Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[MortFeld]

VOTE: TwoFace

This'll be my first non-newbie game after two newbie games, despite my having only played one day's worth of mafia here total.

Seeing some people from recent games I've followed. Should be fun.

[MortFeld]

Didn't TB vote Drone, who is also not confirmed?

Pedit: preempted by LUV.

[MortFeld]

Hold on. You voted Naomi basically randomly. Then you switched to Copper for something you thought was slightly scummy. I assume you now believe it's NAI, otherwise you wouldn't switch your vote. If neither Naomi nor Copper have done anything alignment indicative, why switch back to Naomi?

[MortFeld]

VOTE: Misa

Don't like how the vote hop went down. Not only did Misa acquiesce very quickly, there was also not even an apparent reason to switch. Read like 'Someone said new vote not scummy? Switch to old vote!' when old vote also wasn't scummy.

I don't even understand 31

Edited it for you And also I won't be confused. - Keyen

[MortFeld]

VOTE: Misa

Don't like how the vote hop went down. Not only did Misa acquiesce very quickly, there was also not even an apparent reason to switch. Read like 'Someone said new vote not scummy? Switch to old vote!' when old vote also wasn't scummy.

I don't even understand 31

EBWOP. Self-reminder to take advantage of Preview feature.

[MortFeld]

Thanks. Agree, was very awkward.

Creeps, do you have a particular reason you didn't participate in RVS?

[MortFeld]

@mortfeld, were you following the game with almost one forth of the playerlist here?

Mini 1833 I assume, yeah I read that whole mess.

[MortFeld]

Ah, no I didn't read that one but I might now.

[MortFeld]

Anyways I feel like misatange is scum by ignoring thinkbig who voted drone and voted for someone else who did essentially the same.
VOTE: Misatange

Why does this make her scum? i.e. why would scum be more likely to do this than town?

Thanks. Agree, was very awkward.

Creeps, do you have a particular reason you didn't participate in RVS?

I too much hands are pointed everywhere.

I need a Creeps translator again.

[MortFeld]

Hold on. You voted Naomi basically randomly. Then you switched to Copper for something you thought was slightly scummy. I assume you now believe it's NAI, otherwise you wouldn't switch your vote. If neither Naomi nor Copper have done anything alignment indicative, why switch back to Naomi?

Why didn't you answer this Misa? I still don't know why you switched to Naomi from Copper.

Anyways I feel like misatange is scum by ignoring thinkbig who voted drone and voted for someone else who did essentially the same.
VOTE: Misatange

Why does this make her scum? i.e. why would scum be more likely to do this than town?

Thanks. Agree, was very awkward.

Creeps, do you have a particular reason you didn't participate in RVS?

I too much hands are pointed everywhere.

I need a Creeps translator again.

"Too much fingers to point. Not enough answers"
And I am suggesting maf brothers.

Why would scum!Misa, knowing that her scum buddy voted an unconfirmed, cast suspicion on someone else who did the same?

As for RVS, it seems like random voting is what generates the material that leads to answers. Saying 'there are too many people voting and too many to vote' isn't a reason not to participate in RVS.

[MortFeld]

Misa - It's not a great answer (voting someone because they are confirmed but haven't posted??) but I don't see any point in pressing it.

In all honesty I ignore threads when they are in RvS. And besides it never ends well when I do vote. If no one noticed that would have went well for ignoring thinkbig.

My best effort at Creeps translation: RVS is pointless. Even in this game, simply ignoring TB made people suspicious of Misa.

I'm confused because you said that you think TB and Misa might be scum buddies, meaning that RVS was useful. Also I don't see how this answers "Why would scum!Misa, knowing that her scum buddy voted an unconfirmed, cast suspicion on someone else who did the same?" I feel like you haven't explained your Misa vote logically.

How do you even lynch someone during RVS, Creeps?

[MortFeld]

Creeps, what about the other two parts of my post? Those being:

Can you explain your idea of TB + Misa scumbuddies, specifically with regard to my question? and

Can you translate what you meant by 'And besides it never ends well when I do vote. If no one noticed that would have went well for ignoring thinkbig.'

UNVOTE: Misa
VOTE: Creeps

Bad logic is not necessarily scummy.

[MortFeld]

I understand that Misa voted Copper and not TB. Your sentence does not explain how voting Copper for a specific reason, when TB did the same thing as Copper, is a reasonable scum strategy.

[MortFeld]

It's not WIFOM. You voted Misa for a reason and I'm asking you to explain the reason.

[MortFeld]

I don't see how reading Naomi will be difficult. The only actual oddities she's described in her own play are - tendency toward defensiveness regardless of alignment, and replacement of scum/town with red/green. How does that render her unreadable?

Personally I'm null on her right now but that's because of a lack of content, not because of her oddities. Saying she'll be difficult to read looks like a pre-excuse.

Creeps, what about the other two parts of my post? Those being:

Can you explain your idea of TB + Misa scumbuddies, specifically with regard to my question? and

Can you translate what you meant by 'And besides it never ends well when I do vote. If no one noticed that would have went well for ignoring thinkbig.'

UNVOTE: Misa
VOTE: Creeps

Bad logic is not necessarily scummy.

Referring to me or you?

It's not WIFOM. You voted Misa for a reason and I'm asking you to explain the reason.

The WIFOM is that scum wouldn't be voting him as that would give him away. But scum could take advantage of that. But scum might think town suspects that so won't do it.

Referring to Misa. Your logic is bad and you are also scummy.

I disagree that there is much WIFOM. I think scum are very unlikely, seeing their scum buddy do something, to call that exact thing scummy. Even if it is WIFOM, you are still voting based on one side of the WIFOM. It's a bad vote with your reasons.

[MortFeld]

I have a major FOS on Creeps and also on Misa. However, I don't want to put creeps at L-1, especially since Drone has yet to confirm his role.

Let's shake things up a bit...

VOTE: Misa

Why, and how is this shaking things up?

Also, Creeps is voting Misa. Does that change your reads?

[MortFeld]

There being a wagon on Creeps is not a reason to vote for Misa. I'm asking why you have a FOS on Misa, TB.

[MortFeld]

TwoFace, what is your impression of Creeps?

[MortFeld]

Don't remember if you did this in 1833. Might not be able to learn much since you were a mason in that game.

[MortFeld]

Refused to give any opinions, reads, possible alignment indicators. Basically just content. Coin flip gimmick is part of that.

[MortFeld]

I mean, I'm not implying that you have an impression of Creeps that you are hiding. I just offered Creeps since he seems to be a volatile player atm.

[MortFeld]

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

[MortFeld]

ThinkBig, why are you voting for Misa? I asked you this way before, please answer.

UNVOTE: Creeps
VOTE: Copper

You're voting Creeps but you think Creeps is lynchbaity and will unvote if Creeps gets to L-1? How is your vote even accomplishing anything then?

[MortFeld]

Why did you change your vote from creeps to copper?

Don't feel like answering this.

[MortFeld]

My other reason for voting Misa over creeps was so he wouldn't be at L-2 and L-1 so early in the DP.

And as I said, this is not a reason to vote someone. Why not put Creeps at L-1 to see what Copper does?

Why did you change your vote from creeps to copper?

Don't feel like answering this.

Why not?

I already did. Partially. But what I said is good enough.

[MortFeld]

Why didn't you say that in post 182?

Because TB is lazy and I don't particularly feel like indulging him.

Reference post?

You kidding me? It's the one where I voted Copper. 179

So let me get this Misa thing straight. You found Creeps most suspicious and Misa second most. Creeps had a ton of pressure - any more would be L-1 which you find terrifying for a reason. So you decided to vote Misa.

Just pings off to me. Finding L-1 scary is NAI, I think my off feeling has to do with your suspicions themselves, which are the suspicions someone would get if they skimmed the thread and determined who everyone else was suspicious of. Your reasons for SRing Misa are also not original. I didn't ask about about your Creeps SR because there's a litany of bad posts there.

[MortFeld]

As I said, I felt it was too early in the DP. I'd hate for scum, or someone to come in and quick-hammer - whether on purpose or by mistake

Are you normally this cautious?

Ongoing games yada yada but the answer is no.

[MortFeld]

Why are you answering for him?

Frustration with his play. It was a bad call to do so.

[MortFeld]

ThinkBig, why are you voting for Misa? I asked you this way before, please answer.

UNVOTE: Creeps
VOTE: Copper

You're voting Creeps but you think Creeps is lynchbaity and will unvote if Creeps gets to L-1? How is your vote even accomplishing anything then?

VOTE: MortField
I strongly despise this statement. You are complaining about someone voting me and be willing to unvote. Care to explain?

Yes I know this is essentially OMGUS but I really need something to do. I bet I will get hammered of this statement but if I flip green go for this guy please. If red then ignore this statement and ignore this vote and post.

Sure, I'll explain this. Copper made a statement that essentially said: I am voting someone I think is lynchbait (therefore town) and I will unvote them if they get to L-1. So he's not voting a SR and he's not voting for pressure. It's a parked pointless vote - by his own reasoning - and I think that behavior is more likely to come from scum than town.

Is there any other reason you SR me?

Also why would you even say 'if I flip red?' From your perspective that should be impossible.

[MortFeld]

Very dramatic, Creeps.

Can you answer my question:

Is there any other reason you SR me?

In case you're actually interested in convincing people I'm scum.

If copper actually said that, that's a good point out by mort. I don't remember seeing it though.

108

[MortFeld]

TB can I see a preliminary readslist? I can explain why I want one from you specifically but I'd rather see it first.

[MortFeld]

What changed between when you scumread Creeps and now?

[MortFeld]

What changed between when you scumread Creeps and now?

I moved creeps from scum read to null/very slight FOS. My reasoning is when he voted for you and said that if he flips green, go after you; if he flips red, ignore this. In the games I've red and been in off site, I've only seen town players do that.

Ok. I disagree, him looking at what happens if he flips town is NAI, especially when you look at his reasoning. Him looking at what happens if he flips scum might be a scumtell. But your explanation makes sense for why you'd change the read.

Very dramatic, Creeps.

Can you answer my question:

Is there any other reason you SR me?

In case you're actually interested in convincing people I'm scum.

Simple. You asked a lot of questions to me. And I am pretty sure that is tunneling

Asking questions isn't scummy tunneling isn't scummy and I'm not tunneling. You're looking for something to do - what do you think about TB?

[MortFeld]

For that matter, I'm also curious what you think of Copper.

[MortFeld]

In the games I've

red

and been in off site, I've only seen town players do that.

Scumtell?

Joking. Just thought that was funny.

[MortFeld]

I did misunderstand. Working right now so I can't respond in detail but I agree that your post didn't imply that you thought Creeps is town.

[MortFeld]

What a dumb semantic argument. No matter what you meant by lynchbait, what good does it do to pressure lynchbait? They'll just do more scummy things. I don't see anyone defending Creeps...

[MortFeld]

There is a qualitative difference between the kind of scummy things you see from town and scum, because scum has hidden knowledge and the more they are nervous and the more content you make them produce the more it's likely part of that knowledge is going to seep into their posting, pretty much regardless of their play-style.

By the same token, it's easy for scum to pressure weak players and jump on their responses as scummy. I'm not convinced.

[MortFeld]

By the same token referring to the 'token' of qualitative differences between responses to pressure.

[MortFeld]

Thinkbig, why did you vote for Copper?

[MortFeld]

In 198 I said that you were voting someone you thought was town, and that you were planning on unvoting if Creeps got to L-1. This gave me the overall impression that your vote served no purpose. I still believe this - you can contest the factual accuracy but not accuse me of coming up with new avenues of attack in posts like 230 which support that. Besides, I even stated in 185 that my vote on you wasn't just because of that one post.

Look at your own ISO. Before I voted you, what had you done other than defend Misa and give iioa? And so far all I'm getting from your response to the pressure is an advanced OMGUS.

Fixed. - MOD

[MortFeld]

Jesus that's the second time I've done vote instead of post. KEY CAN YOU FIX PLS

[MortFeld]

In 198 I said that you were voting someone you thought was town, and that you were planning on unvoting if Creeps got to L-1. This gave me the overall impression that your vote served no purpose. I still believe this - you can contest the factual accuracy but not accuse me of coming up with new avenues of attack in posts like 230 which support that. Besides, I even stated in 185 that my vote on you wasn't just because of that one post.

Look at your own ISO. Before I voted you, what had you done other than defend Misa and give iioa? And so far all I'm getting from your response to the pressure is an advanced OMGUS.

EBWOP

[MortFeld]

235 was meant to show that whether or not scum lynchbait's reaction to pressure is qualitatively different than town lynchbait's, from my perspective Creeps' reaction could be town and you could have been pressuring him knowing he'd react scummily to jump on it.

[MortFeld]

I also don't see any harm in adding reasons if the reasons are valid.

That begs the question of why you were on it still before you voted me.

[MortFeld]

235 was meant to show that whether or not scum lynchbait's reaction to pressure is qualitatively different than town lynchbait's, from my perspective Creeps' reaction could be town and you could have been pressuring him knowing he'd react scummily to jump on it.

Also why would I know all of this, I have no prior history with Creeps.

I didn't imply you did?

[MortFeld]

Also I'm at work and not able to think very deeply on things. I brought some new reasons in for my vote because I thought of them after the vote.

[MortFeld]

K when I get off work I'll lay out the reasons and your responses to figure out if the case is actually crap. My intuition is that this is TvT but there might still be something here.

I also don't see how you think I'm more likely scum than TB whose play is wildly inconsistent and who didn't even justify his vote on you. Makes no sense.

I didn't imply you did?

Yes you did, how am I supposed to know he will react in a scummy way because he is lynchbait if I don't know the guy.

p-edit: I see you realize you are full of shit as well.

Why so combative?

You're classifying him as lynchbait, which means you think he acts scummy regardless of his alignment. You don't need to meta him to assume he'll react scummily to pressure.

[MortFeld]

I'm still not seeing how introducing new reasons for voting someone after you vote them is scummy. You pinged me as scum and I thought about it more and saw more things.

[MortFeld]

Your post about Creeps came after you voted him, yes. How does that change anything?

[MortFeld]

Don't insult me please. I'm not a vi and don't appreciate you accusing me of being one.

If you happen to be town you definitely are and that is not an insult, it's a statement of what I believe about your level of play, take some of your own medicine.

What I'm seeing is someone who gets voted and calls everyone voting him bad. As I said, I'm still just seeing advanced OMGUS.

[MortFeld]

Whatever Copper. I still plan to go through all of the reasons so that I know for sure that your vote is bad and that I didn't actually play poorly.

[MortFeld]

I'm very happy calling scum 'scum' instead of reds, since with the way Copper is playing if he's scum I legitimately hate him.

[MortFeld]

You're an arrogant dick

[MortFeld]

Arrogant dickishness is NAI though.

[MortFeld]

All I can say until I can reread is that I agree that I'd rather see non-Copper people post.

[MortFeld]

LUV - what do you think about his vote on me?

[MortFeld]

Yeah I think it's just OMGUS as well therefore NAI.

[MortFeld]

Reason I'm so focused on it is I feel a bit bullied and not able to self-advocate right now, especially since I'm doing so many things at once.

[MortFeld]

If you'd like I can post a reads list and you can determine for yourself how accurate I am.

[MortFeld]

I highly doubt that I can do much due to the massive wagon on me.

Why does there being a wagon on you mean you can't scumhunt?

I asked you earlier - what do you think about Copper and TB?

[MortFeld]

The reason why I am voting Mort is I don't believe it's likely he genuinely misread my post where I explained what I thought about Creep's playstyle.

In the follow up discussion we had his only interest was in "winning the argument", this is pretty obvious at the end where he brings up conflicting statements about my behavior that don't even make sense when you put them together:

- I was pushing Creeps to get a scummy reaction to mislynch him (this mind you either when I had no idea who Creeps was so I could not predict his reaction or when I was already on his wagon so I would have had no need to do so).

- At the same time I was fence sitting on Creeps (the player I was supposedly trying to mislynch) by saying I was going to unvote at L-1, and that made my Creeps vote some sort of "show vote" from scum.

Do you see why the same player can't be reasonably expected to be doing both and why Mort postulating both makes it unlikely he is being honest?

If you actually think I was saying the first thing you misread the post. I didn't insinuate that you were pushing Creeps for a scummy reaction to mislynch, I was just making a point that lynchbait's reaction to pressure doesn't tell anyone anything and that scum can point out fake 'qualitative differences' in reaction in order to secure a mislynch. I didn't say that you were doing this, but I did say that I thought you were parking your vote.

[MortFeld]

Creeps can you please respond to 294?

[MortFeld]

@Mort
You brought that up as a reason to discredit my reply at the time, makes little sense to mention it as a random point about a theoretical motive that is not applicable in this specific case.

Order of reasoning:

Mort - Copper's vote doesn't accomplish anything. He is voting lynchbait and what do you gain from pressuring lynchbait?
Copper - Lynchbait or not, people still have qualitative differences in response when pressured.
Mort - This may be true, but also true is that scum sometimes overanalyze and come up with fake scum tells. This is especially likely with lynchbait who react scummily to everything.
Copper - I've never played a game with Creeps, how would I know how he'd react to pressure???

You see why I'm incredulous?

Creeps can you please respond to 294?

I don't like to respond to people who I think are scum

Are the questions invalid somehow? And how can you possibly be sure I'm scum? All your reasons were awful...

Where is Creeps right now in terms of votes? L-3?

[MortFeld]

I'm not even attacking Creeps. I literally just asked him for his reads of TB and Copper. Don't see how that requires defense on his part.

[MortFeld]

Well, I'm close to attacking him now, but in 294 I wasn't.

[MortFeld]

I don't see town motivation to avoid answering questions, especially when those questions are very obviously not meant to entrap.

[MortFeld]

I don't see town motivation to avoid answering questions, especially when those questions are very obviously not meant to entrap.

Many townies play anti-town all the time (especially if they don't know better), often scum is actually less blatantly anti-town.

Looks like pure WIFOM to me. Not saying I want to lynch Creeps right now but the guy is a new player, very obvious scumtells are not out of consideration.

[MortFeld]

Don't think it's necessary to go through my reasons for voting Copper again, pretty sure 307 covers the dissonance.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: HS

Reads List:
{

LUV

}
{

Naomi

}
{TwoFace, Toto, Chaos, Misa}
{

Copper

,

Creeps

}
{

TB

,

HS

}

I'm aware that there are 3 scum which makes me think one of them might be among Drone and Loki

Spoiler: explanation

LUV - Is reading everything, giving logical responses, opinion of Copper aligns with mine
Naomi - Seeing mostly theory talk. TRd Creeps and Misa, I don't know who her SRs... or red reads, are. Slight town lean for willingness to go against the grain during the Creeps and Misa wagons
TwoFace - null. Isn't giving up many reads but doesn't seem to be holding anything back. Seems honest in that respect
Toto - null. Not forthcoming with reads but says that's because Toto is predisposed to read people from their previous game more town. Weird but NAI
Chaos - null. Is not taking an active part in the game
Misa - bad logic throughout, couple odd comments like that we have free mislynches and the all caps one toward Creeps, some scumhunting but mostly focused on Creeps
Copper - Most Copper stuff is NAI including his vote on me except 1. how hard he's tunneling and 2. how he did park his vote on Creeps until he found what he thought was a little slip in logic, which makes me lean slight scum
Creeps - blatantly anti-town posts and statements, but newbie status introduces tons of WIFOM. One point in favor of Creeps - most of my SRs were on his wagon. Scum lean because of Ockham's razor
TB - Little original thinking, inconsistent reads and play, failed to justify Copper vote
HS - Drone thing is weird. Little snipes throughout but where's the content? Zero effort to scumhunt, vote still parked on Creeps from 63, other than Creeps SR I have no idea what HS thinks about any players, interaction from 184 to 193 is pinging me as super weird - testing cracks in something solid, finding none, and then acquiescing looks like fake scumhunting

[MortFeld]

I don't think it comes down to perspective, I think it comes down to your misreading, but it took up 3 pages that are basically nothingness for people to read so I'm fine dropping it.

[MortFeld]

I did read my posts to see where I made up reasons for the vote and I'm only seeing the part about scum exploiting lynchbait reactions.

[MortFeld]

Ok, I see from 248 how you could have gotten the wrong idea. It was phrased poorly.

[MortFeld]

Here's what happened yesterday:

I had been asking questions, trying to poke all day. Or at least thinking I was? Since Copper didn't seem to think I had been trying. I felt like for some reason I was only talking to townies, with the exception of TB who had huge spats of inactivity. Then I reread that Copper post and got a mega scum ping and voted him.

After we determined that he didn't think Creeps was probably town, the rest of my argument was anti-town. As others have said, if Creeps is scum he's going to give scumtells. In fancy language Copper said the same thing. My whole argument about not voting lynchbait wouldn't just apply to Copper, it would apply to anyone, and it's absurd to say that voting lynchbait is pointless in and of itself, which is what I was saying.

This is my second game of mafia on the site. If refusing to reconsider the case on Copper is scummy then I understand the case on me. Just know that the reason is that I was excited and acceptance that I was wrong would have returned me to a position where I had few real reads.

What do I think about Misa? She has awful reasoning in her posts but I don't how that's scummy, since town can and do have bad reasoning. How are we in concert?

Copper also misread and misrepped one of my arguments and refused to accept my explanation of what I meant.

[MortFeld]

This is my second game of mafia on the site. If refusing to reconsider the case on Copper is scummy then I understand the case on me. Just know that the reason is that I was excited and that acceptance that I was wrong would have returned me to a position where I had few real reads.

EBWOP

[MortFeld]

TB can you explain your weird V/LA stuff? As in why you say you're V/LA in a different game while you post in this one?

I see TwoFace's push on the lynchbait semantic deal as starting to look scummy. I don't see how either of your arguments pertains to the game. It seems like TwoFace is voting Copper just because Copper doesn't understand TwoFace's argument, which scum or town might do.

Going to reread to see what I think about HS and Drone.

Pedit: yeah for whatever reason the game felt like it was 3 people yesterday, which was caused by my multitasking and inability to see the big picture. So I am finding resistance in myself to disagree with or scumread TwoFace. And yeah I already said I can see how some posts might make you think I was just pulling shit out of the air - I didn't realize you had changed your interpretation.

[MortFeld]

To clarify - scum or town might vote Copper, and scum and town might misunderstand an argument. The reason TwoFace's push on the lynchbait thing is looking scummy is that it feels like a semantic reason to be suspicious of someone.

[MortFeld]

TB's explanation for his vote on Copper references something Copper did after TB voted Copper.

HS looks more town.

I want to run TB up but V/LA is a shield. Well, I'm going to run TB up. If I decide I'd rather lynch someone else I'll vote them.

VOTE: TB

[MortFeld]

HS looks more town.

How?

Reason for scumminess was lurkiness + Drone comment. Drone comment explanation satisfied me and they are less lurky. I agree with their analysis of lynchbait deal (and disagree with yours). I didn't say they were my top townread, just that they look more town - as in, not my top scum read.

[MortFeld]

Jeez I'm getting this latent feeling like scum are closing in and globbing onto things I do. Must mean things I do are anti-town.

This is true. Good pickup.

That's enough to get me on board. I think we'll get a lot more out of this.

VOTE: ThinkBig

I'm voting TB because I think he's scum. What associations do you see, or rather, what do we get from a TB lynch other than dead scum?

I missed that Misa post. I don't like it. Don't see how bragging about win percentages is LAMIST when he bragged about how good he is as scum too.

[MortFeld]

And yes I know I said HS is looking more town, but the way they so quickly voted TB after me felt weird.

[MortFeld]

@Copper can you explain those briefly? Sorry for asking you to spoonfeed, if you don't want to I'll go pore through the thread.

If you're correct then TwoFace is probably scum because I cannot see Creeps being town in any world - yes, WIFOM, but it's like he read MS wiki pages and decided to do all of the things the wiki listed as scum behavior.

We entice TB into posting more.
We get to see what people think about TB once he becomes the main topic of conversation.
We get to see TB under pressure.

It's a lot better than sitting around and twiddling our thumbs, I believe.

With a lot of days left, fair.

[MortFeld]

Town Creeps would be exceptionally bad and would also be refusing to even look at his own play for why people SR him, and I don't see why someone like that would be playing mafia.

[MortFeld]

Ok I'll accept that it's common on the site, especially since I did the same thing yesterday.

[MortFeld]

Awesome, thanks. I am feeling progressively worse about my own play but it's good to see what type of legwork people do to move forward. Will be trying my best to be pro-town and not anti-town as the game moves forward.

[MortFeld]

Too many experienced players are scumreading me for them all to be scum. Feels bad.

[MortFeld]

I also don't see why Misa and Creeps can't both be scum.

[MortFeld]

Interaction with Copper was, in order:

-Copper's vote pinged me because it felt like a pointless vote with his explanation, for 2 reasons: he thought Creeps was town, and he was going to unvote at L-1.
-Copper pointed out that he didn't think Creeps was town, and that unvoting at L-1 is perfectly valid that early.
-I accepted both of these, but the discussion between him and TwoFace made me think the lynchbait distinction was important. Well, first I thought it was just semantic, but I did have an issue with specifically this - why would you pressure lynchbait, if you already know they'll react scummily (this is a misconception in retrospect - you pressure anyone acting scummy to see what they do)
--Copper said that this was me coming up with a new reason to scumread him. I disagree - the reason is the same (parked vote), this new support for the reason was just something else I thought of while he was arguing with TwoFace about the definition of lynchbait.
-Copper said that any scum under pressure will react differently to the pressure than town will.
-I pointed out that while this is true, a weaker player like Creeps could mimic a scum reaction as town, and scum might pressure him in order to find something like this. I was

not

saying that Copper himself was doing this - the point was just to support the idea that pressuring lynchbait so described has no purpose.
-The remainder of the argument from Copper's side was under the impression that I was accusing him of this. This misconception (which was warranted honestly since my argument was wrong and my case on him weak to begin with) plus his abrasive tone made me not want to drop it.

Hope that explains it. I feel bad for wasting town's time, since even if Copper is scum, that interaction doesn't do much to prove it.

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I was also completely unable to keep the big picture in mind since I was reading the game while maintaining two other tasks at the time - what I did keep in mind were the minutia of my arguments, which didn't and couldn't say anything about alignment.

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I'm very happy to not be so combative, I did not have much fun arguing with Copper.

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He played like this in 1833 as green too.

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VOTE: Misa

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Misa's only pressured Creeps this game, and the way she keeps popping in to make posts without content pings me as scummy, like she just wants it to look like she's contributing (106204and329 are all 100 posts apart and don't help me solve the game at all)

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@TB why did you vote Copper?

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Missed it in spoiler wall. I don't see how he twisted the lynchbait discussion. When you can, can I see your interpretation of how that went down?

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Flashes of TwoFace vs Titus from 1833. Which was TvT btw.

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TF, your case on Copper amounts to basically - he used an incorrect definition of lynchbait to justify a vote while he knew the correct one?

Say for sake of argument that he actually believed that his definition was correct. Would that make him less scummy?

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Ok, I missed that. I guess I see two sides to it. On the one hand it makes his vote less pressure and also disincentivizes others from actually putting Creeps to L-1. In a way it fixes Creeps at L-2 which is definitely odd. On the other hand, with newer players in the game a bad hammer is definitely not out of the question.

Actually something else is kind of weird about Copper but I'm not sure what it means.

At least 1 of you that jumped on this is most likely scum.

Here he implies that he's checking out TB and TwoFace as potential scum for jumping on what he saw as a bad case. But 241 implies that the dichotomy is now between TF and me. I think his saying I came up with new reasons to suspect him (which was wrong) was a new reason for him to suspect me. I think this feeling is why I called his argument an advanced OMGUS. I don't think it's scummy though, since with the type of person Copper seems to be, I can definitely see town Copper trying to elaborately justify an OMGUS vote.

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I mean, your argument is part of why I voted him to begin with. But I accepted his explanation that bad hammers do happen - I assume you don't?

Pedit: his recent reads list contained more than OMGUS, in fact, you and I were both town on that list.

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Oh, I was yellow too. So potential scum but not scum scum.

But I accepted his explanation that bad hammers do happen - I assume you don't?

if he legitimately scum read him, why would he be worried about him getting hammered? When I think somebody is scum I am praying for somebody to hammer them, not backing off and even unvoting.

this means that his vote wasn't sincere. I don't see why he as town would do that, I can see scum implications which actually means my read on creep is probably wrong. His vote being insincere points to creep/copper scum buddies more than opposite alignments

Copper voted Creeps very early, in post 33. At the time he made the lynchbait and unvote at L-1 comment in 108, most people didn't have any solid scum reads. Very shortly after he did so you even said in 125 that you had no concrete reads, your opinion of Creeps was that he's 'scummy but that's all'. With that game state, how is it reasonable to expect people to commit fully to their vote? And how is it scummy if they don't?

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I'm not sure. Would be nice if we could ask him.

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I agree that it doesn't make sense to state intention to unvote at L-1 instead of just unvoting at L-2. But why would scum be more likely to do this than town? If scum!Copper's goal is for a Creeps mislynch, he'd just leave his vote on and say nothing. I suppose it makes a bit of sense if Copper and Creeps are both scum, since his vote is an option select of sorts: someone else is lynched, Creeps stays alive and Copper's vote is on Creeps and not a townie; Creeps is lynched, it's a pretty reasonable bus. But I don't see a hugely convincing case on Copper from this.

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What I'm struggling with specifically is that you're saying your argument is that you can't see the townie motivation behind his actions, but what you're actually doing is giving solid scum motivations for his actions. The mere fact that I can picture Copper as town means that there are possible townie motivations, even if they're less convincing than the scum ones.

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The fact that something isn't good town play doesn't make it not town play - my part in the Copper discussion is proof enough for me at least.

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I don't even know what to say to this. I don't understand how you two don't understand.

Whatever. This whole interaction screams TvTT to me at this point. So it's irrelevant. It makes it a shame we lost Copper over it, but what are we gonna do about it.

The whole reason I'm bringing it up again is that I'm trying to understand TwoFace's point, and not just chalk it up to TvTT only to later find out that TwoFace or Copper is scum.

I'm all for a push on the TB/Misa wagon. In fact I'd bet there's scum in one of those slots.

Lohik's slot also worries me. Misa wanting a replacement pings me.

I agree that Misa wanting a replacement is meaningful, especially if she's scum with Creeps, Lohik, or TB. How does the Lohik slot worry you though? They confirmed and then didn't post once. Is it because they posted in another game?

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Ok. Like TwoFace said, I don't really know what to do other than vote who I think is scum (Misa, TB) and wait for replacements/for them to come back from V/LA.

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Are games usually more friendly?

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I should read some more games.

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The big 'ol ThinkBig Compendium:

In 112 he votes Misa because Creeps is at L-2. When pressed for why he voted Misa (Creeps being at L-2 is not a reason to vote Misa) he gave in 180 a reason LUV had already given, and another reason someone else had given, though I forgot who.

In 203 he jumps on the Copper wagon, giving no explanation at the time. Finally when he explains in 373 he says he voted Copper because Copper twisted the lynchbait discussion. The entirety of the lynchbait discussion took place after TB voted Copper. He also unvotes Copper in this post without an explanation.

I asked TB for a reads list because I was starting to wonder if he even had reads at all, or was just voting where other people seemed to. The list he gave in 207 was very odd because former scumreads were suddenly missing, with no explanation in the post. It also left out a majority of the game's players, assumedly null reads? In 209 he explains his shift on Creeps but never answers Toto's question in 249 about Misa.

These inconsistencies are the main part of my case at least. Whether or not he's game avoiding can't be proven so I'd rather focus on the posts he has made?

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In context re: the Copper vote, I'm fairly sure that the lynchbait discussion refers to the argument between Twoface, Copper, and me about what lynchbait means, and not the original vote. Anyway 'he twisted the lynchbait discussion' still doesn't say anything about Copper's alignment, or if it does it wasn't explained at all, regardless of chronology.

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I also prompted TB to give his impression of how that argument went down, since between his vote and the unvote pretty much the entirety of Copper's contribution was that argument and his analysis.

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Not inactive. Scared to post.
VOTE: misa

Why do you think this?

@TwoFace where did HS sheep me?

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Not inactive. Scared to post.
VOTE: misa

Why do you think this?

@TwoFace where did HS sheep me?

Which part?

The whole thing? I mean she's pretty objectively inactive. Why do you think she's scared to post therefore avoiding, instead of actually having RL issues? I have a suspicion of that too but I'm asking you to justify yours.

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TB's explanation for his vote on Copper references something Copper did after TB voted Copper.

HS looks more town.

I want to run TB up but V/LA is a shield. Well, I'm going to run TB up. If I decide I'd rather lynch someone else I'll vote them.

VOTE: TB

This is true. Good pickup.

That's enough to get me on board. I think we'll get a lot more out of this.

VOTE: ThinkBig

I guess I'm less inclined to see sheeping as scummy when it's my own reasoning and it's good reasoning. Which is a flaw in my gameplay.

I do find funny the fact that you're pointing this out since you did the same thing here

Oh yeah that's bad. The over explanation about scum being can be lynch baity makes it bad. Scum can't be lynch bait

This needs a flip. Should I vote?

Heads

VOTE: copper

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@creeps You were saying that you're not inactive, you're just scared to post?

I guess I can see that given the reaction to your posts.

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Then your Misa vote is unexplained.

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I don't think sheeping on its own is scummy, but when your gameplay consists entirely of sheeping, that's scummy, and that's what I'm seeing from TB.

Ok I'm going to try a new strategy with Creeps which is to stop asking him logic questions.

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Oh I see. You said Misa is different this game than last game. Different how?

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Oh I see. You said Misa is different this game than last game. Different how?

I literally see no too little simularity.

See for yourself
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=68656

I... don't really feel like I should have to read that game to understand how Misa's been different this game. Like I think you should be able to articulate it. What did she do last game that was town and what is she doing this game that makes you think scum?

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Oh, and HS: they haven't pinged me as scummy since they started participating, but I'll keep an eye on it.

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Am I asking the wrong question here? It's not a big deal for me to read the game and form my own opinion on Misa's meta, but I wanted to see what Creeps thought.

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Well he's not explaining it at all, his explanation is "read the game" which I'm reluctant to do since I'm reading 2 other games in addition to this one

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Welcome, Nero! Your slot has said nothing all game. Looking forward to seeing what you have to say.

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Man I was excited when I saw there were like 6 pages to read.

Oh. Sucks that my first non-newbie is like this.

UNVOTE: Misa don't see much point in keeping a replacement slot at L-2.

I'm not liking Chaos. In 1833 he was my top TR early and most of the town's; granted, he was V/LA for more than half of this game but he's taking way more of a backseat. Basically tunneled on Misa and then eagerly jumped on policy lynch wagon and then back to Misa.

Look guys, if we're delving into policy lynch territory, I think Creeps would be a far better alternative to TwoFace.
The consensus seems to be that TwoFace is VI. Town.
We're unsure of Creeps' alignment, and he's also only going to be a liability as well.
It looks like TwoFace no longer wants to be in this game, and the players don't want twoface in this game. If we lynch Creeps, that gives the us the nightphase to find a replacement for TwoFace, and gives whatever replacements we do find for the other players time to read up as well.

I understand this can be flipped into red trying to protect a fellow red, but that isn't the case. I just really want to avoid lynching pretty obvious town at all costs.

If push comes to shove I suppose I'll join along, but it really is a last resort for me. Creeps, TB and Misa's slot are all much better options in my eyes.

I don't understand this. I feel like this post invokes so many anti-town premises. Don't we want to avoid policy lynches in general? Isn't the choice between policy lynching TwoFace and normal lynching someone else? Why say 'Let's not policy lynch TwoFace, instead let's policy lynch this other guy!' when nobody is discussing policy lynching Creeps? Wouldn't we rather have Creeps, who isn't being toxic and spewposting, live into day 2 than TwoFace who's going to have to be replaced? I don't know if it's red protecting red, I just don't understand your headspace when you made this post.

Null on Wobbu and other replacements atm, going to reread with attention to them.

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I picked up on the soft claim, didn't think it was important/a good idea to mention it. Like, if scum miss it then why tell them?

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I get being against cases, I think the idea is that if someone reads and doesn't understand an argument they can just ask? Which I'm fine with and I don't think the lack of concerted effort to convince is anti-town.

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I didn't want to policy lynch TwoFace because I read him as very town, but I did want to policy lynch Creeps because I have no idea what his alignment is. Therefore, we have a higher chance of flipping scum in my eyes.

Thankfully, we're out of policy lynch territory and I'm 100% willing to give TwoFace another chance. Especially if he posts more like he has been recently.

Explain something for me. Is there some magical Policy Lynch Land where

any

policy lynch is inevitable? Now I wasn't there for the flow of conversation, but it seems to me that what happened was this:

Drone makes 613. Weird post, what's the policy lynch based on? Toxicity?
HS says in 614, yo I ain't down for this, TF is town.
Chaos says in 616 policy lynch! Wooo!
Wobbu policy lynch votes? In 621 except it's not a policy lynch, he seems to be making an argument that TF is scum except says he might be town, also weird
Naomi votes for policy lynch, distraction I guess.
Then HS makes 631. I already said why I thought 631 is weird.

Look guys, if we're delving into policy lynch territory, I think Creeps would be a far better alternative to TwoFace.

What is policy lynch territory? What had happened so far is that TwoFace had been run up to L-3 by people claiming to want a policy lynch. The alternative from a town perspective should be to not policy lynch TwoFace, and to carry on with the day. How on earth does it make sense to say "well, if we have to policy lynch someone, let's do Creeps"? You didn't have to policy lynch anyone! Your response to my 719 was not convincing, since you basically said the same thing as you did in 631.

There are no town motivations here. There are few scum motivations either, but there are some. I think you might have given yourself away with

I understand this can be flipped into red trying to protect a fellow red, but that isn't the case. I just really want to avoid lynching pretty obvious town at all costs.

though it would be dumb for TF's scum buddy to say anything like that.

VOTE: HS

I don't think Naomi is scum, I believe that she really is affected by TwoFace's toxicity and that a policy lynch could be !green motivated. Drone started the policy lynch, which could be scum motivated but I think scum would be more likely to jump on the wagon rather than to start it. So if TF is town, that leaves Chaos and Wobbu as possible->likely scum. But I think HS is more likely, that whole Creeps thing is so weird.

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On mobile, leaving this here to explain later but I don't think that acting would be particularly impressive.

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Toto why did you vote HS? Just bc of what you perceived as role fishing?

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Oh I hadn't noticed that vote. Was TF at L-2 after?

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I don't believe a townie would say what you're saying. That's not what the others on the wagon were saying either

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FoS on wobbu

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Back home and on my computer. Sorry for wallpost. I guess I can spoiler each section.

Spoiler: TF and HS scum buddies

I don't think HS + TF can be scum partners at this point given how badly HS wanted to kick TwoFace out of the game. If that was acting then I would be very impressed. I think this was more of an excuse to jump on the lynch of a townie later and avoid consequences.

If HS and TF are scum buddies, HS's willingness to bus TF is very reasonable. As a townie, I will be frustrated if TF is town, so I can imagine how scum!HS would want to distance themselves and maybe even bus scum!TF. I don't even think HS wanted to lynch TF.
649 is TF claiming vig!?!? says potentially scum!HS. scum!TF if you're claiming vig you won't die!
705 (after Key says TF is being forced replaced) we're not lynching anyone until we have 13 players
614 against policy lynch because TRs TF
All of the other posts where HS expresses disdain for TF's play are NAI, since they could come from scum angry at a bad scum buddy or from town angry at TF in general. The vote to L-2 (correct me if this is wrong) was followed swiftly by an unvote.
So I'm not seeing how HS and TF can't both be scum. I don't see any motivation for the half push onto Creeps other than HS and TF both being scum - do you?

Spoiler: FoS on Wobbu

I don't believe a townie would say what you're saying. That's not what the others on the wagon were saying either

Also, I find it interesting how you're specifically targeting me when HS did the exact same thing.

I find your response interesting, since I'm voting HS.

I don't believe a townie would say what you're saying. That's not what the others on the wagon were saying either

Right... so you scumread me because I lynched someone with different reasons than others have? I'd like to point out that everyone else just said "policy lynch". At least I justified my vote.

Like Toto said, your reason itself is scummy. We don't lynch slots just to see how they flip, especially since you literally said you think TF is probably town.

Spoiler: LUV

I didn't want to policy lynch TwoFace because I read him as very town,

but I did want to policy lynch Creeps because I have no idea what his alignment is.

Therefore, we have a higher chance of flipping scum in my eyes.

Thankfully, we're out of policy lynch territory and I'm 100% willing to give TwoFace another chance. Especially if he posts more like he has been recently.

I don't want to really advance the game any more with so many people absent or getting replaced.

That is never a good reason to policy lynch someone. The only time I think it's even remotely acceptable is when a player is playing extremely anti-town and even then, getting the mod to handle the situation is a million times better.

What do you think about my analysis of this in 719 and 739 including HS's response to 719 in 720?

With that being said, I don't think scum would blatantly claimfish and/or rolefish like HS has been doing but his forgetfulness worries me.

Why would town do this?

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HS, please explain how a Creeps lynch could actually be classified as a policy lynch. You make it sound like you want them gone because you're not sure that they're town.

You're not allowed to ask this until you explain your vote on TF with reasoning that isn't "I want them gone because I'm not sure that they're town, and they're also not contributing"

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Btw Wobbu you seem to be conflating voting and lynching, a lynch is what happens when we reach majority and someone dies, what people have been doing today is voting.

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I don't see any motivation for the half push onto Creeps other than HS and TF both being scum - do you?

Creeps soft claimed.

Is this really enough for scum!HS to move off TF and onto Creeps if both TF and Creeps are town? I mean HS is getting flak for it from me and Creeps, hard to imagine scum!HS wouldn't anticipate that.

Even if it is, it is still very possible that TF and HS are both scum, but I'll accept that TF could be town.

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That was my reason. Make of it what you will. I'm not going to go and make up another reason just to make myself look less scummy. I've already unlynched them after being told that my reasoning was bad (I agree that it wasn't all that solid).

Wobbuffet what previous experience you have playing mafia?

I've played a lot of chat mafia on a different site.

This reads very honest to me by the way.

Waiting for the slot to do something pro-town for me to judge.

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Welcome Road! Your slot has been fairly scummy but nothing extremely egregious. 596 is HS' summary of events, I don't think it's entirely accurate but you can judge for yourself after reading.

In order of who I find most scummy to least:

HS has been PR hunting, voted someone they explicitly townread, made a weird push during a policy lynch wagon to policy lynch a player who had softclaimed and who nobody was talking about, ISO me and Toto's recent posts for this

Wobbu's slot got in a dumb argument with me and TwoFace that lasted a long time and accomplished little, during the TF policy lynch wagon Wobbu voted TF, saying the reason was 'TF isn't contributing so it's not a huge loss even if they're town'

ThinkBig has had allegations of game avoiding, sheeps reasoning, sheeps votes, voted Copper and then gave a bad reason that (arguably) came chronologically after TB's vote, posted a reads list that was inconsistent with his vote

Chaos has taken a backseat where in the past as town he's lead discussion (though he was V/LA for large part of this game), hopped on the TF policy lynch wagon very quickly

Your slot has not been game solving, has made some posts that did not seem genuine, replaced out when pressure mounted again

TwoFace has been aggressive but not in a gamesolvey way, got town mired in a semantic argument with Wobbu's slot, is distracting to the point where 5 people tried to policy lynch him, HS's push onto Creeps during the TF policy lynch might be scum trying to protect scum

That should cover it. Creeps has made a large number of weird scumposts but they are so bad that I personally am treating them as NAI for now. Also, pressuring Creeps tends to do nothing unless you vote him, then he scumreads you.

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TwoFace has been aggressive but not in a gamesolvey way,

And by this he means I have developed 2 fairly strong scum reads, which he is suspicious of himself. I have also 2 light scum reads.

So basically I have been aggressive in a game solving way.

I'm not going to interact with this, everything I would say now has been hashed out.

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If you couldn't tell from my TL;DR, Creeps has softclaimed some role.

[MortFeld]

I implied it when I talked about how HS tried to push a Creeps policy lynch despite TRing him and him softclaiming but I forgot to explicitly say Creeps' name, that's my bad.

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I actually had mort as a town read. Though I'm not so sure anymore.

What on earth is making you unsure?

When did HS say that they TRed Creeps?

HS never said that? HS TRed TwoFace. HS never voted Creeps during the TF push, they just expressed that TF was likely town and that Creeps was a better policy lynch.

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Oh you're right Road. That was my bad, mixed up Creeps and TF. Ty for catch Wobbu

I didn't deliberately leave out anything TF. I wanted to catch Road up and I made some mistakes. The mistake wasn't even leaving out the soft claim, it was leaving out Creeps' name.

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Misrepping your play TF is up to interpretation, personally I am sick of interacting with you and can definitely see a scum case for you. I see your play as focused on discrediting other players, proving them wrong, showing that your own play is good. You're focusing on minutia and I don't see that as game solving.

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VOTE: 690 is TF's case on Copper/Wobbu, I wouldn't call it vague but I would also not call it convincing. My reasons for SRing that slot have little to do with it.

[MortFeld]

690 is TF's case on Copper/Wobbu, I wouldn't call it vague but I would also not call it convincing. My reasons for SRing that slot have little to do with it.

EBWOP what an awful habit.

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You're still not explaining something though HS. I get why Creeps is a policy lynch. I get that you didn't want to lynch TwoFace. How is a Creeps policy lynch a reasonable alternative rather than just not voting TwoFace and expressing your opposition to the TF policy lynch? People weren't trying to policy lynch anyone, they were trying to policy lynch TwoFace. How on earth does saying "Creeps is a better PL!" make sense? Nobody was having an issue with Creeps at that point.

[MortFeld]

Uh... ok. It's incredibly odd, you have to see how it doesn't make sense to me and why nobody considered voting Creeps. Anyway my vote stays on you until we hear from TB, Road, and the nearly completely mute Lohik/Nero slot.

[MortFeld]

To be clear, it's more than incredibly odd, you've given a town motivation but that town motivation is completely illogical and the scum motivations make way more sense.

[MortFeld]

Drone what would you identify as the most common TRs and SRs? Curious because I feel we're pretty across the board.

[MortFeld]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing Drone, an analysis of HS' reads compared to the flow of the game over time might help? Or maybe I have to do the legwork here?

[MortFeld]

A policy lynch is a lynch on policy instead of player read, isn't it?

Yes, none of what I'm saying is disputing that Creeps is a policy lynch. Let me lay out what I'm saying:

-According to you, you pushed lynching Creeps as an alternative to lynching TF because you thought a policy lynch was inevitable and Creeps was more likely to be scum.
-This would be the town motivation for the push - there are numerous plausible scum motivations. If both sides are equally plausible the push was NAI.
-Your stated town motivation makes absolutely no sense. Even if a policy lynch was inevitable, it was a policy lynch

of TF

. Introducing Creeps as an alternative does nothing about the TF policy lynch; it's a completely different discussion. You're not explaining this part. How does saying 'Policy lynch Creeps instead!' convince people not to PL TF?
-Granted, even if this is explained, there are a number of other issues with the play. Also, the scum case makes way more sense than the town still. Creeps had softclaimed (though you claim to not have noticed and I kind of believe you?), Creeps is nowhere near a reasonable PL in my mind (he's new and bad, but he's not ruining the game. There are 3 scum), and you then voted TF 'once a policy lynch became inevitable.' Huh? You thought TF was town. Why would you ever vote a townie? And your vote took it to L-2, I'd hardly call L-3 inevitable but L-2 is getting there.

This sums up why I think your part in the PL wagon was scummy.

Pedit: yeah I'm curious about anyone's reasoning for strongly TRing LUV at this point.

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So actually some of what I'm saying is disputing that Creeps is a PL, I should have said: I'm not disputing that when you said PL, you meant PL as intended.

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After that post HS is looking town with a number of anti-town actions. Gonna set down the game and look at it again later.

Pedit: @Road, what type of reaction were you looking for?

[MortFeld]

A policy lynch is a lynch on policy instead of player read, isn't it?

Yes, none of what I'm saying is disputing that Creeps is a policy lynch. Let me lay out what I'm saying:

-According to you, you pushed lynching Creeps as an alternative to lynching TF because you thought a policy lynch was inevitable and Creeps was more likely to be scum.
-This would be the town motivation for the push - there are numerous plausible scum motivations. If both sides are equally plausible the push was NAI.
-Your stated town motivation makes absolutely no sense. Even if a policy lynch was inevitable, it was a policy lynch

of TF

. Introducing Creeps as an alternative does nothing about the TF policy lynch; it's a completely different discussion. You're not explaining this part. How does saying 'Policy lynch Creeps instead!' convince people not to PL TF?
-Granted, even if this is explained, there are a number of other issues with the play. Also, the scum case makes way more sense than the town still. Creeps had softclaimed (though you claim to not have noticed and I kind of believe you?), Creeps is nowhere near a reasonable PL in my mind (he's new and bad, but he's not ruining the game. There are 3 scum), and you then voted TF 'once a policy lynch became inevitable.' Huh? You thought TF was town. Why would you ever vote a townie? And your vote took it to L-2, I'd hardly call L-3 inevitable but L-2 is getting there.

This sums up why I think your part in the PL wagon was scummy.

Pedit: yeah I'm curious about anyone's reasoning for strongly TRing LUV at this point.

This sums up why HS is town

I cant see it any other way and HS is also the only player ive ISOed so im caught up there

The other way I can see it is if HS and TF are scum buddies.

[MortFeld]

I agree that scum!HS, assuming they actually didn't notice the softclaim, would have no motivation to push a Creeps PL if TF is town.

[MortFeld]

See 761

[MortFeld]

I agree with that, for now.

UNVOTE: HS

Wondering whether it's better to get a wagon on TB so he decides to pretend to play this game, or if I'd rather vote Wobbu. Misa/Road slot looking slightly better except for the aversion to reading.

VOTE: TB

I still don't understand your Creeps reaction test. Like what types of reaction from me would have been alignment indicative? Asking more because it's my second game and the concept of reaction tests is something I don't really understand yet.

[MortFeld]

Er, Mort reaction test via voting Creeps.

[MortFeld]

Huh? That's what happened. Not sure what the implication is.

[MortFeld]

I did vote HS. When I get to my computer I'll take a second look at the claim. One thought I'm having is that Road never explained her TR on HS actually. I'm very much lacking confidence in my own abilities but in retrospect I had no reason to unvote on her prompting.

[MortFeld]

HS' claim did feel town to me independently of Roads comments but ATM that's just gut, I'd need to a analyze it more to articulate why I have that gut read

[MortFeld]

Because they're bad?

[MortFeld]

I wouldn't say confused and misguided, just easily swayed. e.g. I thought you were definitely scum in newbie 1748. Let me think on it, I'm a little mired in WIFOM right now.

[MortFeld]

Oh, my bad. Didn't think it mattered since you were dead.

Reading your wiki now.

[MortFeld]

Also the meta read isn't the point, but I can't make the point I wanted to make because ongoing game.

[MortFeld]

How could I say I wasn't meta reading you without saying that...

Anyway this is all very off topic. I have some questions about your wiki entry but I'll PM you.

[MortFeld]

Associations if we flip the slot?

HS scum

TF scum? I'm 50/50
Chaos scum
LUV town
Drone town
Creeps town

HS town

Not sure. Actually I see this as very unlikely. How do you even make associations here when the case on HS is legitimate?

Pedit: Oh. I uh, don't plan on talking about ongoing games anymore if that affects the decision to force replace me. I do think another replace would pretty much completely kill this game though, especially if TF is being force replaced too.

[MortFeld]

VOTE: HS

Going to go with my mind over my gut here.

[MortFeld]

Ok that's good.

Forgot HS scum -> Road scum. This is the one I'm probably most sure of. Annoyed at myself for not questioning this.

Road can you explain 848 please?

[MortFeld]

I'm not letting him off the hook. He's tied for my second scum read pre-HS flip.

[MortFeld]

Because he hasn't made the post yet. Nobody can prove he's game avoiding or not but I want incentive for him to make it just the same. I also SR him independently of his lack of recent contribution. I feel like the questionable decision there was unvoting HS, not voting TB.

[MortFeld]

Going to do the legwork here so people aren't confused and so we don't get another back and forth with TwoFace about facts. I'm not looking for a response from TwoFace, but it's a disservice to both town and to Wobbu himself if TwoFace just says 'Liar!' and doesn't even quote posts. Here are the posts where Wobbu allegedly lies:

Spoiler: every alleged lie TF pointed out minus one repeat

VOTE: TwoFace

As much as I TR TwoFace, I feel like a policy lynch is necessary here.

He's already shown that he's unwilling to contribute thoughtfully to the game

, so I think that lynching them won't hurt too much even if they do flip town. And yeah, maybe it'll turn out that they're actually mafia.

Though this might not be strictly true, it's also not a lie. TF's arguments are often tenuous when originally expressed - TF usually explains them fully later but it's difficult to follow. Also TF has made a number of distracting posts that could definitely be characterized as lacking thoughtfulness.

VOTE: TwoFace

As much as I TR TwoFace, I feel like a policy lynch is necessary here. He's already shown that he's unwilling to contribute thoughtfully to the game, so I think that lynching them won't hurt too much even if they do flip town. And yeah, maybe it'll turn out that they're actually mafia.

I've contributed thoughtfully. Thanks.

Uh, no. You've thrown out random scum reads and then

lashed out at people who've asked you to give reasoning behind them, and you've refused to do so

.

This... isn't true. I agree it's a misrep.

Wobbuffet, how do you strongly townread TwoFace if you don't understand why he's scumreading you?

I don't strongly townread them. However, I do get the feeling that they're a townie who's made the mistake of

not justifying their scumreads

and being overly defensive. I could very well be wrong though.

This one actually pings scummy to me, whether or not it's a lie. It's sort of a lie, I think TF has justified their scum reads but the cases are bad so it's understandable that Wobbu might think they're unjustified. What's weird is the 'He's probably town and bad, but I might be wrong!'
Not going to quote this, 677 Wobbu accuses TF of avoiding the question of why TF scumreads Wobbu's slot. This isn't a lie, TF said Wobbu should read the thread for the reasons but didn't answer the direct question. Whether or not TF has an obligation to summarize the case when prompted is up to debate but this wasn't a lie.

Oh yeah that's bad. The over explanation about scum being can be lynch baity makes it bad. Scum can't be lynch bait

This needs a flip. Should I vote?

Heads

VOTE: copper

Well I dug through the thread and I found this is where you lynched my slot.

That's your reasoning? You disagreed over the definition of a term and you were so arrogant that you decided to lynch over it?

Please.

Either a lie or misreading. To be fair, I had this misreading at first too but it was cleared up prior to Wobbu's entrance.

I used to TR TwoFace, but I'm not so sure anymore. They seem to be getting overly defensive whenever anyone makes any kind of accusation about them. They're also

trying to get Mort lynched

for something that was pretty clearly a mistake, and was quickly fixed.

This is a lie. TF's pressure on me for mistakes in my rushed SRs list was dumb but looked !green motivated to NAI at worst. If TF tried to get me lynched over that it would have been red! motivated. Scummy lie.

Conclusion: I agree none of this looks !green motivated. Mostly NAI to slightly !red motivated. Adds a bit to my own scum read of Wobbu.

[MortFeld]

Important thing that needs its own post: Wobbu, can I see your reads?

I've been using red/green and scum/town interchangeably. I plan to use red/green exclusively for the remainder of this game.

[MortFeld]

I am new to this game and still not quite sure what to do.

1) Start by addressing the case against you.
2) Let us know what you think of the other cases.
3) Tell us who is town and who is scum according to you.

I think these are things anyone can do, even if they're completely clueless? 1) and 3) at the very least I'm certain are doable. 2) requires reasoning capacity, but you are smart and you can do 2 also.

[MortFeld]

If you're right, the Creeps push was NAI. What about HS' part in the TF policy lynch makes them town?

[MortFeld]

Right now I'm just asking Road to justify saying your part in that makes you green as opposed to it just being NAI.

I agree that there is probably at least one red among Drone, Chaos, Wobbu, Naomi, and you. But even it's true that you look less red than the other four (and I'm still thinking about it), that doesn't clear you at all.

[MortFeld]

Road is saying weird things like that lack of red motivation = green motivation.

[MortFeld]

You and HS?

[MortFeld]

I'm wondering if you've actually read my posts on HS. I'm not pushing them purely because they saw TF as green and eventually voted TF. Even in that respect, your votes differ. Yours was based in a sentiment you had been expressing for most of the game and was actually a PL. HS' reasoning was that HS saw a PL as inevitable. HS' vote is worse because they originally opposed the PL.

Actually, I might be wrong. Correct me please if you've already explained this, but why did you eventually vote TF, HS?

[MortFeld]

Correct me if it's a reason other than that you saw the PL as inevitable.

[MortFeld]

I... don't understand the motivation to join a quicklynch wagon on someone you thought was town, and if you didn't agree a PL was necessary.

[MortFeld]

I guess that's what's holding me up. It's not just that HS thought TF was probably town, but the way they interacted with the wagon shows they didn't agree a PL was necessary.

[MortFeld]

Weird vote.

Okay... So... Mort has been on every major lynch wagon of the game and has never had any vote down time once it went up... This says to me that they are Red! they have never questioned enough to unvote and freeze in limbo and its been a long while. (EDIT: Okay so while reading though some stuff generating this post he HAS has vote downtime just not enough to register to a vote count)

Why is this Red? Like, why is it Red! motivated to be on wagons? Also, I question all the time. At the moment I'm still questioning my vote on HS.

64 [3] MisaTange - ChaosOmega, Mortfeld, Creeps20
94 [L-2] Creeps20 - TwoFace, copper223, Human Sequencer, MisaTange, Mortfeld,
422 [3] ThinkBig - copper223, Mortfeld, Human Sequencer,
584 [L-3] MisaTange - ChaosOmega, Toto, Mortfeld, Creeps20,
825 [3] Human Sequencer - Toto, Mortfeld, Drone,

These lists are taken from when the first vote count he joined a wagon not at their height. But yeah Its rather worrying to me that he has been on every train bar tf. The tf train he kinda chainsawed too.

I'm like, headscratching on this. Are you just looking at vote counts and noticing my name isn't first on the list? I'm not bandwagoning and if you ISO me that should be obvious.

other things that are kinda weird are things like in this post; 719 Where he unvotes misa as they was getting replaced.. now given his hard stance aganist policy lynching that must mean he either was reading Misa!Red or they was red! and post unvote and replace his stance changed abnormally fast. 779 Here we can see his read list and it portrays that without Rocky (misa's replacement) doing any work at all they went from being there vote (aka top pick) to there 4th pick and one of those people who over took them was AFK idle!VOTE: MortFeld

What? I have no hard stance against policy lynching. I'm also confused - I was reading Misa!Red, then I unvoted pending a replacement, so my vote could accomplish more. Why is the Misa slot being 5th (not 4th) on my reads list inconsistent? I started looking at HS after the Misa unvote, i.e. a lot has happened in these 200 posts.

I was thinking about my play yesterday - I do admit I have a lot of recency bias. So if something happens/I notice something more recently, I'll unconsciously catalogue it as more heavily indicative of Red! alignment. This might have a little to do with what you see as primacy issues in my reads list, but I still don't see anything inconsistent.

[MortFeld]

Road/Misa wasn't afk when I posted that list btw, that list was in response to Road asking for a tl;dr.

[MortFeld]

Also, any connection you see with TF is odd because I don't read them Green! and I don't know their alignment.

[MortFeld]

Also, any connection you see with TF is odd because I don't read them Green! and I don't know their alignment.

Why not? I'm like most obvious green in the game

Is this just megalomania or are you reasoning this?

[MortFeld]

Actually, ISOing you your reads do align with mine. So I do Green! read you. I'm pretty much fine with the connection to TF, if he flips Red! it means I was utterly wrong in all of my reads and I should pack up and get better at the game.

With that in mind I have pretty good PoE after a flip.

[MortFeld]

Something weird about Naomi - she's only voted me and TF the whole game. TF was a PL, the votes on me were both bad IMO but that could be OMGUS? When someone has only voted a Green! read of mine and a confirmed Green! twice, it's a little suspicious.

Starting to sour on HS. For a contrafact of an R Kelly song - my mind is telling me yes, but my body, my body is telling me no.

[MortFeld]

Ok, fair vote then. I don't see it being Red! motivated.

Do you think HS is Green?

[MortFeld]

To expand on the fair vote comment - I agree that scum might play the way I am playing, inadvertently. Perhaps my reads list would help you believe I do have an idea of how the game is progressing?

I'm working with:

{

Creeps, Toto, Drone, LUV, TF

}
{Chaos, Naomi, Nero}
{

Road, TB

}
{

Wobbu, HS

}

Pedit: Yes... Road asking for a tl;dr was the reason I posted the reads list. You said that the Misa slot was AFK at the time I posted that, which is not true. I didn't say that asking for the list was my reason for SRing the Misa slot - those reasons were explained in the post.

[MortFeld]

I really want to sort the HS slot.

[MortFeld]

And AH! I said scum instead of Red.

[MortFeld]

And AH! I said scum instead of Red.

[MortFeld]

That response to TF does not look Green. I feel like the question was a trap, that you fell into? Like, I thought I understood your 180 on me both times but after that I don't.

And yeah Wobbu has a history this game of selective reading to misreps.

Theory question: if I think one person is more likely Red than another, but the second person's flip gives me more info than the first person's, which is a better lynch?

[MortFeld]

Well you're incentivized to say that because you're the more likely Red person.

Important thing that needs its own post: Wobbu, can I see your reads?

Still curious.

[MortFeld]

I agree. I didn't say lynching Wobbu gives no information, I just think lynching HS gives more.

[MortFeld]

Also I didn't mention this in response to Naomi's accusation originally, but while this is my second game on this site, I've played 7 games on a different site. On that site the meta is extremely safe and people tend to vote like Naomi does; only when they have a confident read. This leads to unfun games, in my opinion, and also often hurts Green since Red will park votes, with reasoning, and avoid suspicion as Green v Green debates over votes consume the DP. I feel like my style moves attention from place to place, forcing people to explain their actions, and I'd like to imagine it's scary for Red players.

[MortFeld]

So the issue isn't that I've been on every wagon, it's that I've been on every wagon

except

TF's?

[MortFeld]

Ok, I'm able to actually read the answer to TF now, since it's one very long sentence and hard to understand. Basically, you have soured on interacting with TF at all? So your answer was basically a non-answer, that being:
if Naomi is Green, what she did is Green play. If Naomi is Red, she is lying and it doesn't matter.

Is this accurate? I still don't see why you reacted like that. TF's question wasn't even a good question, as time goes on of course you're going to change your reads, and I've been a volatile player.

This isn't really a Red! tell though, if I take your tendency to be overly defensive regardless of alignment at face value. All I'm saying is, from where I am, there was an opportunity to just say 'That question is dumb and probably a bad reaction test' and instead, you had a very weird, windy WIFOM reaction.

[MortFeld]

The extent to which Naomi seems to be hating this particular game could factor into that.

Pedit: I'm keeping an open mind but Wobbu is not doing an amazing job of acting Green.