Mini 451 - Totally Awesome Mafia, Game Over

[Hjallti]

Random vote:

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[Hjallti]

@ Off the mark [46]
I'm not online in weekends and the last weekend included monday. That's ahy you heard nothing. By the way you were allready complaining on saturday????

[Hjallti]

unvote:

FoS: Nekka anyhow, but I want to evaluate more carefully. I'll post again tomorrow morning normally.

I think it is no good for the game and for town that some people allready complain for being off a weekend...

[Hjallti]

Here is an analysis

First of all I think Nekka's behaviour is very newbie, so I wouldn't have a clue if it is bad town play or bad scum play. After reading through everything I don't suspect him any longer at this point.

This leaves us a game with not a lot to talk about: the reactions on Nekka's play seem ordinary, and leaving them away there is only one theme discussed: alleged lurking.

I got a little upset because I did follow the rules (saying that a absency should be PM'd to the Mod rather than being announced publicly), and already after 1 day playing I'm called to duty, while I already did post.

So the only scummy thing around so far, IMHO, is that someone using the difference between number of replies (reply 46, while mine was 17) and time to reply maybe, makes a strange comment only 20 hours! after my random vote:

Off the Mark post 46:

We haven't heard anything from this guy, except for his intial random vote, so I'm going to Vote: hjallti just to get him talking.

This seems to me very odd!
The rather strange remarks from him afterwards let me vote for him! (to let him speak )
By the way note that this is not OMGUS, first of all he is not voting for me, and moreover my point is that he clearly wants to point to my absence at a moment I had played in the last 24 hours!

vote: Off the Mark

[Hjallti]

So I guess I have to respond to the baseball analogy of Off the Mark, which ends with saying that post 112 made it scummy to him... a vote count? WIDE 1

On strike 1.
I read a game where ~n9v~ lost the game for town by being to overactive as a newbie, I guess the effect of this at the beginning unmotivated pressure on Nekka made him over defensive, as newbies tend to do. I see no proof in his posts that his action do something else than that. Wide 2

On strike 2.
As being a newbie myself, and still getting adjusted to the pace of the game, it indeed was upsetting to me, that after 20 hours already I got this post, it would have been different if it occured on sunday and monday. wide 3

On strike 3
You clearly didn't (want to?) get my point on voting you. I am not voting you for having attacked me, as I explained it was not OMGUS, I voted you for having put up the fog argument that I hadn't played in a long time. Your post was scummy objectively, and is the only scum part we have left if we believe Nekka is town.... Wide 4...

I think it is rather scummy to misphrase arguments and make them sound different...

[Hjallti]

@ Off the Mark: It seems so akward to me that you still tend to miss the points I'm making, while you are trying to make so much out of them...

First of all, when I realized the game might probably not start before friday 12 am CET (something like 6 am server time) I read the game rules:

- Treat this game as a commitment. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than 48 hours, please place a notification in the game thread or by PM to the mod.

Since the game thread was not open yet I PM'd the mod, I'm scummy to you because he forgot about that and told everyone afterwards. Good point Mark

My first sentence in the second part relates to the fact that Nekka's behaviour is rather similar to that of ~N9v~ in the game I referred to, making me believe, just like a lot of others told in the thread already that his behaviour is not 'scummy' but 'newbie', without conclusion between newbie-scum and newbie-town, as far as that part of my logic goes.

The strange part is, you seem to be the only one who thinks Nekka looks less scummy than me. Gee, I wonder why that is.

I don't know what others think, and probably you don't either. 8 of us don't say anything about either of our (your nor mine) scumminess, so your remark seems rather strange.

By the way, you seem to be happy that the discussion revolves over you, me and Nekka.... you seem to be the one reverting all talk from the rest of us...

[Hjallti]

Oh, by the way, I already explained why I got defensive on the time remarks... if it might be scumtell for experienced players, it isn't for newbies!

[Hjallti]

As Off the Mark rests his case, and I will be away for the weekend
I guess I'll better

unvote : Off the Mark

(keeping eyes on you)

I hope A Papaya answers the obvious question in the mean time:

Can you give indication on why you believe NL 'is most certainly scum'? (I would guess that you should actually explain your position, and not just say something like 'OtM explained already' or worse 'it is obvious')

[Hjallti]

At this point it seems the experienced player Off the Mark leads the discussion still in one direction N-L, a guy with strange behaviour that (in my opinion) could be interpreted both ways (newbie-tell or scum-tell). As a newbie I find it hard to decide which or to clear my mind to say something like 'it is impossible that a townie would say that'.

Therefor, for now, I keep with not voting.

[Hjallti]

Looking back on everything so far with Nekka it's like his first reactions under pressure are very easy to be interpreted as being normal reactions of a newbie (pro-town or scum), but it is not rational that he keeps being nervous if he is town. Together with the strange reactions if he is townie, I'm convinced that he is scum.

vote: Nekka-Lucifer

[Hjallti]

Risking to sound overdefensive again I would like to answer boby's analysis by just saying that any action out of the next 4 of me could be explained as a scumtell, in my opinion, and even regardless of what N-L turns out to be when lynched.

a) Posting without voting: N-L scum: I don't want to lynch a buddy; N-L protown: I didn't want to bandwagon
b) Voting N-L: N-L scum: creating distance; N-L protown: opportunity
c) Not posting: Lurking, while active in the week normally
d) Voting someone else: see a)

This means that someone who is convinced I'm scum would be likely to find more proof in that post and that means that proof is false.

Therefor I have a conclusion, which I will address after the ***

I want to re-explain why I think I helped town most by choosing b), in other words why I think N-L is scum. I started with defending myself in the first pages because I felt attacked, and not because I needed to (in hindsight). I think I started to understand that at some point and stopped defending, because I have nothing to hide anyway. Since N-L is in the same situation (at some point we were both at some 3 votes), he should have realized the same and he didn't, from there I stopped believing he was newbie-town, thus I voted.

(by the way I would like to hear if ~N9V~ agrees on this point because he's been there)



***
Allthough there is no proof for me being scum, and as far as I know no point made hasn't been addressed. I clearly made some mistakes by overeagerness, which could cost town a player tomorrow (a pretty useless newbie but a townie anyway)

[Hjallti]

I feel bad about this of course. I thought Nekka (if town) would do the same is me: realizing that the winning was not about surviving the game, but let scum that, and thus see that all that defensing was harming town, but he didn't. I overlooked the fact that he was only 14. If I were 14 I would have kept defensing.

The bad thing about day 1 is that all the conversation revolved around Nekka and me, due to OtM pressuring us. In fact, we don't know much about the other 7 alive anyway.

Before going further I have some stupid newbie questions:

Is this right?

It is now Day 2
With 9 alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

What kind of possibilities do we have with those 2 nightkills on townies?
(Sk+mafia)
(two groups of mafia)

[Hjallti]

I feel bad about this of course. I thought Nekka (if town) would do the same is me: realizing that the winning was not about surviving the game, but let scum that, and thus see that all that defensing was harming town, but he didn't. I overlooked the fact that he was only 14. If I were 14 I would have kept defensing.

The bad thing about day 1 is that all the conversation revolved around Nekka and me, due to OtM pressuring us. In fact, we don't know much about the other 7 alive anyway.

Before going further I have some stupid newbie questions:

Is this right?

It is now Day 2
With 9 alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

What kind of possibilities do we have with those 2 nightkills on townies?
(Sk+mafia)
(two groups of mafia)

[Hjallti]

First of all, I modded a (real life) game where after a daylynch we were at 1SK, 2 mafia and 2 town, and guess what... town won. So lets hope that we get mafia rather than SK first. (The SK could claim, I wouldn't vote on him.... today (in the case I would believe the claim)).

I have another question for ~N9V~
Why did you never use your newbie experience (getting lynched day one as town, because you were overdefensive) to defend NL?

Reason for my question: It is so obvious you were doing the same back then. (for those who wonder, as said before, at some point I was convinced Nekka should have changed tactics if he was town, but I think at his age that kind of abstraction failed him)

[Hjallti]

While waiting the answers I

vote: ~9NV~

. My question was answerable in 30seconds so I don't get the reason he had to think on it till tommorow.

[Hjallti]

I wondered.... after day 1 I had a scummy feeling about Lowell. If I were a Vig I would have killed him, so I think the mafia+Vig setup is certainly possible as well.

[Hjallti]

Can I ask a newbie question here:

What is likely to get in these kind of games, to get a good balance?
All roles should be pretty plain usual roles, right?

*Suppose we are in a mafia+SK situation then there could be 3mafia+1SK or 2mafia+1SK+some strong townies.

*Suppose we have a Vig then I would think 4mafia + 1vig or 3maf+1vig+8vanilla.

*Suppose we have double mafia (say black and red) it would be 2 black and 2 red.

[Hjallti]

Another question. It seems that it can be assumed from start of day two that The Highland Sage was mafia-killed and Lowell was Nightkilled by the third party (being either a SK or a Vig). Is it coming practice to reveil this subtely in the night scene? Could it be the other way around?

You notice two are missing. You split up and look around. You find The Highland Sage shot to death in his leaving room. The group looks further. Lowell is dead by way of stab wounds.

Lowell, Totally Awesome Townie, Killed night 1
The Highland Sage, Totally Awesome Townie, Killed night 1

[Hjallti]

May I speak up my thoughts about the nightkills loudly?

Assuming everyone thought Lowell was scum (except mafia of course)

The Highland Sage was after Lowell...
Mafia killed him, because they could give the impression that Lowell was scum more that way. The SK or Vig kills Lowell because they think he is scum, and if he isn't, lynching Lowell on day2 would be a town kill anyways so it could as well been done now. Although that means that the SK has more chances to be killed today (assuming Lowell was a likely lynch to day). From this I gather: tactically a Vig should have killed Lowell, while SK only might have killed him.

Having worked this out, it leaves two remarks...
I didn't use WIFOM, but of course if you use it evrything turns up side down...
It doesn't matter anyway right now, since knowing the setup doesn't give information on WHO we are dealing with.

[Hjallti]

I still want ~N9v~ to answer my question

In his maiden game

he got emotional

in exactly the same way as NL and got lynched the same way as town. It is so strange to me that ~N9V~ sees behaviour he did produce himself earlier and didn't project the situation.

The paradox in your statement is that you suggest getting emotional is scummy but admit you voted 'on a vibe', and thus you say yourself that your vote is a scumtell.

For now: my vote stands.

[Hjallti]

I still want ~N9v~ to answer my question

In his maiden game

he got emotional

in exactly the same way as NL and got lynched the same way as town. It is so strange to me that ~N9V~ sees behaviour he did produce himself earlier and didn't project the situation.

(...)

Those are doifferent emotions. I mean ones where you say you give up on the game, and fuck you. THose emotions are not helpful at all.

Unvote

No they were the same at the moment of your vote. Nekka gave up after you voted him, so your explanation is false, this either means you had a different reason to vote back then and can't explain right now or you looked back wrong today. Let's hope it is the second, but I'm bother I had to ask three times before you answered... well I have to ask a fourth time now.

Remark, I Pm'd Panzer for the votecount earlier but he probably didn't pick that up yet.

[Hjallti]

I'm convinced ~N9V~ is the SK. This leaves us with a probably opening of
9 town 2 maf 1SK (might be 8-3-1)
which was reduced D1N1
6 town 2maf 1SK
Killing the SK would us give then (after Nightkill)
5 town 2maf (thus something like a C9-configuration (although roles may vary more))

Let's assume 90% probability of the first and 60% of the second assumption, we have more tan a coin flip that we get a C9 situation with 17 pages info. Looks interesting.
Now the question I want to ask everyone before the hammer falls is double.
Is my representation likely?
If so Is the alternative if we could lynch scum (5-1-1 or 4-2-1 after Night 2) better?

Just preventing the hammer for now:

unvote: ~N9V~

[Hjallti]

I could live with getting us in a C9-alike situation. I just want to hear opinions before I revote ~N9V~.

So it is normal for a SK to have immuntiy against cop-investigation? That is good to know.

[Hjallti]

Indeed, that is why I unvoted. It is a strange situation at this point apparently. It would be nice if some of the more experienced players would put think is a clear perspective.

Is my C9-scenario as likely as I think it is?
Is that scenario desirable over a (5T-1M-1SK) sort of thing we might achieve by lynching mafia (risking 4-2-1 anyway)?

[Hjallti]

Hey this may be senseless to post now, but I just realized why the mafia killed Highland Sage. Highland was the most suspicious of Lowell on Day1. Lowell looked the scummiest at the end of the day, so the mafia killed Highland to try to reinforce the idea that Lowell was scum.

Did you realise that after rereading post 377?

The Highland Sage was after Lowell...
Mafia killed him, because they could give the impression that Lowell was scum more that way.

At the current point I'm still confused on how to proceed, and I would want to hear EVERYONE'S ideas and suggestions. As pointed out in some scenarios we might face a Lynch or Loose tomorrow.

[Hjallti]

I had to be concerned about it just to understand what we could possibly learn from first nightkills.

anyway... I still want more people stating what ~N9V~ Vig claim leads them to, or at least what they think of the ~N9V~ =SK-hypothesis a,d how to proceed from there.

Totally apart from that, as my keyboard entitles me to make the spanish Ñ I really find someone should get rid of the tildas . By the way could you explain your name before we lynch you.

[Hjallti]

Okay I think I thought of this long a enough. I still have doubts, but the only way to solve those are to see what happens next.

Let's put us in twilight:

vote: ~N9V~

[Hjallti]

Great game pickem, a pity that NabakovNabakov claimed before the real conclusion of the game.

And here are some more newbie questions?

May also call myself a winner. I mean as a townie you don't need to survive to win with town do you?

By the way I think can I be proud of being lynched as ordinary awesome townie on day 2... it is like scum is afraid of me

and of course the most important question: Did I play well? (At least better than N-L, but that might be a bad comparison)

[Hjallti]

If I read a game to use meta gaming I wouldn't be that open about it!