Micro 649: Normal Idea Mafia (Game Over)

[Heartache]

{light_ganski/Tere}
{Sgz13}
{Leonshade}
{Gamma emerald, McMenno}

? itlepip/BigYoshiFan

1.

[Heartache]

{Leonshade}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{Sgz13}
{Gamma emerald, itlepip/BigYoshiFan}
{McMenno}

2.

[Heartache]

{Leonshade}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{Sgz13} ?
{McMenno}
{Gamma emerald}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan}

3.

Spoiler:

[Heartache]

{Leonshade}
{McMenno, light_ganski/Tere}
{Sgz13}
{Gamma emerald}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan}

4.

[Heartache]

{Leonshade, Sgz13}
{McMenno}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan}
{Gamma emerald}

5.

[Heartache]

{Sgz13}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{Leonshade}
{Gamma emerald, Mcmenno}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan}

6.

[Heartache]

{Sgz13}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{Leonshade} ?
{Gamma emerald, Mcmenno}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan} ?

7.

[Heartache]

{Sgz13}
{light_ganski/Tere}
{Leonshade, Gamma emerald}
{itlepip/BigYoshiFan}
{Mcmenno} ?

8.

[Heartache]

VC 2.2

BigYoshiFan

(3)-

McMenno

,

reso

,

Gamma Emerald

(L-1)

Gamma Emerald

(2)-

Sgz13

,

BigYoshiFan

Tere

(1)-

Leonshade

Not voting (1)-

Tere

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[Heartache]

Happy with wagon. Alternative choice would be

McMenno

.

Want Leonshade, especially

Tere

to weigh in today.

BigYoshiFan, Gamma Emerald. Summarise reads on each other within 1 post.

[Heartache]

PR

Need specific claim to allow counterclaim.

[Heartache]

...
Ok, CC is

useless

here.
PR-soft also no information though. Essentially a not-vanilla claim, or claiming 29/30 possibilities. Meaningless.
Is this a joke? No one said anything?

[Heartache]

Yes.
Not sure yet, but massclaim might even break this setup.
Role madness claiming very different from usual.

[Heartache]

As for BYF, his previous slot owner lurked out, then he invoked the Amished tell twice. Heavily scumreading him.

...

Not scumreading him for itlepip hammer?

[Heartache]

BigYoshiFan slot is scum based on the itlepip play. BigYoshiFan alone in isolation is not as bad as you make out, those tells are kind of shallow.

[Heartache]

That too. As I sadi earlier, I've seen scum get away with justified quickhammers before.

Example, fast.

(expired on 2016-10-12 23:16:38)

[Heartache]

As for BYF, his previous slot owner lurked out, then he invoked the Amished tell twice. Heavily scumreading him.

...

Not scumreading him for itlepip hammer?

That too. As I sadi earlier, I've seen scum get away with justified quickhammers before.

The quickhammer is not a generic bad thing that scum "could possibly have done here". It's how itlepip voted was scummy in itself.

The difference is important. You don't lynch anyone who quickhammers on the reasoning "scum do it sometimes", how you read the action itself is important.

[Heartache]

That's a stretch.

[Heartache]

Fullclaim your role please.

You'll have the most credibility doing so now, for various reasons.

[Heartache]

Okay I would hammer this.

I'm sorry you replaced into the slot of someone so obvscum.

[Heartache]

You're scum anyways, but I'll explain this because it was total genius.
Pressing the claim with the incentive of towncred (credibility) so you don't have the chance to possibly daytalk or review the facts.

Inducing a state of panic in the frightened mind.
Town would know it couldn't be hammered in that situation anyways and would keep calm, the actual situation has not changed at all, but the guilt in the scum mind has made the pressure I put look extra threatening.
The response behaviour was bad enough but your

contradiction

seals the deal in an almost poetic way.

I am possibly a scumhunting god.

[Heartache]

The only thing odd is that you've given up but haven't self-hammered.

[Heartache]

Okay. Leonshade and Tere will decide the lynch then.

[Heartache]

I think you are town, so you should talk to me about your reads.

[Heartache]

Aside from me, who do you think is scum?

[Heartache]

With words and stuff, I have no interest in your naked lists.

Benefit of this style is, you can tell when people really care. And what specifically about.

In all honesty this doesn't look that great for BYF. If he flips scum I think there are definitely associatives to go into with the Heartache slot. Still happy with my vote there. I'm not really interested in hammering and want to hear from Lyonshade when he gets back on the 16th.

I don't understand this part? I think I am the strongest pushing of his lynch. If you scumread me, alright, but don't try to chain me with the person I'm trying to lynch.
This is a little fishy as it comes after you have a read change on him, and he is likely the lynch, so I want you to explain this.
But waiting for leonshade I can agree with. With his experience, maybe allowing him a free pass today is a bad idea.
But I am out on the weekend and so will not be here either.

BTW, Heartache if you actually care to understand my reads I think they are perfectly clear if you read my ISO.

Worth having an updated and possibly more in depth summary.
I have misphrased my question though. What I meant to ask is, where would you look for scum if I was not in the game. I.e. not based on associations or like that either.

Heartache, a read on BYG and sgz please?

I will write more on BYF when I have time, but the short form is that the slot's initial play was total apathy towards the game, and the hammer without claim was just horrendous.
Worse is that upon next day there was no remorse or comment on it, no acknowledgement he even did anything wrong, and then on top of that he just replaced out. This could not get more obvious.
BYF is harder to read, but he slipped up in the response to my pressure (the situation had not actually changed), and especially the claim contradiction is bad for him.

Sgz is easy, he has felt very transparent, and though I don't agree with him I feel like I understand his comments without thinking too hard. What I really liked was when I was in the process of my catchup, his growing paranoia on leonshade mirrored my own feelings on the slot, which is hard to explain as a tell.
It's weird, but I notice doublechecking the context of the thread and timing of his posts seems to make a big difference in understanding, as in isolation you miss these things.

[Heartache]

OK so you think it's A OK for you to provide naked lists but I have to do busywork for you?

Yeah, no. You can read instead.

???
I answered all of your questions. I have a few questions of my own, but I don't think they are particularly difficult.
I do not understand this attitude from you as if I owe you something or have insulted you.

Nice Beetlejuice when I V/LAed as well.

...Do you think I wrote that in a minute?

---

Now I do have an issue. I said so much to respond to, but instead of analysing it, you've nitpicked these 2 things.
I feel like if you were interested in what I had to say, you would talk about the main points? Maybe you were in a rush to leave to V/LA, but I am having some trouble understanding your perspective here.

[Heartache]

Now, this is an actual example of wanting busywork while not my own questions in return

[Heartache]

*while not answering

[Heartache]

hopping in. plz analyze why I am scum from ISO thanks.

If you read my ISO you would have seen this, but unlike you I'll answer anyways rather than be passive aggressive for no reason.

I still think you're probably town, but I'm starting to have some questions now.

[Heartache]

You know, I feel as though you're genuinely upset at me and it's incredibly bizarre.

[Heartache]

...This is starting to get patronising.

[Heartache]

Okay I'm back.

[Heartache]

I was just going to ask for that case

[Heartache]

As to naked lists, if you have a time machine you'll be able to visit the future and see me do them in every game.

[Heartache]

Now, before ending the day I'd like some of my questions answered.

For starters, I'm going to reiterate this as it's fairly important right now.

In all honesty this doesn't look that great for BYF. If he flips scum I think there are definitely associatives to go into with the Heartache slot. Still happy with my vote there. I'm not really interested in hammering and want to hear from Lyonshade when he gets back on the 16th.

I don't understand this part? I think I am the strongest pushing of his lynch. If you scumread me, alright, but don't try to chain me with the person I'm trying to lynch.
This is a little fishy as it comes after you have a read change on him, and he is likely the lynch, so I want you to explain this.

Secondly. The scumreads on me.
Leon's willingness seems to be more of a lack of townread plus gut than a scumread, although I could understand it there isn't much I can say there.
Tere is probably confbiased to hell, but I actually don't like above; counterpushing BYF while simultaneously setting me up for afterwards on a BYF scumflip, especially when she had townread him earlier. Will have to explore this as a possible association. Furthermore I did not get any sense of her asking me questions or trying to explore my motivations.

What I find worrying is how more than one person is trying to link me to BYF and get a 1 for 1 while I haven't seen any evidence here, and logically because it's more than 1 I know some have to be town saying this.

[Heartache]

Since then she's said nothing, has been prodded and looks likely to be force replaced.

But waiting for leonshade I can agree with. With his experience, maybe allowing him a free pass today is a bad idea.
But I am out on the weekend and so will not be here either.

Have you actually read my posts?

[Heartache]

Heartache's entry posts between 201 and 218 are one of the scummiest entries I've ever seen in a mafia game. Those series of naked reads look utterly forced and fabricated to me. Seriously, can any of you say hand on heart you would be able to put together a town to scum read list like that from fucking page 1 of RVS? I know I didn't feel confident in my first stab several pages into day 2! I just plain do not believe it's possible to get a set of reads like that. They are obviously constructed to me.

1. You are assuming the read strength of the top and bottom portion is strong even in RVS? Newflash, I CAN read someone of people from RVS, even if you yourself are incompetent.
2. Believe it or not, but there is a difference between different types of entrances. The more passive/reserved ones are bad, and you can judge if a person is eager to start the game, or nervous and/or scared.
3. I can actually back up each change. The point of not explaining everything is also to save a lot of time, but I can explain something if necessary. I think you haven't actually bothered to try to understand.

[Heartache]

Mmm. I think you're town, you at least seem to really believe in what you're saying.

I really hope I'm right because that'll be fun postgame

[Heartache]

Nice.
I believe we should massclaim.
However, I have information which may possibly prove/disprove others, so ideally I'll claim later. Soft investigative for now though.

[Heartache]

Btw itlepip you're now on my blacklist.

[Heartache]

With a probable protective role in play, I don't feel that a massclaim is a good idea. Nor do I trust you.

Well this is awkward then, because I believe my results would strongly imply who the protective is.

[Heartache]

I believe scumteam is gamma emerald and mcmenno. I CAN say I am not cop and don't know for certain, but I assume scum already can figure this out because I've asked for claims.

[Heartache]

I have a bunch of thoughts, but first I'd like Heartache to answer an honest question first.

Are you the new Jeanne11 alt?

I promise not to shout at you if the answer is yes, but I would really like to know the answer.

I'm not jeanne11. I have made an alt, but revealing would just force me to make another

[Heartache]

You know, it's not actually my responsibility to change your mind. People seem to fail to recognise the onus is on the reader and not the readee, except in cases like itlepip but they should be blacklisted anyways.
I have put a decent amount of time and effort into this and I'm very likely right at this point. I will not lose sleep if you insist on lynching me regardless for I believe not liking my playstyle.

[Heartache]

Looking over gamma emerald, I'm not actually sure why I was okay with him. I believe I townread him for pushing BYF with me on the assumption BYF was scum, but obviously that doesn't make sense now.
Things like amshed tell are very shallow and his reasoning for that push didn't seem to be based that much on itlepip like it was for me, which I thought was odd.

I don't get how anyone townreads mcmenno. Yesterday I thought he was partner to BYF for how overly simplistic his push was, but the apathy and pretty much lurking throughout that day and wagon definitely makes sense as pushing an easy mislynch.

My only concern is leonshade's experience as well as his townreads on both gamma and mcmenno, but I think I can trust my read here.

[Heartache]

If I think about it, one vote is actually safe to put down in MYLO, although I still would like everyones thoughts first.

[Heartache]

Well?

[Heartache]

Mmm. No-lynch may result in more information and a possible gamesolve. If another save happens especially.

To clarify earlier, it's not that I have completely game-solving hard evidence otherwise I would have just said it. But the thing is until I claim everyone would have to be honest just out of paranoia, which puts scum in a bad position where they'd otherwise want to lie.
Given I still have some doubt looming over myself though, I'm not sure what a good system to compromise on would be...

I notice gamma emerald has posted in other threads yesterday. And then mcmenno who was here, but didn't comment anything aside from suggesting nolynch.

[Heartache]

Welcome 1svt.
Why do you scumread sgz?

Also, if you think my scumreads are wrong, can you please say why you think that is. Thanks.

[Heartache]

It seems like a lot of your thinking was before you caught the setup, actually same thing happened to me a little when I replaced in.

[Heartache]

@Heart - Why did you decide to say you have an investigating role and request a mass claim without others agreeing?
It does look more like hasty town...

Massclaim is standard in normal setups, and optimal play too. Often done pre-lylo/mylo even, as it gives a night to check and root out false claims.
But this setup is different and I don't have no clue what should be done here, no counterclaims obviously changes things. I was hoping I could catch someone in a lie, but now I doubt it's worth outing all town power for that chance. Also the problem that people don't trust me enough to lateclaim, yet doing so early obviously defeats the purpose.

I have realized something important though. Because there's a protective, it may be better to lynch today as that gets the most value from a potential save.
Correct lynch + save = tomorrow isn't even mylo, it comes back into a "safe" game with 1 scum out of 5 people.
Mistake lynch + save = tomorrow is lylo and there's another chance.

[Heartache]

Gamma emerald does not appear to push on his scumreads, where if he were town he should.

[Heartache]

Gamma

emerald does not appear to push on his scumreads, where if

he

were town he

should

.

Was not talking about sgz.

[Heartache]

If I'm alive.

[Heartache]

That's a scumclaim.

Mcmenno is saying he's in control of who get's NK'd which is only true if he's scum here.

[Heartache]

It is a scumclaim. Do you know what he's implying there?
Have you thought things through?

Think about why town would say that, then think about why scum would say that.

[Heartache]

I get the feeling you haven't actually been reading mcmenno this game, you said it was your weakest read but your actions follow the assumption he is town.

[Heartache]

You've softed an investigative, will you be able to get another result N3?

Also this is kind of fishy to be honest.

[Heartache]

Interesting.

[Heartache]

Okay so this is why I see it as a scumclaim. He looks like he's softing protective to me, but I absolutely know that's not the case.

I saw it as a crumb that he gave with the plan of using it to counterclaim the real protective next day.

[Heartache]

Alright, apparently literally no one else sees it...

If I'm alive.

you will be

It's not supposed to be even directed at me really, that doesn't really accomplish anything.
It's that, come tomorrow if I'm alive he gets an easy claim of protective based on this crumb. To potentially CC the real protective and avoid having people confirmed as town.

I can understand missing it if you townread the slot though... I guess he could have said it based on what he said earlier about leonshade being the nk "for sure", but there isn't that much point of saying this then.

[Heartache]

Lol, literally no one townreads me and we're going to no-lynch into lylo. Fantastic.

[Heartache]

His reads are more like "I'll lynch anyone who isn't leonshade".

[Heartache]

Neither mcmenno nor leonshade can explain their scumread on me or their read on each other.

How does no one see this?

[Heartache]

If you're town please address my argument instead of just calling it stupid.

[Heartache]

That was recent though, you scumread me before that.

[Heartache]

Mcmenno didn't visit anyone night 2.

[Heartache]

It might be reaching but I also seriously don't understand why anyone has townread mcenno this game... it's like based on meta, everyone said, but I really don't see it T_T

[Heartache]

I think my other result outs a town PR.

[Heartache]

Welp, leaving it up to chance now I guess.

Still would lynch gamma or mcmenno.

[Heartache]

Nice.

[Heartache]

Are you kidding me.

[Heartache]

n1 - light_ganski, visited mcmenno [reso's pick]
n2 - mcmenno, visited no one
n3 - leonshade, no result (??)

Huh, thought tere/1svt was the protective. Him next to claim, then.

[Heartache]

Either callforjudgement or 1svt is probably roleblocker.

[Heartache]

Someone was probably blocked n1 too, but most people had no action that night anyways.

[Heartache]

Those are some weak views, californiajudgement. Would you like to take a stance?

[Heartache]

There cannot be 2 protective roles, and weak doctor seems more believable than jailkeeper. Hmm.

[Heartache]

If I jailed someone 2 nights and there were 2 no-kills, I would probably just assume they were the scum, but you don't seem that convinced.

[Heartache]

Well, there was already bodyguard. What are the chances of 3 protective roles? It would be too stacked.

[Heartache]

The odds of 3 rolls being protective are just incredibly low. Statistically.

[Heartache]

What about ascetic?

[Heartache]

Apart from me no one claims to have. His claim is a little convenient with no actual results, but I townread his effort here now.

[Heartache]

VT is 1/27, or 3%

7*3% = 21% for one vt, which is okay. But another vt is 6*3% = 18% * 21% = back to 4%

That plus he voted me willynilly in mylo when even when his own conclusion in 596 should have him voting cfj.

ISO basically "x is town" "y is town" which makes almost no sense from a vt claim either...

VOTE: Mcmenno

[Heartache]

Actually, mcmenno/gamma was my original guess anyways.

[Heartache]

If leonshade is scum, he would have had to been creative enough to come up with "even-night-only cop" and also about having been roleblocked.
In fact, if leonshade is scum he could probably just have faked a guilty onto me or sgz and have won the game easily.

[Heartache]

Isn't it literally fact?

It's more so the cherry on top than anything else though, if you can follow any read progression in his iso please tell me how.

[Heartache]

[Heartache]

You're like titus.

[Heartache]

VOTE: Leonshade

[Heartache]

let's not delay this further

VOTE: Heartache

This is proof mcmenno is the scum. Only a mislynch ends the game, and his words betray that he knows this is a mislynch.

[Heartache]

VOTE: Heartache

[Heartache]

Oh no the game is hopeless now

[Heartache]

Oh no the game is hopeless now

[Heartache]

Well, it was a good game, well done town.

[Heartache]

I did not expect that hammer.

[Heartache]

No I didn't.