Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Lalendra]

lolwut

I was just joking

but now that scumslip. This is actually interesting.

I'm clearly missing something. How is that a scum slip?

[Lalendra]

lolwut

I was just joking

but now that scumslip. This is actually interesting.

This is reaching and he has yet to respond to multiple people questioning it.

VOTE: mykonian

[Lalendra]

Really not a fan of the claim or the weird emotional outburst so early in the game. It's not that intense yet. I will wait and see what happens after his two-day hiatus though before I decide.

[Lalendra]

I can post more. What would you like to discuss?

[Lalendra]

Most of myko's posts have been crap. I'm not into posting fluff. When I have something to say, I'll say it. Yeah there's 9 pages, but most of it is garbage, and we still have plenty of time left in this day phase, so I'm waiting for more developments.

[Lalendra]

There's a difference between not scum hunting, and just not posting walls and pointless read-lists. If you have questions I'll answer them, but I typically wait until I feel like I have a solid case on someone before I say something, rather than making lists of leans and nulls.

[Lalendra]

I dislike policy lynches, because even if someone's being anti-town, they're still a town player who is alive. I'd rather garmr replaced out and we got someone else who was worth something, but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

I'm on mobile at the moment but I'll make a more extensive post when my computer decides to turn on.

P-edit: was it really necessary to quote a wall for a one-line comment?

[Lalendra]

Okay, computer is finally done installing-then-uninstalling-then-reinstalling-updates, I slept, I'm caffeinated, and I'm all caught up. Wall incoming.

[Lalendra]

Mykonian – Really still want to know why you thought 18 was a scumslip, and I don’t know how to interpret you dodging the questions about this one. As Keyser pointed out in 45, your case on him as scum was based on him buddying and protecting, which he wasn’t because he didn’t name anyone and we were still in RVS.
This has been beaten to death and probably isn’t relevant anymore but I just needed to get it out there.

Spoiler:

51 just doesn’t make any sense.
Garmr: Honestly don’t see anything scummy
Myko: Garmr committed a scumtell.
Dwlee: So saying he doesn’t see anything scummy is a scum tell?
Myko: how is that your conclusion after that post. It’s not even close to the message I put up there.
THAT’S LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID. Yet somehow that “makes everything dwlee says worthless for [mykonian] from now on.” Please explain to me how any of this makes sense.

Perhaps the thing that bugs me most about myko is that I don’t actually think he’s scum, but he’s the scummiest town I’ve seen in a while if that’s the case. *sigh*
UNVOTE: myko

Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.

Herrcombs – Re: your read on Soze’s 142 (in 169), I don’t necessarily feel like it’s anti-town to point out soft-claims, because it’s usually a pretty good indicator of scum imo. A town player wouldn’t really feel the need to soft-claim unless they were under a LOT of pressure, which I don’t think he was at that point in time.

I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.

This is interesting logic, but something feels off to me about it, too. You say "players voting DWL are more likely to be Mafia." More likely than what? Than random? Using this logic with no supporting scumreads gives a probability marginally better than random to find scum. It's kinda like a really weak process of elimination, and it feels strange seeing it as the sole justification for a vote so early into the game.

I think his logic makes sense. Players voting DWL are more likely to be mafia than are others voting for some other player. The answer to your question is literally in his post. I think it’s actually fairly good logic for so early in the game, when we have little else to go on.

Dwlee99 – Reads as town to me due to the level of analysis that he’s engaging in. He’s being proactive, not reactive, and I particularly like the exchanges with myko. Though they are diametrically opposed in a lot of ways, in terms of playstyle and reads, I think they're both town.

Implosion – Why did you think Dierfire + Hieirama scum team in 23? Re: your case on Garmr (leading up to 195), I don’t necessarily agree but I like the way you are approaching the analysis.

Haschel Cedricson – Do you feel like explaining your weird cryptic interaction with herrcombs in 9? It might not even be relevant but I'm curious and I find it odd that people just forgot about it in the wake of the Garmr fiasco.

Garmr – “Honestly” was interesting, but I don’t think it was as much of a scumtell as everyone seemed to think it was. 96 also feels to me like he is being overly-defensive town, I really don’t think that it is a scummy post. But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

I got promoted (yay), worked a crapton of OT this week (boo), fell behind, and when I finally had some downtime and was ready to play last night, my computer decided to derp hard and spend two hours installing/uninstalling/reinstalling windows updates. But here I am now. I think that the rest of this post answers your questions but if it doesn't let me know.

P-edit: @dwlee, Congratulations. I hadn't turned mine on in a month so it had some catching up to do.

[Lalendra]

First off, assuming he's telling the truth it makes perfect sense to not specify a power role. Second, doesn't lynching anti-town instead of scum screw over the town by compunding things even more?

At the time I was feeling that we might have to choose the lesser of two evils, because he was going to actually harm us with anti-town play, which is worse than contributing nothing. After his last few posts I feel a good deal better, as it seems he is now engaged and out of whatever funk that was.

Also, I asked you which mykonian posts were full of crap and all of the posts you talked about were post 51 and earlier. Is there a reason for this?

You're right, I didn't specifically answer that question. I'll answer it in the next post.

as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.

Being anti-town may be "as bad as being scum" (although I'm not quite sure what that means) but that doesn't mean wasting a mislynch on someone you think is town (especially a power role) is going to further the town win condition.

It does if he actively sabotages town with bad/apathetic play. But like I said, I don't really think that's the case anymore.

This here is a extremely poor reason to vote me and a total misrep. It's pretty obvious I was going for a gambit with out saying my power role to get scum to shoot me also I never gave up on the game I just needed a little break to clear my head about things and read other peoples reactions. The way your potraying me here seems like a scummy excuse to vote someone and say they are town at the same time. Then you try and play it off as a policy lynch which you even said yourself you don't like doing.

Sorry for misunderstanding, not sure why I thought you gave up, OH RIGHT BECAUSE YOU LITERALLY SAID YOU WERE GIVING UP THAT'S WHY.

Anyway, since Garmr no longer seems like he's just going to mail it in the rest of the game, UNVOTE: Garmr I guess.

[Lalendra]

First post that wasn’t crap was 37. After that, there was nothing at all until 51. So that’s why most of the stuff I quoted was before 51. TBH when I posted that I hadn’t yet caught up all the way, and after about post #100 he was posting far more relevant stuff, which informed my (grudging) town-read on him and subsequent unvote.

p-edit: @Dwlee it wasn't because of pressure, it was literally what I said, I was policy voting him because I didn't want him to actively fuck us over, and when he started contributing I no longer had reason to vote him.

[Lalendra]

...I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero.

This. This right here. Yes you also said "maybe after a two-day break I'll feel better" but that's far from "I promise that after my two-day break I will return with decidedly pro-town activity and not continue to pork town in the rear end."

[Lalendra]

UNVOTE: Lalendra
The list has arrived~

Back to Garmr for the reasons I was already on the wagon before I switched to Lalendra.
VOTE: Garmr

Hmm, I didn't read it as a policy lynch.
UNVOTE:

I am so confused right now. Did you literally just vote Garmr, then unvote him once you understood that I was just PLing him? Why does my vote inform yours in any way, since you were "already on the wagon"? Did I miss something or is this just incredibly weird?

[Lalendra]

Really not a fan of the claim or the weird emotional outburst so early in the game. It's not that intense yet. I will wait and see what happens after his two-day hiatus though before I decide.

Well, that's an awful post.

k

I can post more. What would you like to discuss?

How about you read the thread and provide something off of your own back? This looks like scum asking for an angle to get into the game.

It was someone who had been entirely too busy to read the thread asking if there was something pressing that we needed to address. I think I caught up fairly well now and made a pretty substantial post, and I am confident in my Garmr read for reasons I already outlined, but if there is something else you'd like to know just ask.

[Lalendra]

DWL is Town and easy to lynch. Players voting DWL are therefore more likely to be Mafia.

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Keyser

I didn’t have as much of a problem with 66 as some others did. I agree that Dwlee is town, which might be why I don’t find his absolute assessment of Dwlee as town to be weird, and I think that “Dwlee is town so others voting him are probably scum” is actually fairly solid logic that I think is used all the time to analyze wagons. Dier also wasn't the only one town-reading Dwlee at that point, so this makes even more sense in light of that. I don’t necessarily agree with his vote on Keyser, since myko was pushing Dwlee a LOT harder at that point in time than Keyser was, he just hadn't voted yet. There is a lot of ambivalent wording in Dier's posts – “I could see that coming from mafia,” “not a particularly strong case but not a particularly weak one,” “I could see that from mafia,” etc. - which I know a lot of people see as scummy, but I don't necessarily think that's alignment-indicative. There are plenty of people who tend to be wishy-washy as either alignment. The fact that he has only posted 12 times in 112 pages is definitely problematic, I feel like he’s just sort of jumping in with opportunistic votes. While I don’t particularly like his play this game, I’m not confident in reading him as scum, because he does have a few good posts where he genuinely seems to be trying to sort the game, but I wish he would post more.

[Lalendra]

EBWOP: 12 pages, not 112.

[Lalendra]

It sounds like you're undecided on Dier.

If we get a wagon forming on him, maybe you will have a chance to develop a better read?

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

[Lalendra]

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

[Lalendra]

I voted Lalendra to pressure them for their reads list. Unvoted when I liked their list but revoted upon learning they tried to pass it off as a policy lynch. I'm not seeing how that makes us an aligned pair.

I think I was pretty clear from the get-go that I considered it a PL but that I wasn't a fan of PL on principle. Not sure where you're getting the idea that I just randomly started attributing it to that.

[Lalendra]

PEdit:

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

Did I just read that right? I don't see how you would agree with a lynch on someone you don't have an opinion on...

I want to put pressure on him to get information. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Then don't vote for him, pressure him.

This has already been mentioned but I still don't get this; how is a vote not pressuring? Maybe I should have said "I would be interested to see how Dier reacts to a wagon forming on him" instead?

Vote: Lalendra

[/quote]

The second sentence wasn't a joke--that part is true! Your vote typically doesn't stick, though.

Oh my god, this exchange bothers me something fierce. This isn't just pressuring anymore.
VOTE: Dierfire

[Lalendra]

Keeping up with the game, not opposed to the pistachi0 lynch but I don't want to vote until we have an official VC. I think BBT's point is legit, we won't learn much more going in circles like this, and the Dier wagon isn't going anywhere.

p-edit: That's actually not a bad point, Haschel. The target won't react properly if they know it's just a pressure vote. But don't you think that if they are close enough to being lynched, it gives the same effect as if it was a real wagon forming? Aren't they under some pressure knowing that their reactions to the votes being cast on them are going to determine whether they turn into real votes or not?

[Lalendra]

Now that's an interesting kill. For one because I would have guessed someone else to go, for two because implosion was the odd man out of the obvtown group when considering his reads.

Reread a bit and you can disagree with me here, but I don't think implosion was killed for his suspicions. He kept his reads close and given that feli's slot is the one replaced, I don't think that person gets a major say in the NK straight away. He came back on his dier read and anyway that's a common one. I think someone saw a pr tell there or scum had other motives with their kill.

BBT, I want your opinion on this.

Curious why you say feli has a say in the night kill think this may be a slip

That seems a bit too obvious to be a slip, to me. I have also flip-flopped on Hieirama a few times, I really think that she's just newbtown. I think garmr and Dier were the scummiest on pistachios wagon.

VOTE: Dierfire

[Lalendra]

I think garmr and Dier were the scummiest on pistachios wagon.

Why?

Read my ISO, I think I've been pretty clear about my cases for both of them.

[Lalendra]

I think garmr and Dier were the scummiest on pistachios wagon.

Why?

Read my ISO, I think I've been pretty clear about my cases for both of them.

So you mean they were the scummiest players who both happened to be on the wagon? Nobody's vote on the wagon is scummy in and of itself?

Honestly I wasn't a fan of pistachio before the flip, so I can't really disagree with anyone voting for him.

[Lalendra]

I am not at all liking the exchange between melter and garmr. Melter is making valid points, Garmr is making almost unintelligible responses that mostly consist of "NOPE YOUR WroNG LOL". I don't really feel as though melter is misrepresenting what went on with garmr d1, and his responses to melter's points have caused him to officially surpass dier as my top scum read atm. While I didn't have a problem with people voting pistachio per se, I didn't like the quick hammer; yes, there were other people who had declared ITH, which is precisely why you DON'T then hammer the person without saying anything. It was pretty clear that there was a reason that they were waiting to hammer him.
VOTE: garmr

[Lalendra]

lalendra is so fucking obvious scum this game town should neck themselves if they can't see it.

You keep saying this, yet iirc you have yet to substantiate this. Offer some reasoning or let it go.

Herrcombs is town and that makes me happy.

[Lalendra]

I had a townlean on you already, but i also just really liked 505, your thinking is very similar to mine.

[Lalendra]

Hieirama is looking more and more like newbscum to me.

[Lalendra]

It just seems like we have to pull teeth to get that analysis, and this coming on the heels of her giving up on D1.

[Lalendra]

But if you meta every single one of my scum I have never ever fake claimed anything other than vanilla town and I don't plan to often.

Often
OFTEN
GOOD GOD PEOPLE HOW IS HE NOT SCUM

[Lalendra]

about your hier read lalendra, I think it's worth it to do some additional research. You could be right and she's newb scum, but it could also be a personality thing of someone who thinks the water in the pool is cold and keeps standing by the side. It's just a bit too blatant for it to be really scummy, I think scum has more incentive to avoid it. But then, I didn't put in that extra time to read some of hier's games yet

Yeah, I haven't either, it is very blatant but I also remember flailing hard in my first scum game sooo

[Lalendra]

If people look at my scum meta I should be like confirmed town at this point

The fact that you keep pointing out how town your meta is makes me think that you are analyzing the crap out of it and only scum would need to do that.

[Lalendra]

Does it matter if my scum reads are on the same wagon if I have good reasons to scum read them?

You have not substantiated your scumread of me in the slightest, so I will continue to dispute this.

What about my other reads then?

Just not even going to dispute that, eh?

[Lalendra]

I like how lala doesn't even dispute my points against her and instead try to discredit me by using other things not related. She doesn't even bother.

Pretty sure I've already responded to your points, if you go back a bit, but if there's anything I didn't respond to, throw it out there.

[Lalendra]

Also I would like to bring up the fact that you slipped in saying you prefer to lynch your town policy read over your scum reads. You would rather lynch town than scum.

Sorry but I'm not seeing that in the posts you quoted here. Can you please point out specifically where I said that?

I'm really getting tired of explaining this, but I'll say it again - my read on you evolved. First it was a PL, then it was your blatantly terrible and anti-town play, then it was your responses to pressure and general attitude toward the game that made me feel that you were in fact scum.

[Lalendra]

I don't like how Garmr keeps telling us to meta him. It comes off as "I changed my playstyle look I'm not scum!!one1!!"

It irritates me people would accuse me of doing things a noob scum would do when I have never lost a scum game by town catching me (I had a sk kill me once when he was hunting town due to the fact he needed to keep towns focus on scum since scum had already taking a few hits at that stage.)

There's always a first time, you can't use never having been caught as a reason why you're not scum THIS time.

[Lalendra]

Also I would like to bring up the fact that you slipped in saying you prefer to lynch your town policy read over your scum reads. You would rather lynch town than scum.

Sorry but I'm not seeing that in the posts you quoted here. Can you please point out specifically where I said that?

I'm really getting tired of explaining this, but I'll say it again - my read on you evolved. First it was a PL, then it was your blatantly terrible and anti-town play, then it was your responses to pressure and general attitude toward the game that made me feel that you were in fact scum.

well this ones easy

It sounds like you're undecided on Dier.

If we get a wagon forming on him, maybe you will have a chance to develop a better read?

I would still prefer to lynch Garmr but I would not be opposed to Dier as a compromise lynch, because yes, I am undecided and would be interested to see how he reacts.

You said this when I was apparently a policy lynch lol.

I don't like how Garmr keeps telling us to meta him. It comes off as "I changed my playstyle look I'm not scum!!one1!!"

It irritates me people would accuse me of doing things a noob scum would do when I have never lost a scum game by town catching me (I had a sk kill me once when he was hunting town due to the fact he needed to keep towns focus on scum since scum had already taking a few hits at that stage.)

There's always a first time, you can't use never having been caught as a reason why you're not scum THIS time.

another filler post by you.


No actual content today I see.

Pretty sure I actually thought you were scum at that time, and you can be as dismissive as you want but that was a valid point.

[Lalendra]

Honestly I'm just getting frustrated at this point, Dier and garmr are so obvscum and no one is doing anything about it, and garmr keeps pushing the same points and beating the same dead horses. we deserve to lose this game if we're going to just let this happen.

[Lalendra]

Honestly I'm just getting frustrated at this point, Dier and garmr are so obvscum and no one is doing anything about it, and garmr keeps pushing the same points and beating the same dead horses. we deserve to lose this game if we're going to just let this happen.

Beating a dead horse would require making a actual case to why someone is scum.

Alright since you clearly can't read my ISO I will go back and do a point-by-point analysis of why I think you're scum.

Although I'm curious why she thinks Dier is so obvscum? I'm missing something obviously, because I can't see in her ISO where she has a single cohesive reason to think Dier is so blatantly scum.

*sigh*
Really guys...ISO. Post incoming on this as well, apparently.

[Lalendra]

But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

At this point, I wasn't sure that he was scum, but I thought his play was off, as he didn't particularly seem to care what happened to town. He was either a super anti-town townie, or scum, but I was undecided.

...I don't really care. My care factor for this game is zero.

This. This right here. Yes you also said "maybe after a two-day break I'll feel better" but that's far from "I promise that after my two-day break I will return with decidedly pro-town activity and not continue to pork town in the rear end."

He tried to say that he really was still invested in the game, and that I should have been able to tell that, but then came back and said he didn't care about the game. In no universe does that make sense.

Then there's these, which I think speak for themselves:

I am not at all liking the exchange between melter and garmr. Melter is making valid points, Garmr is making almost unintelligible responses that mostly consist of "NOPE YOUR WroNG LOL". I don't really feel as though melter is misrepresenting what went on with garmr d1, and his responses to melter's points have caused him to officially surpass dier as my top scum read atm. While I didn't have a problem with people voting pistachio per se, I didn't like the quick hammer; yes, there were other people who had declared ITH, which is precisely why you DON'T then hammer the person without saying anything. It was pretty clear that there was a reason that they were waiting to hammer him.
VOTE: garmr

But if you meta every single one of my scum I have never ever fake claimed anything other than vanilla town and I don't plan to often.

Often
OFTEN
GOOD GOD PEOPLE HOW IS HE NOT SCUM

If people look at my scum meta I should be like confirmed town at this point

The fact that you keep pointing out how town your meta is makes me think that you are analyzing the crap out of it and only scum would need to do that.

Does it matter if my scum reads are on the same wagon if I have good reasons to scum read them?

You have not substantiated your scumread of me in the slightest, so I will continue to dispute this.

What about my other reads then?

Just not even going to dispute that, eh?

I don't like how Garmr keeps telling us to meta him. It comes off as "I changed my playstyle look I'm not scum!!one1!!"

It irritates me people would accuse me of doing things a noob scum would do when I have never lost a scum game by town catching me (I had a sk kill me once when he was hunting town due to the fact he needed to keep towns focus on scum since scum had already taking a few hits at that stage.)

There's always a first time, you can't use never having been caught as a reason why you're not scum THIS time.

Now please stop saying I never made a case on you, because I just proved that wrong, so either defend yourself or gtfo.

P-edit: Funny that the one on everyone's scumdar is scumreading me, I think that should make it fairly obvious which side I'm on.

[Lalendra]

Okay, if I'm at L-1 then I guess it's claim time, before Garmr lolhammers again. I'm Town Doctor - can protect one player each night from a NK.

[Lalendra]

(it should be a self-explanatory role but figured I'd pre-empt the follow-up questions)

[Lalendra]

That bit about Garmr was a joke. I protected mykonian because he was my main town read, and was actively scum-hunting, and was concerned that he might be enough of a threat that scum would NK him to shut him up.

[Lalendra]

2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.

This is seriously grasping at straws. How are you so sure there aren't any crumbs? And do you think it's necessary for town PRs to crumb their roles? Don't you think it's a terrible idea for a PR to have obvious crumbs, especially for a doc, because they could be easily noticed by scum for an early NK? Do you think it's impossible for scum to fakecrumb PRs?

Like wtf... why even make that argument...

This. I don't like crumbing, because it's as obvious to scum as it is to town.

@ Lala's 671: Why joke as a means of justifying a premature roleclaim? Isn't the proper time to claim when someone declares intent to hammer? Wagons can fall apart on their own at L-1... So wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible before you claimed?

I generally claim at L-1 because frankly, I don't have the time to check in on the game every ten minutes during the week, and it's entirely possible that I could miss ITH and the hammer vote. So, since I was already here and actively posting, and saw that I was at L-1, that seemed to me like the time to claim.

And you're right Herr, going back and reading it's possible that I had confirmation bias with Dier, there was just that one exchange that I really really didn't like and it's possible that he was just being cheeky and I misinterpreted it. I am willing to revisit my read on him.

[Lalendra]

I don't understand Garmr's "crumb who you protect" thing. It seems kind of odd. Maybe the day after you save someone (like "this person is my number 1 town read") because they can't be scum if they got attacked and healed. But that argument makes no sense. And then this:

But I guess she would be killed tonight if she is town
UNVOTE: lal

It seems like you're setting up for a lynch tomorrow because of WIFOM.

Or its basic common sense on this site. The only way a town doc would live is if they are useless so much it helps scum

Not necessarily. It's possible scum could keep me alive because they don't want to waste a NK on someone who, it has already been declared, will be lynched the next day. Why not just NK someone else, then wait for everyone in town to immediately turn and point at me and say I must be scum. Gives scum a two-fer AND lets them coast for a day.

While I understand the "if she's still alive she's scum" argument, it's not necessarily valid, and certainly shouldn't have been voiced.

[Lalendra]

I reread Dierfire's ISO and I'm back to FOS'ing him. He asks a lot of questions of other people, but offers very little of his own opinions; it seems like he is just mostly fence-sitting, and offering very wishy-washy opinions, like he's trying to maintain distance from his reads in case he's wrong. I don't get the impression that it's just overly-cautious town play. I'd be comfortable with lynching him today.

[Lalendra]

To be clear, I am still voting garmr. However if the Dier wagon picks up steam, I will gladly sheep the fk out of it, because I am happy lynching either.

[Lalendra]

@Lalendra

I reread Dierfire's ISO and I'm back to FOS'ing him. He asks a lot of questions of other people, but offers very little of his own opinions; it seems like he is just mostly fence-sitting, and offering very wishy-washy opinions, like he's trying to maintain distance from his reads in case he's wrong. I don't get the impression that it's just overly-cautious town play. I'd be comfortable with lynching him today.

This...sounds very fake. I wonder whether you could substantiate these claims further.

If you read his ISO, you'll see it - almost every post is a question aimed at someone, or a "it could be this or it could also be that." I'm not going to bother to quote every single post he's made that follows this pattern, because there are too many. But you'll see it.

bull fucking shit lale is town individually she has provided no reasoning at all day 1 showed she wanted to vote town over scum day 1 and her reasoning for her two top scum reads are not even there. There's plenty to point to scum.

If I get shot/lynched, I legit cannot wait for the shitstorm that will rain down upon you for calling me scum all this time, it's going to be glorious.

To be clear, I am still voting garmr. However if the Dier wagon picks up steam, I will gladly sheep the fk out of it, because I am happy lynching either.

I REALLY do not like that last statement. I understand you find Dier 'Obvscum' but I just dislike how it seems you are merely picking whichever door the most people are going into.

I already went back on the obvscum part, pay attention. And yeah, at this point with only a few days til deadline and almost no cohesiveness in reads/votes from the group at large, I am willing to take lynching a scumlean over a no-lynch.

[Lalendra]

Fuck it. You're actually right -- a Lala lynch gives us a hell of a lot more information than a Haschel lynch.

Oh it'll give you information all right.

We'd better be right about this, or else I'm flipping my desk.

Spoiler alert! You're not!

[Lalendra]

Honestly whatever I say really doesn't matter at this point. Lynch me, or let scum shoot me tonight. I'm just looking forward to seeing all the backpedaling, speculation and associatives that are going to Halen after I'm dead. And to seeing garmr lynched after I flip doc, that'll be fun too.

[Lalendra]

Happen, not Halen, how the fuck...

[Lalendra]

Well clearly nothing is going to happen with the Garmr wagon so

VOTE: Haschel

[Lalendra]

BACKING OFF SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY CLAIMED A ROLE WHEN THEY ARE ABOUT TO BE LYNCHED EVEN THROUGH THEY HAVE TWO DAYS OF STRONG EVIDENCE AGAINST THEM IS BAD PLAY BLUE JUST FUCKING TERRIBLE.

WOULD YOU PREFER A NO LYNCH

ALL CAPS MEANS I'M SUPER SRS

so herr didn't want to vote a bulletproof, has no issue sitting behind a doc lynch.

this game.

This. If we lose it's not surprising.

If lalendra isn't lynched today I'm replacing out then I'll come back end game and rub it in your faces she was scum.


Also yes I'm happy with my company on the wagon.

Are you 5?

no becuase you wouldn't vote what I wanted

Yep, you're 5.

Yeah but, Lalendra has claimed Doc and so that's a really bad wagon.

Did Lalendra say who she protected night one?

I did.

no she didn't she forgot that in her fake claim you think a doc would mention that.

You sure are confident in my scumminess for someone who hasn't read all my posts.

I asked her and she said that she protected Mykonian.

Thank you for reading.

P-edit: Didn't realize someone already beat me to hammer. Oh well. I hope Garmr's replacement is a little less petty and will avoid throwing the game in a tantrum (twice).

[Lalendra]

Did we not hammer or something? Why isn't it night yet?

[Lalendra]

Oh okay, no day start pm. Guess I'll be catching up on this later

[Lalendra]

I'm trying to set up a situation that will get lale killed if she's town by scum or lynched as scum or forces scum to protect a town power role to keep lale alive if she's scum

Um, wouldn't your plan work better if you didn't tell the whole world about it?

Basically I'm trying to force a scenario were she gets confirmed or forces her as scum to get lynched or forces scum to leave a confirmed town alive.

I don't understand why you would drop mason tells onto someone that wasn't mason, doesn't really make much sense, imo. I'm pretty sure it's just a strong town read.

Maybe to protect the real mason? i.e. scum knows you're town, so they might NK you if they think you're mason, it protects the real mason? Just a thought.

Feeling better about Keyser being town. Myko can be town until I reread things to make sure, same with DWL. Not sure if the Dier hammer makes him town or if he's just trying to buy town points.

Uneasy about the NK, either scum is trying to WIFOM us or Lalendra is mafia. Not entirely sure why BBT was killed -- I have suspicions, but I want to reread to make sure first.

Who did you protect last night, Lalendra?

Yeah about that - I protected BBT last night so I'm wicked confused. I've never had this happen before, does this mean we're in multiball? Excuse the stupidity but I really don't know wtf to think right now

[Lalendra]

Garmr, what are thoughts on lalendra now?

Lale, did you receive a roleblocked notification?

I did not, hence my serious confusion.

[Lalendra]

I had a strong town read on him already, and then he was a strong supporter of the wagon on Haschel, who flipped scum. Seemed logical that scum might go after him that night.

[Lalendra]

I honestly don't have enough experience with power roles to speculate and contribute anything meaningful. However, if there is a strongman, it would be important to consider a) how many shots he/she likely has and b) why they would have chosen to use their (likely limited in number) attempt on BBT.

[Lalendra]

At least, the MafiaWiki says Strongman is usually X-shot - would it be plausible to have one that's not? I guess with a doctor and BP it could be? But that seems like it would be unbalanced.

[Lalendra]

Sorry guys, work. I promise I will try to catch up tomorrow.

[Lalendra]

Garmr reads the emerging Haschel Cedricson wagon as a scum-counter wagon. I can see town-Garmr thinking this:

tbf, I think this could also come from scum trying to protect his buddy.

Garmr REALLY wants the Lalendra lynch: post 829, post 830, post 837, post 842, post 847, post 854.
This does make me feel that Garmr didn't know Haschel Cedricson was scum.

Could you explain this for me Keyser? Are you saying if Garmr and Haschel were scumbuddies, Garmr wouldn't have had an outburst like that trying to get Lala lynched? Not sure I agree.

I agree with both of these points, this seems less like a town who was unaware of Haschel's alignment, and more like scum actively trying to push a counter-wagon.

At this point, I do not think Meanmelter and Garmr are scum together, but I would wager that there's a scum between them.

So just to be clear, you are saying, since you voted Garmr, that you think Mean is town?

Your only scumreads D2 were people who were either voting you or considering it. See 530. I even called you out on this, and you sheepishly dropped your contrived scumread on me like a bad habit. Your scumread on feli D1 was AFTER he had first scumread you (see 270). Same with myko. Why does this matter? Because it looks like you're only interested in lynching people who want to kill you.

I don't know, that seems like awfully blatant scum behavior, and given that Garmr is (I think) more experienced than that, I'm not sure I agree. I'm starting to believe more that Garmr is just anti-town town, as opposed to blatant scum.

I do not think that defending someone who flipped scum is scummy in and of itself. The way he said he didn't (it was a soft defend, you know this Meanmelter) makes him a scumlean for me. He could of said "I made a mistake thinking he was town" but instead got defensive.
I want to see MM's response to this before I make a decision on my vote.

That is my main problem with Mean as well.

So this makes me think two things you went walls derp and didn't read a thing which is not what a townie should do or your scum buddies with mean melter and chainsawing for him.

I don't necessarily think that glazing over walls when you're pressed for time and/or waxing apathetic about a particular slot is alignment-indicative. Is it pro-town? No. But it's not inherently scummy either, imo.

Also was hoping you had a guilty on her would of made me the happiest chap.

Can't say I blame you there, we all love being vindicated.

Your confusing me dwells because masons come in twos or unlikey threes so yeh.

Sarcasm is lost on this one.

So your saying there's three masons

LMAO this whole exchange is amazing.

I really want Hieirama to cast a vote.

Ookay.
VOTE: Meanmelter
Didn't feel that good about his tunnel, and I did agree with Garmr that there was a bit of misrep in his case. Also, the point Dwlee made about the refusing the defense accusations.

After all this time, and all that's happened, and being pushed for reads/votes, THAT'S IT??

Mod: Fixed at Lalendra's request.

[Lalendra]

I think today I'd like to go with the theory that garmr and mean are the two remaining scum. It makes sense on a couple of levels.

Alrighty, I was gone most of the weekend but I'm catching up now. Wall incoming

Garmr reads the emerging Haschel Cedricson wagon as a scum-counter wagon. I can see town-Garmr thinking this:

tbf, I think this could also come from scum trying to protect his buddy.

Garmr REALLY wants the Lalendra lynch: post 829, post 830, post 837, post 842, post 847, post 854.
This does make me feel that Garmr didn't know Haschel Cedricson was scum.

Could you explain this for me Keyser? Are you saying if Garmr and Haschel were scumbuddies, Garmr wouldn't have had an outburst like that trying to get Lala lynched? Not sure I agree.

I felt like Haschel Cedricson gave out many views/reads on behaviour of many players, but primarily focused only on Lalendra and Hieirama.
Lalendra wins a town point for being the wagon that Haschel Cedricson pushed D1/D2.
Haschel Cedricson did not vote for anyone else he'd given a negative remark on.
Interestingly, I could not find a read/opinion that Haschel Cedricson gave on Meanmelter.

I agree with these statements. I think Haschel's flip looks good for Lala and Hiei, but it makes me nervous about Meanmelter and Garmr.

I'm trying to set up a situation that will get lale killed if she's town by scum or lynched as scum or forces scum to protect a town power role to keep lale alive if she's scum

Regarding this whole thing, where Garmr tries to out the remaining mason(s), I am going like this O.O We don't know if scum have something like a roleblocker or a strongman, which is likely if Lala is actually the doc and tried to save BBT last night. Garmr gets huge scum points in my book for trying to do this against the remaining mason(s)' will, and for making it easier for scum to hunt them down by pressuring DWL to confirm/deny his role. I'm beginning to feel more strongly that Garmr is scum who's just super ballsy with his anti-town behavior. I just don't see town playing this kind of risk, lemme break it down -- If Garmr's wrong about Lalendra, then his 'plan' directly kills two PRs, one at night, and the other gets lynched the next day. Actually, if Garmr is town and felt so strongly about Lala being scum, he wouldn't bother with this whole runaround. He'd just want to lynch Lala today. That way, we would still have conftown more likely to survive until later.

I do not recall you not feeling townie agbout Keyser? You said he was null-town and that he has been under your radar, but I believe that was the last you mentioned of him. Perhaps you mean you are reassured? Especially with those last two statements who you felt are both town.

Yes, I am reassured that Keyser is likely town.

Garmr's post 973 bothers the crap out of me. It's like Garmr has a finger in each ear going "LALALA I CANT FUKING HEAR YOU" and just trying to drive his narrative home.

At this point, I do not think Meanmelter and Garmr are scum together, but I would wager that there's a scum between them.

A quick diversion -- I'm not a fan of Hieirama's 1002 for the same reason I've not been a fan of most of her play so far. So much vague language, so little desire to reread anything or analyze what has transpired in the game. I wanted real answers to my questions in 984, not just fencesitting without having reread the game and without indicating a desire to figure out the game to any depth. I can't take your reads seriously, Hieirama, if you just make posts like 955 and 983 without substantiation, and continue not to substantiate them after being pressured.

So what are your opinions on me, then?

I think that you have tunneled Garmr the entire game, and whether you are town or scum, it has left sort of a blind spot for other things that have been going on. That being said, I can see your push against Garmr as a town push. You have made several good points that I agree with, so that prompted my question to Hieirama when she said "not liking how anti-Garmr Meanmelter is being" in 983. I think there are points in your push against Garmr that appear to be misrepresented (e.g. the phrase at the end of 466 "You went from AFK one line posts to softclaiming out of the blue..." it's not clear whether you were trying to say Garmr was afk before he claimed, or rather that the style of his posts were afk-one-liners.) However, I think Garmr is totally overblowing how all of your posts are "shit" and misreps and strawmen and w/e. I think in your interactions with Garmr, Garmr looks way worse. I think Garmr complains about misreps and strawmen, all the while misrepresenting you and making strawman arguments. So I'm not liking Garmr atm.

Note to self: I should come back to myko's 1027 once I have some more time.

I think today I'd like to go with the theory that garmr and mean are the two remaining scum. It makes sense on a couple of levels.

Could you explain the levels on which this association makes sense? I'm not seeing this conclusion as readily as you are atm. Ever since meanmelter replaced in, do you think the aggression that he's shown towards Garmr is not unlikely to occur between two scum?

Reading Garmr's 1040, ok he's actually making a few decent points here. Like his point about the line from MM's 466. However (let's look at the FACT THAT WASN"T TRUE line), Garmr, you have it wrong. Your only scumreads D2 were people who were either voting you or considering it. See 530. I even called you out on this, and you sheepishly dropped your contrived scumread on me like a bad habit. Your scumread on feli D1 was AFTER he had first scumread you (see 270). Same with myko. Why does this matter? Because it looks like you're only interested in lynching people who want to kill you. Your scumhunting revolves around yourself. It looks like you're looking inward, not outward, and that is scummy.

The mafia are NOT killing people who see you as town. I do not recall BBT calling you town,

This is actually not true. BBT was pretty sure Garmr is town. Just look at his interaction with Garmr at the end of D2. And his 636, he outright said that the Garmr wagon was bad.

Holy crap this back-and-forth between Garmr and Mean is painful. It's basically Garmr going, "Mean did this," mean replies "No I didn't," then Garmr goes "Yeah you did." For the record Garmr, if you make claims about someone, the burden is on YOU to prove their validity. If you claim that Mean "says i provided no reads or anything," and he denies saying that, then it's your responsibility to show where he in fact said it. If you claim that Mean "tried to dispel my reads as only people that scum read me," and mean says he did no such thing, it is your responsibility to either show where he in fact said it, or admit that you're lying. Your 1045 just looks like you're trying to back yourself out of responsibility of claims you've made against mean. "really can't be bothered with these anwsers as they do nothing to change my points," well your points don't mean much if they're false to begin with. As scum, this makes complete sense, because you're using hyperbole to fabricate a case to get someone lynched. If you're town, it just means that you are lazy in how you throw shit around, making claims that aren't verifiable, exaggerating because you feel a certain way about a slot. I'm leaning towards the former.

VOTE: Garmr

Ugh, Mod, please fix the formatting. That was a quote, not a vote.

[Lalendra]

Also wasn't supposed to be a big quote there. Driving the struggle-bus tonight.

[Lalendra]

Garmr reads the emerging Haschel Cedricson wagon as a scum-counter wagon. I can see town-Garmr thinking this:

tbf, I think this could also come from scum trying to protect his buddy.

Garmr REALLY wants the Lalendra lynch: post 829, post 830, post 837, post 842, post 847, post 854.
This does make me feel that Garmr didn't know Haschel Cedricson was scum.

Could you explain this for me Keyser? Are you saying if Garmr and Haschel were scumbuddies, Garmr wouldn't have had an outburst like that trying to get Lala lynched? Not sure I agree.

I agree with both of these points, this seems less like a town who was unaware of Haschel's alignment, and more like scum actively trying to push a counter-wagon.

At this point, I do not think Meanmelter and Garmr are scum together, but I would wager that there's a scum between them.

So just to be clear, you are saying, since you voted Garmr, that you think Mean is town?

Your only scumreads D2 were people who were either voting you or considering it. See 530. I even called you out on this, and you sheepishly dropped your contrived scumread on me like a bad habit. Your scumread on feli D1 was AFTER he had first scumread you (see 270). Same with myko. Why does this matter? Because it looks like you're only interested in lynching people who want to kill you.

I don't know, that seems like awfully blatant scum behavior, and given that Garmr is (I think) more experienced than that, I'm not sure I agree. I'm starting to believe more that Garmr is just anti-town town, as opposed to blatant scum.

I do not think that defending someone who flipped scum is scummy in and of itself. The way he said he didn't (it was a soft defend, you know this Meanmelter) makes him a scumlean for me. He could of said "I made a mistake thinking he was town" but instead got defensive.
I want to see MM's response to this before I make a decision on my vote.

That is my main problem with Mean as well.

So this makes me think two things you went walls derp and didn't read a thing which is not what a townie should do or your scum buddies with mean melter and chainsawing for him.

I don't necessarily think that glazing over walls when you're pressed for time and/or waxing apathetic about a particular slot is alignment-indicative. Is it pro-town? No. But it's not inherently scummy either, imo.

Also was hoping you had a guilty on her would of made me the happiest chap.

Can't say I blame you there, we all love being vindicated.

Your confusing me dwells because masons come in twos or unlikey threes so yeh.

Sarcasm is lost on this one.

So your saying there's three masons

LMAO this whole exchange is amazing.

[quote="In

I really want Hieirama to cast a vote.

Ookay.
VOTE: Meanmelter
Didn't feel that good about his tunnel, and I did agree with Garmr that there was a bit of misrep in his case. Also, the point Dwlee made about the refusing the defense accusations.

After all this time, and all that's happened, and being pushed for reads/votes, THAT'S IT??

The thing I bolded and made larger doesn't really agree with your vote, imo. You cast suspicion onto garmr but then vote mean when one of them is most likely scum.
I agree that the scum out of those two is meanmelter but you contradict yourself in a small way.[/quote]
That wasn't a vote, I pointed that out in my next post.

[Lalendra]

Oh, I did not see that it wasn't a vote lalendra.
I knew it made no sense.

No worries, it was my own fault.

[Lalendra]

@Dwlle, Dierfire, Keyser, Garmr
So what are you guys gonna do D4 when I flip scum?

Wait...what? Did you just admit to it? I just...what???

I'm okay with putting this one at L-1.
VOTE: Meanmelter

[Lalendra]

Mean, a claim would be good.

[Lalendra]

Hmm, interesting - I thought Meanmelter was going to roleclaim a PR.

(Roleclaiming VT basically makes laying the hammer easier)

Wouldn't that be a good reason for scum to claim a PR? This actually makes me think he might be town - but not really enough to unvote him - as scum he might KNOW that this would earn him town-points and also he can't be CC'ed - SO MUCH WIFOM

[Lalendra]

Hi Aj! Please do stuff!

[Lalendra]

AJ, after reading the thread in 2.5 seconds what do you think?

Pft, it only takes 1.6 seconds to read it, so he's had plenty of time for analysis.

[Lalendra]

Aj, if you want to lynch me why didn't you vote me?