Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[Lowell]

Wait, so you think Karnos is town?

Recent exchanges notwithstanding, yes, I do.

[karnos]

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden . I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

So you think my strategy is flawed, but you are following it anyway? That would be anti-town from your point of view.

[Thor665]

Explains vote on me via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Done and done.

[Thor665]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

Why would scum scared of sticking their necks out note a scumread?
Wouldn't the appropriate play be a soft white knight? Like 'I'm not sure about the Karnos case' or something like that?

As to my reads, currently I have expressed scum on you and Iro though I have said your scum flip would pretty much auto town Iro for me. [sarcasm]By dint of my agreeing and supporting Saru thus far, I think scum are incapable of figuring out my read on him, so I'll keep it hidden [/sarcasm]. I don't have any other particular reads at this point.

So you think my strategy is flawed, but you are following it anyway? That would be anti-town from your point of view.

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

[karnos]

If scum can't figure out confirmed town and obvious null read lurkers and then look at scum reads to not be able to figure out town reads - then I think town has less things to worry about then stating their town reads.

I'm tired of the walls, but I want to respond to this point because it's such BS.

So you think scum can figure out who is town-read without read lists easily enough, but you think town are too dumb to figure out the same?

Why is it pro-town to share town reads if players can figure out town reads so easily anyway?

Or, if you think scum can figure out town reads but town players can't, why do you think players lose several dozen points of IQ when they roll town?


In truth, I think the opposite is generally true. Scum already know who is town! They start with perfect information on that, they don't need to analyze posts as much as town. town are trying to figure out who is scum, and in that process develop some useful town reads. But when it comes time to pick a night kill, scum love nothing mroe than nice organized lists that they can look at and compare to figure out the best kill target.

[Lowell]

There ought to be a better wagon on Lmk right now. I don't know if he's protecting karnos-buddy or trying to stay off the karnos wagon when he flips town, but either way this is scummy as hell. Come join me on lmk, everyone.

Isn't the logic for LMK scum here based on requiring Karnos to be scum (and, probably the more valuable scum). So why advocate LMK as opposed to moving to Karnos?

The point is he doesn't want to stick his neck out in any way, and has taken pains not to do so. Scum don't want to be held accountable for townwagons, but they also don't want to lynch teammates. So either way lmk saying "karnos is scummy" and then voting someone with no votes is suspicious.

Why would scum scared of sticking their necks out note a scumread?
Wouldn't the appropriate play be a soft white knight? Like 'I'm not sure about the Karnos case' or something like that?

This is effectively what he's doing, right? That's my point. He's not on the wagon but he's saying he supports it. He's trying to hedge.

[karnos]

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

The tags don't change shit. You still aren't sharing reads, which from my understanding is something Thor doesn't believe is pro-town.

As a joke or not, why are you acting anti-town?

[Foxbird]

Votecount 1.12

AlpacaAlpaca

(1) - malpascp

Thor665

(4) - ironstove, cmitc1, karnos, Knighty Knight

LmkGuy

(1) - Lowell

Lowell

(1) - PenguinPower

karnos

(3) - Nero Cain, Saru, Thor665

PenguinPower

(1) - aronagrundy

Knighty Knight

(1) - LmkGuy

Not Voting

(1) - AlpacaAlpaca

With

13

players eligible to vote, it’s

7

to lynch!

Day 1 will end in

(expired on 2016-10-24 15:08:49).

Mod Notes:

PenguinPower is V/LA until October 17th.

[Thor665]

So you think scum can figure out who is town-read without read lists easily enough, but you think town are too dumb to figure out the same?

I don't think they are.
I just don't see the point of making them spend the extra few moments doing so for the gain of obligating scum to the same.
I'm still open to seeing that game you had as scum where you couldn't figure out town reads.

This is effectively what he's doing, right? That's my point. He's not on the wagon but he's saying he supports it. He's trying to hedge.

No, he's calling a (presumed town) read scum - that defeats some of the purpose of not being on the wagon.
His action does make sense if Karnos is scum though and he is scum.
But that's not what you're saying, right?

My bad, I left out the tags - edited them back in to help you.

The tags don't change shit. You still aren't sharing reads, which from my understanding is something Thor doesn't believe is pro-town.

As a joke or not, why are you acting anti-town?

Maybe I overestimated your grasp of sarcasm, or underestimated my ability to make a joke?

[ironstove]

Karnos coming off as mafia in the last page + this page.

That whole post about explaining how saru misunderstood his gameplay then the outright contradiction that he's developing a new meta rather than continue the original route of argument on his past scum game is very hilarious, actually.

VOTE: Karnos

So interesting observation on lmkguy, we can explore further after we flip karnos and see what's under the hood.

[karnos]

Why are you putting OMGUS in quotes?

Can you re-phrase your case on me without mentioning the fact that I am voting your slot? I don't think so.

Explains the vote he is making

via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right.

Done and done.

So your idea of a case without mentioning the vote on you is to just mention that I am making a vote and leave out the fact that it is a vote on your slot. I see you are very jokey today. Do you have any serious answers or are you now willing to admit it's obvious a case of OMGUS?

[karnos]

Maybe I overestimated your grasp of sarcasm, or underestimated my ability to make a joke?

I guess you are just scum.

The point is you were asked to provide reads. A joke isn't reads. Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads + my vote on your slot. But here you are using sarcasm and joking instead of offering reads.

You are the one who is saying sharing reads is a good thing and yet you are not doing that.

[Thor665]

Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads

I did what in the where now?
I happily disagree that it is pro town, but I never said it made you scummy.
I said the concept that you're claiming it is anti-town while performing actions that don't agree with your stated concept of how to play pro-town is scummy.
Functionally I'm calling your hypocrisy scummy.
You're now arguing insane things with me.

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

[karnos]

Your case against me, if I understand it correctly, is my refusal to share reads

I did what in the where now?
I happily disagree that it is pro town, but I never said it made you scummy.
I said the concept that you're claiming it is anti-town while performing actions that don't agree with your stated concept of how to play pro-town is scummy.
Functionally I'm calling your hypocrisy scummy.
You're now arguing insane things with me.

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

402 "Explains the vote he is making via claiming a townread on Iron, then tosses out that townread discussion gak. Yeah, right."

In 402 you said you find me scummy because of 1- voting you, 2- because of my philosophy on sharing town reads.

If it doesn't make me scummy, then why is it your stated case on me? Are you saying you don't find me scummy, but you are voting me anyway? Is that an accidental scum claim?

[karnos]

Ah, I guess you are ignoring 340 and calling me a hypocrite because I shared a town read.

Sorry, nice try but that argument doesn't fly. I am against needlessly sharing town reads, but I will share reads if there is a clear benefit. In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

[ironstove]

@Iro - why the direct dodge of my question about your case on me followed by sheeping onto the wagon I'm currently supporting?

What question are you talking about?

[Saru]

Doesn't this sound ridiculous to anyone else?

MathBlade busing me meant an extra vote on me. My other scum partner was also busing me much of the game. And you STILL failed to get me lynched- in fact you decided I was a good target to recruit as a mason, and you killed yourself trying to recruit me. I guess that is why you are still sore about it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=66834

For the record, MathBlade didn't want me to claim Neapolitan, yet I did because I knew it was a decent play. It saved me from lynch day 1, and every day after. Apparently it fooled you too. Feel free to continue to blame the loss on MathBlade, but saying I did "nothing" that game is just pure ignorance.

If it helps your ego, then sure, you totally helped your team win the game man. Totally. Again, this discussion isn't really relevant to what I'm talking about and just serves as a distraction.

You are really not paying attention. I thought you were town, sore about the loss. How in any way is that me discrediting you as a person?

It's you saying "don't listen to anything Saru has to say about me because his judgement is clouded from a previous game!" Besides that just being a flail argument, that is also an attempt to discredit me, and not arguing against my arguments. It basically tries to invalidate any point I try to make on you with a broad brush.

But the way you have started obsessing over this and trying to defend your obvious lies makes me think that maybe you are scum, and you don't dare admit where you lied. Town!Saru could just say saru for the misteak, I was wrong. Scum!Saru has to won the argument, as wrong as it is, and push it until you get your miss lynch. This is looking like the later.

I know for a fact you're lying here about my meta because from Mini 1800 it should be clear that the latter is more town!Saru. I literally posted like a half a page wall on Dierfire in 1800 and I didn't let down on him until he was lynched. And even when he flipped town, I didn't stop walling on people. As town, I'm pretty damn out there because as scum I'm too scared of being lynched to get into wall arguments with people. My last game as scum is a good example of that. I lurked 24/7 basically.

If it's nonsense why are you so focused on it? Why are you keeping score? Why are you re-reading old games of mine? Are you reading through old games for everyone in the game... 12 players *X games each.. where do you have the time? Or is this just a personal vendetta against me?

Can you flail a little less? Thanks. Point to a post where I said I was reading old games of you? I've not read a single old game of yours. Everything I've been saying when it comes to past things is in reference to 1800, if you haven't noticed, since that's the only game we've played together. So you're either lying or you're so scared to be lynched that you're just typing without thinking. Either way, you're scum.

Yes you can. My question is why just me? If you are legitimately scum hunting, you should be reading through everyone's games or no ones games. Why are you hyper focused on me?

You need to learn how to read properly. Go look at what that "archives" point was responding to.

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

You voted someone by sheeping another person who you thought was town. Nice scum hunting skillz. Also, scum now knows that you town read iron. Good job, you just handed them the game. /sarcasm

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

Funny. What happened to my "personal vendetta?" Guess that argument of yours was BS after all lmfao.

[Saru]

In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

A positive how? This doesn't line up at all with what you've been saying about sharing town reads being a road to victory for scum. You're molding your original stance into something new to avoid being called a hypocrite. Sad.

[karnos]

If it helps your ego, then sure, you totally helped your team win the game man. Totally. Again, this discussion isn't really relevant to what I'm talking about and just serves as a distraction.

LOL, it's not about my ego. Your whole point was you didn't care about losing to me because you didn't think I did anything to cause you to lose. That is, you were trying to make it sound like you have no reason to be bias against me. After changing your story, you now have a reason to be bias. I get the obvious sarcasm, but sarcasm can just be a convenient way for you to avoid answering a hard question truthfully when you know the answer paints you as a liar.

It's you saying

"don't listen to anything Saru has to say about me because his judgement is clouded from a previous game!"

Besides that just being a flail argument, that is also an attempt to discredit me, and not arguing against my arguments. It basically tries to invalidate any point I try to make on you with a broad brush.

What post of mine is that quote from? Don't misrepresent me, don't use quote marks if you are not actually quoting me, that is the same as lying.

I mean sure it is a flail argument, but it's one I didn't make so what is your point?

I know for a fact you're lying here about my meta because from Mini 1800 it should be clear that the latter is more town!Saru. I literally posted like a half a page wall on Dierfire in 1800 and I didn't let down on him until he was lynched. And even when he flipped town, I didn't stop walling on people. As town, I'm pretty damn out there because as scum I'm too scared of being lynched to get into wall arguments with people. My last game as scum is a good example of that. I lurked 24/7 basically.

I'm not claiming anything about your meta. If you are town and you want to win, and you made an obvious error in an accusation, you should realize that the scum read based on an error is leading you astray. It has nothing to do with your meta, it has to do with fucking basic logic. If your initial assumptions are wrong, your result is going to come out wrong as well. The fact that you instead keep trying to twist things around and move your goalposts show that you don't see me as scum because of my refusal to share reads, but instead you just decided I was scum (or an easy miss lynch) and are making up reasons after the fact.

[karnos]

Can you flail a little less? Thanks. Point to a post where I said I was reading old games of you? I've not read a single old game of yours. Everything I've been saying when it comes to past things is in reference to 1800, if you haven't noticed, since that's the only game we've played together. So you're either lying or you're so scared to be lynched that you're just typing without thinking. Either way, you're scum.

You need to learn how to read properly. Go look at what that "archives" point was responding to.

When I said you memorized the whole scumteam, this was your response:
"Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!"

So were you lying then when you implied that you went back to read the game (which means I was right on the money, you did memorize the scum team), or are you lying now, saying you have not read a single old game of mine? Which one is a lie?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

You voted someone by sheeping another person who you thought was town. Nice scum hunting skillz. Also, scum now knows that you town read iron. Good job, you just handed them the game. /sarcasm
[/quote]

More sarcasm. Afraid to take a real stance against my points now, so you have to resort to joking and sarcasm. You can't afford to get caught up in more lies, so don't say a single thing in a serious manner. I got you figured out.

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

Funny. What happened to my "personal vendetta?" Guess that argument of yours was BS after all lmfao.[/quote]

What? Are you now trying to argue that because of being bias against me, you couldn't have rolled scum? how exactly does your personal bias interact with the moderators role & alignment selection process?

It doesn't. You are making an idiotic argument. You are bias, and you might be scum or town, doesn't change that fact.

[karnos]

EBWODP

Can you flail a little less? Thanks. Point to a post where I said I was reading old games of you? I've not read a single old game of yours. Everything I've been saying when it comes to past things is in reference to 1800, if you haven't noticed, since that's the only game we've played together. So you're either lying or you're so scared to be lynched that you're just typing without thinking. Either way, you're scum.

You need to learn how to read properly. Go look at what that "archives" point was responding to.

When I said you memorized the whole scumteam, this was your response:
"Guess what buddy, there are things called archives. You can go back and read games from the past, surprise, I know!"

So were you lying then when you implied that you went back to read the game (which means I was right on the money, you did memorize the scum team), or are you lying now, saying you have not read a single old game of mine? Which one is a lie?

I'm voting someone. Are you reading the tracer/thor slot as town? Why not talk about that if you have issue with my scum hunting?

You voted someone by sheeping another person who you thought was town. Nice scum hunting skillz. Also, scum now knows that you town read iron. Good job, you just handed them the game. /sarcasm

More sarcasm. Afraid to take a real stance against my points now, so you have to resort to joking and sarcasm. You can't afford to get caught up in more lies, so don't say a single thing in a serious manner. I got you figured out.

I don't think sharing town reads is pro-town. That is my stance, period. That doesn't mean I am not scum hunting, quit trying to put lies into my mouth. That is what scum does. You are quickly eroding the bias-town read I had of you and turning it into a malicious-scum read.

Funny. What happened to my "personal vendetta?" Guess that argument of yours was BS after all lmfao.

What? Are you now trying to argue that because of being bias against me, you couldn't have rolled scum? how exactly does your personal bias interact with the moderators role & alignment selection process?

It doesn't. You are making an idiotic argument. You are bias, and you might be scum or town, doesn't change that fact.

[karnos]

In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

A positive how?

Let me explain it to you like you are five.

Karnos votes Thor.

Someone asks why.

Karnos says "no reason".

Karnos gets lynched, Karnos flips town.

That is a net negative, in any measure. You can try to twist my words around as much as you want, as long as the town players are smart enough to see through your misrepresentation I don't think I have anything to worry about.

[Saru]

LOL, it's not about my ego. Your whole point was you didn't care about losing to me because you didn't think I did anything to cause you to lose. That is, you were trying to make it sound like you have no reason to be bias against me. After changing your story, you now have a reason to be bias. I get the obvious sarcasm, but sarcasm can just be a convenient way for you to avoid answering a hard question truthfully when you know the answer paints you as a liar.

No. My point is that I don't have any vendetta or bias against you. Like it just doesn't exist and there's no proof you've provided that it exists. You being the scum though, you are just love to twist my words. You keep trying to make it sound like I think your scum from some non-existent bias. Like, again, what is the bias? You're making no sense and 2 people have pointed that out now. Like, why would I have bias because I lost something? I'm clearly scum reading you because I think you're scum. You've done scummy shit. You make it sound like I didn't sleep for weeks or something after I lost 1800. Like I'm traumatized or something. It's fucking hilarious but also sad. Get a real argument besides discrediting, then respond to me.

What post of mine is that quote from? Don't misrepresent me, don't use quote marks if you are not actually quoting me, that is the same as lying.

I mean sure it is a flail argument, but it's one I didn't make so what is your point?

Why do you have to act so oblivious? Clearly it wasn't a quote from you, otherwise I would have quoted the actual post, genius. It's in quotes because it's basically what you're trying to say about me. It's the idea. I apparently have a bias and clouded judgement towards you. Or is that not what you're saying and you've been BS'ing this whole time? Which one is it?

I'm not claiming anything about your meta. If you are town and you want to win, and you made an obvious error in an accusation, you should realize that the scum read based on an error is leading you astray. It has nothing to do with your meta, it has to do with fucking basic logic. If your initial assumptions are wrong, your result is going to come out wrong as well. The fact that you instead keep trying to twist things around and move your goalposts show that you don't see me as scum because of my refusal to share reads, but instead you just decided I was scum (or an easy miss lynch) and are making up reasons after the fact.

You keep talking about me making an error in my judgement of you, but then you say it's because I have a bias. If I have a bias of you no matter what, then does that mean I should never judge you this entire game? I should never town/scum read you because I'm biased? Think about what you're saying. By your logic, no matter what, you'd have to be null for me for the entire game.

And what assumptions have I made that are wrong? That you're not scum hunting? That you're a hypocrite? Have you proven me wrong? No, you haven't.

[Saru]

In the case of voting you and following iron's lead it was a clear case, at least to me, where sharing my town read of him was overall a positive.

A positive how?

Let me explain it to you like you are five.

Karnos votes Thor.

Someone asks why.

Karnos says "no reason".

Karnos gets lynched, Karnos flips town.

That is a net negative, in any measure. You can try to twist my words around as much as you want, as long as the town players are smart enough to see through your misrepresentation I don't think I have anything to worry about.

wtf? So then you disproved yourself in regards to your stance of never sharing town reads, since it was clearly a benefit for you.

Also, the above quote shows to me that you didn't actually have a reason to vote Thor, did you? You had to find one, which was sheeping iron because he was townie. In other words, you don't really think Thor is scum. Just needed a reason to hop onto the biggest wagon at the time.

[Foxbird]

But will she get the pagetop??