Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[TheReverend]

Hi guys, it will obviously take some time for me to read up.

unvote

[TheReverend]

Ok I was going to decide whether to claim miller or not after I'd read, but I see my predecessor already has.

Confirm I am miller.

[TheReverend]

Haha explain to me please how I scumslipped, because that would be a rather impressive thing for town to do.

I do not care if I am lynched today. I would go as far as to encourage it if there's serious doubt about my role. But you can at least wait for me to read up and post my thoughts.

[TheReverend]

Can you explain this

Gut.

Alarm bells. GuyInFreezer is my first scum read. The use of "gut" to explain a townread is weak, imo.

Orc is very probably town though. He's pressing people, scumhunting, he's even questioning why people have a scumr ead on him. I'm only up to page 4 but orc is easily the most active person.

If sven is town, mafia would be staying far away from this entire thing, IMO. Let us whip ourselves into a frenzy while they sit back and pop popcorn.

I like this post. I've been scum before with two legit miller claims out there. I was happy to sit back and let town warp itself into a steaming pile of wtf.

Here, have my flavour too... Tyrea, Colonist Aligned Miller Tracker.

I don't care if I die today because a) miller sucks and causes too many problems for town, and b) tracker is not a great role, in my experience.

[TheReverend]

Sorry I've got my posts mixed up, multitabbing etc.

He claimed tracker as well? This is why I wanted to read up before claiming. If I was just miller, I would've just claimed first post. But the fact I have a PR on top of my miller role means that I wanted time to assess my move.

I also didn't like that you had excuses for the late Miller claim after replacing in.

You expect me to know he's claimed miller before I post? I posted, what, 4 minutes after mod confirms I'm in... clearly I haven't read anything at this stage.

I'm town miller, and yes I'm tracker too.

[TheReverend]

Nacho your recent actions are weird why'd you vote sven

Cabd's town as fuck, GiF is town as fuck, you're town as fuck, I can't lynch buldey on Day 1 because he is so great but ffery's posts will tell me their alignment.
MS is a boring vote.
Sven isn't towning hard enough for me yet.

Nacho, why the "town as fuck" read on GiF? Forgive me if something has been said since this post that implies town, but up until this post he's my sole scum read. Agree about cabd and orc though.

[TheReverend]

I'll buy Sven's miller claim for now.

This guy is scummy. Leaving the miller around is a beautiful scum strategy, because as endgame approaches, the miller becomes easier and easier mislynch bait.

GiF and BRO so far.

[TheReverend]

I think nacho is town too, but I'm only up to beginning of page six.

So far...
Town = orc, cabd and to lesser extent nacho
Scum = GiF, BRO

Everyone else is null. I'm going to bed, it's 4am here, I will resume my read through tomorrow afternoon.

pedit - lol... to be fair orc, my reads are based on first six pages, and you're giving BRO a pretty hard time at that stage of the game.

[TheReverend]

lol I've been here 5 minutes and already I figured out that jiffy uses caps and mollie doesn't, it's easy to figure out who's posting out of the two.

Oh god why do I join a game that has 57 pages on day 1? Someone motivate me please.

[TheReverend]

lol I've been here 5 minutes and already I figured out that jiffy uses caps and mollie doesn't, it's easy to figure out who's posting out of the two.

Oh god why do I join a game that has 57 pages on day 1? Someone motivate me please.

VOTE: Reverend

Can't argue with that logic.

[TheReverend]

Ok so I'm gonna read up if I'm still alive at night. Sorry but I just can't be bothered to read 50+ pages to then get lynched, especially on d1 when info is minimal and my reads are most likely to be flawed.

I'm not going to go down crying though. I'm miller and therefore a very good lynch today, if town can come up with nothing better. Just don't expect a scum flip if I die today, because it's not happening.

[TheReverend]

How bout this

You just sheep one of nacho, myself, or bb for your votes

It's okay because you're town

VOTE: Aj

I can sheep you today. But not blindly. Why AJ? I've played him before, he's easy mislynch bait because his town game seems scummy. Is there a case on him?

[TheReverend]

I don't think that I have played a game where aj was lynched and I have played like 5 with him. what game did you play with him where he was mislynched?

This surprised me when I read this because you (jiffy) were in the game I was thinking, but it's me who's confused. I was thinking of Overly Posh Mafia, you and I were town, as was AJ, final day it looked like either you or AJ was going to get lynched. I thought he was mislynched because I remember thinking he was scum and recall being surprised he was town. But it was penguin who was mislynched for the scum win. My bad.

Still, I found him scummy most of that game, and he was town. So the point isn't moot. He's easy to push.

[TheReverend]

I don't care if I die today because a) miller sucks and causes too many problems for town,

and b) tracker is not a great role, in my experience

.

Could you link me to the game in which you experienced a tracker not being a great role?

- b

I'm bored of looking for it. I *thought* I had tracker role before, and made no use of it. But in searching for said game, I could only find a game where I was watcher, not tracker. I might be getting that confused, or I might just not be looking hard enough in my post history. Sorry I can't help you much here.

[TheReverend]

I'm not liking Rev for 1446. The part b) explanation of post 1365 seems fabricated based on 1446.

- b

Here's your link to my watcher game... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 23&t=23831
My flavour was gay spiderman. That raised a few chuckles.

I don't care if you don't like my explanation. My flip will show you that my thought process is sincere, although flawed. I wouldn't be so quick to post crock of crap explanations if I were scum. If I'm scum, I can defend against not declaring tracker role quite easily, without having to say it's not a great role in my experience. I can just say "I had no intention of claiming tracker on d1", which there is truth in. I'm surprised that sven full claimed tbh. I wish he hadn't.

I understand why my slot is a problem for you guys. But you have to ask why as scum sven would first of all claim miller, then full claim miller-tracker for no apparant reason, and why I would come in and say stuff like "tracker role sucks" without having the means to back my comment up. I'm a lot more careful, at least I try to be, when scum. I tend to be haphazard when town, because I just post what I think and don't worry about how it's perceived by town. When scum, I read back my posts to try and make sure I'm not fucking up. Of course, this is self-meta, which isn't of any use to anyone who doesn't know my game. But jiffy is aware of my town game, and he knows I can be all over the place.

Here, have my only scum game on this site... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... =1&t=23589
All my other games on MS are town. I can link scum games from another site I play at if required.

[TheReverend]

^ this post inspired me to ISO MetalSonic, and wow, what a crock of shit is that? It seems to me like he's making up scum and town reads on the spot without even reading. His attempt to explain his reads is really bad, and this post is awful...

go iso yourself and see if it doesnt take 1 minute

It took me around that much time to ISO you, MS.

This is really lazy scum imo.

vote - Metal Sonic

[TheReverend]

I just ISO'd TIUEHGRKEW and TD. (Yes I just did a T and then hit lots of random letters, like I assume he did when he picked his name).

Both read town to me, though neither can be strong reads. Their posts seem sincere.

Metal Sonic's posts do not seem sincere.

Ghostlin is reading town to me at this stage. Again, seems sincere, he appears to be trying to figure shit out. Same as nacho.

So based on my limited reading, I have TJKWEAGFJKEWR, TD, nacho, orc, cabd and jiffy/mollie as town... GiF, BRO and MS as most likely scum.

There's some names I don't even recognise, haven't read anything from. Like dntfckncare and jon. I'll ISO them next.

[TheReverend]

Ok jon is clearly not scum, unless he's deliberately being quiet so he can pretend to have forgotten the game. No-one forgets a game in which they're scum.

dntfckncare is mostly fluff, so I get no read on him and he remains null.

[TheReverend]

Please stop doing this. I recently started reading you as town, and it hurts that you do things like this to me.

Shall I just float by and say nothing? I couldn't give a crap if people read me as scum, it's not like I'm expecting to make lylo. People will know I'm town before it matters.

[TheReverend]

vote - 2

Sheeping nacho here. I'm not sure I agree with him when he says varsoon is town, but I'm interested in varsoon if 2 and metal sonic are scum. That post vs me kinda felt like a chainsaw and bus all in one. Remember I said this if both 2 and metal flip scum.

[TheReverend]

@Reverend - Nacho is voting AJ.

My bad. I saw him saying he thought 2 was scum and assumed that's where his vote was, I've read some of nacho's ISO and he's had his vote there at some point.

Can't say I'm unhappy with my vote though. Orc has placed his vote there, nacho thinks 2 is scum, I'm happy this is a good lynch for today. If orc and nacho go for AJ, then I'll probably be on that one. I'm more confident in my town reads of orc and nacho than I am in any of my scum reads. That's why I'm happy to sheep them.

Enjoy your sheeping-journey. I'm looking forward to the unvoting part of it.

I'm looking forward to the bit where nacho changes to you.

[TheReverend]

pretty sure rev is the scum tracker

No, I'm not. I'm not gonna get into a rev vs jiffy argument with you when I'm miller, fuck that. This role is gonna be hard enough work as it is. If you think I'm scum, fine, you'll find out you're wrong soon enough.

The fact I'm tracker as well makes my role a little more interesting for town. I should be left a few nights, and then either policied, or shot by vig. That way, I die giving town info, and there's a chance scum NK me because of my PR. Depends if they think I'll make good use of it I guess. This is a large game, there's no hurry to lynch me. Just don't let me get to lylo, and I'm not a problem.

You're disgustingly terrible.

I don't pretend otherwise.

One thing... if you're town and I'm terrible, why aren't you all over me?

[TheReverend]

I don't pretend otherwise.

One thing... if you're town and I'm terrible, why aren't you all over me?

If you're insinuating what I think you're insinuating you may even be worse than I thought.

- b

nacho changed to you before I unvoted, didn't he? Ha.

It's friday night. I've been drinking and smoking and playing cards. I don't care if I'm terrible. I'm miller. I hope I die soon. Until it happens, I'll continue blurting out my opinion, because otherwise there would be no point in me playing, would there?

My point is... you've loosely complained about my self meta, you think I'm terrible, yet you don't seem to be making any attempt to apply any pressure on me. I don't sense any doubt about my role. You know I'm miller, don't you?

jiffy's suggestion I'm scum is sincere. He's wandering if I'm scum tracker, considering the reasons why sven might claim miller and then later claim miller tracker. This is town thought process. This is what you're lacking, little squared symbol.

I'm fully expecting a scum flip with 2.

[TheReverend]

I know at least one of your scumreads is wrong because TMT has dropped at least 6 newscumtells.

mebbe rev

and rev you are talking to mollie. I will be gentle

Oh yeah I gotta remember this slot is not just jiffy. Sorry. Me and jiffy tend have a tendancy to argue. It's quite fun actually. When your slot accuses me of being scum, it's easy to imagine jiffy looking smug. I don't even know what jiffy looks like. A cat reading a newspaper or something like that. So yeah, a smug cat. That's jiffy.

Town should decide today if I should die quickly or be left around so my PR can assist town. Now might be a good time to discuss how to get the best out of my role, should I be left alive. That might make it easier for town to decide if it's worth it. I'm not sure how to get the best out of a tracker role, especially when scum already know my PR, and that I'm a claimed miller for good measure. I'd quite appreciate discussion about my role tbh.

[TheReverend]

Wait, wait, wait, I just thought about your whole argument and it doesn't sit right with me.

You're saying that he's made a list of scum-suspects and so scum'll NK everyone not on the list, right?
So, is that a subtle way of showing you see Nacho as town?
Because I'm not seeing scum motivation for a Scum-Nacho to make a list if his plan was to NK everyone not on the list.

This took me 4 reads before BAM the logic smacked me in the face. I feel a lot better about varsoon now.

[TheReverend]

Mollie, you've played me when I'm town, right? I'm more than capable of spreading WIFOM when town, either for personal amusement, or to fuck with scum.

I obviously don't know what was going through sven's mind when he posted that. But in my experience (see malp in my scum game I linked), millers tend to play a strange game because it's a shitty role. I guess he wanted to amuse himself to make the game that little bit more enjoyable for him.

It's going to be very difficult for me to explain why sven was saying certain things. All I can say is it's obviously not a scum tell from my pov. Like I've said plenty of times already, so long as I am not allowed to make lylo, I am not a problem for town. There's a good chance we have a vig, that's how I expect to die tbh. Honestly, worrying about my role at this stage is wasting your time and effort. I'd suggest you focus on people who might actually be a problem for town later on.

I'm expecting to be vig'd way before it matters.

[TheReverend]

@Rev: We could always use my gambit to confirm your alignment/role.

What gambit? I'm sorry I haven't read the thread yet, I've just been ISO'ing those with small ISOs.

[TheReverend]

I'm not sure I trust you tbh. I'd be worried about these other two or three people.

[TheReverend]

I don't like it. I'd rather just be lynched. Even seeing who would be willing to be join the gabit might give scum clues as to whether they are PR or not, if I were cop for example I'd be very careful about stepping up to the plate. I feel this is going to help scum narrow the cop pool. So no, I don't like this idea. Maybe if orc and nacho want to play, I can play then, because orc and nacho have been named by me, and not stepped forward, and these guys are obviously high NK priority anyway, so it minimises scum information.

[TheReverend]

I'll leave it for nacho and orc to discuss. They can decide for me.

[TheReverend]

why do you not think that our hydra would not be a high nk priority?

I guess you are high NK priority, along with orc and nacho. Certainly if I were scum, and assuming you're all town, I'd be suggesting one of the three.

As for my town WIFOM, ask your hydra partner to read up on my first game at this site... the one where I was town and hammered jiffy town on final day for scum win. WIFOM is not necessarily a scum tell, it might be if one can find scum motivation for said WIFOM so I wouldn't say that it's a waste of time trying to figure out the reasons why someone would do it. Usually I do it to amuse myself, and that's what I assume sven was doing. There might also be a "fuck you town" mentality thrown in due to being miller getting a lot of grief, I have no idea about sven's meta so I really don't know.

I'm not going to throw my toys out of the pram if I get wagonned. I just don't really want it to happen for a few days so I can at least try to make use of my PR. But since my presence is a distraction for town, I'm a good default lynch if we get a claim near the deadline, or something like that. This is one reason why claiming miller as scum is not something you see often, it's very difficult to continually dodge lynch. Hats off to anyone who has actually survived as scum when claimed miller.

Rev is being the same kind of anti-town that he was the last time I played with him and he was town. I think being anti-town might be a town-tell for him.

When have I played with you before?

@varsoon... I'm willing to try your gambit out, though forgive me if I'm skeptical. I'm not quite sure how it's going to prove my alignment, especially since I'm aware it's a gambit. But I'm curious, I must admit.

[TheReverend]

When have I played with you before?

Are you really going to make me find it? I know we've played before and I

will

find it if you suggest that I'm making this up. What does it matter?

- b

Why does it matter? Because it's a lot easier for me to compare meta if I was actually involved in the game I'm reading. If you can't remember, don't worry, I'll find it, I was simply hoping you could save me the bother. I'm not suggesting you've made it up. buldermar is vaguely familiar. I'm pretty sure I haven't played ff.

I must admit your push towards MS and BRO is giving me doubts about you. My vote is on you simply because nacho is so sure you're scum. But you seem to be reading MS and BRO same as me. I think these two look like scum too.

Let's see if I can find our history then. For now I'm gonna unvote and form my own read on you.

unvote

[TheReverend]

Ok it was posh mafia where I played bulder. Here's a thought though... he says I was anti-town in a past game with him, but then goes on to say he can't remember which game it was... how can you remember the details of my performance if you can't even remember which game it was? And it turns out in hindsight that I was actually on the right track with ninja and vifam, so I feel it a bit harsh to be called "anti-town" for that performance, when compared to the average townie. And why am I playing anti-town in this one too, bulder? And if I am playing anti-town, why aren't you pushing for my lynch?

My vote is going back. Now it's my own read, rather than a sheep vote.

2

pedit - incorrect. You want to share you reasons for thinking scum, or are you just going to soft push people without providng us with any input?

[TheReverend]

vote 2

[TheReverend]

Because your reads suck

Why do my reads suck? Because you disagree with me? I'm beginning to think maybe my reads on BRO and MS do suck, but that's due to 2's push at them at a time he's in trouble. Of course my reads suck, I've probably read 10% of the thread. I could just skate by doing bugger all, but then my reads won't develop into ones that hopefully don't suck. I'm not sure why you're so keen to slap me down tbh orc.

[TheReverend]

1785 and 1793 are scum posts, I am off to a tourney or I'd do a more thorough case, expect one later tonight or tomorrow morning.

I'm looking forward to it. I might even self vote if it's a compelling enough case.

[TheReverend]

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

[TheReverend]

me me me me, quick before TD walls me

[TheReverend]

My role is already out there, and my wincon is posted in #2, so there's nothing to gain from what I can post. I had already typed a post out with this info and a question for mod, but he's answered already.

[TheReverend]

Does that makes sense?

Sort of. What doesn't make sense is that you actually thought posting my flavour paragraph in its entirity would be ok. I've already posted my role, that's as close to the line as I feel we're allowed. I'm happy to quote my wincon too, since it's the same as vanilla wincon in sample role pm in #2. But obviously that doesn't help determine my alignment. You've got my role flavour, you can decide for yourself if I'm scum who found a good flavour for sven's bullshit claim, or if mod had flavoured fakeclaims for scum, or if I am truthful.

pedit... how do scum know I'm miller? I dunno, because they know I'm now scum, and they would naturally question why a cop, for example, would fakeclaim miller when it runs the risk of a PL on d1.

[TheReverend]

now = not haha

[TheReverend]

Nah I'm not self voting. You're wrong TD. You'll see my flip soon enough.

I just did an ISO of mac, he can be added to my town camp, he's clean as fuck.

TD seems town to me. I think he does actually think I'm scum.

2, MS and varsoon are the people I'm most suspicious of right now.

[TheReverend]

Can't say I'm getting a scum vibe off AJ. I don't like the "confirmed scum" comments though. It's not that I disagree, I picked up a really weak town read when ISO'ing TMT but I emphasise really weak. It's the language. No-one is confirmed scum here.

But I feel good enough about AJ to move him into my weak town camp.

I'm busy over today and tomorrow, I'm trying to keep up as the game develops.

Here's what I have in my note file for now anyway... I'll be looking to expand these notes into something more substantial during the night phase.

scum pool... ², BROseidon, GuyInFreezer, Metal Sonic, RachMarie, Varsoon, Keybladewielder

weak town read... Andrius, Cabd, dntfkingcare, Ghostlin, TMTOLBTWNTOF, Aj The Epic

strong town read... BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, orcinus_theoriginal, Sajin, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath

[TheReverend]

Neither you nor jon have said anything that indicates town. Bit jumpy aren't you?

[TheReverend]

What have they said that indicates scum Rev?

Nothing. I thought jon's total lack of interest hints at town, but that alone isn't enough. I'll judge this slot on keyblade's input from here.

Anyone null is in the scum pool, ie rach and keyblade. They're gonna have to get towning.

[TheReverend]

Yeah me too. I'm the claimed miller. I'm far from up to date myself. But you certainly seem worried about being in someone's scum pool, which makes me suspicious.

[TheReverend]

I think varsoon is scum.

[TheReverend]

I'm reading varsoon's ISO and I'd like to rephrase that last comment...

varsoon is scum and it's obvious as shit.

[TheReverend]

Spoiler:

I'll claim town,
hey guys.

Why townclaim first post?

Oh, I'm just town. I'm not gonna claim any more than that, because then I'm doing scum's work for them.

Weird thing to say.

I'm not really convinced you're scum or town right now, Sven. Leaning more town than scum, but who knows?

Fence sitting on miller issue.

Don't worry so much about that, Orcinus. I'll be playing pretty regular town today with a bit of sleuthing if I find time for it.

More pointless town talk. This is still only his 2nd post, how many times has he said "town"?

Not putting a vote anywhere since I don't feel strongly enough to do so.

Still 2nd post.

VOTE: TiphaineDeath

Yeah still 2nd post.

Regardless, I'm not going to think of you as miller-tracker, but as Sven, the maybe-town-guy.

Not 2nd post any more! Still fence sitting on miller.

I'm always town. And never any cool roles, like Monado-wielder.

He really wants to emphasise his alignment, doesn't he?

I'm a girl, too. Girl-power, I guess.

Girl claim? Your profile says male! Obviously I'm not suggesting this is a scumtell, but it confuses me all the same.

@Sajin: You're probably scum, since you can't figure out anything from what I've posted so far and you're so quick to dismiss me as a useless fluffer of radio noise or whatever wiki-able word you're using this time. You've also been perched pretty conspicuously all game. Who remembers that Sajin is even in this game, off the top of their heads? Not I.
But, really, it makes me sad that you're so cruel, since I can only read you as a town jerk or scum trying to suffocate a weaker voice.

Scum claim harder please.

@Beauty&Beast: Think you're reading too much into things, also, I think it was GIF that you should attribute the "is that really a slip" to, rather than me. I could be wrong here, but, eh. Otherwise, I really like your performance in this game, so you're town in my books.

HARDER I SAY.

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.

Ooh that's good, that's real good.

Anyways,
VOTE: Orcinus_theoriginal

You're too infallible and it doesn't sit right. Town should be more skeptical of you.

Oh man that's the one, perfecto.

I can't be bothered to keep walling. Everything I read from varsoon gives me weird vibes. This is scum.

[TheReverend]

@2, I've had you has a scum-lean for most the game so far.
*crosses arms*

Why vote AJ, Nacho?

Okay. Where do you mention any reason for this scum-lean?

- b

Eh, Iso me.
If there's not any good reason in there, then, gut, I guess.

Regardless, I'd like to see your flip.

Obvious scum is obvious.

Just going through this gambit nonsense. Seems to me like a ridiculous charade designed to give him town cred. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think it's ok to post the info he asked for. I find it easier to believe he knew the gambit would not be accepted but that he felt he would look town for suggesting it.

[TheReverend]

Anyone with a town read on varsoon, please explain.

[TheReverend]

What are your other reads besides Varsoon?

I'm still here...

scum pool... ², BROseidon, GuyInFreezer, Metal Sonic, RachMarie, Varsoon, Keybladewielder

weak town read... Andrius, Cabd, dntfkingcare, Ghostlin, TMTOLBTWNTOF, Aj The Epic

strong town read... BeautyAndTheBeast, Mac, orcinus_theoriginal, Sajin, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath

[TheReverend]

@Rev, Give me a second, I'll refute all your points. I care, and I have you as town, but you're making me really doubt that, and, as town, that's probably not something you wanna do--make town think you're scum, that is.

Could you scum it up any more?

Again you use subtle town references to emphasise your alignment. I don't feel the need to do that when town. This follows from your very first post, which is a town claim. This is what I mean by obvious scum. It's almost too obvious.

I don't care if any townies think I'm scum. I'll either get lynched or vig'd, then yay the miller issue is cleared up. It's actually a lot easier to play miller than I anticipated, at least so far it is.

[TheReverend]

Then fucking vote for me, you shit.

This is feigned anger. Yet another scum tell. Does anyone think he's actually pissed with me because I ran a case vs him? I don't see why he'd be pissed if he's town.

I'm like 95% sure we have scum here in varsoon. I'm certainly willing to put my vote there.

vote - varsoon

If town doesn't want to swing for varsoon, I think I like an AJ lynch over 2 for this reason...

@Orc: Man, what do you have against me? I'd rather be your friend.
Also, why bring up something like "AJ or Varsoon, the guy who sheeped him", when in 367 you do the same thing with your vote?
I feel like you're scum-slipping, and you're trying too hard to play town-leader.

An AJ scum flip will look really bad for varsoon imo.

[TheReverend]

Cabd, you think TD is bussing varsoon here? I'd be more inclined to look at TD in the event of a varsoon town flip, though tbh I'd expect to die very fast if that were to happen. I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon. But if varsoon were to flip town, his vote would then be very opportunistic, and would rightly deserve scrutiny.

[TheReverend]

keyblade isn't exactly dripping in towntells here.

[TheReverend]

It confirmed Reverend as town for me, even if he's a really rude player.

If accusing people of being scum is rude, then I'm extremely rude, yes.

There's a lot for me to take in here. MetalSolid defending varsoon so hard is interesting.

He's not someone we can take to LYLO for example.

Referring to me, and this is true.

Ghostlin's #2108 is an excellent post, it strengthens my town read on him and in turn has me looking at TMT.

WAAAAIIIT a minute. how do you have nacho and orc down as town for the reasons you gave and me as scum when they are both sheeping my reads? like how does that even work?

also @ varsoon

you keep putting us in town and then you are putting us as scum and there is zero progression of your read. explain

Two very good questions.

I'd like to hear GIF and nacho's opinion on varsoon, in particular compared to his first game here. I had a look at varsoon's meta, I think this differes from his town game, but since nacho was a vet in varsoon's first noob game here, maybe nacho will be able to read his meta better than I will. GiF was the winning scum in that game, so his opinion on how he reads varsoon would be interesting too.

[TheReverend]

Here's a link for nacho and GiF... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 11&t=25954

One difference in particular I was looking for in varsoon's noob game was his reaction to town accusations.

Here's an example...

I don't blame you for thinking I'm scummy. I guess my noobishness is showing, I thought that encouraging people to chat a lot would be a good way to foster communication for town.

This is sincerity at its most blatant. I see none of that here. It took a long time for varsoon to acknowledge why he might appear scummy to people in this game. He has defended with insults and deflected with weak return attacks. This is in stark contrast to his attempts in his first game, where he defends with honesty and humility.

Varsoon is scum.

[TheReverend]

Varsoon, I think you're scum at this point, but honestly, I think a lot of it is mob mentality

I don't like the use of the term "mob mentality", it seems like he's appealing to fear, implanting ideas into town thought process. My case on varsoon mustered up one vote, hardly mob mentality. This stinks of an attempt to nip this wagon in the bud before it takes off.

[TheReverend]

I strongly believe Varsoon for town.

Rev, back off

This isn't sitting right with me at all. MS has 37 posts, I joined this game under a week ago and I'm up to 59 already. Up to this point, MS has had literally nothing to say about varsoon except "town" and "strong town". There's no explanation of how he has reached this conclusion. If MS is town, wouldn't you expect him to consider that maybe he's wrong about varsoon? To those townies here, how many of you read my case on varsoon with an open mind? I expect all of you. MS didn't. He's refusing to budge on varsoon, depsite being largely inactive.

If his reads are strong enough for him to hard defend, then he is actively lurking the hell out of this game.
And if his reads are not strong enough, then he is acting very anti-town by asking me to back off varsoon.

MS is scum. This is too easy.

[TheReverend]

Believe me, strong town blocks like this are scum's biggest nightmare. They're forced to infiltrate or allow town to be directed by them. And infiltrating is very difficult. I get a sense that perhaps this is what 2 has attempted, but he hasn't shaken off scum reads. It kinda reminds me of my masons game, where we had a town block of me, DJD and malakittens, and we owned the shit out of the scum. They just couldn't influence the wagons like we could.

I'm more than happy to sit back and allow a town bloc of orc, nacho, b2b and mac run this one. I kinda feel like a suicidal front line guy with an AK and a belt of grenades. I'll put my opinions out there, but I know full well I'll be voting in line with these four by the end of the day.

[TheReverend]

and rev you are fine

Aw thanks, glad this isn't punctuated!

What do you mean with the bolded part?

I mean what it says. I don't expect to be alive in this game for long. I was lazily defending vs TD, the "you'll see you're wrong soon" defence. I can't be btohered to fight my corner to be honest, I feel my time is better spent trying to scumhunt.

Could you explain this a bit more?

More fluffy questions. Again, it means exactly what it implies. I think varsoon is scum, I ISO him, as I read through, my scumread strengthens significantly. The language he uses. The manner in which he attacks people, and defends himself. The relentless townclaims. The shrugging off of awkward questions. Why don't you read his ISO and see if it becomes obvious to you?

[TheReverend]

I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon

Rev, would you not agree that his shift to varsoon could also be an opportunistic one? I didn't like the "Wow, just wow" comment, it didn't look particularly sincere to me.

- b

Cabd, you think TD is bussing varsoon here? I'd be more inclined to look at TD in the event of a varsoon town flip, though tbh I'd expect to die very fast if that were to happen. I have TD as town because his attack at me felt genuine. He might just have fooled me, sure, but I'm sticking with him in town pile for now, especially with his shift to varsoon. But if varsoon were to flip town, his vote would then be very opportunistic, and would rightly deserve scrutiny.

The answer to your question is in the post of mine you quoted. I can't help feel your trying very hard to make it look like you're probing.

[TheReverend]

what 2 is doing right now is spam posting and burying good content with shit posts

Can you explain this please so it looks like I'm a curious townie rather than scum spamming it up?

Forgive me if you already explained it in the same post as I quoted, I closed my eyes after reading the bit above.

[TheReverend]

Yeah jiffy, 2 is trying to bus ms here, stop trying to take credit away from him.

[TheReverend]

Alright maybe I'm wrong about varsoon.

[TheReverend]

I'm looking again at TD... his shift to varsoon is consistent with his earlier reads... the push at me still feels town driven... the sudden shift could be scum motivated, but could easily be town motivated too... he's swinging for ms too, who I still think is scum... yeah I'm happy with TD at this moment.

[TheReverend]

I'm all for going after the out-of-reach fruit, so to speak, but it only takes a few bad apples to ruin a bunch and the less bad apples the better. The longer the bad apples remain on the branch the heavier it gets until it snaps. We can lighten the load as we go.

Dude reading this this hurt my eyes.

[TheReverend]

@REV, what does your card say about when you are seered, paraphrase is fine.

I investigate as guilty.

[TheReverend]

unvote

[TheReverend]

@Rev
Did you read my explanation why varsoon is town?

Yeah, something about town mindset. I disagree. It was a messy gambit. It can easily be noob scum making a hash of something he saw in one of his earlier games.

But his #2253, while appealing to emotion, does seem like a genuinely frustrated townie. If that's a scum post, it's very fucking good. That's why I've backed off varsoon.

I think MS is scum though. Him demanding I back off varsoon is still sitting badly with me. I don't see the pro-town reasons for wanting someone to back off a town read. How can he be so sure varsoon is town?

I can see scum motivation for it though. Let's say I succeed in getting varsoon lynched... who looks good for trying to stop the wagon? It's basic scum strat, but in the total absence of any town motivation, this is what I'm leaning.

Hi venmar.

[TheReverend]

also rev I know you townread on varsoon but are you still curious why I see him as town?

If there's more than the "town mindset" you speak of, then yes, I'm curious. I'm also interested in why MS is town.

In the meantime...

vote - aj the epic

In actual game events, we only have 1 claim (Sven/Rev's) which caused a lot of discussion. He claimed Miller first and 10 pages later added tracker. On switch-in, Rev only claimed Miller. Later admitted to full claim being true, said he didn't want to full claim his power role even though he expected to get lynched. Something about "Oh trackers are useless anyways..."

This is painting a really scummy picture. I could accept this if AJ had demonstrated that he thinks I'm scum, but this isn't the impression I've been getting from him. In fact this recent post of his is the 4th time I see "rev" in his entire ISO, and one of those is in "forever". He has sven leaning scum while he's around, but he hardly mentions me. Yet the impression I get from this quoted paragraph is one of extreme doubt. Why hasn't he been pressing me if this is how he feels?

[TheReverend]

I'm pretty sure venmar is town. I was thinking it before his most recent post, but I wanted to see what he had to say about me before saying that. I'm sure he won't appreciate me reminding him, but in masons, I sniffed his scummy backside out pretty much instantly. He was first scum to die in a game that scum were totally owned by town, thanks mainly to me, djd and om. If in this game he replaced into a scum slot, I'd expect him to be very concerned about me. But I don't sense that. He reacted to pressure in that game with weak OMGUS at me, djd and om. This doesn't feel like the scum venmar I owned the shit out of in masons. Anyway, I'll try not to keep referring to that game, because while it's my finest game at this site, it's probably his worst. But it's relevant right now because my initial townread on ven is based on that game.

[TheReverend]

One huge venmar town tell for me that I forgot to mention is that venmar in masons was looking for scummy targets from the outset. Here he seems to be looking for town, thinning the pool.

[TheReverend]

Yeah scum were really unfortunate both me and DJD were vanilla and quickly put our trust in each other. I played that one really strategically, and seeing as I got shot twice, I think I played it well too. I only wish that was me every game lol.

[TheReverend]

The language you used didn't give that impression aj.

[TheReverend]

Ok let me ask you aj... are you leaning scum or town with me? How has your miller read evolved since sven left?

[TheReverend]

@varsoon... have you been scum before?

[TheReverend]

Yeah, I linked those games in this thread, I think.

Damn, I thought GiF just scumslipped. Ok, so why earlier did you say "I'm always town"?

[TheReverend]

I feel much better about an AJ lynch than 2. I'd rather wait until nacho and orc are back before voting 2 again.

[TheReverend]

I feel much better about an AJ lynch than 2. I'd rather wait until nacho and orc are back before voting 2 again.

2 is more dangerous. the head before the ass. do you know who taught me this? fery.

leave aj to get himself lynched at this point. it will be an easy one for tomorrow

2 is also more useful if town. It's d1 and this hydra has over 400 posts. Yes, a lot of fluff, and it could be a delibate tactic to keep himself top of the post count, but if he flips town or scum tomorrow, for example, we have so much more to analyse than if he flips town or scum today. Plus there's the chance of him being cleared (or damned) by night actions.

An AJ townflip wouldn't be quite the disaster a 2 townflip would be. But I can be convinced to vote 2 if this is the direction you, orc, nacho and mac agree on.

[TheReverend]

Unvote

Yo. Sup.

101 pages.

I will skip them all.

Who's scum? And who should I be sheeping?

Hi SAD. Don't trust little squared symbol dude. Mollie has a hard scum read on this slot. 2 is hydra of buldermar and fferyllt, buldy is dominant and is arguing with mollie like they're lovers. Mollie is the beast half of beauty&beast. The beauty is majiffy.

Town bloc = nacho, orc, mac and b&b... all four very likely town. I'm just waiting for these four to agree on a lynch so I can sheep them, but nacho and orc are V/LA and it's all gone a bit waa waa between buldy and mollie while they've been gone.

I'm the only claim so far, miller-tracker. Oh, varsoon claimed town. Fuck knows why, but he did.

MS is prob scum. ISO him and tell us what you think, I'll be surprised if it takes you ten minutes.

[TheReverend]

Yeah ok.

vote - metal sonic

[TheReverend]

^ rattled scum is rattled

[TheReverend]

buldy, do you think b&b is scum?

[TheReverend]

So what would be the motivation to lie if b&b is town? You're saying mollie is lying to push her agenda, what agenda is that is she's town?

[TheReverend]

All I know is that she's lying, as I've already pointed out, and that she's being inherently anti-town in doing so.

The from your town pov she's scum. I don't know if she's lying or not, what I do know is that if someone was pushing for my mislynch by lying, I would not consider that person town, because there is no town motivation for lying to push lynches.

vote - 2

That's L-2

[TheReverend]

And 2 has gone quiet. Discussing fakeclaim with f is it?

[TheReverend]

What you would or not would consider that person is entirely up to you, but I think you're making a mistake in asserting that anti-town behavior is automatically scummy behavior.

Anti-town behaviour is not inherently scummy. Lying to push a mislynch is. I find it incredible that you can accuse mollie of lying to push for your lynch, yet still sit there and insist she's town. Maybe if you both flip town, I'll learn from that. But right now I find it very hard to believe that both of you are town. And since I'm reading b&b as strong town, that kinda narrows down my options here.

[TheReverend]

Isn't steely dan a dildo? Yeah let's do dildo mafia.

[TheReverend]

Why are you even talking to me when you're just going to go by your own hypothesis of lying being scummy anyway?

I'm sorry, is trying to interact with someone in order to attempt to determine that person's alignment not cool? Why are you asking me why I'm talking to you? I think you're scum, this tiff with mollie reinforces that read, I'm interacting with you now to see if you come across as town, seeing as we have a few days left and you're at L-2. You are failing to convince me my vote is in the wrong place. You should know why I'm talking to you. And I really think that you should be concerned about mollie's alignment if you are so convinced she is lying to push for your mislynch. Maybe I'm wrong there, but you telling me I'm wrong won't convince me, two town flips will convince me, and that isn't happening today.

[TheReverend]

Fine. Hurry up and claim. You're obviously today's lynch.

[TheReverend]

Here's why 2 doesn't want to push mollie's "lying" as a scum tell... they do want to go 1v1 against someone who is considered town by most.

[TheReverend]

Here's why 2 doesn't want to push mollie's "lying" as a scum tell... they do

not

want to go 1v1 against someone who is considered town by most.

fmp

[TheReverend]

I don't understand this need to get angry in mafia games. It's either feigned anger to appear town, or if you're actually angry, you take shit too seriously. There's a few people here who need to chill.

You tell me my mind is made up. It is not, or at least it wasn't before this exchange. I already stated that I prefer to lynch AJ over you because I feel you are a greater loss to town if it's a mislynch.

I haven't said lying is a scum tell. I said lying to push a mislynch is a scum tell. The fact that you have accepted mollie as town, regardless of what I consider clear scum motivation, is alarming. In your shoes, if I really felt mollie was lying, I would reassess my town read on her with the utmost urgency. You seem to be set on mollie being town, despite your claims she's lying. This, to me, is incredibly scummy. You're not being flexible, you are rigid.

I think you sum it up quite neatly when you state that only two town flips are going to convince you; if that's the case there really isn't a purpose of our conversation.

Of course there's a point to this conversation. It was entirely possible that you could convince me mollie is indeed deliberately lying to push your mislynch, which in turn would have me reassess my town read of her. I would expect maybe you would do the same. But you're digging your feet in, refusing to back down from your town read, and suggesting my mind was made up long ago. It wasn't, if my mind was made up long ago, why did I try to get some momentum into the MS counter-wagon?

I'm happy with my vote.

[TheReverend]

lol nice vote wayne

[TheReverend]

I get why orc's comments raised eyebrows, but tbh I consider it null, I mean he wouldn't exactly want his scum game to be transparent, regardless of his role this game. I won't be worried about orc unless he's still alive deep into the game.

[TheReverend]

but I don't see what kind of scum-motivation there would be for me to deliberately disagree with you rather than just faking being suspicious of her.

I already stated what I think your scum motivation is for maintaining a town read on her... if you push this as a scumtell, then you run the risk of 1v1 vs a universal townread. Sure, what rev town does and what buldy town does are two different things, but I can't help be alarmed by your rigid townread on someone you openly accuse of deliberately lying to push your lynch.

I'm going out now, it's friday night etc, I'll reassess tomorrow when I'm sober. I hope in the meantime we have orc and/or nacho back involved.

[TheReverend]

I have an asshole and I'm not scum.

[TheReverend]

I have an asshole and I'm not scum.

Put this in your sig plz.

Test.

[TheReverend]

Pfft no sig. Too drunk.

[TheReverend]

venmar you bastard, why did you have to destroy my townread on you?

[TheReverend]

buldy buldy buldy, you online? talk to us before we string you up!

[TheReverend]

not gonna tell you who to track but when D 2 happens be sure to let us know who you did track and the result Rev

Yeah we'll see about that. Depends what I've got. I might initially keep info to myself because then fakeclaiming is that little bit more difficult for scum.