NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Sakura Hana]

Oh btw,
Happy new year everyone!

[Cephrir]

Cephrir, a few questions:
1) Explain your reversal of read on me. Everything you quoted in your catch up post seemed like you found it scummy.
2) Are you serious about the posts of Sakura that you quoted saying that you agreed why she was run up?

OK, thought I already answered these.

1) It never reversed. I did quote a few things I found scummy, but still wasn't scumreading you.
2) Mostly, I guess.

[Norlkaz]

I am caught up, but figuring out who to lynch will take more time. This is not an easy game.
Cephrir and Bert stand out as capable scum who are currently active but not in the trenches.
I don't especially trust Generic, but tilting into someone who will probably claim a PR is worth at least a few points.

A scumteam based on Pieguy, whom I don't understand the townreads on:
Pieguy
Bro
BBQ?
Muffin or Desp
Ceph

VOTE: PieGuy

He'd be an effortscum, but how many players are left who wouldn't?

Casso is still an option. F16 less so.

I am somewhat disgusted by MC / GM being masons, but they laid considerable groundwork for the claim and haven't backed down.
It's worth mentioning that Marangal claimed masons as scum in Wingate, but she was also scummier in that game.

[Norlkaz]

Bert is also an option on team Pieguy.

[Cephrir]

I don't care about votes as much as most people do.

Really? Interesting...

This looks like textbook crowd folowwing not that I'm not guilty of that as well

---

Fuck you, I'm reading the game. I just don't fact check minute accusations against people other than me; that's their job.

Really? Interesting...

- the way he parked his vote on you D1, followed by parking his vote on me for a majority of the rest of the day. the one with me irked me a bit because i prodded him about it, and he said he wanted me to do something, and then i never did it and he backed off of me and now i'm apparently on the townier side of his middle-tier reads. i can maybe sorta understand it if something i'd done had changed his mind about me? but he hasn't mentioned me at all, really, so i dunno how that happened

The accusation here that was made is that I camped my vote. You then proceeded to ACCUSE me of "crowd following". What the fuck do you mean "it's their job". Nothing he said was freaking wrong. THE ACCUSATION YOU MATERIALIZED OUT OF THIN AIR IS. STOP. SCAPEGOATING.

---

If you'd like to argue your suspicions didn't shift with convenient timing, I would consider it a reasonable rebuttal if you could produce evidence, but I don't care nearly enough to look for it myself.

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Not to mention that statement is terrible for other reasons (for example the fact that you expect me to defend myself when you yourself HAVE NOT PRESENTED A CASE OR ANYTHING FOR ME TO DEFEND AGAINST. In the words of The Hound, "Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you.")

1) that's not a contradiction

2) Your read magically changed because everyone else's did; it's their job mean if you have a problem with that assertion then you need to argue with it

3) I don't care whether I have presented a case or not despite this being a massive double standard

1) Yes, "textbook crowd following" has NOTHING to do with votes. Dear me, where did I ever get the idea that it does?

2) What the fuck. No. Literally. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You're saying you're going to accuse me of something I didn't do and that IT'S MY JOB OF THEN FIGURING OUT IF IT'S TRUE OR NOT/FACT CHECKING IT? Are you going to keep fucking denying you're scum? "Hi I'm going to spew shit at you and I give no fucks if it's actually true or not that's your job of figuring out! Oh also I'm town!"

3) Yeah I'm done this please die scum.

1) You're a moron.

2) I was agreeing with Muffin. If you have an issue, take it up with him, rather than deflecting the issue by starting a fight with me and throwing in some fake rage.

3) I'd prefer not to, if only marginally.

Incidentally, you're lucky I bothered to give a civil response here rather than vote you 50 times as I was originally going to.

2) Your read magically changed because everyone else's did; it's their job mean if you have a problem with that assertion then you need to argue with it

My favorite part about this statement is how it subtly implies that he knows he's wrong yet continuing the argument, whereas a town would've admitted he's wrong right away.

I still have no idea whether or not I am wrong on the original point but your reactions have been pretty great!

I have a slight dislike for the overall coldness even though it's probably a playstyle issue; breaking from it was annoying as well.

the problem is that you're saying it's weird no matter what kind of post I make. if I make a logical post, it's too cold. if I make an emotional post it's weird bc I'm breaking from my logical style. you set up this false dichotomy (logical vs emotional) and then no matter which one I pick you paint it as scummy. if you're town this is confbiased as fuck and not to mention I know you said you try to avoid this when I was questioning you on D1. if you're scum it gives you an easy way to throw suspicion at me

also, 170+ pages in and one of your main scumreads is probably a playstyle issue? srsly

It may be, not it is. But it seems safe to assume this is your meta without looking into it or someone else would have commented by now.

I do know that my scumreads blow ass right now, though.

[Cephrir]

Cephrir and Bert stand out as capable scum who are currently active but not in the trenches.

What on earth about my play this game looks "capable" to you? I'm running around like a chicken with its fucking head cut off.

A scumteam based on Pieguy, whom I don't understand the townreads on:
Pieguy
Bro
BBQ?
Muffin or Desp
Ceph

VOTE: PieGuy

He'd be an effortscum, but how many players are left who wouldn't?

Casso is still an option. F16 less so.

I am somewhat disgusted by MC / GM being masons, but they laid considerable groundwork for the claim and haven't backed down.
It's worth mentioning that Marangal claimed masons as scum in Wingate, but she was also scummier in that game.

So...are you planning to explain anything this game, at all?

[zMuffinMan]

A scumteam based on Pieguy, whom I don't understand the townreads on:

Pieguy
Bro
BBQ?
Muffin or Desp
Ceph

Casso is still an option

Bert is also an option on team Pieguy

you have like half the game in your scum list

[Empire]

Day 2, Votecount 14

Ser Arthur Dayne (6)

-

Casso the King of Seals, Bert, Desperado, Cephrir, DOMO, pieguyn

pieguyn (1)

-

Norlkaz

Cephrir (1)

-

Ser Arthur Dayne

Bert (1)

-

KoreanBBQ

Desperado (1)

-

Sakura Hana

Not Voting (8)

-

geists, MC Maraca, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, MafiaSSK, zMuffinMan, Generic, goodmorning, BROseidon

With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! Deadline is on January 11th at 10:10 AM EST (expired on 2014-01-11 11:10:12)

Mod Notes

-

BROseidon is V/LA until January 3rd.

[goodmorning]

I am somewhat disgusted by MC / GM being masons, but they laid considerable groundwork for the claim and haven't backed down.

lol when did this happen?

I feel like everyone has been rehashing the same old shit, am I wrong?

Currently, my vote thoughts look something like this:

Well, SAD doesn't look 100% sparkly here and I don't like some of his responses to things, BUT I also don't like the look of that wagon. I mean, normally that shit doesn't bother me, but if only 1/6 voters is a townread then there's a step back I need to take.

Still working through ISOs, this would go so much faster if people hadn't posted so much fluff.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I don't care about votes as much as most people do.

Really? Interesting...

This looks like textbook crowd folowwing not that I'm not guilty of that as well

---

Fuck you, I'm reading the game. I just don't fact check minute accusations against people other than me; that's their job.

Really? Interesting...

- the way he parked his vote on you D1, followed by parking his vote on me for a majority of the rest of the day. the one with me irked me a bit because i prodded him about it, and he said he wanted me to do something, and then i never did it and he backed off of me and now i'm apparently on the townier side of his middle-tier reads. i can maybe sorta understand it if something i'd done had changed his mind about me? but he hasn't mentioned me at all, really, so i dunno how that happened

The accusation here that was made is that I camped my vote. You then proceeded to ACCUSE me of "crowd following". What the fuck do you mean "it's their job". Nothing he said was freaking wrong. THE ACCUSATION YOU MATERIALIZED OUT OF THIN AIR IS. STOP. SCAPEGOATING.

---

If you'd like to argue your suspicions didn't shift with convenient timing, I would consider it a reasonable rebuttal if you could produce evidence, but I don't care nearly enough to look for it myself.

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

Not to mention that statement is terrible for other reasons (for example the fact that you expect me to defend myself when you yourself HAVE NOT PRESENTED A CASE OR ANYTHING FOR ME TO DEFEND AGAINST. In the words of The Hound, "Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you.")

1) that's not a contradiction

2) Your read magically changed because everyone else's did; it's their job mean if you have a problem with that assertion then you need to argue with it

3) I don't care whether I have presented a case or not despite this being a massive double standard

1) Yes, "textbook crowd following" has NOTHING to do with votes. Dear me, where did I ever get the idea that it does?

2) What the fuck. No. Literally. WHAT. THE. FUCK. You're saying you're going to accuse me of something I didn't do and that IT'S MY JOB OF THEN FIGURING OUT IF IT'S TRUE OR NOT/FACT CHECKING IT? Are you going to keep fucking denying you're scum? "Hi I'm going to spew shit at you and I give no fucks if it's actually true or not that's your job of figuring out! Oh also I'm town!"

3) Yeah I'm done this please die scum.

1) You're a moron.

2) I was agreeing with Muffin. If you have an issue, take it up with him, rather than deflecting the issue by starting a fight with me and throwing in some fake rage.

3) I'd prefer not to, if only marginally.

2) What bong are you smoking from? Because there's no way you're in your right mind and think this. Here, I'll make it very clear:

MU

FF

IN

'S

S

TA

TE

ME

NT

H

AS

N

OT

HI

NG

T

O

DO

W

IT

H

YO

UR

S

You were not (key words: WERE NOT) agreeing with Muffin. You made a NEW accusation. JUST because you quote his post and then write something under it does not mean you're agreeing with the statement. He said I basically camped my vote and that I didn't explain my reads when I switched off of them. YOU came in and then said that it was "crowd following". These are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. What the hell do you mean "take it up with muffin"? Stop fucking scapegoating. You and him were NOT saying the same thing. Not remotely. Stop deflecting your wrong accusation and putting the blame elsewhere. I can see where he's coming from and I even agree with him (and I am aware of the weaknesses in my playstyle, so again, I see where he's coming from). However, the accusation you made is WRONG. So you're either scum and spewing shit or haven't been reading the fucking thread and think you can bullshit your way through the game. You've already claimed that the latter is not true. So that leaves me with the former. If you're wrong, which any townie would've realized by now, you would've maned the fuck up and admitted it instead of crying about "But why don't you go blame hiiiiiiim? ;_;".

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Muffin can start raking up some scumpoints for his recent posts.

cool. why?

Tbf I read your posts before I read mafiassk's, but basically I always believe there's at least one scum that tries to go against the major wagon especially if it looks like it's going to go through anyways. Your recent posts have been saying you don't agree with my lynch, yet you offer no alternative neither do you make a full effort to convince anyone (supported by the fact you wishy-wash your statements by then putting a things you don't like - so no one that is currently on the wagon can even be convinced of the things you DO like because it looks like you're not even convinced of them yourself).

Also do you usually take suspicion on you this lightly/calmly, or are you trying to materialize this air of coolness around you by brushing off suspicion on you in an attempt to look town?

also why geists scum and why casso town?

I've explained the former already, and the latter I basically agree with MCM (I think it was them?) who said they're town in what they did concerning the sakura wagon.

[DOMO]

unvote

Incoming hard reset.

[DOMO]

I don't feel great about your choice of investigation. I think you should have checked someone less readable - like Casso or Muffin for instance.

I went for geists because a) I was struggling to read her, and b) I didn't think she would be lynched. Muffin and casso were both people I considered looking into, but both are people who I felt might get lynched pretty soon anyway. I don't want my confirms getting wagonned, because I either have to claim to protect them or lose a confirm. And less readable? That's relative. I was having difficulty reading someone who I expected to be able to read. I thought she was a good bet for scum, but didn't want to push for her lynch without some grounds other than my paranoia. You might have an easier time reading geists over casso and muffin, but I'm not sure I do. I'll pick people I have a hard time reading, I won't be investigating for your benefit because I cannot be sure about your alignment.

[Cephrir]

I'm done trying to have this conversation, you can die now

[DOMO]

vote cephrir

[Cephrir]

Or I can, I mean that's alright as well.

[DOMO]

I'm not liking the SAD wagon.

Ser Arthur Dayne (6) - Casso the King of Seals, Bert, Desperado, Cephrir, DOMO, pieguyn

What are your reads on the people on this wagon ceph?

[Cephrir]

Casso: probably town
Bert: probably town
Desperado: town?
Domo: town
pieguyn: maybe scum

I don't see a problem

[DOMO]

I don't see a problem

I don't see why you need to add this.

[DOMO]

ISO has me leaning town goddamit. Your reads have drifted but you've explained why and your reads list above is consistent with your posts.

unvote

[Generic]

See I have concerns about cephrir and I'm trying to decide exactly what it is.

The reads of the wagon are indeed consistent with his earlier reads, but it's exactly that sentence DOMO highlighted that pings something.

It's almost as if he had already determined how town the wagon was rather than the main thing being on a wagon should be, that you think the person is scum.
Yes you were asked for opinions of the players on that wagon, but you seemed to introduce whether the wagon was acceptably town enough.

I'm gonna scrutinise the arguement you had with SAD in a bit more detail to settle my mind on a few things, for now though I would rather the SAD wagon stays parked rather than accelerated.

[zMuffinMan]

Your recent posts have been saying you don't agree with my lynch, yet you offer no alternative neither do you make a full effort to convince anyone (supported by the fact you wishy-wash your statements by then putting a things you don't like - so no one that is currently on the wagon can even be convinced of the things you DO like because it looks like you're not even convinced of them yourself).

ok. i'm not convinced you're town but you're right that i don't agree with your lynch. the reason i'm not pushing anyone else yet is because i'm still going over ISOs. i made yours a priority read because of the wagon on you.

the things i don't like are the things i don't like and i'm not going to avoid mentioning those things just because i think you might be town. your read progression on me is still one of the things i don't like about you because i don't understand how you went from initially thinking i'm town to thinking i'm scum (or at least a worthwhile vote) to changing your mind about me at some point between the end of D1 and that reads list you recently gave to now thinking i'm scum again (or at least that i've earned "scum points"?). it'd be nice if you actually explained what was going on with this.

Also do you usually take suspicion on you this lightly/calmly, or are you trying to materialize this air of coolness around you by brushing off suspicion on you in an attempt to look town?

i'm a really cool guy. and your read progression on me makes me smile a bit

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Arthur, you agreed with me that a Tammy nk shouldn't necessarily make you town but you townread me based on it, why? Wouldn't the same reasoning apply to me?

Your scum-partners could agree better with you when you say "I don't want to kill Tammy because she's townreading me and we're bouncing off ideas off each other and I feel I can influence her when we need" rather than were I to say "Hi I don't want to kill Tammy because I'm enjoying playing with her".

Cmon bro. Too ez.

Okay, I like that your read reversal is internally consistent. It seems like you re-evaluated your reads based on the nk. 3930 matches up with that theory.

Cephrir, I'd like a response to my questions in 4101.

Hi, you seem like a reasonable fellow in this town of crazies please tell me you see where I'm coming from with Ceph and that I'm not just seeing everything he does as scum and it's an ad hom attack.

I am not the best person to tell you that since I am scumreading Cephrir based on his posts about me which is hardly unbiased. I'll re-evaluate his interaction with other people and go through his other games when I find time. I read through your argument with him and I didn't find anything alignment indicative. I can see "misreps" coming from both town and scum. I had a huge argument with Bulbazak in Micro 252 where I thought he was scum because of perceived misreps on his part but when I took a step back and objectively analyzed his posts, I realized he was town. Cephrir's play reminded me of Bulbazak's a lot in that he tends to attack nearly everything his scumreads do so a similar strategy like not looking into what he said about me in particular might help figure out his alignment. Let's try this: you go through Cephrir's posts about me and offer your opinions. I'll go through his posts about you and offer mine.

Also, what is your read on Desperado? In 4113, you talk about how you are going to prove him to be a moron at endgame implying you think he is town. Has your read changed since D1 and when you posted your tiers? What other reads of yours were influenced by the nightkill?

[Cephrir]

See I have concerns about cephrir and I'm trying to decide exactly what it is.

The reads of the wagon are indeed consistent with his earlier reads, but it's exactly that sentence DOMO highlighted that pings something.

It's almost as if he had already determined how town the wagon was rather than the main thing being on a wagon should be, that you think the person is scum.
Yes you were asked for opinions of the players on that wagon, but you seemed to introduce whether the wagon was acceptably town enough.

I'm gonna scrutinise the arguement you had with SAD in a bit more detail to settle my mind on a few things, for now though I would rather the SAD wagon stays parked rather than accelerated.

Nah bro, I def think he's scum too. Outside chance of just retarded, but, probably scum. You can see that from when I originally voted him in the first place even if my reasons were kind of shitty.

[Cephrir]

(pro tip: my reasons are virtually always kind of shitty)