NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Sakura Hana]

The lack of interactions of F16 with me and he still having me as null is scaring me.

[Bert]

I think Casso is scum likely with Stuffed Crust, and possibly a couple of people in my null pile, Generic being a person of concern at this moment.

Wait a moment. So the top two wagons other than yourself are your only concrete scumreads, yet you have not voted for either of them. Both of their wagons are not anything new. They have been here for quite some time, ever since I entered this game days ago.

Why wait until now to list two scumreads, both of them being at the top of the voting chart aside from you? That seems awfully convenient.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Spoiler: Mara's read on Casso

Vote: Goodmorning

I think the whole ISO blather is pure town sounding lies.

I like the Geist push but imagine Nacho may want to say something about it to me, and he's being a lurksack right now. And he was supposed to be the posting head here, so...yeah.
As a random note - I refuse to sign anything, if you can't tell the difference between Nacho and me I don't care, read us as a single entity anyway, that's how a hydra works last I checked.

I have FF, Stuffed, and Generic as town.
Reads may adjust as we combine them, or maybe Nacho will sheep me - you'll have to wait and see.

Here's my application to the town block also:

You're allowed to sheep me.
-Casso.

Done!

This? this was a great entrance post from thor, but I'm not reading to much into it.

I wonder if my rants will be as effective with that seal face staring out at everyone.

and this made me LOL

I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

This is a really good post from nacho, It shows his thinking and it was exactly what I was doing. not to mention that, doing that in that point in time kinda cut down on some of the things he could have done later on in the day. He is also prone to being paranoid of me, and has lynched me several times when I was town, and when he was town. He could very easily get a way with it but instead, he continues to defend me as the day goes on.

Specifically I'm seeing parallels with how in Buzzword you jumped on the weakness in orcinus' entrance and encouraged/supported others' reads. At least with orcinus it was a genuinely off entrance. Brian's initial posts almost always look strained and uncomfortable.

I don't think Brian has a tendency to look weak early game. I thought there was clear motivation in F-16s opening to stay alive to sort out Nacho-scum, and I thought that it was strange Brian immediately attacked that, especially considering the mentor mentee game that recently ended which proves F-16 can read me pretty competently.

I thought this was pretty genuine

I liked Mara's early push on Cephrir. The target in and of itself isn't really that special, but the way she went about it seemed good to me (mostly the whole gearing up for a push and then completely letting it go part, that felt nice). So generic, if you're getting an early townread on Mara based on her initial posting, we're probably in agreement.

You actually need mara's posts to read them?

Yes? Cabd forming a town block with himself in the center early game doesn't exactly seem like something that's unlikely to be coming from Cabd-scum. Why do you disagree?

and this was a "Well, yeah. Cabd is being cabd and right now, Mara is prolly the window to reading their slot."

this post just resonated super, duper well with me.

Greetings,

Nacho's desire to get into a hydra with me when I *specifically* discuss about the entire concept of my hopes for a hydra being that someone is the posting head and I just get to spew thoughts into a QT is not really amusing to me at this stage.

He's not even doing a good job expressing my thoughts and outrage, in my opinion. Probably because he's convinced he has to paraphrase from a ruddy Hydra QT - which literally makes no sense, copypasta that gak, Nach!

I see people say they can have trouble reading Nach and then admit I'm in the mix and are wondering about reading me... ::insert noise of a back of throat chuckle mixed with a smirk::

In OTHER news!

Let's hit these strokes which Nacho didn't convey for me due to general suckage;

You can tell Geist Thor thinks his push is silly.

You mentioned Brian no more or less than Tammy or Ceph during your posting catchup. It's skeevy to isolate one and try to paint it as an attempt to push a weak player when;

1. We're voting elsewhere.
2. We are mentioning multiple other players as much or more.
3. I wasn't even aware Brian was the easy mislynch that everyone is frothing about.

Seriously, what is this?
I already think your silly backside is scummy and THIS is your big push on our slot? Color me un-ruddy-impressed.
Get to justifying this gak right now.

I don't like how Tammy is getting into a fight with half a hydra's head, and then the other head is like 'I know what Head 1 is doing, I'mma sit back!' and Tammy just keeps punching as though he said nothing...makes it feel fake to me, like she realizes she's supposed to put on a show and is doing what is expected of her.

She's fake playing to her town meta, is what I'm saying.

I wanna get this one out here too. What was that gak Tammy? WHile we're at it, MC can help further justify it as well since apparently it was a major town read in their mind while looking immensely fake to me.
She even basically calmed down in like thirty seconds. It felt VERY fake.
Justify pl0x!
Links to blow ups that look of similar "Realness" to this one as a counterpoint would be awesome.
I don't recall Tammy ever blowing up like that and then going insta-calm in anything I've seen her in though.

Your seemingly-blank-looking-null read on Casso doesn't help anyone either ♫

Have...you even offered a read on this slot? Y'know, as long as you're complaining others haven't?

it seems really weird considering he hadn't included pitoli in his reads list wall before then.

Um...literally the only list we'd made prior to this was one I made.
And it was a town list.
So...whut?

@Goodmorning - I look forward to hearing all your thoughts from your last iso read, and am prepared to wait a few days/weeks for you to catchup and then do an additional iso read, I bet it will be revealing. I'll admit what I expect to be revealed is that you are scum, but I'm a touch the pessimist at heart.

At this stage of the game I'm bored enough to pretty much vote whomever if other players would just ruddy get their act together enough to actually agree on someone to push. I think THIS SLOT might be the biggest unified push to date, and we have like two votes on us. It's pretty obnoxious.

Some people should vote Pitoli or GM or Geist or BBQ or Tammy or something. I'll be there for you, heck, I'd even yell down Nacho on Tammy and push it to L-1 if it just meant an L-1 would happen prior to page 40 of this game.

@Falcon - sheep me.
@Desp - if you don't wanna read, sheep me.
@KoreanBBQ - I think you look scummy, sheep me.
@Domo - SHEEP!
@MafiaSSK - I have cookies, sheep me.
@Tammy - I have Nachos, sheep me.

Don't make me have to become the active head out of rage and boredom, I'll do it.

This post from Thor was extraordinary, Sure, he can do this as scum but I don't think it's likely. It also shows that they

are

talking about stuff in their QT

Hey thor why don't you talk about what you loved about my opening?

I never said I loved your opening, I said I liked it.
I liked that you came in and attacked and prodded multiple players at a stage of the game people were being lazy and slow in getting things moving.
I also said I liked that Falcon attacked you for it, so don't start sending me any candy hearts anytime soon.

Why would you think this? I might not be right, but I'm getting reads from my interactions with people. My reads are developing all the time and as such I feel like I'm doing the opposite of fail. That's not to say my reads are right, I'm saying I'm happy with my progress. If you're not, tough luck.

I never suggested your reads were good/bad/indifferent so don't get bent out of shape for something I didn't say.
I *did* suggest it was uncool to derail as soon as it appeared some actual momentum shift and vote movement, because looking at that vote count this game desperately needs a serious wagon and a serious counter about twenty posts ago.

I'm not though, because I think I'm actually quite satisfied with my play right now despite the slow starting.

You have barely managed to present reads on a thirty page game while being snarky at others having the same issue. I can't imagine it should surprise you that people have issues with that.

This is a "I liked your post, I never said I loved it"

slight hydra-miscom which is more likely to come from a town hydra over a scum one. (I think Nacho had relayed it as Thor loving Cabd's opening)

Laptop died and I'm posting on a crappy netbook so this is not going to be as detailed as I'd otherwise make it.

At the time when Nati and I first started to feel suspicious of Nacho it was for a bunch of reasons, none of which was really a clincher but together make a constellation that we feel is trouble.

We don't like how he apparently missed a ton of crumbs

We don't like how he seems to be currying favor with players rather than sorting them

We don't like the pitoli vote and especially don't like its timing. It came off like he was trying to deflect attention after we first went after him.

We don't like how he tried to push the non-aggression pact on us.

We don't like the whole tone of the exchange with Brian. The whole tone of that sounded off.

And we found Thor's posts pretty damn close to null content.

And finally, we don't like that when we asked him what he thought about SSK, he said that he was thinking about moving his vote there if Thor agrees. That was off for two reasons: the assumption that we were scumreading, not trying to sort SSK, and because he deferred the decision waiting for a catch up. That's not something he typically does as a hydra.

-I am picking up on less crumbs than I normally would because iPad. I also don't think that's a scumtell for me.

-I am currently considering going back to the Pitoli vote. The timing coincided more with my entrance in thread than your suspicion of me, though.

-Why not? The only advantage it offers me as scum is the towncred. I offered it originally because I thought Cabd would appreciate the gesture, but he apparently didn't get it.

-don't understand where tone was off there.

-I thought Nati was scumreading SSK and I was pretty ready to move forward on that. I'm no better at sorting him than ffery is and so thought the method of approach to him this game was to leave him in Nati hands. You are correct that I usually don't wait to sync up as a hydra. Thor is not my usual hydra partner; my usual hydra partner is someone like you or GiF who can see why I'm thinking what I'm thinking and doesn't diverge on my most basic of reads. There are other hydrate where i take primary control and thus don't differ much from my usual play. Then there are hydrate like Majiffy where our approaches differ in a way where my play needs to change significantly. With him, I tend to exert my personality over his since my reads are superior to his, hence Vegito and ridiculous aggression. With Thor, the biggest thing I want this hydra to give me is a greater understanding of him and for him to understand these pieces of our meta a little more. I don't think playing in the usual way will help me with that, and am much more comfortable with waiting for him than I am not waiting for him.

I kinda like this, Nacho sounds annoyed in general. this can go either way, but I think this was coming from a town mindset of "I don't have a comp, leave me alone" Kinda deal (though prolly not quite like that)

Tammy's a little more Meh-read now. She was God-town earlier, but holding a grudge on an attack that I had made earlier and not understanding where my paranoia of her is coming from is a little weird. The emotions were, and still are town as Smurf though and isn't something that isn't easily replicated as scum even by me and my ability to replicate most, if not all of my major town-tells is something I have alot of pride over.

Serious question; do you think and/or have ever seen Tammy fake emotions as scum? Because Nacho is acting like that's writ in the stars, and you seem flakey on it, so one of you is talking out your backside as far as the read goes. So whassup with this? She is either emotive and thus gawd town, or she is emotive and able to fake it in which case I'd like one of the meta crowd to slap Nacho in the face with a rolled up newspaper.

-snip-

I liked this section of the post as it, yet again shows that they are talking, and not only talking, but scum-hunting withing their QT. this post shows that they are debating reads, and that they are actually trying to find some kind of common ground

Are you going to tunnel Mara now? You did say earlier that you were going to tunnel of hell her.

Are you going to tunnel Mara now? You did say earlier that you were going to tunnel of hell her.

Why are you so keen to get me fighting with mara?

Because usually you become obvtown when you fight with Mara.
I see no reason why you wouldn't engage her if you thought she was scum, which I thought you believed before.

When I ask you if you're going to tunnel Mara, you say that I'm setting you up a 1v1 between you and Mara.
When you are left to your own devices, you call Mara scum pretty fucking quickly.
What?

These three post sequence show Nacho not really understanding Generic, and wanting to understand what he's doing over jumping right away. he wants us to fight because it leads to one (or both) of us obvtowning ourselves which makes things a hellofalot easier for him.

the third was him being confused because he didn't expect generic to be defensive (or something?) on the fight, and didn't really understand where Generic was going with his read on me, or what he was going to do with it.

the third post is genuine confusion

I'm probably going to pass out now. I might not be able to post again until Monday, don't be sad.

The seal wagon is not a bad wagon at all. (Yes, Bert, in hard boiled I realized for sure nacho was scum for unnatural sorting of me, but it was mostly based on something I would have expected town him to pick up on about town me. I'm not so sure muffin is as easy to sort as I am, and it seemed really clear to me that nacho was maneuvering around who was obvtown to the crowd and creating noise that I didn't think he would create.)

(Speaking of Nacho, maraca's crap "gambit" had nothing to do with pushing me to look obvtown and if you are somehow town you're looking at that far too simplistically. Mara betrayed her underhanded motivations when she said she didn't push me as hard as she planned. You don't "plan" to push people for reactions as town, not in the beginning of the game. And not in the fashion as she did, unless you're a complete amateur, so if you and she will admit she has no clue whatsoever that she's doing in this game I'll think of stepping back, but in order to gauge reactions on someone you have to know them...you have to know what to push...you have to know some way of reading them. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of m game wouldn't have needed to do that. And her push was not in any way shape or form one to figure out my alignment, it was purely to piss me off, purely to discredit me. That is 100% evident by the ensuing days, so you comparing it to hard boiled is flawed because the motivation was not the same or even close.)

You're probably scum though so :/

I'm still not voting stuff crust because bar soon amused me.

Not voting muffin.

Surprised Sakura isn't a thing.

Would probs go back to voting BBQ, but meh.

Let's lynch maraca though!!!

Maras scumgames are interesting because they look pretty different from one another and are hard to peg down in most explanations of meta. They differ so strongly I think because Mara plays mostly from the heart as scum (like I've been doing recently), and she wouldn't lead out the planned emotional manipulation effort to discredit you. Cabd could plan it lately, but that's where Hard Boiled comes into play again: it was a poignant as hell experience where Cabd and I were basically wondering what the fuck we did to deserve an attack against of us that held that ridiculous tendency and laughed because we were both good scum players but we realized deep deep down we were completely and supremely fucked. I cannot see Cabd being so idiotic or suicidal to endorse or suggest a plan that went down that horror road ever again. I can see Mara making a weird push on you as town.

this especially made me smile because, this came before the mason claim and he could have very easily left this alone. he didn't, and it also shows that he actually has a understanding of where I come from when I play scum and he could have used this as a reason to scum-read me this game, but he didn't. he calls me town, and tries to get tammy to back off ( who I think is someone he thinks is town) and is trying to keep town from fighting amongst each other which is town as all fuck.

Mara, I think you are wrong about Thor/Nacho for all the following reasons:
1) Nothing about Thor's entrance post was alignment indicative coming from Thor.
2) Thor is capable of making people laugh as town and scum.
3) Nacho is perfectly capable of whiteknighting as scum and making people feel good about themselves. He defended me as scum in a recent Micro we both played. It is non-alignment indicative. Both town and scum defend town and buddy them. You say he may have been cutting down on his later options but he can always change his mind so it doesn't mean anything.
4) I'll comment on 356 since it is referring to me. I didn't find it genuine. I rather thought he was exagerating my ability to read him.
5) So, he said he would read your slot through you as opposed to Cabd. Sure, he would do it as town. He would also do it as scum because he would be

expected

to do it as town. Doesn't mean that he is town.
6) Hydra communications - Desperado addressed this. I think they are using it for malicious purposes here. Thor is troll-voting people who Nacho knows intimately and can't vote without scumclaiming. Like me for example but also plenty of others. Nacho's options in this playerlist are very,

very

limited. I'd love to see Nacho find any reason to attack me for instance.
7) He would be annoyed at not having a comp to pick up on crumbs even if he is scum. It could be genuine frustration or it could be faked.
8) Debating within their QT about Tammy's emotions served a scum purpose here. Nacho is townreading Tammy - LIKE HE IS SUPPOSED TO. Thor is trying to get on your side by agreeing with you.
9) Nacho takes your side, says you are town, and admonishes Generic for pushing on you. Again, scum can do this.
10) He townread you and got Tammy to back off. Again, you are basing it off of him seeing things from your viewpoint. I would have asked Tammy to back off too if I thought it was TvT. I didn't. I was pretty sure it was TvS.

Suspecting you and pushing for your lynch isn't a scumtell. Saying that you are town isn't a towntell. Town can be wrong and scum will townread townies.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

If it helps, its nero who's scumreading fery.
I'm ultimatively townreading her and whenever I see something off from the post, its apparently nati's post so I quietly withdraw my suspicion time to time.

This is comforting.

The lack of interactions of F16 with me and he still having me as null is scaring me.

I have tried to interact with you quite a few times. I can't interact with everyone at once. This being a large game does affect my reads. I have 5 solid townreads. If this was a Micro, I would have solved the game by now through POE or at least narrowed down scum to 2/3. I am concerned about you based on ffery's points and your general demeanor like the post I quoted which seems like posturing - because it doesn't make any sense. YOU have me as null and hadn't initiated any interactions with me where as I have. I asked you about your reads and your thoughts on the game state whenever I could catch you out of V/LA. You seem very much like an elusive, mysterious person who wants to be chased just for the lolz.

Wait a moment. So the top two wagons other than yourself are your only concrete scumreads, yet you have not voted for either of them. Both of their wagons are not anything new. They have been here for quite some time, ever since I entered this game days ago.

Why wait until now to list two scumreads, both of them being at the top of the voting chart aside from you? That seems awfully convenient.

I wasn't hardcore scumreading Casso until Thor's vote on me. StuffedCrust, my read has been building for a while. I haven't voted because I am not generally quick with my votes and take time to consider all options. Doesn't your experience with me match up with that?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

What do you want to talk about Sakura?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bad timing. I gotta go but I'll be back in 2-3 hours to respond. If are online then, that is cool as well.

[Casso the King of Seals]

@Falcon - two points.

1. I have offered multiple reads and trid to advance multiple pushes based on those reads. I stopped caring though about 50 pages ago. At this stage I want a lynch, pure and simple, and apparently the only people anyone is willing to lynch are people I (and Nacho) think are town. Such is life. But, yes, you have accurately spotted that *I don't care* who gets lynched at this stage. That also means either you think I'm town or 3rd party y'know. Just saying.

2. Also, I don't think Nacho would agree with the vote on you, indeed in the QT he has been quite fine with calling you town and basically agreed with my reasoning for calling you town. That said, I personally feel better about Stuffed = town than you, and with that as my choice I'm pretty content to vote you first and try to get away with it since Nacho is being a useless lurk sack to me right now so pretty much you need to pray he decides to be active or it's choo-choo on you all the way through. Also, let's be clear, besides voting you (a town lean for me and a town...well, stronger than lean but he's argued you way less than some of his other reads, so call it weak town read maybe) I could vote Stuffed (a town read for me and a...oh, look, town read for Nacho) or, I could vote a vanity/side wagon and sit on it and call everyone lackwits.

You've played with me, you know *exactly* what I'd do in that situation, and to suggest I'd do it as scum, but not town while also being aware that so many other things I'd do as either alignment reads as either poor play or silly posturing from you. If I was scum, yes, I'd be doing the same things I'm doing now...and that's because when I'm scum I play like my town game. So to suggest this is some weird and trolling push from me that is remotely unusual is super weak - because I *DO* think this will help town, and I am unamused that you fail to understand how it does, or at least how I believe it does.

You want to change things? Then vote Sakura and get some support, I'll move to that in a heartbeat and Nacho seems basically likely to come along for the ride with only minor whining.
But don't write off what I'm doing as trolling, what I'm doing is forcing people to make a stand on someone I'm going to lynch.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Hey, Falcon, hey, wanna guess how many games I can link to with me complaining towards end day that people need to get off side wagons and consolidate votes?

They're ALL scum games, I'm certain, because Thor wouldn't evah do that as town, and certainly has this rep of doing things as scum that he doesn't do as town - everyone knows this.

[Casso the King of Seals]

I mean, I have the most transparent scum game of all. Everyone can read me with high accuracy, it happens all the time, and I never complain about how my scum game ruins my town experiences because people start just paranoid suspecting me constantly for nonsensical reasons.

[Bert]

They're ALL scum games, I'm certain,

because Thor wouldn't evah do that as town

, and certainly has this rep of doing things as scum that he doesn't do as town - everyone knows this.

I mean, I have the most transparent scum game of all.

Everyone can read me with high accuracy

, it happens all the time, and I never complain about how my scum game ruins my town experiences because people start just paranoid suspecting me constantly for nonsensical reasons.

these don't sound genuine, and can't be taken at face value for me, sorry

[Sakura Hana]

YOU have me as null and hadn't initiated any interactions with me where as I have. I asked you about your reads and your thoughts on the game state whenever I could catch you out of V/LA. You seem very much like an elusive, mysterious person who wants to be chased just for the lolz.

You could easily do Meta on me, I did follow up on the newbie game where i replaced out and ffery came in, that you helped solve in the end. While I have no idea how to read you so my interactions with you would be kind of pointless =/

[Casso the King of Seals]

Then feel free to not take them at face value, but also feel free to ask anyone to ever show you at any point ever me lying about my meta.
I can wait.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Actually it just occurred to me that Bert may not have proper [sarcasm]tag[/sarcasm] detection with me. Eh, he'll either figure it out or try to make a case about it and give me a good laugh. I'm good either way.

[Bert]

I don't even know you, and I've just referred to you in my notes as Nacho's hydra.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Yes.

[Casso the King of Seals]

Oh, wait, I've been wanting to do this one, here Bert, I'll tag up my posts for you using BBC code;

[sarcasm]

[Bert]

[Casso the King of Seals]

I think you have a broad definition of that word.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

The one new page of the first sexual experiences thread was more interesting than 10 pages of this thread.

To an asexual.

Let that sink in.

[Sakura Hana]

I have a feeling that when F16 is back im going to be asleep.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Bert, what do you think about lynching Casso instead?

I mulled over it and I am not sure StuffedCrust is scum. I think they are a red herring that scum Thor is setting up for fools who think Thor's scum game is as simple as avoiding a wagon on his buddy. Thor/Nacho are prime targets for investigations and if they do get investigated guilty and lynched, people will be looking at associative tells. I think Stuffed is a mislynch that Thor is trying to set up in the event that their hydra doesn't make it to endgame, and depending on PR actions, they likely won't.

If Stuffed is scum, Casso is likely town.

Sakura, I can't "easily" do meta on you. I have limited pockets on time to spend on this game and a meta-dive takes anywhere between 1-5 hours depending on the skill of the player involved and my experience with them.

You say you have no idea how to read me. Are you implying that you don't attempt to read players that you haven't played with? Because even you don't have a meta baseline, I think it is possible to evaluate a player's behavior in game.

[Sakura Hana]

You say you have no idea how to read me. Are you implying that you don't attempt to read players that you haven't played with? Because even you don't have a meta baseline, I think it is possible to evaluate a player's behavior in game.

Or i could let some of my townreads sort you for me. But I do admit that some of the stuff you've done looks a but sketchy.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'd like to see you elaborate. Bonus points if you point out something that I haven't addressed or responded to so far.

[Bert]

Bert, what do you think about lynching Casso instead?

I'd do it in a heartbeat, because I'm familiar with Nacho and I don't like anything about his play so far.

[Bert]

I was voting them and then I saw stuff like this:

I've got so much to catch up on. I dunno if I'm gonna really have any time until after christmas, this site malarky has really made it tough to keep involved. I feel like I'm voting blind. Can some tl;dr a case on casso? That's nacho and thor, right?

I'm not so sure I want to be killing off two strong players so early unless the case is compelling.

This would be a dream mislynch for scum if they're town.

Falcon you don't have the reputation that Casso's heads have (yet), so... or at least DOMO doesn't know you probably, hence the "dream mislynch" comment

that's why DOMO felt so weird initially, posts like this