Open 585: Jungle Republic (ended)

[Metalcyanide]

Bigger post coming later

Curious about that bigger post if you have the time

[West9]

Smaller posts coming as I try and chip away at the stuff I'm not getting.

Pk, I'm sorry, but I still see Cheet as town.
His brazen, guns-a-blazin' tactics are usual for him, and when asked, he does tone it down as much as possible. It's just his style.
He is still entitled to get offended by things. I don't even get why that would be a tell.
I have also often seen him take a break from a game to calm down as he does get really into them.
None of this is alignment indicative.

If none of this is alignment indicative, why the townread?

Lyserg, I think we've gotten into the "fuck reading Lyserg's walls" portion of the game. Where are you at with your current analysis & question asking?

[West9]

HAHA WHOOPS accidentally made a wall after saying I'd be doing shorter posts.

I saw something and decided to look into it. That turned up something I almost/had missed and then I started comparing people to Lal. Since I was also suspicious of Cheetory, I compared him to Lal together instead of alone. I searched for searchword 'lal' to identify her posts/references.

Specifiics may or may not have to wait until later.

What was this?

I'm not sure how somebody who can be as borderline rude as you with your aggression can pose as offended. I don't believe you were upset my push, rather you needed an excuse to back out and cool your head. I'm positive this is within your abilities.

This very probably isn't what happened.

VOTE: Farside
I officially don't trust you anymore and I want some other people's opinions on your play this cycle.
The disparity in how you chide people for wolfhunting feels intentional and forced and it feels like you're hard sidelining what's going on here in a way that I feel like townFarside wouldn't be doing right now.

I don't get this vote.

So I was hoping to have more of a post for this but there is nothing I'm seeing that convinces me that Pisskops theory on Cheet is correct. I'm not seeing how you think Cheet is wolf or was coaching Lal at all. The only thing I see is that Lal jumped on a few of his points and he wanted her to get an avatar.

Why so dismissive?

True enough, I don't like his suspicions much. Accuses people of lurking, or being overdefensive, very straightforward and simple things, metal sounds like an overeager newbe. He's enthusiastic though. He's not afraid to answer questions badly, which I like.

Not sure how long Metal's been playing, but I think it's long enough for him not to be a newbie. Maybe D2ers with more knowledge about this should double-check me.

VOTE: Metalcyanide

I'm fine with this.

what happened with that westscumread? I was looking forward to you getting back to that.

I'm not gonna sheep you on wolfCheet is what I'm saying. I think Metal is at least a decent compromise of possible wolf suspicion while also being someone who's done things that bother me in a more general sense thou, so from your pool, I'd choose him.

What are those things?

So I went back and read up on Far. He's playing a very good game. Lots of interaction & questions, staying consistence with his questions and responses. I have to say that he town, or really really good scum

her

[West9]

Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.

Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.

Eh. Was kind of worried that I might have missed a point somewhere along the way, but she also says this:

Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

Is she really going back against your points if she later admits to this here or do you think she would blatantly backtrack like this?

Skimming past thread, and the exchange that created these two quotes stood out to me. Has anyone really talked about this aspect of the Ginko/Lal D1 interactions? Where Ginko's scumWest argument causes Lal to jump ship on Ari, and then later Ginko defends her erratic voting? It seems like Pisskop kinda skimmed past in his iso, but this is a thing I'd like people to talk about, as it's really the only time Lal interacts with Ginko at all.

[West9]

These parts in 335 confuses me the most:

So basically Ari's wagon still sucks

Why does the Ari wagon suck?

I don't like that both Metal and Lalendra are on it.

The big thing that I don't like about the Lal wagon is that Ari is on it, but I can look past that. Just felt like my last post would've been a weird and not-ideal time to put her at L-1. I'm not opposed to a Lalendra lynch (though I think I'd still prefer an Ari one) so I'll throw a vote down in a day or so.

So his biggest gripe with the Ari wagon is two different people. His biggest gripe with the Lal wagon is one person, but he can look past it. But then ultimately he would prefer the lynch on Ari? I get that not liking people on a wagon isn't the same as liking or disliking a wagon in general, but it still seems like an odd progression to me, especially with all he said in 304 about it sucking.

If I had to guess, I would say he is the other wolf, but I'm much more confident in Ari as scum.

Haha, I forgot about this. I should address this, though I didn't have much to say about it other than I didn't see how thinking that there was scum on each of the two leading wagons was bad or wrong. Didn't, and still don't, understand how it lead to a wolf read. Maybe pisskop can explain that to me for acryon.

Actually, now that i'm thinking about it, I'd love to hear pisskop's thoughts on the Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory

[West9]

Metal, I feel like we somehow stopped talking about how you were spinning my not voting for Lal as a defense of her so that you could justify your scumread on me. Let's get back on that.

Hey, that reminds me, I still think you did this.

[Metalcyanide]

So I was hoping to have more of a post for this but there is nothing I'm seeing that convinces me that Pisskops theory on Cheet is correct. I'm not seeing how you think Cheet is wolf or was coaching Lal at all. The only thing I see is that Lal jumped on a few of his points and he wanted her to get an avatar.

Why so dismissive?

I didn't see anything to the case, I'm open to a scum Cheet (previously mentioned) but this wasn't something that convinced me of it.

So I went back and read up on Far. He's playing a very good game. Lots of interaction & questions, staying consistence with his questions and responses. I have to say that he town, or really really good scum

her

Oops my bad. Sorry Far

[Metalcyanide]

Metal, I feel like we somehow stopped talking about how you were spinning my not voting for Lal as a defense of her so that you could justify your scumread on me. Let's get back on that.

Hey, that reminds me, I still think you did this.

And I still think it's a good theory on why you didn't vote for Lal, along with the rest of the conversation we had that I really don't feel like repeating.

[West9]

1003 do anything for ya? How about my first paragraph of 915?
And I sure would love an answer in which you use quotes from the game along with analysis to show why certain points and arguments aren't interesting you.

P-EDIT: So you really think I was trying to defend Lal?

[Metalcyanide]

1003 actually makes the case of Cheet not coaching Lal more for me

Ginko:"Is she really going back against your points if she later admits to this here or do you think she would blatantly backtrack like this?"
Why would anyone point this out if you're scum buddies? Answer you wouldn't, or at least shouldn't.

When did I ever say you defended Lal?

[farside22]

West: remind me who you are scum reading and why.
Same question to lyse.

[Aristophanes]

I apologize again for a proddodging post.
I will be here in a few hours.
May still be a quicker post, but it should at least address current stuff and questions.

[Cheetory6]

I don't like Cheetory backing off of pisskop and saying "that OMGUS was bad". That almost sounds like he's a robot with no emotions.

It's more that I've been trying to catch myself more when I'm being a dick in games and me being that focused on something semantic like his use of coaching was dumb/reactionary.

VOTE: Aristophanes
I don't really have any strong reads right now. Ariscum makes the most sense to me, but I'd be willing to compromise pisskop or farside vote if the momentum was there.

I don't get this vote.

It seemed like farside was intentionally sidelining pisskop and I arguing. Still kind of feel that way and I keep getting semi-bad feelings about the way farside's reads have shifted this game. I might just be being paranoid, but it feels like farside's been coasting and it bugs me.

Even for a reactionary player, don't you think the lack of commentary on your and Vyse's case for Acryon was weird (when considering he had a scumread there and that was presenting itself as an alt to the Lal lynch, who Metal was vocal about townreading)?

Hard to see these sorts of things when you're in an ISO. I guess this is true? I honestly don't really know what the scum motivation or town motivation would necessarily be in either case though. It just kind of strikes me as weird in general.

Btw, your spoiler button text opens with quotes but never closes them and one of your post-links doesn't point to the right place...listen to me Keely, you'll get an F if you botch it a third time~

*skips Lyserg's mafia class* FUckin' nerds.

Ari because without him attaining more of a conf-town status I can't see many people voting someone other than him during a LyLo situation, specially if Mafia is the last scumteam standing; Metal the same to a lesser degree, but also because lynching him feels helpful to the PoE of wolves and generally aiding the seer, which is something I was OK with not completely focusing on right now

I more or less agree on Aristo. Can you elaborate on Metal though? Like, I just don't really think he's scum and half of the pushes for him strike me as being a little bit too easy in a way that I don't like. You're one of the few people I feel pretty confident on being town right now, so I'd appreciate if you could like try and help me understand where you're coming from on this particular point.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

I blame animu and catching up with podcasts... just realised it's 6+ AM here and I don't feel close enough to finishing my post/doing the amount of re-read I wanted to, and West's already complaining about walls (sorry <.<, I guess this forum's wider text-box sorta fools me into thinking the posts aren't as long as usual...).

Dropping some stuff, I'll respond to the questions tomorrow because I want sleep (questions from West, Cheet and farside noted).

Either they are voting and then quickly unvoting, or outright defending, or championing rival wagons.

Sorry, I still don't get it =/. Ari didn't do this with Lal at all (nor vice-versa). And in the case of Cheet/PK and Young... I guess Young sorta did that vote/unvote thing with Ginko and Jordan championed Metal/PK (where he preferred Metal)(?).

@West: What's up with asking PK to respond for Acryon? I get it if you defend when someone brings up you maybe being wolf, but at this point you are on the offensive about getting people to know you are not scum. Not expanding on this so as not to put words into PK's mouth, but the question about Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory also reinforces that more-than-overdefensive feeling.

Also, yeah, I feel Metal is out of that zone where people should give him newb passes for whatever.

@Cheet: Will go more in depth later, but, in the pragmatic side of why I like that lynch, you saying the pushes are "too easy" is kind of an answer to that question.

@Prawneater

: The "farside is town" is because of a hard townread you have? Tell me your thoughts about the wolfCheet case too or just PKvCheet in general, please.

@farside: You never got back to me about the thing that you liked about wolfMetal theory :c. Atm, the "who" side of your question is: Ari, Metal and PK with a tentative of West. Will respond to the "why" part later.

[farside22]

Lyse: This was the post I was talking about that Ari made about Metal. It was also in regards to West.
I thought about it a bit more and more as the game went on and Lal's flip.

I'm going to make a few post in a row.
First up is to Ari

OHEY! I'm actually here now and have a chance to do that thing I said I would do.
I passed out really early Monday and was out Tuesday, so I apologize. I wanted to do something though, so I voted Metal to see what would happen.

Of the responses, I like Lalendra's the least. I actually had a kind of scum inkling on Metal, but this is much better than I expected.
VOTE: Lalendra
She switched so quickly to a scum read on me and her best argument thus far was "West made a good point, I just didn't see it before" which just sounds off to me. I feel like she was just waiting for a good moment to pounce, and I gave it to her.

I still don't get the reasoning for thinking [insert name here because I don't feel like checking right now] was a Warewolf specifically. Seems like badly veiled "third party hunting" or whatever you wanna call it to me.

As a side note, if she is scum I could totally see it being herself and either West or Metal. I was in a game with her not too long ago (her first game on the forums) and we were both scum. She left a really big trail leading back to her scummates (Gliffie could've vouched for this, but is gone now) (Hi Young!!) in agreeing with them/us, especially when we said vague things, like this whole West business. As for Metal, that hard-defense (at least, that's how I read it) when I voted him just seems so overboard, as if she panicked and is just trying to get rid of me. Couple that with West possibly distancing himself from Metal as scum by grouping Metal and myself, I could totally see this being the three Mafia Goons being really messy on D1.

I was just ninja'd by West and Lalendra and would like to note that she also avoided reads on her fellow scummates, but when she was pushed into it, gave weak-to-strong townreads iirc in that game I just mentioned. Just fyi all.

This post is something I wanted to see if others agreed was true about Lal.

@Everyone: In #115 I said "I

see

that you were baiting us." not "I

saw

that you were baiting us."
I know it may seem insignificant, but I never claimed I reacted because I knew what he was doing. This was a remark after the fact where I acknowledged what had happened.

I know it's late and I'm tired but I had another question for Ari: what about my play is striking you as "messy?" That's something I haven't heard yet

I was theorizing out loud moreso than accusing. If you, Metal, and Lalendra are scum together, the grouping is being messy about it. You specifically have not been messy. I suppose this was more myself putting an FoS than anything else.Of the three, you're lowest on my scumdar.

Ari: I think your reason, testing waters comment is crap.
I agree that lal is scummy.

k, what does this mean? I'm open to a conversation about this if you like. Not that I have much to say. Whatever floats your boat though.

I don't believe you knew Orc was testing waters. I pointed out 3 post you made that shows why I think you are BS'ing about knowing better.
Also I have not heard anything about other scum reads with reason's about others.
You have a bit wishy washy from others when asked about your reads.

Ari – as Acryon pointed out in 181, there is something off about his play in this game. The “I posted a vote on metal just to see what would happen because I didn’t have time for a real post” could be legit, but doesn’t ring true. When he finally came back to the game after being away for a bit, he tunneled in on me, West and Metal, without really saying anything about anyone else until later. That could have just been because he was pressed for time. The stuff West said wasn’t particularly vague, so his point about me leaving a scumtrail also didn’t ring true. Seems like he’s just picking out parts of my meta that will implicate me in this, to plant the seed of doubt with everyone, without creating any real solid tie-ins. Also this:

As for the New Years thing, yeah, I remembered that conversation and was somewhat wary of quicklynching when I came into D1. I wanted to test the waters with this crowd though regardless.

It was a fun time! I have no clue if there was something significant I was supposed to remember though...

Reconcile these two statements, if you can.

So, here we go.
I did post the metal vote to get reactions. I didn't have the time for a full post and didn't want to half-ass it, so I set that up. I wasn't expecting anything. I just wanted an honest reaction from people. I think you're just bitter that all this has turned on you because of it.
I also was pressed for time, as I have been most of this game, when making that post. I still agree with my read, though I'm most confident on you as scum. If you're not, I will definitely reevaluate things. I'll also probably be lynched D2 if I am wrong. It's a risk, but I feel you're scummy and am just theorizing in case I do take a bullet.
Reconciling the statements is easy. I remembered the conversation specifics when they were brought up. They were in the back of my mind when I started this game. By the time he asked about it, I couldn't think of anything that could be related to this game. I saw where he was going once he stated his point. I mean, that's basically what I said at the time. I don't get what feels off about it, but fill me in if there is anything.

Toss shit my way if you guys like, I'll be here for another hour I think.

If it was a reaction test and you only get one bite and nothing more then it gets just one. It's also the one you have focused on since.
As I said prior I think you are both scum here but from different groups.[/quote]

[Aristophanes]

@Lyserg
In that Ladd post you quoted a bit ago, that was in fact myself posting (Brandon really wasn't fond of it tbh).
It's a sentiment I still hold. I either need to be lynched at some point soon or trusted as town, because in a Lylo situation I don't want to lose us the game by being an easy lynch-to-victory for scum.
I still like my Cheet townread. I'm not married to it, but it's one of the more solid ones I have.
His play is what I expect from him as town and I haven't really seen much to change that.
@West, I mentioned those non-alignment-indicative things because they were arguments against Cheet that I didn't think should have been, not because I thought they made him town.

@Pisskop
What in Rampage's 5 posts there makes you think him lynch-worthy? I don't get that.

Your tone wasn't even clearly serious there, so it comes across as feeling especially sleezy to me. It seems to me like he only talked about it later because you set him up to do so.
^Everyone should make an effort to read this part of the game because I'm pretty sure West is setting Ari up here.

I hadn’t really noticed this disparity in West’s argument before, thank you for pointing it out. I’m not sure if it was West setting Ari up, or Ari stumbling/backpedaling – it still reads more to me as the latter, but it’s possible that your interpretation is spot-on.

Do you think that everyone thinks that naked votes are null? Also, she doesn't just say it's the naked vote, as she also points to finding West's points more convincing after reading them again.

I think it's really telling that she went back on this point as well, though.

Eh. Was kind of worried that I might have missed a point somewhere along the way, but she also says this:

Also the reason my reasoning for the Ari vote contains little of your argument is because I was given so much crap for agreeing with you and disliking the naked vote that I felt I should put together more solid points instead of going "yeah, what west said."

Is she really going back against your points if she later admits to this here or do you think she would blatantly backtrack like this?

Skimming past thread, and the exchange that created these two quotes stood out to me. Has anyone really talked about this aspect of the Ginko/Lal D1 interactions? Where Ginko's scumWest argument causes Lal to jump ship on Ari, and then later Ginko defends her erratic voting? It seems like Pisskop kinda skimmed past in his iso, but this is a thing I'd like people to talk about, as it's really the only time Lal interacts with Ginko at all.

See, this is the kind of thing that I can maybe get behind in a Cheet scum read.
I'm not sold on the idea, but I suppose I'll consider it.

@Farside, I don't get what this posts means. Please reexplain why this quote is here for me, since apparently I'm dumb right now.

[Aristophanes]

Black shit was supposed to be a spoiler.
Why is there a "Spoiler" and a "Spoiler=" option when the just plain "spoiler" one doesn't even fucking work!?!?!?

[pisskop]

What in Rampage's 5 posts there makes you think him lynch-worthy? I don't get that.

ABR is typically a very concise player who discloses almost no emotion and can even come across as 'cold'. Just go read a couple of posts from any completed game he was in.

[Honey bee]

Vote count 3.05

Metalcyanide (4):

Aristophanes, farside22, prawneater, pisskop

Aristophanes (2):

Lyserg-Zeroz, Cheetory6

Cheetory6 (2):

West9, Albert B. Rampage

Not voting: Metalcyanide
With 9 alive It takes 5 to lynch. Day ends in: (expired on 2015-02-24 08:22:00)

*Prodding Prawneater*

[prawneater]

Prodge.

[Lyserg-Zeroz]

@PK: I know I criticized him, but still do address West yo.
@Ari:

Ari please.

That quote farside posted is because she said you said something about Metal/Lal interactions that made her think of maybe wolfMetal, and then I asked her about it. On an unrelated note, you said you were going to get into the info-lynching argument or whatever but never did (I mean, I can't give you towniepoints for that stuff if you say you are gonna expand on that but don't).

@Cheet: The other part of the pragmatic side of the argument is just reducing the pool of people I can see as wolves.
As for stuff on Metal that bothers me (@West) (Blabla walls, sorry, I've made worst :c ):

Spoiler:

- Her treatment of Lal, particularly, his first actual read of her (broken into two section for rhetorical purposes):

Okay but seriously, she is playing a very noob or very elaborate game (damn English major). I've read her posts several times am having trouble following her train of thought. She oddly defends me from Ari by voting for Ari. Justifies the vote more by pointing to West's reasons. Lal, has anything changed for you since Ari has answered your question? Who is your next scum read.

I don't get how this, concludes with this:

My read on lal is noob town atm

"Noob" has no reason to mean newbtown here and everything else he is saying doesn't strike me as any sort of reason to think she is town. I don't necessarily expect him to scumread her here, but after the first section I'm sorta assuming he was going to say he was wary or something, Ari is also right when he says Lal has used reasoning from scumparters before so that's also something that feels like Metal should've been more wary of when mentioning how Lal used West's reasoning.
 
  It reads to me like an unjustified jump to a newbtown read. There is questioning, but the questions seem fairly innocuous relative to the other Lal was undergoing. This can be read as a product of irl friendship, but that's a lame way to dismiss this, specially because townMetal actively pursued scumLal in the Madoka game. End of 336 looks decent, but Imma be petty here and not give him townie points based on that because I tried continuing that conversation and Metal didn't. He saying that Lal was defending him when Lal's argument was that Ari was scum with him also feels somewhat scumslippy, but eh, slips... thinking about it Lal's behavior around Metal is also a weird, when the topic is Ari she argues at some points that Ari's naked Metal vote could've been scum distancing, but when the topic is Metal she just townreads him and makes no mention of that bussing idea (maybe double check me here because I just quickly ctrl-f'd "Metal" on her ISO to verify this thought).

- Sidelining the Acryon wagon. I mean, I get what you are saying, I feel like I can come up with scum motivations, but that feels like conf-biasing myself into it. My problem is that I also don't know why town would just be like that. Ugh, maybe I'm being too unforgiving of possibly busy/lazytown?

- Conversation about Acryon during D2 ...eh, screw quoting... relevant posts: 507(Me), 511(Metal), 531(Me), 533(Metal), 536(Me), 592(Metal), 594/612(Me), and finally 634(Metal) and 648(Me). ... In retrospect, I feel like I failed to convey to him what I wanted out of the conversation during the middle sections of it >.<, but whatever, look at this or ISO us in parallel and tell me your takeaway (maybe avoid the rest of this paragraph before reading it because biases). This is what I meant when I said I felt he was dodgy about Acryon during D2, in that I feel the analysis of the slot beyond what he already had on D1 is almost completely lacking. I was initially bothered that he didn't really follow up on 648, maybe it was my fault for sorta closing the convo there when I said that the problem was "already engraved in my mind"(?), but I did try to make a final push to engage him about it.

- I agree with you about the "deeper" reads thought but I feel like this didn't really carry over from D1 that much, some stuff that has come up after that feels born out of other people prodding him. Had some problems with his read on you that I already mentioned. I also feel the lurkscum thing for both Gliffie and Young was just cheap, but they were scum, so whatever <.<.

@farside: The "why" (trying to make it fast from now on): Ari, because associative read, questioning that gave me off vibes to Metal (the timer thing) and Acryon during D2 (the Acryon one was sorta resolved but it still felt off... "leading" I guess) also him misrepresenting Acryon (591, I feel the last part as misrep-y), feeling dishonesty out of his read on me regarding my reaction to his nakedMetal vote, and I'm also sheeping Cheet on the opportunistic votes point. Metal is up^ there. PK, mostly because of my grips with Acryon during D2. West 'cause at some points I feel he exaggerates points or goes overboard with his attitude, but it's really mostly gut.

Ninja'd by vote count and Prawn. Oh yeah, Metal is at L-1 =P. Intent to hammer and all that jazz. I want to have this convo with Cheet before endday if possible, so hammering when there's ~24 hours left (last day taught me that less than that starts being way too close to deadline here .-.)

[Metalcyanide]

Mostly a prod dodge here.
I see I'm at L-1
VOTE: Ari because of previously mentioned reasons and the hope you guys come to my side on this. But if you don't see you guys later

[Cheetory6]

- Conversation about Acryon during D2 ...
This is what I meant when I said I felt he was dodgy about Acryon during D2, in that I feel the analysis of the slot beyond what he already had on D1 is almost completely lacking.

Is the gist of your thoughts here that pisskop/Acryon and Metal might be scummates? Because if so I can follow how you get to that point, I just don't really like.. agree? It's possible, I just don't think it's likely.

I agree with you about the "deeper" reads thought but I feel like this didn't really carry over from D1 that much, some stuff that has come up after that feels born out of other people prodding him. Had some problems with his read on you that I already mentioned. I also feel the lurkscum thing for both Gliffie and Young was just cheap, but they were scum, so whatever <.<.

I think his scumreads this cycle have had a little meat behind them?
I'm honestly not sure whether this is true, but if I recall Metal's meta correctly, going after lurkers doesn't really seem all that weird to me from him?

Like, I get the wagon on him and it doesn't surprise me, but I just don't feel like this is a scumlynch. I really don't.

[West9]

When did I ever say you defended Lal?

I thought that was your theory about why I didn't vote Lal. That I was trying to defend a wolfmate.

West: remind me who you are scum reading and why.

Metal for scuminess behavior that I don't feel comfortable writing off as "newbie."
Ari for Young associations.
Cheet for Lal associations.
Pisskop as residue from Acryon scumreads.

^This is in order of confidence. I could also add ABR for those Vyse wolfreads I had priviously. Ari and Metal are really the only ones I'd be comfortable killing at this point.

@West: What's up with asking PK to respond for Acryon? I get it if you defend when someone brings up you maybe being wolf, but at this point you are on the offensive about getting people to know you are not scum. Not expanding on this so as not to put words into PK's mouth, but the question about Metal/Acryon wolfWest theory also reinforces that more-than-overdefensive feeling.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but the question comes from a place of me being unsure how to go about reading Pisskop. Thought a question like that might help.

My vote on Cheet doesn't really feel like it's doing anything at this point, and this seems like a bad time to end the cycle. VOTE: Ari

[West9]

Ah, hm, actually, not sure I like having two wagons at L-1. VOTE: Cheet