Mini Normal 1839 - Game Over!

[aronagrundy]

VOTE: cmitc1

Was cmitc already taken or something

[aronagrundy]

Odds on you being a scum for pushing him so hard so early in the game for no legitimate reason other then you "having a gut scumread" which is a 50/50 true or false (basically a good way to justify an illegitimate reason).

TL;DR you don't really a good reason to push alpaca so hard

VOTE: knighty knight

We need to get out of rvs somehow

[aronagrundy]

VOTE: penguin

Someone literally was at L-1 so why are you acting like we're in RVS?

[aronagrundy]

Oooh, someone was at L-1 with an intent to hammer! We must be out of RVS!

Wait, what case or serious vote was presented?

Well by the time this game got to page 4 there were enough talk about reads and suspicions going on that a completely isolated random vote just stood out to me. It stood out to me so I pursued that weird feeling.

Also I disagree re: L-1 that just because it's a joke wagon (started by someone with a legtit scumread on alpaca btw) to most doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken seriously.

[aronagrundy]

I have a gut scumread on you and I wanted to see how you reacted under pressure.

[aronagrundy]

Lulz. Dude started the wagon and followed it with he hated the avatar. You're so serious.

So was nero just trolling when he said stuff like

odds on Iron/Lowell being an AlpacaAlpaca buddy?

how do you know Alpaca will flip town?

I mean feel free to tell me if I'm crazy everyone but nero always seemed serious to me.

[aronagrundy]

Do you know what RVS means?

Oh, you're crazy.

Can't people be serious in RVS?

[aronagrundy]

Then when does RVS stop?

[aronagrundy]

Then when does RVS stop?

When serious votes start.

now we're just going in circles. nero seemed serious to me.

[aronagrundy]

I've been arguing with pp about nero for like the entirety of page 5 where have you been

[aronagrundy]

Which parts?

[aronagrundy]

Does anyone have thoughts on my 91?

I see why you think cmitc's unvote was scummy but I think it could have been shedding his RVS vote too, since his post before he unvoted looked like this:

Penguin nervously unvoting because he doesn't want to see his partner who is a mafia PR getting lynched.

PenguinPower? More like PenguinPanic

dontcha think that is a little unlikely?

...


so, since we are getting into the game, lets start picking up some more productive conversation, like

based on the start of the game, are you getting any town leans on anybody? right now, I have a town lean on iron due to that eh accusation.

where he wants to move into "more productive conversation."

That being said, this post actually popped out to me more once I scrolled up to reread the page. Discussing town reads doesn't produce as much conversation as discussing/pushing scumreads. Seems like an attempt at faking actual scumhunting.

[aronagrundy]

lurking in his PT

Day chat is awesome, right? Tell him the joke I just told you.

Explain this

[aronagrundy]

Is this your first game?

No I was asking if you're scumreading nero

[aronagrundy]

about as obvious to me as nero's vote on alpaca was to you tbh

[aronagrundy]

Haha.

VOTE: aronagrundy

This is scum.

why can't I make jokes now?

[aronagrundy]

Like, me I can understand, people always want to kill me, but EHHHHHHHH. Also cmitc's 78 appears to be more weak/bad town play rather than fake scum hunting as you're putting it, and it seems like you're really reaching.

I personally don't like the tone arun has taken in this game, appears very 'fake' and 'artificial', trying to sound like a towny player when in actuality is scum, not really creating conflict with other players, avoiding pressure, and overall I don't like the reactions I'm getting.

Seems like a very distanced scum trying to coast cleanly through the game, so I am asking that town make this guy the lynch for D1.

How haven't I been causing conflict? Did you miss my argument with pp?

[aronagrundy]

How haven't I been causing conflict? Did you miss my argument with pp?

The argument you tried to blow off as a joke?

When did I do this?

[aronagrundy]

Ok so at this point I have a town lean on Lmk and Nero and a scum lean on Aron, Saru and Tracer

You have a scumread on someone who's only posted once!

[aronagrundy]

That should be a question mark not an exclamation point lol

[aronagrundy]

@karnos

151 Are you acting dumb on purpose?

The joke I was talking about was this post:

about as obvious to me as nero's vote on alpaca was to you tbh

Which was just me snarking at pp (he voted me immediately after making that post, which is why I posted 151). I don't see how you're reading it as me passing off my entire argument with him as a joke.

[aronagrundy]

@cmitc

What about Tracer or Aron?

tracer has kinda been inactive, so its kinda null, maybe a slight scum if she dose not pick things up sooner or later.

Aron has been a bit fluffy lately, but she did accuse me with a kinda crazy.

What was so crazy about what I said (that asking for townreads wasn't productive and could be fake scumhunting)? What value do you see in everyone discussing who they think is town?

@alpaca

Pretty sure Iron is the biggest bandwagon aside from me who I am still deciding on and if I were trying to scumread all lurkers half of us haven't even posted more than 10 times, what I am trying to judge is content and Saru has produced zero and Tracer hasn't done much but say "I want to vote many people" with 0 explanation. Aron has already confused himself, he never further explores Cmit, after having talked about actually progressing the game and stimualting conversations he talked a lot about the mechanics of RVS and It looked like he was grasping at straws so very much in post 141. I'd say thats a lot for 8 pages

Well re: RVS considering that I was voting pp for placing an RVS vote in what I was seeing as a game past pure random voting, our discussion was bound to end up comparing our interpretations of what RVS, which involves RVS mechanics. Re: cmitc, once he started posting again (post 172), I was phoneposting quickly before work and during lunch and was only quickly responding to things.

Also, alpaca, if you have a scumread on tracer why aren't you voting her? She only has 2 votes and honestly if you're taking iron's desire to lynch someone 100% seriously I have to question your judgment

[aronagrundy]

I don't like how his reaction to my post was to just dismiss is at crazy (that's a great way to just not respond, which is why I responded to him in my last post) but his response to iron accusing of him of bad town play (to defend it as not bad) makes me think he's newbtown (hypocritical coming from me I know).

[aronagrundy]

Btw, thinking about my current vote on pp: looking over his posts there's a lot of commentary and not a lot of scumhunting, though nero and I did put him on the defensive yesterday so a lot of his content is related to that. I'd like to hear more from him about current events plus a more complete explanation as to why he's voting me (goes for you too, knight). He's a bit of an enigma to me tbh.

I think iron is town. He seems to be driving the game's direction a great deal and attracting attention to himself from page like 2 in a way I wouldn't think scum would do. I think nero is town too for similar reasons (more driving the game than attracting attention like iron tho), moreso in the early game. I like lmk's posts too.

I agree with lowell that knight's vote on me seems opportunistic and I didn't really like his RVS presence--my vote on him in post 52 was actually serious because as far as I could tell he was trying to punish a legit attempt at scumhunting/moving the game out of RVS. alpaca's scumreads seemed really safe too but he elaborated on them at least and I don't have a problem with the rest of his content.

Everyone else hasn't posted much tbh. Tracer seems the worst off out of all of them for just popping in and talking about how much she'd love to vote someone...without actually voting anyone.

[aronagrundy]

I don't have a problem with the pressure tracer is getting but I'd rather vote knight right now.

VOTE: knight

[aronagrundy]

It's not opportunistic voting if it only puts you at 3-4 votes and it takes 7 votes to hammer.......... Please stop using that word, it's tilting me.

Scum isn't just looking for opportunities to lynch, they're looking for opportunities to appear town while not actually contributing to the town.

And what do you think of karnos?

That is an open question to everyone.

His posts imply that he's read the thread thoroughly, but he hasn't really followed through with any of his questions. Which makes it seem like he's staying on the sidelines on purpose.

[aronagrundy]

Evidence for Aronagrundy

Next up is Aronagrundy. Arona's first vote in RVS (7) was Cmitc. Normally this wouldn't mean shit and still probably doesn't, however, if they were scum than they could be trying to disociate from each other right off the bat. Again, this could literally just be a random vote, but it could also be more then that (Illuminati confirmed). Now onto more concrete evidence, cuz I'm all about that.
1. 52 Arona votes me because "We need to get out of rvs somehow" but the post he quoted was me questioning Nero who, again, if they were all scum would make getting out of rvs a cover up for lynch the person questioning my scum partner. Also since this was still in RVS he could get away with it no questions asked.
2. 79 He also seems to be very ancy to lynch people as soon as possible, also possibly switching his vote from me to avoid suspicion later on.
3. 101 Still not sure wtf "It stood out to me so I pursued that weird feeling" means or why you would do it, but it seems like kind of a weird thing to do. Anyways, he mentions that Nero's joke wagon on Alpaca was with legit reasoning and should be taken seriously (Which btw I still don't agree with Nero's reasoning but whatever, I'll get back to that later). Again if they were scum partners they would try to back up eachothers arguments, even if they might not be the most legit.
4. 103 I guess this is an alright reason, but there are better reasons to lead a lynch wagon on someone.
5. 109 Protecting Nero
6. 114 Trying to say Nero's reason was serious, still don't think so, but this could again be trying to protect Nero or himself to get some heat off of him.
7. 127 Playing dumb?
8. 130 Iron saw what I did and now Arona is trying to defend himself while Nero is backing Arona up.

9. 140 Trying to validate Cmitc dropping his vote and then trying to turn on him to (possibly) dissociate Himself from Cmitc.

10. 145 Penguin possible target?
11. 149 Penguin sees Arona as scum as well
12. 151 Trying to play it off as a joke

TLDR of Aronagrundy scum read

Seems overly protective of Nero and Cmitc

(possible scum partners) and is a little to obvious about it.

(removed spoiler tags)

The bolded parts contradict each other. How am I being "overly protective" of cmitc if I'm also turning on him? Also, this post seems to be covering everything before you posted your reads list. Have your reads changed at all?

[aronagrundy]

Work is running late, ill read up tonight

[aronagrundy]

All done and these things stuck out to me:

@lowell: why don't you consider the possibility of knight being newbtown (or newb anything at all)? He's clearly labeled as Townie, and you take this into account when looking at me and cmitc. I'm getting more newbtown vibes from knight in his latest posts and I think he can easily read as confused town.

@pp: ok since you're v/la this is part question part statement since you might not be online to answer this over the next couple of days. Looking over the thread basically every time someone mentions that they suspect him, pp kind of freaks out? He's basically responds by discrediting the character of each person that suspects him by either passing them off as scum (me, lowell) and his tone toward tracer is very dismissive toward her in general. Just looking over his posts he seems so overly defensive and right now I think he's my strongest scumread.

Re: tracer, I don't like how she popped back up to just fight with pp a bit and just hint at actual reasons for her presumed scumread. Not sure how to interpret the replacement request but I think it's NAI.

[aronagrundy]

the best example of what I'm talking about with pp is here:

penguin. Reads similar to LmkGuy, but less so. He spent a lot of time early trying to make jokes and prove his winning personality. He's improved, slightly, perhaps, but still seems to post only when there's a light moment he can pounce on. I also don't like how he egged iron on to hammer alpaca early, only to more or less immediately say how the threat wasn't serious.

Wow...this is a complete misrepresentation of what happened. Except for the joking and winning personality. I definitely do/have that.

Coupled with your IronStove read...Heavens to Betsy if you aren't somewhat scummy.

He brings up the "IronStove read" without elaborating on it at all and immediately scumreads him, then votes him. Not taking into account his current V/LA, after RVS he's mostly just shown up whenever someone calls him scum. I know he's V/LA but it's where my gut's at right now.

VOTE: penguin

[aronagrundy]

Well I still think pp is getting away with way too much but karnos being overly defensive (which is why i voted pp in the first place) in addition to the whole townread debacle give me more than enough reasons to join the wagon.

VOTE: karnos

[aronagrundy]

btw pp when you return I would love a response to my original vote on you

[aronagrundy]

What changed your mind on Karnos?

[aronagrundy]

knight this is what lmk said about you (bolded):

From the people that have been active during those pages, I can see why there are current scum reads on knight and Karnos. Both players have gotten extremely defensive whenever they have been pushed,

For knight, post 326 screams newb scum to me. Trying to say 'look at me! I'm doing stuff!'. After reading this post and going through his ISO, I just get a feeling of fakeness from his posts. Now I get that I am really not one to talk right now, but they try to seem like they are actively contributing, but there is just something off about his posts. I remember when I got my first game as scum and a lot of his posts are the same kinds of thoughts/posts that I made during that scum game. A lot of his reads contain words like 'maybe' or his opinion can be easily swayed either way, leaving options open for changing his scum/town reads as he needs.

Where in the bolded section does he describe you defending yourself as scummy?

Also, why karnos? You don't say a word about him before this post beyond a null read early in the game. If 90% of the arguing is bs then why are you siding with two of the people doing the arguing?

This post sticks out like a sore thumb to me compared to anything else I've seen before in the game. No real reason for voting karnos plus misrepresenting what lmk said.

VOTE: knight
VOTE: knight

[aronagrundy]

lol ok only one of those votes should be there clearly

[aronagrundy]

No it's just the last post lmk made. knight basically tossing out an OMGUS vote prompted me to go back and look at lmk's posts and 381 was the last one he made (and was the one that knight was responding to anyway). It was knight's post that made me change my vote.

I like the karnos wagon but I feel like knight's hop on the wagon is even worse. When he says he'll go after lmk tomorrow (this is all assuming a karnos lynch here) he's giving himself an excuse to post irrelevant content (if karnos flips town) or just jump on the lmk wagon (if karnos flips scum). If the town is 100% set on lynching karnos I'll help out but like I think knight is just coming off terrible here and I can't leave that alone.

[aronagrundy]

Why do you think he's being overly defensive. It looks to me like Thor/Saru are going after him pretty hard and he's responding.

I'll actually agree that it isn't over defensive (or, rather, it is defensive - and it's impossible to be over defensive) but I do think it represents flail.
I'll happily agree he's under pressure, but are you reading his answers and defenses?

That's another way to put it I guess. I'm talking about going so far in your own defense that you go out of your way to discredit the person arguing with you (pp did some of this too just to a lesser degree, which is why I voted him a few pages ago) by saying that their case is based on like some trauma from a game that happened in the past. That's where I got the "overly" part but I think we're just disagreeing on semantics here.

[aronagrundy]

[

btw pp when you return I would love a response to my original vote on you

It was weak.

Good talk.

For real tho, what are your thoughts on me/lowell at the moment? Beyond your original posts where you voted me/him, you didn't really go much further in explaining.

[aronagrundy]

Lol.

Also

@mod: I will be v/la from 8/21 to 8/23

. I'll be back by Sunday night my time, but I'll probably have no internet over the weekend.

I'll post more today/tonight

[aronagrundy]

@saru you said that Thor is copying your logic. But Thor's vote on him started because of karnos's talk on townreads and you voted him because of meta at first. What exactly are you referring to?

[aronagrundy]

Wait strike that I just reread your vote on Karnos and it was about the townread thing but in a more speculative way than Thor,, who was describing more of an inconsistency in his vote. So my question about clarifying your statement on thors logic still stands

[aronagrundy]

wtf type of claim is that fire

[aronagrundy]

Ok I'm back.

Still confused on saru's claim that thor was copying his logic when they were both arguing with karnos. The fact that saru hasn't really given a satisfactory answer is bad. He also seems to have backed away from this claim, saying when he votes thor (662) just that "his push on karnos is all kinds of bad, and then saying in 675 that he was "paranoid that (thor) was buddying me or taking advantage." Like what exactly is thor doing here, saru?

FA's claim is still dumb but so is lynching someone who says they're a PR.

Mal not doing anything is dumb too.

As of now I would be ok with lynching saru or mal.

VOTE: mal

[aronagrundy]

ok but lowell literally said that saru was a null read and this was before the deadline extension

[aronagrundy]

investigate iron/lowell, protect nero, kill mal if he doesn't replace out

[aronagrundy]

@lmk because at the time I think the deadline was really close and a no lynch would be even worse

[aronagrundy]

Well, not really close, but it was 36 hours away and a few players were v/la

[aronagrundy]

Then why am I in your lynchpool?

Also remember when saru disappeared after everyone hopped off his wagon? Good times.

VOTE: saru

[aronagrundy]

Ok I'm back.

Still confused on saru's claim that thor was copying his logic when they were both arguing with karnos. The fact that saru hasn't really given a satisfactory answer is bad. He also seems to have backed away from this claim, saying when he votes thor (662) just that "his push on karnos is all kinds of bad, and then saying in 675 that he was "paranoid that (thor) was buddying me or taking advantage."

Like what exactly is thor doing here, saru?

FA's claim is still dumb but so is lynching someone who says they're a PR.

Mal not doing anything is dumb too.

As of now I would be ok with lynching saru or mal.

VOTE: mal

plz respond to the bolded saru

[aronagrundy]

Nothing, that's the point. He's been about tunneling Karnos since he first replaced in. It's almost as bad as Grey who had his head up his ass about wanting to lynch me. Let me ask you this: what do you think about Thor's play with Karnos and what do you think about both of them in general?

Ok first of all why you using tunneling as a reason for your scumread when you yourself said Grey did the same thing? Also my original bolded question was in reference to you saying that thor is using your logic. What logic? When? I mentioned before that you have been shying away from this claim.

I think karnos is town, mostly because I think you're scum. I don't think two scumbuddies go through an argument like you two did. While I don't like the whole deal with the hypocrisy about townreads, I don't like your move onto thor and I still don't like how you're continuing it.

As for thor, I'm leaning scum but not as strongly as you. I think he harped too much on karnos and I actually don't like the timing of his flip onto the mal wagon very much. I'm not sure how well you and him work together as a scumteam, but looking over his iso he's been very quiet as to how he reads you at the moment (I think in post 756 he implies you're null/town but who knows) and fairly quiet (almost dismissive actually) about your case on him so I don't think him trying to distance himself from you is out of the question.

[aronagrundy]

@thor: how are you reading saru?

[aronagrundy]

VOTE: Lmkguy
I feel like I am back in RVS

Why lmk?

[aronagrundy]

Right, and my vote's on you because I want to see you get lynched. I'm not attacking you on your logic (minus the tunneling thing), I'm attacking you for not backing up any of your claims. That quote you provided doesn't help, because I wanted actual examples not a general claim. Thor was the one that brought up that karnos had already shared a townread despite saying he wasn't going to do so, not you iirc.

You could be trying to lynch town!thor, or trying to bus!thor, but I'm going to vote you for an empty case regardless. Like I said, I'm much more unsure about thor, but I'm going with my strongest scumread right now, which is you.

[aronagrundy]

That being said, I agree that if you flip town, then thor's interactions with you d1 look like a failed buddy attempt.

[aronagrundy]

actually no that doesn't feel right. Clearly he would have failed at buddying you if you wanted him dead. What would being dismissive of you even accomplish? If he was so caught up on getting you to trust him, he would want to respond.

[aronagrundy]

Ok let me rephrase then: I feel confident about my scumread on you. I do not feel as confident about thor. I think you're caught on the phrase "more unsure."

[aronagrundy]

I actually don't get what you take an issue with. You seem to agree that the tunnel on Karnos is foolish("[Thor] harped too much on Karnos"), but give me a hard time because I give Thor a hard time about that same exact tunnel. Forget for a second about the whole "copying me" point I brought up. Strip that away, and what's your actual issue with my take on Thor's insistence to lynch Karnos? In your own view, it should be nothing, yes? If there is (

besides the copying argument

), then let me know, because you've lost me now.

Uh this is kind of a large part of your case on him that you are refusing to address so I'm not going to ignore it. I'll devote a post to it.

I just don't see how my other argument about the buddying/copying would make me scum more than it could possibly make Thor scum for a tunnel, you, yourself don't like. Like your whole thought process confuses me. Even if I had never said Thor was copying me, would you agree he's scummy for harping on Karnos?

Not saying it makes you scum more. Yes I probably would still lean scum because of the push on karnos and the quick switch to mal

[aronagrundy]

Ok saru here's my problem with your push on thor. I'm just going through your posts on it. In spoiler tags because walls are ugly

Spoiler:

As for the rest of the game - I'd say maybe Thor taking advantage of me on Karnos? Been thinking about that ever since Karnos mentioned it. He's basically stolen what I've been saying about Karnos and presented it as his own, perhaps to get me to keep going.

This is the first time you say you're scumreading thor, and it's 100% the copying argument. It's also given under pressure from grey.

No, I thought Karnos was scum for maybe a couple of days. But recently, I've thought about why Thor is basically taking up my argument and trying to use it against Karnos. Like I'm not ego-tistic, upon re-read, I can see me being superficial in my arguments against Karnos. I don't feel great about Karnos, but I feel even worse about Thor right now.

As for what arguments, basically everything. The part about Karnos being hypocritical based on the iron townread and the exception and all that. He's just more articulate with them.

grey asks you to elaborate on what arguments, and you respond vaguely. Like I said as far as I know thor was the first one to bring up the hypocrisy of the iron townread (why he voted him in the first place) so are there even any other examples?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665
I'm almost 100% on Thor being scum here. His push on Karnos is all kinds of bad, and I don't see how he doesn't see it. Like I get the hypocrisy that Karnos is doing(I've pointed it out like 3 times now myself), but it isn't anything damning, and it just feels really nit-picky at this point.

Then you don't bring up the copying argument when you actually vote him, which you only do when the FA wagon starts to die and you get put under pressure again.

Initially I felt Karnos was scum because of what he said about sharing town reads, which felt like an excuse to just not give town reads at all, and then he also said he didn't have any particular scum reads either. So it mainly felt he was just making excuses for not wanting to do anything. It got even worse when he revealed that he read Iron as town and was therefore willing to vote with Iron, which seemed to go against his stated views and exception to those views.

But then Thor came in and he started to make similar or pretty much the same arguments that I was getting at, which made me feel a bit paranoid that he was buddying me or taking advantage. Karnos pointed out this possibility:

There is also a fair chance that between you and Saru one is actually town just being taken advantage of by the scum, but I'm fairly confident that at least one of you is scum

And ever since then I've been somewhat paranoid about Thor. Notice how I don't really push Karnos after that. Usually my arguments are pretty emotional/bad as town, so when I see people agreeing with me, that worries me. It happened with Math buddying me onto Dierfire in 1800.

And basically, now, Thor is just harping on Karnos without much thought about anyone/anything else in the game. His ISO is basically all Karnos.

Upon re-read, I don't think the arguments Thor and I were pushing were really all that great, and for him to be so gung-ho about it is strange. Like, yes, Karnos might have contradicted himself, but I don't really see it being the end all reason to call Karnos scum, as Thor does.

Also, just noticed: Thor said in 387 that the argument between Karnos and I was essentially white noise, so then why is Thor contributing to that white noise immediately afterwards? It doesn't add up.

And then you bring it up again sorta but still don't elaborate on it.

The whole copying thing is just part of why I'm voting you. I don't get your logic but that's not good enough of a reason to vote you. It's the fact that you brought it up under pressure and refused to respond to people asking you to clarify. And then you only actually acted on your scumread of thor once a wagon on you came up. I'm seeing scum that got pushed into a corner and is trying to avoid any more pressure. (the fact that your wagon got replaced with one on a town lurker doesn't help either)

[aronagrundy]

iron can you just explain why you want to lynch thor over saru anyway?

[aronagrundy]

I'm aware but there were legitimate reasons for the mal wagon, he just happened to flip town. Scum would know that he was town, though, and would also know that a mal lynch would give the town almost zero information. I'll actually take back using the mal wagon as a reason against you because I think it was a good move for scum regardless of your alignment.

[aronagrundy]

As to your first point about bringing it up under pressure, it would seem silly for me to do that as scum given the situation. I actually was under no pressure by Grey, because Grey was only pushing me with only 1 vote on me. I couldn't feel pressure from him even if I wanted to. There was no indication I was going to be lynched when Grey was pushing on me or that his push would even lead to my lynch, so me revealing how I was feeling Thor those past couple of days couldn't possibly have anything to do with pressure. It could just be, oh, you know, my actual feelings?

As scum in that situation, I would have just eternally kept up on Karnos (he was the leading wagon, after all) and would have either dismissed Grey or just blatantly link him as a partner to Karnos. I don't see a world in which myself as scum does what I did there given the situation at the time which was vote off Karnos and then move onto Knight/Thor. It doesn't add up, frankly.

You're asking me to clarify the arguments about Karnos, yeah? Thor was the first to bring up the iron townread contradiction(that was my mistake), but even if you take that away, I'm not a happy camper with his push on Karnos, as you also don't seem to be. So if your problem this whole time has been that, then yes, Thor did bring it up first, and I missed that. Still not ok with him though.

And finally, you talk about my wagon being "replaced" by a town lurker. Lowell makes this point as well and I responded to him about this in 811 (which he conveniently ignored and continues to ignore). Do read it.

Paragraph 1: I mean yeah you had one vote but so what? grey came in with you as his strongest scumread.

Paragraph 2: WIFOM

Paragraph 3: covered this

[aronagrundy]

oh shit there were four paragraphs

[aronagrundy]

I mean I covered paragraph 3 already honestly. And honestly was it literally only the iron townread that you're claiming thor copied? You quoted yourself saying it was "everything" yesterday

[aronagrundy]

I'm going to stop posting for the night after this, but the problem is that you kept on deflected from people asking you to clarify the original foundation of your case until like literally now

[aronagrundy]

Prod dodge, will be down to lynch Thor if Saru isn't happening

[aronagrundy]

@thor:

Frankly I'd be happy if you and Stove (and Aron a bit) could all chill jets and be a little more clear on your actual thoughts. I feel like all three of you are thrashing around following pushes of the moment, and I think it's killing wagon analysis and building.

Idk I think I was pretty clear as to why I was arguing with saru (which is like what all but one of my posts today have been about). What type of town play are you proposing here?

@iron:
Where were you when I voted pp for having filler/OMGUSy posts day 1?

[aronagrundy]

Question to the town:

It might be the "all that" that you're bothered by, which is semantics, really. It was only the iron townread and the exception argument that I felt was being copied (although now I see that wasn't the case). Nothing else, to be perfectly clear.

For reference, the first post that saru says he scumreads thor:

As for the rest of the game - I'd say maybe Thor taking advantage of me on Karnos? Been thinking about that ever since Karnos mentioned it. He's basically stolen what I've been saying about Karnos and presented it as his own, perhaps to get me to keep going.

Saru is basically saying his claim that thor was copying his arguments wasn't true. He says this despite saying in his following post:

No, I thought Karnos was scum for maybe a couple of days. But recently, I've thought about why Thor is basically taking up my argument and trying to use it against Karnos.

Like I'm not ego-tistic, upon re-read, I can see me being superficial in my arguments against Karnos. I don't feel great about Karnos, but I feel even worse about Thor right now.

As for what arguments, basically everything. The part about Karnos being hypocritical based on the iron townread and the exception and all that. He's just more articulate with them.

If he was rereading the thread, why didn't he notice that thor wasn't copying his argument? Something doesn't add up here.

[aronagrundy]

FA was a sort of claimed PR and I wasn't really considering pp as scum by the time I joined the mal wagon. I can't really respond to much else you say specifically about me unless you want to give examples.

That said, why are you still discussing knight? He replaced out so he can't really respond to anything you're saying.

[aronagrundy]

Unless the second bullet point was directed to me about my case on saru? The fact that I had to spend part of day 1 and the beginning of day 2 to get info that hurt his case (when he could have just responded day 1 when I first asked him about his stuff on thor) is more worrying than him just having a weak argument.

[aronagrundy]

That said, why are you still discussing knight? He replaced out so he can't really respond to anything you're saying.

whoops, reread the stuff about FA being a pr. Surprised you brought the vote on knight as being bad specifically especially since I think he was brought to L-1.

[aronagrundy]

@saru: My argument is that you felt pressure to give more scumreads after grey showed up and started yelling at you (at that point you really only were saying karnos was scum) and felt the karnos wagon wasn't going to last so you threw out thor with bad reasoning. You hopped on the knight wagon because it showed potential but once FA claimed, you switched to the only other scumread you put out that wasn't karnos, thor. You changed your reasoning to disagreeing with his push on karnos (reasoning that was already said by others) and never referred to your original reasoning, because you knew it didn't hold up. Also yes I think that ignoring people can be a valid strategy for scum because scum benefits from not providing too much information, and sometimes people don't follow up on questions or they're just afterthoughts. Also yes I get you responded to my question right away d2 but you never actually gave examples and it took you until post 885 to actually respond which is why I was saying you were deflecting.

[aronagrundy]

I should clarify, you said thor because he was relatively safe as a target (from the tracer wagon), yes grey asked you for your reads, but literally said "I want to lynch you" before that. Just clarification on me saying "pressure."

[aronagrundy]

Go for it, I wasn't trying to argue with you again until you responded to a post directed at bji

[aronagrundy]

@bji: well I disagree with how you're interpreting what I was doing. What I said is why I voted knight. I agree that FA is basically confirmed town tho.

Re: the mal lynch, yeah I was aware of the risk at the time of he flipped town. Lurking gets more of a gut scum feeling from me tho so I think we'll just have to disagree on the validity of that interpretation. Either way it was Mal or saru and clearly I didn't abandon saru

[aronagrundy]

Fwiw, I'm aware that by voting mal when I did (4/7) I pushed the momentum toward mal, which makes me think that there is definitely scum in (Nero, Thor, FA). I.e. Thor or nero. Unless anyone wants to lynch saru with me I'll go over the ISOs and see who looks worse

[aronagrundy]

investigate iron/lowell, protect nero, kill mal if he doesn't replace out

Not interested in gathering any more info on the person who you previously spent most of the day voting for. Just not a consistent position.

Just wanted to respond, that post was in response to FA asking what he should do n1. By then FA had already claimed so I thought he was town. And it's not like I can ask see to investigate themselves lol

[aronagrundy]

@lowell: not going to what for lmk's replacement?

@iron: can you clarify your vote on saru? As of now it's just us voting him, but you've consistently scumread me. Why vote saru with me?

[aronagrundy]

Sorry for not posting much, weird weekend.

I'm going to look at nero more closely because I'm townreading the people on his wagon and my townread on nero is mostly a holdover from rvs day 1

[aronagrundy]

@nero

Him trying to start a wagon on me and dropping it as soon as I responded, mostly. I feel like I'm a pretty easy target for a scum to replace in and try to gain towncred by attacking (I feel like I'm mostly read as scum/null, and no one's gone after me really) and abandoning the push seemed natural.

[aronagrundy]

lmk is getting replaced right?

[aronagrundy]

Ok for what it's worth the first few times I read Grey's post I thought he was saying mal could be town so it's not like it's a completely invalid assumption here.

[aronagrundy]

@Arona - why would he focus on you at this stage as scum considering how you're skating through and there are *multiple* wagons with actual heat on them (and he distinctly chose a side) That looks very much like scum looking to either back up a buddy, or buddy town, or some combination - why would he focus on you? That read is pretty thin.

But he did focus on me. He literally said in his catchup post that I was his only scumread.

[aronagrundy]

VOTE: thor

[aronagrundy]

Yeah I like bji's post so far. I feel better voting thor than nero because while I don't like nero's pushes on mal (in retrospect)/bji (now), thor has sheeped both of them.

[aronagrundy]

Prod dodge, sorry bout it it's been s stressful couple days

[aronagrundy]

VOTE: thor

[aronagrundy]

So...potentially FA cleared town?
I'd like to lynch in here; aronagrundy, karnos, ironstove
I think Aronagrundy is probably town.

Vote: Karnoe

Second Day, going the same way

This is thor's first post d2. If he was sitting on the knowledge that FA didn't visit anyone N1, why is he even entertaining the idea that FA is cleared town?

[aronagrundy]

also saru is probably scum too for saying he'll hammer and promptly disappearing

[aronagrundy]

although if thor somehow flips town, I have no idea what's going on

[aronagrundy]

Why couldn't he have seen the claim and believed it, too? He stopped posting before you did.

[aronagrundy]

I do agree that lowell also looks bad coming out of this, though

[aronagrundy]

I guess it's something lowell has to address himself but he could've just thought he was null. Looking over lowell's iso quickly, he hardly touches on thor so I'm not sure where his head was at.

[aronagrundy]

I do see what you're saying about lynching him regardless tho, but it's worth noting you never gave any indication you weren't going to hammer. The claim happened within a few hours before the end of the day (I'll have to check), and you said you saw it.

If you thought thor was scum, why were you so quick to believe his claim?

[aronagrundy]

Yeah it was 5 hours before the end of the day

[aronagrundy]

Thor claimed at like 6am my time (EST) when I was getting ready to head to college. I didn't see the claim until I left my class which was on my mobile 10 minutes before the deadline (I never mobile post, fwiw). I figured it would be better not to take the chance of lynching a PR, basically. Nothing more to it.

Ok I won't hold it against you then. Still think you're scum tho

[aronagrundy]

ew note to self turn emoticons off

[aronagrundy]

@thor:

So...potentially FA cleared town?
I'd like to lynch in here; aronagrundy, karnos, ironstove
I think Aronagrundy is probably town.

Vote: Karnoe

Second Day, going the same way

This is thor's first post d2. If he was sitting on the knowledge that FA didn't visit anyone N1, why is he even entertaining the idea that FA is cleared town?

Thoughts?

[aronagrundy]

Probably because of the dead Bodyguard and the fact that his PR claim didn't imply he targeted.
I don't even get your issue there, and assuredly see no hypocrisy or implied lack/too much awareness of anything.

What do you mean? Most PRs target. It's suspicious for a claimed PR not to target anyone

[aronagrundy]

@bji: that post of FA's you're referring to was made before grey died. Honestly what were the odds from scum's perspective that FA would flip tracker?

[aronagrundy]

Also pretty much everyone townread FA last time I checked so maybe they killed him because of that?

[aronagrundy]

@thor

It should've given you some indication that FA may have been lying. His posts toward the end of D1 imply that he was a PR that targeted other players

[aronagrundy]

Ok that said I'm confused re: bji too. Like there are investigative roles beyond tracker

[aronagrundy]

that 12 hour day tho

[aronagrundy]

9 hours actually

[aronagrundy]

^I hope to see scum lolhammered by page 5 one day