going.

You also copied some of my arguments - that's called both of us having similar issues with the gak Karnos is selling. Unless your theory is the holes in his logic could only be seen by you?

@Grey - why do you not like the wagon on Karnos, it is a good wagon.

@Mod - V/LA till Sunday the 23rd

[Thor665]

So it's okay to reveal any number of townreads - allowing scum to know who people townread - as long as you don't reveal 'all' town reads, because this will not allow them to know who people townread?

[Thor665]

@Karnos - you're selling, I'm not buying.

[Thor665]

Town: Iron, Grey, Nero,
Lean Town: Alpaca
Null: LmK, Penguin,

Thor665

, malpascp
Scum lean:

You [Karnos]

, Lowell
Scum:

Saru

, arundy

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

I'm almost 100% on Thor being scum here. His push on Karnos is all kinds of bad, and I don't see how he doesn't see it.

Well, you said I was utterly copying you, so this already feels awkward - but what is bad about it?
I see you citing you were emotional, but I'll note that a lot of your emotional gak I expressly didn't cite as scummy.
What I cited as scummy, is scummy. How is it not?

Ugh...I hate agreeing with Iron and I feel icky voting with karnos.

VOTE: Saru

Then...don't?

Also, just noticed: Thor said in 387 that the argument between Karnos and I was essentially white noise, so then why is Thor contributing to that white noise immediately afterwards? It doesn't add up.

Read that post more closely, bucko.

You'll note that I ask you to drop your emotionally charged things and *focus on what Karnos is doing that is actually scummy*.
In other words, I was saying calm down, drop the noise, and focus on the good stuff.

Yeah, how hypocritical of me to then attack Karnos afterwards...

@Thor: your wagon consists of you yelling at Karnos over meaningless crap until he inevitably contradicts himself and then calling him a hypocrite. Wow, you can out-debate Karnos. That's very meaningful.

Your timeline is off there - He contradicted himself prior to me engaging him in a debate.
What was meaningless that I attacked hi/yelled at him over?

Why would I sheep your vote, especially when you stole all your arguments from Saru~

Just like with Saru - I would happily ask you to back up this claim.
It's not true.
If one/both of you would promise to sheep me - I'd happily disprove it for you.

But seriously, what's scummy there?

The scumminess is his vote - he doesn't actually claim to scumread my slot, yet when questioned on an opportunistic vote move outs a town read (an action he describes as anti-town) to justify his actions. So he's opportunistic, and playing how he claims bad town play to justify the opportunism - and his defense for this is that revealing town reads is now only bad in his theory of play if you reveal "all" of yourtown reads - yet if you read why he says doing this is bad, it's blatantly obvious that has nothing to do with why he thinks the play is bad -which makes it a lie, which makes his vote opportunistic scum pushing an easy slot.

How do you see none of that as as scummy?

@Karnos - you're selling, I'm not buying.

I wouldn't expect anyalignment!Thor to be convinced by anything I post, so this isn't shocking.

Fixed.
Basically you're complaining that I disagree while not addressing my disagreements.

{Thor, Saru, Nero} Are the scum, but please lynch Thor first, his flip is the basis for where I am drawing the majority of my associations.

So basically I'm scum because (?) and two people I have indicated are town are scum because I indicated they are town.
Also I'm only talking about Karnos - but you're able to associate me with other players, including Nero who isn't even in the Karnos discussion.
I'm missing something here, right? What is it?

[Thor665]

Could you explain how these three reads interact?

You are a null read since I haven't really read you to get an idea on where you stand.
Saru was scum because I didn't think he was game solving and his style was different than a previous town game of his. Now just a scum lean.
Karnos was leaning scum because of a few bad posts. As of recent events he is back to null.

Do you expect any of your reads to semi-solidify at any point, and if so when?

[Thor665]

I agree with you on Nero town.
I think a Grey town read is rather foolhardy, though I have no issue with treating him like town for the current moment.
Can you explain why Iro is a town read for you? I find his interactions with me as regards Tracer to be really questionable on multiple levels - why did you like all of that?

[Thor665]

Unvote: Karnos
Vote: malpascp

Bah and Baa I suppose.

[Thor665]

I feel like mal just needs to replace out. He's got that whole 'indefinite V/La' thing going on. We are essentially voting this guy right now due to him being active on site, but not posting on the thread. Do we really gain anything from lynching him (unless he is scum ofc).

We get the same info as any other lynch.

Like right now I am leaning invest Thor/Saru, Prot Nero/Ice, and killing any of the lurkers.

Make it a kill Karnos and drop Saru for PP or Grey and I'm good with this.

Mal vote is garbage. Would lynch Thor for his response post. Would lynch Saru in general.

So my response post is so bad as to need a call out, and Saru is scum for the brilliant case of "in general" and you're going to stick on Saru as opposed to coming at me?
Chicken or scum - whassup?
You're not trying to sort me - what are you playing?

[Thor665]

I am actively aware of Mal's activity elsewhere.
Mal wagon is fine and dandy - so is Nero.
Your cases are pretty soft - and I'm not sheeping you.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but your soft cases are softer than that.
The case on Malp is - he's a lurker who is active lurking in this game alone.
The case on Nero from you is - I disagree with his reads so Malp must be town, let's shift the wagon.

[Thor665]

Well, except we won't get a claim, reads, or a defense from him.

We will clearly never get reads from him - he is actively choosing to play that way and that is a fact.
There is no defense for what he is doing short of claiming that he is a bad player who should replace out.
I will agree we won't get a claim.

Or worse- he comes back, does give a valid claim/defense, and we are scrambling to find a good lynch in the last 10 hours of the day.

I think it's too late for a good push on mal. He could be scum lurking, he could also be town lurking. No need to push it so hard today.

I disagree - it is the perfect day to do that -especially if you think he is town or a PR.

[Thor665]

See you are just being silly. Going on V/LA once doesn't prove a player will be V/LA forever.

You mean like his solid activity before going on v/la?

You yourself went V/LA for the last 4 days, which would have been until the end of day 1 if we didn't get a deadline extension. Maybe we should lynch you?

If I posted elsewhere during my v/la but not here - I would agree that lynching me over that makes a lot of sense.
Apples to apples, not apples to oranges buddy.

You also came into the game and faced a wagon on the tracer slot that was largely built upon the case that tracer was lurking scum. You called that case weak because tracer eventually replaced out. Shouldn't you be willing to wait and see if mal gets replaced out?

How is he going to get replaced out in your theory world?

So you are saying it's perfect to push mal and get a last minuted claim if he is a town power role? What side are you on?

The one looking to sort slots and scumhunt.
The reverse of your complaint towards me is that you are perfectly fine doing absolutely nothing to a slot that is barely here - also known as the exact reason scum lurk as a strategy. Like, if he's scum, you're giving him exactly what he wants. if he's town, you're accepting that he is playing to help scum.
I mean, if you're telling me I could just declare v/la and auto get to lylo - let me know.

[Thor665]

Like - Tracer (who was wagoned for lurk and replaced 12 days ago) has almost twice as many posts as Malp.
And you're okay with this, and find it scummy that I'm not?

[Thor665]

Of Malp's 11 posts - almost half (4) are just discussing his multiple v/las)
One is going "/first"
One is an RVS vote.
One is complaining RVS is over.

I mean, seriously.

[Thor665]

So...potentially FA cleared town?
I'd like to lynch in here; aronagrundy, karnos, ironstove
I think Aronagrundy is probably town.

Vote: Karnoe

Second Day, going the same way

[Thor665]

What part confuses you?

[Thor665]

I didn't say FA was cleared town - that said, a claimed PR followed by a dead Bodyguard certainly suggests the possibility that he is cleared town.

I don't want to lynch probtown.

[Thor665]

Then why am I in your lynchpool?

I'd like to lynch in here; aronagrundy, karnos, ironstove
I think Aronagrundy is probably town.

Then why is she in your lynch list? Also, why is she "probably town"?

@Both - because of the tail end of the wagon.
@Saru - I already explained the town read, what part confuses you exactly? Do I just need to link my old answer for you, or what?

wait, but how does this change the fact that he could still be lying

It also doesn't change the fact that he could not be lying.
I don't get this disagreement.

[Thor665]

@Saru - actually I misunderstood your question.
The answer for Arongundy is pretty much post 710 - but that is predicated on an awareness of my own alignment, so it won't help you.

[Thor665]

That drops FA in my town meter, but then sorta bumps him up again albeit not as high - it's weird.
Means Grey was killed straight up, probably though.

[Thor665]

What would a specific claim really get us at this point? If you think he's lying, a specific claim won't make his claim sound more real, will it?
I would say he should full claim if he's put to L-1 with a hammer intent, otherwise I don't get the point.

[Thor665]

@PP - I fail to see a world where a claim of Jailer, Cop, Tracker, et al will translate to giving us better insight into the setup though barring a massclaim.
I mean, in a grand scheme of negative, the best I see for him in delaying a claim is if he is scum, and looking to fakeclaim, but wants to have some other role reveals to back his play. He's claiming a block though, which is already a fair bit of info, and I don't see value in him claiming unless a fair shake of people actually think he's scum. Him claiming for the sake of claiming is totally meh.

[Thor665]

So why didn't a claimed PR die and an unclaimed did? Do you think Grey guarded FA?

I did think that until FA claimed info that made that situation opposite.
However his roleblock claim still works within the rather simple narrative of scum roleblocking the suspect townie PR.
I may be wrong - sure, but I don't think I am, and none of that has any bearing on getting him to claim at this second.

@thor: how are you reading saru?

Oh man;

By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

I owe Karnos an apology - apparently that does work to utterly occlude my read and opinion.

I'mma go with 'have obviously been reading him as town for some time now - albeit apparently doing so in a manner so secretive that no one noticed'.

And it's also interesting to note that while the wagon on me built up, Thor never really attempted to derail it or stick up for me.

As long as we ignore me saying the wagon was dumb or asking people to unvote you - yeah, I didn't touch it.

For all the town read he gives me, I found it odd how Thor stayed his hand in coming to my aid. Even a simple "hey guys, Saru probably isn't scum because X Y Z" would have sufficed. Like he's low-key ok with me being lynched, although he town reads me.

You mean defense like this?

So my response post is so bad as to need a call out, and Saru is scum for the brilliant case of "in general" and you're going to stick on Saru as opposed to coming at me?

Or this?

Like right now I am leaning invest Thor/Saru, Prot Nero/Ice, and killing any of the lurkers.

Make it a kill Karnos and drop Saru for PP or Grey and I'm good with this.

Or this?

Ugh...I hate agreeing with Iron and I feel icky voting with karnos.

VOTE: Saru

Then...don't?

And, while we're at it, you're complainign that I didn't question your push on me - while *still* dodging the question I asked both you and Ice - wherein I asked you to back up what thoughts I "copied" because if I copied your thoughts, then by that same definition you copied mine - which makes your push silly, and I've straight up said as much to you and you refused to engage and throw this dreck at me like it means anything.

I have absolutely called you on your bad case - what the hell are you smoking?

[Thor665]

And also you apparently forgot that I called you out on a misrep too - and again you ducked responding to it, but I guess if we pretend things didn't happen then your issues with me make sense

[Thor665]

Karnos case in a nutshell;

States that townreads should not be revealed so as to hinder scum (does note a handful of reasonable exceptions - like defending a townread from lynch)
Vote moves onto a wagon in an opportunistic manner.
Is asked why - because vote looks opportunistic.
Defends self by claiming he was sheeping a town read (doesn't clarify if actually believes scum read - though later scum reads slot for unassociated things).
Is called on this.
Flails.

I couldn't describe the Saru case for the life of me - I think the theory is that I'm his partner or something, while being accused of both buddying him, and not defending him. Your guess is better than mine. I kind of look forward to if anyone takes you up on the bulletpoint though.

[Thor665]

I just read a series of posts wherein one player explains how I'm not defending him, then another suggests I'm town for defending him.
Sweet Christmas, derps.

@Saru - you're still ducking defending your weak case and now you're acting like I *am* coming at your case, while still ducking it and then still somehow suggesting some weird issue. You weren't this dancy with Karnos, why are you poncing around me while other people are selling this derp buddy thing that you are *also* selling. It's not coming from my direction at all.

[Thor665]

What? I'm not ducking anything or being dancy. Did you read what I said? My case for you had two parts: the Karnos tunnel and the buddying. I clearly said that if I didn't feel you were buddying me, I would still be confused why you're tunneling Karnos when there's no indication he's going to be lynched. Are you just waiting for people to magically hop on the Karnos wagon or something? Serious question.

Your issue is predicated on a belief that I'm not pushing the wagon (wrong) and that no reads will change (debatable) and thus is a meaningless question.

Nice try at being deceptive, Thor. B, C, D occurred first. Then A. As such, there was zero logical reason to include the prior event as a listed exception

because I already did it

. Not the other way around, as you seem to be trying to imply.

Oddly, no matter what order they are done in they still reflect hypocrisy.
So, sure, shuffle them however you care to.

I

I also find it interesting that he calls it an opportunistic wagon, yet he claims to have not read earlier than that point. How does he know it's opportunistic? Maybe there is an AMAZING argument in favor or wagoning tracer on page 11, but Thor just missed it because it came before the point where he started reading?

Funny how you quote me putting things in the "right order" there

If there was an amazing argument - no one ever claimed it existed.
And, oddly, it didn't, and I was right, so...I'm not even sure what point you think you're making here.
In a theory world you got a town PM and made a decent case and didn't do the scummy thing I said you did? Okay, yeah, in that world my push looksbad.
But it's not that world - so why are you talking about it and using it as a scum tell that I'm not living in the make believe story?

[Thor665]

As scum in that situation, I would have just eternally kept up on Karnos (he was the leading wagon, after all) and would have either dismissed Grey or just blatantly link him as a partner to Karnos. I don't see a world in which myself as scum does what I did there given the situation at the time which was vote off Karnos and then move onto Knight/Thor. It doesn't add up, frankly.

I agree with this, and don't think it's WIFOM.

It was only the iron townread and the exception argument that I felt was being copied (although now I see that wasn't the case). Nothing else, to be perfectly clear.

[Thor665]

I'm back. Prodge, if that's necessary. I'd still like to see saru or lmk, but really I haven't been paying attention since the site went down. Will catch up.

Saru is prob town, how is he not?
Is there a case on LMK outside of the lurk?

[Thor665]

Is there a good argument for Alpacas scum?

[Thor665]

Because Aronagrundy, Lowell, Penguin, FA, Saru, and LMK are all voting elsewhere and Nero and Alpaca aren't even voting.
But you should probably repeat your brilliant case of "why isn't he lynched yet!?!" to keep selling the wagon in a totally not scum way.

[Thor665]

Due to interactions, I think it's much more likely Thor is scum than Saru at this point. Scum Thor would be perfectly happy to town read Saru, knowing Saru would flip town. Scum Thor would also be happy with killing GreyICE, who was mainly pressuring Saru.

So Saru is town who I'm buddying, and I'm killing the people who are pressuring him in order to...protect the town mislynch...

[Thor665]

Oh, and I'm bussing my buddy Nero, apparently.
Whoo-hoo.

[Thor665]

Oh, and I'm bussing my buddy Nero, apparently.
Whoo-hoo.

Since when did you scumread me?

I don't - please note the post before I started posting wherein Karnos claims that's what I'm doing.

Is there a good argument for Alpacas scum?

not really. You can read about why I was voting him d1 in my 93. He a lurksack and just

there.

Hie says he's busy with midterms and ok sure. Do you think if Alpaca is scum his scumbuddies would fight against his wagon or lend support?

Tends to depend more on the partner than on Alpaca in my experience.
I don't really bus because I think bussing is dumb scum play - so if Alpaca was my buddy I wouldn't bus him, same as if someone really active and productive were my buddy.
Generally the same would go for someone like, Titus.
Meanwhile there's folks like RC who would probably bus a scumbuddy who had been mechanically declared conf. town.

In a very vague sense, if he's scum, probably a scum is bussing him - there usually is one.

[Thor665]

Later on Thor comes in aggressively trying to build a case on Karnos with Saru, later flips around to Saru

I will agree that I built a case on Karnos.
I don't recall flipping on Saru - in fact I'm pretty sure part of Karnos' issue with me is that I townread Saru, and part of Saru's case on me is that I'm buddying him.
I'm pretty sure at least one of you is insane at that stage.

After mal flips town, nero attempts to pin the mal mislynch on me.

He did not do that.
He was pointing out that Lowell's case wasn't good and explaining why - you then acted like he was attacking you.

[Thor665]

Who do you think I should think were the scum sheeping me on Mal?

Not sure who you're addressing on this.
My answer is, not surprisingly, Karnos.

[Thor665]

Can we just lynch Lowell already? This guy is scum lurk to a T and just straight up ignores any post against him. Dire ISO.

Town apathy is strong at the moment, and is only getting worse.

What makes Lowell scum lurk as opposed to your claim that town is being apathetic?

Not that I would oppose everyone that is active voting someone who isn't.
Like...Karnos

Frankly I'd be happy if you and Stove (and Aron a bit) could all chill jets and be a little more clear on your actual thoughts. I feel like all three of you are thrashing around following pushes of the moment, and I think it's killing wagon analysis and building.

[Thor665]

My advice is to stop trying to discuss logic with him - I spent an entire day trying the same and it failed abysmally. You just need to assess him off the votes and flips.
He clearly can't/won't debate logic, and also clearly does/is faking pure gut play sheathed in pretend logic.

[Thor665]

iron could be scum or just poor town. IDK.

I lean the latter on presumption of Karnos.

[Thor665]

Thor is scum.

He isn't this bad of a player to be town. In other games, town!Thor might have put some pressure on me, but he has never blindly tunneled like this.

This is either scum!Thor or Thor ODed on drugs and lost 50 points of IQ. This isn't the usual town!Thor I have seen before.

Welcome to fake meta or 'I don't give an arse' meta.
I clearly and obviously focus on a single player all the time, have openly argued that it is good play, and explained how it is different than tunneling in multiple games.

What makes Lowell scum lurk as opposed to your claim that town is being apathetic?

Town is being apathetic at the moment, but it really wasn't D1, where Lowell was still being a scum lurk. He's kept up the behavior since D1, in fact. It'd be different if he became a lurk just recently, as that could be chalked up to apathy, but that's not the case.

From my experience with Lowell that may not be as valid a tell as you think, but okay.

Idk I think I was pretty clear as to why I was arguing with saru (which is like what all but one of my posts today have been about). What type of town play are you proposing here?

One where people flip and flop with reasons as opposed to hard reversing reads every few days so no push goes anywhere.

[Thor665]

If he was rereading the thread, why didn't he notice that thor wasn't copying his argument? Something doesn't add up here.

To a degree I was copying his argument.
The problem is, if I was copying him - then he also copied me on multiple occasions, which makes the value of the scumtell flatline pretty quickly.
He doesn't really ever address this despite being asked a few times.

- ironstove is high on my list of interesting persons. I appreciate how he's tried to drive wagons repeatedly and all of them seemed well justified to me.

Could you pick any one of his wagons (he has plenty to choose from) and explain why you like the well justified logic of it?

You are literally parroting me. Please have an original, logical thought.

OH Smurf you. Don't make me tilt or I will GT.

Learn2play.

Based on analyzing post syntax, I presumed tracer was scum due to her posts feeling very fake, thor's entrance was also scummy, however he's managed to become more towny thanks to interactions with saru/aron which made me begin to doubt my reads, however I wanted to stick to my initial read and follow through on it./quote]

Also the ad hominem that nero/thor are using to combo on me, saying I can't/won't discuss logic, that my logic is flawed for scum reading them, etc... I'm making a few assumptions here in my play and there are two scenarios that are playing out i.e.

1. I'm correct in that nero/thor are a scum pair and you're bad and getting in my way

2. I'm wrong and I should adapt by pivoting my vote while trying to gather further information to find other scum and confirm or deny assumption #1.

3. That you have repeatedly avoided defending the logic of your play.

Shoe fits.

I'm kind of intrigued how Penguin just kind of vaguely questioning the logic of the wagon on me has kind of defused a clearly building force. Even from an outside observation point it's pretty clear that is not scum dismantling a bus because they have an excuse, which tends to suggest it is scum avoiding a hard wagon.
I'm not sure how to read it unless maybe Karnos is town.
If Karnos is town I think it makes Iron look significantly like scum. The problem is his babble posts this page feel kind of like town to me. Maybe I'm reading Arongundy wrong? But I don't find Bjj to particularly be spouting brilliance.
My vote stays where it is.
I need about an extra 2 players talking half sense in this thread stat.

[Thor665]

- ironstove is high on my list of interesting persons. I appreciate how he's tried to drive wagons repeatedly and all of them seemed well justified to me.

Could you pick any one of his wagons (he has plenty to choose from) and explain why you like the well justified logic of it?

@bjj


@FA -

[Thor665]

Your definition of opportunism is not moving your vote much?
And your theory that he is faking his pushes is what shows 'justified logic' to you?
And me sheeping Nero is tantamount to a scum case.
Eeeeeh.

You should vote Karnos.

[Thor665]

It's not my definition of opportunism. I think of opportunism more as 'following wagons' than 'leading wagons', although sometimes it can include starting wagons. I think of opportunism as being more passive than active. All of these are fuzzy definitions of course. And ironstove just doesn't strike me as passive, and thus doesn't strike me as opportunistic.

That's a bad definition.
By that definition aren't you being opportunistic by voting me?
Isn't FA (a person you claim as town) being opportunistic on everything?
If town does exactly what you're using as evidence that Iron isn't scum, isn't that kind of an empty logic ball you're holding up?

Please don't get hung up on my 'justified logic' phrase. It was part and parcel of a general observation that I found myself agreeing with ironstove's logic and apparent motivation, and also approving of the way he was going about it, more than disagreeing.

Your agreement of him is based on a presumption of what he's doing though, isn't it?
Shouldn't you have at least asked him 'hey, what was your motivation with these votes?" first before town reading him? Y'know, to verify your presumption was correct?

Your sheeping is just out of character with the rest of your postings. Do you deny that?

Sure.

Can you show me another post (in this game) where you decided to sheep a position for no obvious reason?

Fascinating that you want to restrict it to this game only when making a value call about how I play the game. Why is that?

And here's one;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p8431551
I agree (for no reason, as I don't justify the stance, am sheeping PP's opinion, and also am theoretically attacking the slot) that Karnos isn't over defensive.
So...your move?

Why should I vote Karnos? I have a town lean on him.

You've read the game, I tend to presume you've read my case.
Would you like to explain why my case is bad/why you have a town read on Karnos? You were scum reading him a few posts ago so I'm not sure where that really came from.

[Thor665]

I also went back and looked.
i certainly didn't explain my logic when I voted Malp.

But I explained my stance and defended it multiple times thereafter in very quick succession - so where does your 'empty sheep' issue even come from?

[Thor665]

No, FA has taken fairly agressive action from time to time in this game. Please don't ask me to give you examples, they're in the game, and I'm tired of doing your homework.

I must be misunderstanding the question. If town does the thing that I am saying seems towny, then doesn't that make my evaluation that the actions are towny correct? Because it's being done by town?

No - I'm saying that town does what you're saying Iron doesn't - which is why you're calling him town, even though town blatantly does the thing. Also, frankly, scum do what Iron is doing. Like, when your case is 'he's voting lots of peeps (but I presume fake doing so for pressure)" I don't think it takes much to look like that's an iffy case.

Not really. I prefer to try to deduce motives from what I can read from people's actions when they are not aware of my interest. Because they can posture for me any way they want to if they think I am looking for something; but if I'm looking when they don't know that I am doing so, then I feel that I will be less likely to be fooled by a charade meant to specifically fool me. I am satisfied with what I saw iron do earlier in the thread that I understand his motivations; I don't need him to tell me, and in fact I trust my own observations more than I would his answer to a direct question from me anyway. That being said, sometimes I will ask questions, when I don't feel that I can gather evidence elsewhere. Not necessary in this case though.

So...'gut'.
Ooookay. I'll be ignoring you a lot, unless I decide to lynch you now.

I avoid all meta. I never read older games for anybody and will not do so even when asked to. It's just a personal position I take. It feels too much like homework to have to read other games, and I also prefer to play this game making my own discoveries in the game thread rather than being directed to cherrypicked "evidence" from other games. The ironic thing is ... you'll know this is how I play if you look at my meta (full disclosure - I may have looked at prior games once or twice in the past before I decided to hold myself to a strict no-meta policy, but certainly in the most recent three or four games, which would be half or more than half of the games I've ever played, I have refused to look at meta when asked).

Yeah, meta would be a bother to justify your weak case with, so better ignore it because...well, meta *in one game* is readable, but meta in *more than one game* can't be trusted.
I want to slap whoever started teaching newbs this dreck as sense.

Agreeing with someone and following up with clarifying questions is hardly the same thing as sheeping a bad mislynch vote. Even suggesting that they're the same feels like desperation to find some justification for the bad vote. Yeah I'll keep my vote on you.

Okay, so the goalposts moved to a mislynch vote.
Well...I've only case votes on two players this game, and one hasn't flipped - so by your limitation of the criteria, yes, I will agree there is no counter evidence on votes in this game and this game only that shows I am comfortable sheeping.

Simple: 1. I never scum read Karnos, that's your interpretation of what I wrote. When I post that I don't like what people did, that doesn't mean that I am scum reading them, it means that I don't like what they did and will consider it in the overall body of evidence I use when analyzing that person.

@PP - read just the last quote in this wall and give me your thoughts.
Because I have a second scumread now.
Maybe Karnos will bus?

[Thor665]

@PP That wasn't the right word. I mean I do think BJ is buddyng him but for you I kinda of hate

Then lynch that. If he's scum, good lynch. If he's town, he hurts town. Lynch it. Seriously, dude got me a scum win based off a rage vote. If he's not going to play - and not going to be replaced - lynch it.

like its really goading me into trying to lynch Iron regardless of alignment.

but you can help me remove doubt by voting for scum.

vote:BJ

Unvote: Karnos
Vote: bjj

I'mma sheep this without logic

[Thor665]

It is tiring arguing with you because you act like any evaluation that anyone

else

makes has to have perfectly airtight justification, but you are free to sheep votes

for awful reasons

and we're all just supposed to accept that as great play.

Okay? I don't think I magically stop applying logic to myself - but run with that if you can.

You also tend to ask questions that feel like the whole purpose is to tire/wear the other player out. I have been observing this from you all game; find the question that takes the minimal effort for you to ask, but the maximal effort for anyone else to respond to. Seems like a strategy designed to exert your will by wearing opponents out.

I would agree with that - I've described my scumhunting methods in the past and this is assuredly part of it.

Nothing about the strategy I described is about gut reaction. I described a metric for evaluating players that is based on looking at the evidence in situ instead of trying to gather evidence through questioning. What about that approach deserves being called making reads by gut reaction?

That you claim you are basing it off your thoughts of what they are doing rather than confirming they are doing what you think - ergo, you are ignoring evidence and the ability to assess evidence, and going with simply your thoughts intentionally ignoring the possibility to confirm/disprove them.

Sorry it's just a personal policy of mine not to read external games. If you think that makes my play weaker, oh well. I come to this site to enjoy myself, and slogging through prior games to look for circumstantial evidence is not my idea of fun and I'm not going to do it. And if you point some cherrypicked content from another game out to me, I could only trust that evidence if I could confirm that it is not contradicted by other evidence from other games. And since like I just said I'm not doing that slogging, I simply cannot rely on anything from exterior games at all.

Says the guy basing his entire concept of my play off one game, and two votes.
When you meet someone for the first time do you think you know everything about them from one meeting, or do you discover new things on subsequent interactions? Your logic is so inherently flawed I'm not even sure why you think it sounds good.

I also do not play alts because I can't be bothered, I never play more than one game at a time, and I always replace into every other game and start from the outset on every other game. It's just the way I roll, dog.

...okay...are you trying to educate me on your meta play? First off, since you think that info from other games is meaningless, why are you doing it? Second off - I didn't ask about your replace in habits, and am not sure what this has to do with anything I've said. Clarify?

[Thor665]

You can't read me for a hill of beans.

I support your lynch Karnos then assess Thor after flip plan though
You should self vote.

[Thor665]

I agree - me pointing out that you are intentionally hamstringing your ability to read people suggests either reads that shouldn't be trusted or a scum intentionally trying to defend a bad proposition.
You figured me out.
Shame you can't figure out how to call me wrong though.

Your evidence that you do strict criteria is not supported in this game and is thus meaningless, right?
I'm more than willing to believe you have strict criteria - as long as you admit it's hamstringing your ability to assess people or that it's scummily allowing you to avoid evidence that proves your stances clearly wrong.
I literally sheep all the time - I don't care what your magical read on me in this game is, it's easily proven that I do it, do it often, do it as town, and tend to just say 'sheep' when I do it.
But you don't care about that.
That makes you a liability or scum - pick one and get back to me.
Meanwhile I'll be over here, lynching you.

[Thor665]

I will suggest the crazy scenario of - people are scumreading him because of his recent posts (which are scummy)
I will go ahead and presume by you acting agog that you disagree.

Why don't we skip immediately to you discussing your disagreement as opposed to wasting time on setup questions, yeah?
Or do you fully agree with it and are asking for...style...?

[Thor665]

It was super effective.

[Thor665]

Then sheep me for a while.
Your vote on me is unsupported, and bjj looks like scum - it will be super exciting, we could force a claim, maybe lynch him, live the dream, get all the marbles, it would be lovely.
We could also flip on Karnos if you prefer, he is being silly scummy and you're blind if you can't see it.

[Thor665]

Why does Bj look like scum?

Utter lack of logic used to sheep onto big wagons paired with retaliatory attacks and votes.

[Thor665]

BTW fire, do you have any report or clear to provide?

Maybe you should ISO him?

[Thor665]

Well, he's answered that question already.
Discused a theory read based on the question.
And had some people respond to the question.

tl:dr - because you're clearly not reading; he has no results to claim.

Please replace out?

[Thor665]

Due to the, uh, amount of prods and some other factors, these won't count as "official" prods.

@FA - why are you voting me again? Could you give me a quick blurb thought on bjj and Karnos? I'd love to lynch one of them, and would love you to be voting there rather than on me.

[Thor665]

The 'Whatever, you can be town' from Grey in 777 was a reference to his 776 'you' was 'Thor'.
I swear no one in this game reads.

@Nero - some people whine about walls and some go for it, doubt it's a scumtell. His flopping and logic holes are the more valid case.

@Arona - why would he focus on you at this stage as scum considering how you're skating through and there are *multiple* wagons with actual heat on them (and he distinctly chose a side) That looks very much like scum looking to either back up a buddy, or buddy town, or some combination - why would he focus on you? That read is pretty thin.

I don't like the Nero wagon, not that that should shock anyone, but I want to be on record for it.
Still like the Bjj wagon.

[Thor665]

I sorted you Thor (As Thor is talking about Mal). Your response to me was crud.
[snip]
You can rearrange my priorities by self voting or claiming scum, feel free.

Oh holy shit though.

I looked at mal's recent posts. Whatever you can be town. This is fake VLA Smurf.

You can both drop the misrep thing - because if it's scummy you're both doing it.
Context.

Now that the Nero wagon is dead, Iron can spaz onto a different wagon until eventually he lands on Karnos or Bjj.

[Thor665]

To be clear the parenthetical in the quote was mine.

[Thor665]

Cripes it is completely obvious that every statement there is about Mal, not you.

Okay, you're clearly wrong, but let's use small words.

If he's claiming the Mal vote is a policy lynch.
Why is he calling his V/LA "fake" as opposed to complaining that he's just not posting?
He is claiming town is faking being unable to post...?
That makes sense to you?

[Thor665]

If your answer is 'yes' then my vote just became policy as well as a scum read.

[Thor665]

So not caring whether or not Mal is town or scum, just caring whether or not Mal is ignoring this game while posting elsewhere, is a policy lynch.

He doesn't care that Mal is ignoring the game.
He cares that he's *fake* ignoring the game.
At least that's what he said, unless you're suggesting he was lying.

You can believe whatever you like, I'll be over here lynching you.

[Thor665]

I dunno - if this isn't fake it might really explain the scum vibes I'm getting off Bjj for his logic.
I remember loathing him in our last game together...I need to look at that methinks.

[Thor665]

That was actually the game where Espeo and Shinobi derp lynched me with newb help.
Most of my distaste was because bji was rude to me.
In post game I thought he had good logic and badly formed ability to exert pressure.

Vote stands.

[Thor665]

Well, 'okay' logic to be precise, but at least not stomach churning logic.

[Thor665]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=60650

[Thor665]

I was unamused.

[Thor665]

But he did focus on me. He literally said in his catchup post that I was his only scumread.

In one of his temporary catchup posts - yes he did.
Then, as he saw the battle lines, he changed that viewpoint rather abruptly.
This still doesn't actually address the raised question of why you think scum would *not* focus on other available mislynches.
Also, if you seriously believe that he did focus on you (which I don't) - he's doing the thing you said scum would do, so...?

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

@Bji - and you've seen me derp run up on no case before.
Same verse, different alignment?
Yeah, not buying you believe that.

[Thor665]

Yes Thor I mislynched you in our only other game together. But I've already stated numerous times that I'm not going to let other games influence my decision making in this game.

And the scum claims keep coming.

[Thor665]

It is blatantly obvious you're going to vote me eventually.
What I'm trying to point out to everyone is how you're aware this is a bad wagon - and your avoiding of it is a scum plot.

[Thor665]

What plot anyway? What do you think I could possibly gain by "avoiding" a vote I have already expressed willingness to make?

I didn't say you were trying to avoid the vote.
I said you were trying to ignore evidence.

[Thor665]

What 'evidence'? I don't think you know what that word means.

Do you even lift?

Here's a fun game for you to show my evidence; describe the case on me in three sentences or less.
I'll wait.
For nothing.
Then you'll claim there is no evidence for my point about how there is no case on me.

[Thor665]

Next let's talk about religion

[Thor665]

Yeah, we should compare it to your and Iron's no case for scumThor.
He ducked my three sentence offer.
You want to take a swing at it, or are you ducking too?

[Thor665]

Because when people can't describe the case in a few sentences - there is no case.
It happens a lot when scum mislynch me.
Just saying

[Thor665]

Thor pushed a hard lynch
he had no legitimacy there
lets lynch him now, friends

If that's the scum case on me - I'm quite sold on my stance on it.

[Thor665]

Just peeking in to give

intent to hammer

.

I actually find the case on me so offensive that I'm going to refuse to claim.
I am a PR - but since you guys don't even have a case, I want to teach you a lesson about what you're doing.

My prediction is scum bji/Karnos at the very least - along with a bunch of town too dense to notice that there isn't actually a reason to think I'm scum outside of the most vague connective hoo-hah type cases.

Hammer away, slappy.

[Thor665]

I'll claim if Iron and Saru describe the case on me - I already know what to expect from Bji, and Karnos gave his "case" so hopefully people can look at that later and understand how bad it is (Thor voted someone....Ooooooh, SCUMMY!)

[Thor665]

I will note that *NEITHER* of Saru or Iron were able to provide a case (and Karnos' case...yeah, seriously now, and oh look, derp empty from Bji).
But some lackwits managed to argue that I was the one being anti town.

Claim: Tracker
FA went nowhere last night

Derpy dee everyone - let's dance in the derp stain of your terribkle play.
Karnos and Bji wagpns accepting flail votes now.

[Thor665]

Karnos+Lowell+Thor ftw

Karnos+Thor scumteam.
...

Okay, so yesterday there was no case on me at all.
Today the case on me is "there can't be two Trackers!"
Not that there is any reason to think that as far as I'm aware, I've been in multiple games with duplicate roles.
So what's the case on me again?

I was roleblocked last night.

I think Bji is still my prefered, though if Math wants to advance his Karnos+Thor theory I'd be happy to "bus"

Vote: bji

@Nero - don't derp, let's do this.

[Thor665]

Probably because of the dead Bodyguard and the fact that his PR claim didn't imply he targeted.
I don't even get your issue there, and assuredly see no hypocrisy or implied lack/too much awareness of anything.

[Thor665]

Above is at Arongundy.

Bji's post is utter tripe - I'll bother to wall smash it if anyone claims they find it to have any quality at all.

[Thor665]

I think I'm just going to have to conclude that scum really was dumb enough to kill the one player most likely to out their fake claiming teammate.

"Oooh, scum was dumb, they killed the Tracker (who they couldn't have known was the Tracker) and revealed themselves"

Drool on that mislynch some more, scum boi.

[Thor665]

Probably because of the dead Bodyguard and the fact that his PR claim didn't imply he targeted.
I don't even get your issue there, and assuredly see no hypocrisy or implied lack/too much awareness of anything.

What do you mean? Most PRs target. It's suspicious for a claimed PR not to target anyone

BP
IC
Mason
Neighbor
Even Night modifier
Loved
Governor
Saint
Roleblocked
Jailed using non-Alien jailer
Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia PR of any tracking type
Non-ninja SK
and on, and on, and on.

So what are you talking about?
I was supposed to auto assume after the death of a Bodyguard that scum had shot a random guy, and that FA was a goon who had sat home?

[Thor665]

@bji: that post of FA's you're referring to was made before grey died. Honestly what were the odds from scum's perspective that FA would flip tracker?

Also pretty much everyone townread FA last time I checked so maybe they killed him because of that?

Seems like any discussion beyond that is only in scum's interest as it gives them more info for their NK, and anything we say today beyond Thor's lynch can wait until tomorrow can't it?

well unless something happens to the nk we lose a townie so isn't that reason enough to not lynch Thor right off?

And some people start posting sense - shock.

[Thor665]

That's not the point. The point is that Grey died and was revealed as bodyguard.

From that evidence, I had already concluded that FA was likely the tracker. Why couldn't scum see the same thing? Well I guess they didn't because they derp killed the one player who could out their fake claiming teammate.

If this town, lynches me, while this is alive, then it deserves to lose in a rain of hellfire and scum openly claiming to be scum while rolling them all into a neat little ball.

[Thor665]

Well, my reads are in the thread - good luck with that.

[Thor665]

I still can't believe that town saru and town nero let Thor escape with a no lynch. Come on! Even if you think he is town, he is obvious lynchbait the rest of the game, you don't just give scum a free night kill, you go ahead and reluctantly vote and hammer! Blah.

The idea of lynching a potentially town tracker b/c he would be lynchbait is a horrible idea.

I agree with this - I was Schrodinger's scum, and the quality of lynching me versus no lynching me could not be assessed properly till after lynching me.
If I'd flipped town people would be justly complaining of them derp hammering a town read who was a PR and it would have painted them scummier and hurt town's chances.

[Thor665]

To Thor & Nero:

So scum who claim tracker always get a free ride in your games?

Hello straw man

But, in a general sense, if I null read a lynch, and said lynch claims a useful PR, and it is not mylo or lylo - yeah, that gets a pass from me.
If I town read a slot, unless the claim is actually scummy - I also give it a pass.
If I scum read a slot, unless the claim is very provable - I do not give it a pass.

Do you operate under a different scheme than that and want to debate pros/cons of a given method?

I'd bet overall you would do a lot better lynching last minute claimers, at least until the meta adjusts.

I fail to see particular logic in that - the timing of a claim is only suspect compared to the timing of the wagon. I had a last minute wagon on me so regardless of my alignment my claim was going to come late also, to be perfectly frank, I sort of think I wasn't going to be lynched regardless of a claim, and at the time I claimed if I'd been more awake and realized it was last minute I would have expressly not claimed just to leave more options open.

[Thor665]

Which of my three lynch statements do you disagree with as a pro-town habit?

[Thor665]

I have five bucks on 'lurking due to being a PR' as the answer

[Thor665]

I'd actually tend to suggest that since he flaked, it shows it wasn't a strategy - but, yeah, I agree with your point.