Open 37 - Crush Nightless (Game Over) before 477

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Mneme

call it women's intuition.

[Battle Mage]

with only 3 of us here, this game is gonna be a riot. quick, help me run up Mneme. :p

[Battle Mage]

lol i like the way that you both used the 'i don't play on weekends' argument so defensively.
I was actually kidding about the inactivity.

Unvote, Vote: Distad

[Battle Mage]

ooi-is the lynchers target necessarily town?

[Battle Mage]

lol how could it be a tell? I'm trying to evaluate whether the Lyncher could be of benefit to us. Obviously knowing that its target is town, proves that he isnt, but had it been possible for his target to be scum, that mightve been useful.

[Battle Mage]

I was just giving you a hard time.

lol. unfortunately i think it killed activity. :p

[Battle Mage]

omfg

unvote

wtf was distad at L-1 for

this isn't atall consistent with you, 1 page later, putting Ms Piggy at -1 with no reasoning given.

Unvote, Vote: Pickem

[Battle Mage]

Am I missing something? I thought piggy was l-2 right now.

QFT

Ms. Piggy is at L-2

bah, i should know better than to trust the poster above me :p
nonetheless, my vote stands solely for the unexplained BW vote.

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Mneme

obv scum.

[Battle Mage]

I'd like to hear QMan's view on Mneme/Ms Piggy, before we end the day.

[Battle Mage]

yeh i see your point. Ideally, killing the GF today is the way to go. Of course, with a choice of killing the Lyncher or the Goon, i think they are both about equal. Both give us the same number of enemies. Lets face it, the Lyncher's sole aim is to kill a protown player. That means his natural ally is the scum. If i was confident Piggy was the Lyncher, i'd have hammered her already. But I'm not.
Mneme deserves some pressure imo.

[Battle Mage]

i think Mneme is pretty likely scum, courtesy of his post on Piggy, which whilst criticising her -1 on Distad, did exactly the same thing to her. Mneme is far too wise a player to commit such hypocrisy and risk the game with it. I'm not even ruling out Mneme-GF, trying to bus Piggy-Goon.

[Battle Mage]

thats a good point actually. its hard to see Piggy taking OMGUS to THAT extreme...

Unvote

but still

Fos: Mneme

[Battle Mage]

yeh i think you are right. On closer inspection, her OMGUS vote on Mneme could just be anger at being bussed. Ms Piggy is the sort of person who would let that get in the way of her victory i think.

Vote: Ms Piggy

[Battle Mage]

I don't think it really matters. We can't kill the Lyncher today anyway, as that means the mafia win by default. Just out of interest, what makes you think you are the lyncher target?

BM

I'll say that Qman is the lyncher, because he wasn't on the townie BW.

And

It makes sense for him not to be on any wagons except his targets.

Understanding you are just putting out ideas, saying I'm the lyncher just because I didn't take part if a mis-lynch is WIFOM.

Yeah... I know...

So like, you don't deny it?

[Battle Mage]

Okay.... that REALLY sucks.

No more random voting. A mis-vote could lead to a mafia quick-lynch and game over.

So...

1 GF
1 Goon
1 Lyncher
1 Target (pro-town)
1 Townie

LOS:
1) Battle Mage (I'm sure most of you have me up here also, though)
2) Qman (Cpt. Lurker, just sitting there, watching us tie her up)
3) Mneme (the "pro-town" point was brought up by my #1 subject... admitted lurking in 54 and then came through with some veiled logic)
4) Pick-em (nothing since 57, a quick one-line retort after Piggy's OMGUS vote).

you haven't really explained why i am at the top of your LoS.

My LoS looks a bit like this atm:

1. Mneme-Ms Piggy coming up town doesnt really allay my suspicions of him. Rather it seems like an opportunistic scum move. Probable Scum
2. Pickem-Hasn't really done or said anything suspicious, up until this discussion between him and QMan about the Lyncher. Was on the Piggy wagon. Neutral
3. Distad-Basically, i'm just getting a strong protown vibe from him. I do feel a bit gutted that i was led into voting Piggy yesterday, but Distad's comments have made a whole lot of sense so far. Probably Town
4. QMan- Personally, i find it nigh on impossible for a member of the Mafia to avoid taking part in a mislynch in this setup. There's no real reason why he wouldn't have hammered sooner, as there was clearer justification for doing so. Probably Town.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Bah. I was hoping Piggy was scum -- or at least the lyncher (which would have helped us a lot, giving us an innocent and much higher odds of finding the GF/goon today).

As it is, yes, finding the lyncher is only useful in terms of trying to figure out who his or her target is (the target must be innocent).

Pickem, why do you believe you are the target?

Re my bringing piggy to -1 ...well, you have to do it to someone eventually, you know.

More later -- must go to a work meeting.

I don't understand this. How would finding the lyncher, give us a confirmed innocent?

@Distad-you are probably right-we both share the blame in lynching Piggy, but i dont think that means that those already on the wagon, should not take some blame too. The only person who it doesnt reflect badly on is QMan.
Speaking of QMan, i think you have a point. I know he is a very capable player as scum, and he often stays quiet-something he has done successfully here. He should still be considered a suspect today, however imo, he's the most protown looking player here.

[Battle Mage]

no, i meant the bit where you said that you had hoped Piggy was the Lyncher.

As it is, yes, finding the lyncher is only useful in terms of trying to figure out who his or her target is (the target must be innocent).

I don't understand this. How would finding the lyncher, give us a confirmed innocent?

Er... see above.

If we identify both the lyncher and the lyncher's target, then we know two players that are -not- the GF nor the goon (and have much better odds on picking the GF/goon from the remaining players).

The only person who it doesnt reflect badly on is QMan.

It's no credit, in an info-less game, to avoid an innocent lynch. It may reflect good intentions, but it may also reflect prior knowledge.

Q-Man might be a goon or GF (in which case, the lyncher was masking by joining the Piggy lynch). Or he might be the lyncher, avoiding a lynch which didn't help him win (which would mean both mafia were on the piggy lynch).

Or he's town, of course.

[Battle Mage]

i really dislike this discussion between QMan and Pickem. It almost seems that Pickem is trying to get both QMan and himself security for today (as lyncher, and target). I'm also not buying your explanation for thinking you are the lyncher target. I reckon thats just what you want people to believe, so you don't get lynched today.

FoS: Pickem

[Battle Mage]

sorry, you've lost me here. You think I'm the lyncher, and Distad is my target?

no, i meant the bit where you said that you had hoped Piggy was the Lyncher.

The lyncher is theoretically easier to find than the scum.

Lynching the lyncher via target identification gives us a confirmed innocent (because the lyncher's target is always innocent). Lynching the GF is even better -- it gives us a free kill on the goon (but it's also harder).

My current suspisions:

distad: target. The reasoning that lead us to thinking Piggy was the lyncher still applies to BM and Pickme.
BM: lyncher. Too many questions about the lyncher makes me think he's trying to figure out how his role works.
Pickme: scum
Qman: scum

Between Pickme and Q-man as GF, I'm not sure -- pickme's fingering Q-Man as lyncher (not mafia) gives him a free pass on lynching Q-man, but is still essentially a bus. So I could see it pointing to Q-man as GF, but it's not really indicative (and the whole tactic of bussing a partner is usually done from godfather to goon, for good reason; the fact that pickme is attacking q-man, who isn't fighting back, points to pickme as a GF bussing his partner).

[Battle Mage]

pray tell what gave you that impression?

[Battle Mage]

err wtf? I didn't put Distad at -1. How the hell was i supposed to know that Piggy would BW aswell?

as for your comment on the lyncher mechanics, i haven't played a game with that role in before. To me, it made some sense if the Lynchers target could be any affiliation, as obviously, a Lyncher could be an asset.
My intention ofc was to work out whether we the lyncher was necessarily someone who we needed to lynch, seeing as this is a small game, and with the Lyncher against us, we begin in LyLo to some extent.

fyi, i don't think i am the lynchers target. If i was, i'm pretty sure i'd be dead already. I expect i'm the non-target townie. My thoughts are that Distad is the Lyncher, and perhaps that QMan is his target (he placed him high on his LoS).

BM

You voted me day 1, then switched to distad for a while and helped run him up to l-1. Then you helped run up Piggy, and focused back to me today.

If you are the lyncher, your target is either me (a bit too obvious, but still) or distad (subtle, but effective), or someone else (in which case, you're being -very- subtle, but that's not impossible, just out of character ).

The reason I think you're the lyncher, specificially, is all your questions about the lyncher and how he or she interacts with the rest of the game -- many of which were very odd.

In specific, your comment about how the lyncher was less helpful if they could have a scum target was just bizarre -- as it inverted the real relationship (the lyncher is far more dangerous to the town if her target can be scum (can lose via a scum lynch) and far more helpful if her target must be town). This seems to be more a question of how to play the lyncher card than how to play -against- the lyncher.

[Battle Mage]

not that i disagree with your vote Pickem, but would you care to provide explanation of why you are CERTAIN that Mneme is scum?

[Battle Mage]

yeh, there is certainly a discernible connection between Pickem and Distad-pushed mostly by Pickem. Of course, whether or not they are scumbuddies is a different story, as it is quite possible that Pickem is trying to tie himself to a protown looking player.

I'll

Vote: Pickem

for now. also

FoS: Mneme

@Mneme-Please stop using that damn WIFOM argument, which tries to imply that you are confirmed town. Last time i saw that used was by Sarcastro-scum in Consulmaker.

Actually, come to think... Pickem, you seem to be playing really hard at being the lyncher target, when you haven't had anyone really pressing for your lynch, it makes me wonder if you are trying to get ye ol scum to quicklynch your target for the win. it's been 2 days, still no reasoning. I'm starting to think you are trying to duck answering it for a reason.

I would like for distad to explain his case against me more clearly, you are saying that I can't use NOT voting in the mis-lynch as a defense, yet you use that very reasoning to attack me as scum. As far as I've seen this WIFOM is your only voiced reason for suspecting me.

As well you accusing me of sitting by while you all mis-lynched, then when I show I said it was a bad idea (not sitting on my thumbs and sitting by watching), you use that as the basis for your further suspicion. The more I look at it, the fishier it seems.

fos Pick, distad

[Battle Mage]

ah welcome Xyzzy. Atm, i have some concerns about a Mneme lynch.
1. its basically unanimous at this point. As such, Mneme is certainly not the GF, and probably not the goon, unless the GF is dumb and decided to bus.
however, its going to be tough to get support for any other lynch today. As such,

Unvote, Vote: Mneme

.

[Battle Mage]

wow nice!
I definitely wasn't expecting Mneme to come up GF! lol
For the record, i'm not the lyncher. I'm also pretty sure that i'm not the target. That leaves a choice of which one of you two has gone after the other the hardest. I'll reread and post my thoughts tomorrow.

BM

[Battle Mage]

A lot of early voting between the 3 of us. Pickem puts an early vote on Distad. Distad then votes for me. I then place a vote on Distad. Post 16 by Distad is an odd one. Its merely a joke about being the lyncher target. However it could ofc be an attempt to suggest him being protown. Pickem takes his vote off Distad when he sees him at -1. That just doesn’t seem like something he would do if Distad was his target. Pickem makes several comments about the lyncher, but they don’t seem unreasonable. On the other hand, Distad then changes his stance, retracting his accusation of Piggy being the lyncher, instead suggesting that he was someone elses target. Protesting too much perhaps?
Distad then comments (rightfully) that if Pickem was the lyncher, Distad wasn’t his target. He also tries to place suspicion on me for my post 32. 2 posts later, he backtracks. Pickem puts Piggy at -1. Distad questions his vote, while trying to appear supportive of it.
On the next page, Distad changes his story again, this time to Piggy being the Lyncher, and him being the target. Distads reaction to Piggy coming up town is a little odd. His LoS does answer a few questions though. He puts me at the top, and Pickem at the bottom. Pickems suspicions are again of me and Mneme, with QMan as his choice for lyncher. He seems very certain that he is the target. Then he interrogates QMan, who is pretty non-commital. With hindsight, this was probably because he wanted to keep his claiming options open, however at the time it looked like Pickem trying to get himself an alibi. Then comes my LoS. I was right in having Mneme at the top, but I was dead wrong about QMan. I found it pretty hilarious when Mneme did his LoS, as he thought I was the lyncher and Distad was my target, which I really can’t see. My two top suspects throughout the game have been Mneme and Pickem. I could sort of understand suspicion that I was the lyncher with the latter as my target, but Mneme’s accusation made zero sense to me. Anyway, Pickem then places an aggressive vote on Mneme. Pickem continues to accuse me of being scum, whilst maintaining that Distad is probably town.

In conclusion, my reread has changed my mind about some things. I now think that it is quite likely that I am the target.
I mean look at it this way. If Pickem is the lyncher, it is unlikely that Distad is the target, as he has maintained that he is protown, and avoided lynching him when he had the chance. Similarly, if Distad is the lyncher, Pickem is probably not the target, as Distad placed him bottom of his LoS. Knowing that I am not the lyncher, I feel its now pretty likely that I am the target. Both of you placed me as high on your LoS, but only Distad has yet to threaten a vote on me today. I’d like to see Pickem’s analysis of our situation before going as far as voting, but for now:

FoS: Distad

[Battle Mage]

lol yeh i remember

[Battle Mage]

WHERE IS Pickem? this is not the time to lurk...

[Battle Mage]

i dont understand what Pickem means about setting a trap. However i do have an idea. If we lynch the lyncher today, we win right? Well if we lynch the townie who ISN'T the lynchers target, we still win, i think. Because the lyncher won't be able to get a majority and lynch his target, thus he fails, and the town succeeds.
So basically, all we need to do, is make sure we don't kill the lynchers target. According to Distad, that makes PE the best play, as you claim that he is definitely not the target?
Of course i'm not too sure about that specifically, but i'm confident that we have some room to manouvre here.

BM

[Battle Mage]

lol do i detect backtracking? a minute ago you claimed this to be the one impossibility.

FoS: Distad

i dont understand what Pickem means about setting a trap. However i do have an idea. If we lynch the lyncher today, we win right? Well if we lynch the townie who ISN'T the lynchers target, we still win, i think. Because the lyncher won't be able to get a majority and lynch his target, thus he fails, and the town succeeds.
So basically, all we need to do, is make sure we don't kill the lynchers target. According to Distad, that makes PE the best play, as you claim that he is definitely not the target?
Of course i'm not too sure about that specifically, but i'm confident that we have some room to manouvre here.

BM

This is certainly interesting.

Hmm...

It's too early for me to vote, certainly... but that just set off soooo many alarms that you're the lyncher and PE is the target.

I need to go back and look at a few things again.

There really isn't much wiggle room at all...

[Battle Mage]

i think the answer to your question lies in post 150, where you claimed there were only 3 scenarios that you would consider.

[Battle Mage]

yeah. And I recall having a reason to saying that there were only 3, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why I didn't include the 4th reason.

Assuming that I cannot eventually remember, I have to presume that the 4th reason is legitimate; in that case, your analysis set off that alarm.

Also, I don't believe that the town wins if we kill the non-target townie. The lyncher doesn't meet his objective, but the town doesn't either...

actually thats a good point. That means that if we kill the non-target townie, everyone loses.

[Battle Mage]

we need to get this right. I'd like to see the long awaited vote table from Distad. Then i shall reread my notes, and comment further.

[Battle Mage]

well, i'm rerereading again now. Going in with the assumption that i am the target, i have to say that Distads early play is alarming. Not only does he make an effort to validate his random vote on me (which nobody else did) he also tried to cast suspicion on me with a particularly odd post on Page 2.
So far, Pickem has yet to cast a vote for me, and is either playing an incredibly slow game, or probably isnt the lyncher. His play actually looks scummy, as he clearly has an intent to survive, but as we are dealing with a Lyncher here, and not a mafioso, i think i can see him as more protown-looking than Distad.

I need to read the remainder of the game, but i'm currently leaning towards a vote for Distad.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Having said that, post 162 doesn't show Pickem in a good light...
hmm, i'm not entirely sure which of you is the lyncher atm.

[Battle Mage]

surprise surprise lol. I figured as soon as i suggested suspicion of you, you'd OMGUS me. However, in your favour, you do bring up some pretty valid points in favour of Pickem. If Pickem is the lyncher, he can already win, so there is no reason not to

Vote: Distad

.
Assuming Pickem is town, i can only hope that he makes the right decision.
BM

If you want to look at those two isolated instances totally out of context, yeah, it looks bad. But, considering the flow of the game also, they are both completely reasonable, IMHO.

I'll even be open about where I plan to vote. I'm looking at you, BM. I highly doubt that PE is the lyncher, now.
1) He unvoted quickly when I got to -1. This is either an incredibly cool move on his part or VERY town.
2) He has never voted you. Not once. Again, this would have to be an INCREDIBLY cool move on his part.

I understand your concern that I could be the lyncher, but it's not supported. My vote on you was in the random stage and I threw out a comment (note: NOT a vote) on your questioning the role, both very reasonable.

On the other hand, YOU voted for PE on D2. The only other votes from all 5 of us alive were on scum.

I said that I would wait for both of you to respond, but short of an admission, I can't figure what PE would say that would change my mind on this. Further, I think your 171 is just OMGUS.

Vote: BM

[Battle Mage]

lol i have a game we can play. Guess who my target was.

[Battle Mage]

Tbh, i'm genuinely surprised that Pickem trusted me on that. Distad has a habit of reading me well when i am scum, and again, i felt you were almost certain to trust him.
There again, i can see the logic for your vote. I played a tricky game, and all things considered, i'm fairly happy with the result.
I'll let the mod reveal my role.

BM

[Battle Mage]

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hang on a second there. You told me that if the non-target dies, NOBODY WINS. The town fail to meet their win condition of eliminating all threats, the mafia are dead, and i fail to get Pickem lynched. So everyone loses. Or at least, thats what you told me via pm.
You arent seriously telling me now that i blew the game over wrong information!?

[Battle Mage]

WOAH WOAH WOAH. Hang on a second there. You told me that if the non-target dies, NOBODY WINS. The town fail to meet their win condition of eliminating all threats, the mafia are dead, and i fail to get Pickem lynched. So everyone loses. Or at least, thats what you told me via pm.
You arent seriously telling me now that i blew the game over wrong information!?

EBWOP: Crap, i read your pm wrong. Sorry about that.
Ah well, i was never going to be able to lynch Pickem anyway. But i was kinda hoping for at least a tie by getting Distad killed.
Still, i think, aside from my actual win condition, i played pretty well lol.
Really enjoyed the setup too.

Good Game.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Pickemgenius was the

target

ORLY?

YA RLY!