Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]

[Dwlee99]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

[A Simple Plan]

Vote Count 1.3

[4]

Hieirama - Keyser Söze, Dierfire, herrcombs, Felissan[L-3]

[3]

Garmr - mykonian, BlueBloodedToffee, pistachi0n [L-4]

[2]

mykonian - Garmr, Lalendra [L-5]

[1]

herrcombs - Haschel Cedricson [L-6]

[1]

Felissan - implosion [L-6]

[1]

Lalendra - Dwlee99 [L-6]

Not Voting -

Hieirama

Deadline - (expired on 2015-10-06 12:00:00)

Keyser Söze is on V/LA through Sunday, 9/27

Mod is V/LA through Sunday, 9/27. Will attempt a VC sometime during my absence, however.

[Hieirama]

@Garmr
WB!
Glad to see that the vacation helped.
Reading that, my Town read on implosion gets a bit stronger too; I need to review Dwlee...
Eager to see your thoughts on Myko's play when you've been gone.

To be honest I'm starting to have doubts mykos scum. I'm starting to believe he may really be that crazy to believe what he is saying and I don't really want to believe someone who act like that in town exists...

Whoa, okay.
I have a hard time believing that he actually is. From his play so far it looks like intentional...
Or that's his destructive tactic of scumhunting ._.

Alright, a few notes, written as I get caught up.

Okay, we're out of RVS. Fine.
But let's look at Garmr's ISO -
21 - RVS
24 - "Honestly don't see anything scummy so far"

Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town.

So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally.

This is a horrible misrepresentation.

Not really. Dwlee was making a sarcastic point.
Myko said Garmr was trying to "call someone Town", and Dwlee stated the actual meaning of Garmr's message.

(Negative vibes)

Their posts can be looked at from so many different perspectives.
Either they're joking about their reasons, they actually have a reason that no one can figure out atm, or your just trying to mess things up with herrcombs.

Which one was it, Hischel? I'd like to get this out of my head.

Ooh, questions for me! Questions I see no reason to answer!

You're so helpful.

This is an alt account, but I've been playing for a little over a month. I've played three games, this is the first one outside RtR.

What made you want to create an alt account so early?

Should I go back to lurking or?

Are you saying you were intentionally lurking?

This was supposed to be a Mod account... But since I had to wait till its three months old I thought why not play some games.

I was only posting when addressed, and I wanted to get into the bigger arguments so I jumped in with a readlist and myko hated it. That's my attempt at a sarcastic reply.

[mykonian]

oh, you have to be able to see the pattern now. Garmr's response to being run up has been one of frustration. He starts out confident but as that happens we start with threats, it actually backfires, he retracts from the game with his claim and how he doesn't care. Insults were just the next thing to be expected. He doesn't have any arguments and his little mind has no other ways of dealing with this than to become personal.

I think looking for a motivation behind such posts is a waste of time. It hasn't come from a rational choice. It just shows you what kind of person garmr is.

[Hieirama]

What makes you think this is scum and not newb town?

hadn't considered it at that point.

the tell does work for newb scum but itsn't as watertight.

The thing that's really throwing me for a loop here is hier's view of the garmr's case. If she's (this is starting to bother me btw, are you a he or a she?) scum it's so incredibly blatant. I can't think of someone who'd play on ms for a couple of games who didn't run into a scum getting caught via defending a town too hard, it's just something that has been meta for a while now.

Hard is a shortcut btw. Where defense of a player goes from arguing why you think they are town to scum buddying and faking it is that scum tends to come from the position where they already know said person is town. As soon as that becomes obvious, said scum tends to get into trouble... and hier here does it without even considering alternatives. When you catch scum with it, you push the accused harder and at some point it transitions from just arguing into knowing they are town and using that. Here hier basically starts out from that viewpoint.

why? I don't have a clue.

(You're right, a she.)
This makes sense.
I did consider an alternative a little bit, though.

But, to insist, bring in the scenario that he was scum. You've must've gotten really lucky for finding scum by the word "honestly". That's like... Kinda unlikely, and its not what I'd like to go with currently.

It's just not the case I'd prefer to believe. I'm not trying to throw away chances.

[Haschel Cedricson]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, this is a vote for lurking, yes?

[Dwlee99]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, this is a vote for lurking, yes?

Kind of. They never answered my question and then promised a post but never delivered.

[Lalendra]

Okay, computer is finally done installing-then-uninstalling-then-reinstalling-updates, I slept, I'm caffeinated, and I'm all caught up. Wall incoming.

[Dwlee99]

Windows 10 only took a few hours to download for me.

[Lalendra]

Mykonian – Really still want to know why you thought 18 was a scumslip, and I don’t know how to interpret you dodging the questions about this one. As Keyser pointed out in 45, your case on him as scum was based on him buddying and protecting, which he wasn’t because he didn’t name anyone and we were still in RVS.
This has been beaten to death and probably isn’t relevant anymore but I just needed to get it out there.

Spoiler:

51 just doesn’t make any sense.
Garmr: Honestly don’t see anything scummy
Myko: Garmr committed a scumtell.
Dwlee: So saying he doesn’t see anything scummy is a scum tell?
Myko: how is that your conclusion after that post. It’s not even close to the message I put up there.
THAT’S LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID. Yet somehow that “makes everything dwlee says worthless for [mykonian] from now on.” Please explain to me how any of this makes sense.

Perhaps the thing that bugs me most about myko is that I don’t actually think he’s scum, but he’s the scummiest town I’ve seen in a while if that’s the case. *sigh*
UNVOTE: myko

Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.

Herrcombs – Re: your read on Soze’s 142 (in 169), I don’t necessarily feel like it’s anti-town to point out soft-claims, because it’s usually a pretty good indicator of scum imo. A town player wouldn’t really feel the need to soft-claim unless they were under a LOT of pressure, which I don’t think he was at that point in time.

I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.

This is interesting logic, but something feels off to me about it, too. You say "players voting DWL are more likely to be Mafia." More likely than what? Than random? Using this logic with no supporting scumreads gives a probability marginally better than random to find scum. It's kinda like a really weak process of elimination, and it feels strange seeing it as the sole justification for a vote so early into the game.

I think his logic makes sense. Players voting DWL are more likely to be mafia than are others voting for some other player. The answer to your question is literally in his post. I think it’s actually fairly good logic for so early in the game, when we have little else to go on.

Dwlee99 – Reads as town to me due to the level of analysis that he’s engaging in. He’s being proactive, not reactive, and I particularly like the exchanges with myko. Though they are diametrically opposed in a lot of ways, in terms of playstyle and reads, I think they're both town.

Implosion – Why did you think Dierfire + Hieirama scum team in 23? Re: your case on Garmr (leading up to 195), I don’t necessarily agree but I like the way you are approaching the analysis.

Haschel Cedricson – Do you feel like explaining your weird cryptic interaction with herrcombs in 9? It might not even be relevant but I'm curious and I find it odd that people just forgot about it in the wake of the Garmr fiasco.

Garmr – “Honestly” was interesting, but I don’t think it was as much of a scumtell as everyone seemed to think it was. 96 also feels to me like he is being overly-defensive town, I really don’t think that it is a scummy post. But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

I got promoted (yay), worked a crapton of OT this week (boo), fell behind, and when I finally had some downtime and was ready to play last night, my computer decided to derp hard and spend two hours installing/uninstalling/reinstalling windows updates. But here I am now. I think that the rest of this post answers your questions but if it doesn't let me know.

P-edit: @dwlee, Congratulations. I hadn't turned mine on in a month so it had some catching up to do.

[pistachi0n]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Mykonian – Really still want to know why you thought 18 was a scumslip, and I don’t know how to interpret you dodging the questions about this one. As Keyser pointed out in 45, your case on him as scum was based on him buddying and protecting, which he wasn’t because he didn’t name anyone and we were still in RVS.
This has been beaten to death and probably isn’t relevant anymore but I just needed to get it out there.

Spoiler:

51 just doesn’t make any sense.
Garmr: Honestly don’t see anything scummy
Myko: Garmr committed a scumtell.
Dwlee: So saying he doesn’t see anything scummy is a scum tell?
Myko: how is that your conclusion after that post. It’s not even close to the message I put up there.
THAT’S LITERALLY EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID. Yet somehow that “makes everything dwlee says worthless for [mykonian] from now on.” Please explain to me how any of this makes sense.

Perhaps the thing that bugs me most about myko is that I don’t actually think he’s scum, but he’s the scummiest town I’ve seen in a while if that’s the case. *sigh*
UNVOTE: myko

Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.

Herrcombs – Re: your read on Soze’s 142 (in 169), I don’t necessarily feel like it’s anti-town to point out soft-claims, because it’s usually a pretty good indicator of scum imo. A town player wouldn’t really feel the need to soft-claim unless they were under a LOT of pressure, which I don’t think he was at that point in time.

I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.

This is interesting logic, but something feels off to me about it, too. You say "players voting DWL are more likely to be Mafia." More likely than what? Than random? Using this logic with no supporting scumreads gives a probability marginally better than random to find scum. It's kinda like a really weak process of elimination, and it feels strange seeing it as the sole justification for a vote so early into the game.

I think his logic makes sense. Players voting DWL are more likely to be mafia than are others voting for some other player. The answer to your question is literally in his post. I think it’s actually fairly good logic for so early in the game, when we have little else to go on.

Dwlee99 – Reads as town to me due to the level of analysis that he’s engaging in. He’s being proactive, not reactive, and I particularly like the exchanges with myko. Though they are diametrically opposed in a lot of ways, in terms of playstyle and reads, I think they're both town.

Implosion – Why did you think Dierfire + Hieirama scum team in 23? Re: your case on Garmr (leading up to 195), I don’t necessarily agree but I like the way you are approaching the analysis.

Haschel Cedricson – Do you feel like explaining your weird cryptic interaction with herrcombs in 9? It might not even be relevant but I'm curious and I find it odd that people just forgot about it in the wake of the Garmr fiasco.

Garmr – “Honestly” was interesting, but I don’t think it was as much of a scumtell as everyone seemed to think it was. 96 also feels to me like he is being overly-defensive town, I really don’t think that it is a scummy post. But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra
Never answered my questions. Says in 235 they'll make a more exstensive when their computer turns on yet it has been 13 hours since that post with no post. Should probably just FoS but idc.

I got promoted (yay), worked a crapton of OT this week (boo), fell behind, and when I finally had some downtime and was ready to play last night, my computer decided to derp hard and spend two hours installing/uninstalling/reinstalling windows updates. But here I am now. I think that the rest of this post answers your questions but if it doesn't let me know.

P-edit: @dwlee, Congratulations. I hadn't turned mine on in a month so it had some catching up to do.

Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.

First off, assuming he's telling the truth it makes perfect sense to not specify a power role. Second, doesn't lynching anti-town instead of scum screw over the town by compunding things even more?

Also, I asked you which mykonian posts were full of crap and all of the posts you talked about were post 51 and earlier. Is there a reason for this?

[implosion]

as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.

As Haschel pointed out this is a bad philosophy (or at least I agree with him, I've seen some players give arguments for PLing on day one, but I think they're bad). Being anti-town may be "as bad as being scum" (although I'm not quite sure what that means) but that doesn't mean wasting a mislynch on someone you think is town (especially a power role) is going to further the town win condition.

Implosion – Why did you think Dierfire + Hieirama scum team in 23?

It was mostly sarcastic but it did have a nonzero basis. I voted Dierfire originally because he ignored a naked vote on him, and then Hiei said "there goes the wagon" when there were 2 people with 2 votes and 1 with 3 which seemed nominally odd.

[implosion]

He doesn't have any arguments and his little mind has no other ways of dealing with this than to become personal.

You know, you responding by insulting him doesn't exactly give you the moral high ground.

[mykonian]

He doesn't have any arguments and his little mind has no other ways of dealing with this than to become personal.

You know, you responding by insulting him doesn't exactly give you the moral high ground.

Never claimed to be a saint. My interaction with dwlee should already have changed your expectations.


Because morals are nice and all in gd but they have nothing to do with this. After garmr throws the towel 3 days into this game, "needs a break" the best thing he can come up with is to call his main attacker names. Beyond what this says about garmr as a person, in this game it's a clear sign of impotence. It's just more defensive posting, it doesn't even pretend to be scumhunting, just this time he doesn't even bother breaking his head over coming up with arguments.

So why do you bother telling me to become a better person, in stead of just playing the game and voting garmr?

[Dwlee99]

UNVOTE: Lalendra
The list has arrived~

Back to Garmr for the reasons I was already on the wagon before I switched to Lalendra.
VOTE: Garmr

[Hieirama]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

I doubt a coward would do it.

[pistachi0n]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

I doubt a coward would do it.

Okay, fine, it either takes guts or it's scum who wants to gain town points.

[Dwlee99]

It takes guts to stand up for players being wagoned.

No...it really doesn't.

I doubt a coward would do it.

Okay, fine, it either takes guts or it's scum who wants to gain town points.

But why would town care what other people think? Why not just defend the person you think is town?

[Garmr]

Welp My scum list goes a little like this at the moment (Will do them one at a time starting with the biggest scum first)

Lala -

Garmr – “Honestly” was interesting, but I don’t think it was as much of a scumtell as everyone seemed to think it was. 96 also feels to me like he is being overly-defensive town, I really don’t think that it is a scummy post. But then along comes 171. What is the purpose of this post? Why say you’re a power role if you’re not willing to say what? Why claim when no one asked you to? Why so cryptic? And then you just give up on the game. Anti-town at best. Don’t play if you’re just going to totally screw your team by playing poorly and then giving up. I dislike PL but this is the wagon that I am most inclined to pursue at this point, because as Hieirama pointed out, being blatantly anti-town is almost as bad as being scum.
VOTE: Garmr

This here is a extremely poor reason to vote me and a total misrep. It's pretty obvious I was going for a gambit with out saying my power role to get scum to shoot me also I never gave up on the game I just needed a little break to clear my head about things and read other peoples reactions. The way your potraying me here seems like a scummy excuse to vote someone and say they are town at the same time. Then you try and play it off as a policy lynch which you even said yourself you don't like doing.

I dislike policy lynches, because even if someone's being anti-town, they're still a town player who is alive. I'd rather garmr replaced out and we got someone else who was worth something, but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

I'm on mobile at the moment but I'll make a more extensive post when my computer decides to turn on.

P-edit: was it really necessary to quote a wall for a one-line comment?

But that doesn't even add to the fact that you haven't even tried to look for scum this game. Sure claiming something like bp maybe a little antitown but I was originally going for a gambit which i stressed out and befuddled and I'm actually trying now and shown intention.

You haven't even bothered to scum hunt this game and are just giving out town reads to most players or asking questions. You haven't made a firm stance on anyone yet. You have plenty of time to get a scum read which you haven't so. Your play also seems like your trying to duck under the radar while 259 seems forced and contradicts what you said in

There's a difference between not scum hunting, and just not posting walls and pointless read-lists. If you have questions I'll answer them, but I typically wait until I feel like I have a solid case on someone before I say something, rather than making lists of leans and nulls.

VOTE: Lala

[Garmr]

Felisan-
I had pretty much a null read on feli till this post

Mod, could we get a votecount? I'm starting to get consused right now.

Since the last time I could be active in-thread, mykonian has pretty much redeemed himself - I can see how him being trigger-happy on the early-game poking is just a tactic to get more info, and he's pretty much done his best to shape the debate to encourage people to be more active and speak of the important topics. I'd still like him to answer some questions that were asked a long time ago, and some posts still feel unnecessary in the middle... (I'm looking at you, 172...)
UNVOTE: mykonian

I've definitely got a scum read on Garmr now, but I'll put it on the back burner for now - I'll wait for it to be really blatant before wanting him dead, we wouldn't want to lose a legit PR if it turns out we're wrong, even if it's just a BP.
My read comes from a few points: first, his original mykonian vote just felt overly defensive, and he stood on the wagon for no more explicit reasons than that early read from him. Second, he's been pretty agressive about the myko wagon, in particular with 96 and 173 - it sounds like he expects people to join his wagon for great justice without even considering the fact that we may have different reads on myko, which just sounds like a lazy approach to scum-hunting. And of course, his claim was just the icing on the cake - spontaneously claiming a PR is apparently not something that's particularly scummy, but if he was meaning to soft-claim in 96, why did he immediately claim when questionned about it? And why did he claim BP right after that, even though it breaks the whole purpose of being one?

For now, my vote will go somewhere completely different...
VOTE: Hieirama
The wording in some of his posts just has a feel of uneasy scum (constantly insisting on whether his play is scummy or not, worrying too much about not doing enough) - I mainly think of these lines:

I made that readlist, you're right, to contribute a little bit more than a one-liner. I'm not sure how that's scum-oriented?

Scum can casually give opinions on recent events too, though, its not just a Town thing.

-snip-

Kind of. I'll restate it: "I'll attempt to form an analysis even though I don't fully get what's going on, because it's much better than lurking around."

I'd like to put a bit more pressure on him, hence my vote.

He quickly says he has a scum read on me yet he doesn't explain it but then goes he could be a legit power role so I don't want to vote him now. This feels like scum to me waiting to be around the end of the wagon just in case it blows in smoke and puts his vote on the wagon that is actually building up at the time when a lot of controversy is surrounding mine. He does mention a few points but tbh I think he through out more points towards me than heirama. His vote on heir doesn't really push them to get more answers out of heir.

Also his scum list so far just consist of the biggest wagons at the time I can defiantly see a scum agenda here.

[Garmr]

I'll do the last one latter

[Dwlee99]

@Garmr 269: That post reeks of OMGUS. You're wrong on a few things there. First of all, your "gambit" was not very clear. Your gambit makes sense if you didn't decide to completely ruin the entire thing by claiming BP. But you did. Second, you say Lalendra has done no scum hunting and yet they did in the post you quoted. I liked that wall but m'kay about your opinion.

[Dwlee99]

@Garmr 269: That post reeks of OMGUS. You're wrong on a few things there. First of all, your "gambit" was not very clear. Your gambit makes sense if you didn't decide to completely ruin the entire thing by claiming BP. But you did. Second, you say Lalendra has done no scum hunting and yet they did in the post you quoted. I liked that wall but m'kay about your opinion.

[Garmr]

@Garmr 269: That post reeks of OMGUS. You're wrong on a few things there. First of all, your "gambit" was not very clear. Your gambit makes sense if you didn't decide to completely ruin the entire thing by claiming BP. But you did. Second, you say Lalendra has done no scum hunting and yet they did in the post you quoted. I liked that wall but m'kay about your opinion.

Omgus is a overused scumtell that is entirely worthless and to be afraid to state your opinion about how you feel about someone makes you failure as a town so that's why I don't care for it.

Second you like it but can you tell me who laendras scum list is or why she is satisfied staying on someone who she considers anti town instead of scum hunting. This isn't scum hunting this is just placing people as town reads and throwing worthless questions at people with out commiting to a scum read so she can breeze through a policy lynch. Learn the difference.

Also it is pretty clear looking back and doesn't take much brain power to process hint at a power role then leave it at that. But some idiot decided to blurt it out in the open which no one should do (town or scum) if they think someone is a power role so I just confirmed it then gah You can start to see why I got pissed off. But it does make perfect sense. Me ruining it through doesn't make sense for scum either because I could of played it off for longer and then burst it out latter on. Also I could of done a better fake claim like 2 shot hider so I can explain why scum didn't shoot me and confirm people as town and possible confirm a scum mate as town as well.


Also you didn't criticize my second scum read so do you see the logic in that?