Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[Keybladewielder]

Will be V/LA until Friday or Saturday

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I've never read town write "Wow, just wow."
Scumslip.

God damn it, I hate this reasoning, it's a sack of shit from the abyss. 95% of 'scumslips' aren't.

Unlike reaction tests, the majority of players that accuse of scum slips aren't necessarily town.

TD's horrible because he's posting in a way that doesn't involve a huge amount of scum hunting and isn't alignment indicative. (Generally, people who are Town want to be helpful in this regard.) Not because of "wow, just wow."

You're almost playing this game like scum Ghostlin would play it, create as much chaos as possible, keep people guessing if you're town or scum, and then ride the bullshit wave to a victory. Be sure not to include any actual thoughts beyond the most shallow, you can't fake reasoning well anyhow. (Yes. Self-meta's useless, but you're acting in a way I feel I would act if I got a scum role.)

The 'gambit' that I thought only Town would be dumb enough to suggest..I'm still wrapping my head around if that's still true, because you act a little insanely stupid and then you slip me a mindfuck mickey

.

I feel this exact same way. I think he is crazy. he will say some really good things but the rest of is...crazy. majiffy half has him down as VI.

[Metal Sonic]

me me me me, quick before TD walls me

Alright, the first step, then.

This'll be easier with you than most other players, actually.


I want a full claim from you, including the flavor paragraph and character that you are.
This shouldn't be hard, since you already claimed and all that.

Alright, whatever. I'll maybe take your anti-town comments on board if you flip town. Maybe. I still think you're scum, I find it strange that you're not applying any pressure on me. I'd expect townies to be extremely wary of me, because of my tracker modifier. Mollie is on the ball when she worries about a scum tracker. Like I said earlier, town thought process. Scum know I'm miller. Townies do not know. You don't seem to be interacting with me in a way that makes me believe you don't know what my role is. Therefore, I think you're scum. So my vote stays.

You inherited my read on svenskt, which went to pretty strong town when he replaced out. Prior to that I was willing to wait a day and see how my read shaped up. Our vote is on someone we agree looks scummy.

- f

Wait, wait, wait.
How does scum know he's miller?
Because, as far as I know, scum would only know who other scum is.
I guess he means that scum can infer that he's miller because they know he's town and he claimed miller?
Still, blah, I had a townread on sven and I'm way less sure about Rev.

I recommend paraphrasing the shit out of that stuff because mod kill. Also, suggest you guys check with bork before proceeding.

- f

Doesn't work if he paraphrases.
It -should- be rules legal, given that he's not taking a screen-cap, etc.
Because there's nothing that lets us know if he's 100% quoting the PM, right?


P-Edit:

Ah well.
My idea was to counterclaim with my PM, minus role, and then third parties could confirm that the rhetoric fits, etc.
/shrug
It -would- work if it was rules legal, but I guess not.

Makes me think--in a Lylo situation, all players could quote their role PMs directly, and the one guy who isn't modkilled is the scum, because he would have to lie or be modkilled. Then again, I guess if everyone is modkilled, there's no one to lynch the remaining scum.

This shit is legit

Not exactly scummy though, but worth a laugh

[GuyInFreezer]

Not liking 2's posts so far. Too snarky. (1851)

@V 1865 - wat

@Nacho 1880 - Amen.

@KBW 1896 - Hi.

2's posts are getting better at this point, willing to discuss something instead of being a stonewall. (1924)

1936 is pretty good case on AJ. Nacho how do you see between real and fake paranoia? I have 1 game experience with AJ (me scum and AJ town). Even though he posted like 2~3 times in there, I'm gonna go back to that game and compare the posts.

Reached my V/LA post. Gonna take a break now.

[TheReverend]

It confirmed Reverend as town for me, even if he's a really rude player.

If accusing people of being scum is rude, then I'm extremely rude, yes.

There's a lot for me to take in here. MetalSolid defending varsoon so hard is interesting.

He's not someone we can take to LYLO for example.

Referring to me, and this is true.

Ghostlin's #2108 is an excellent post, it strengthens my town read on him and in turn has me looking at TMT.

WAAAAIIIT a minute. how do you have nacho and orc down as town for the reasons you gave and me as scum when they are both sheeping my reads? like how does that even work?

also @ varsoon

you keep putting us in town and then you are putting us as scum and there is zero progression of your read. explain

Two very good questions.

I'd like to hear GIF and nacho's opinion on varsoon, in particular compared to his first game here. I had a look at varsoon's meta, I think this differes from his town game, but since nacho was a vet in varsoon's first noob game here, maybe nacho will be able to read his meta better than I will. GiF was the winning scum in that game, so his opinion on how he reads varsoon would be interesting too.

[TheReverend]

Here's a link for nacho and GiF... http://www.forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopi ... 11&t=25954

One difference in particular I was looking for in varsoon's noob game was his reaction to town accusations.

Here's an example...

I don't blame you for thinking I'm scummy. I guess my noobishness is showing, I thought that encouraging people to chat a lot would be a good way to foster communication for town.

This is sincerity at its most blatant. I see none of that here. It took a long time for varsoon to acknowledge why he might appear scummy to people in this game. He has defended with insults and deflected with weak return attacks. This is in stark contrast to his attempts in his first game, where he defends with honesty and humility.

Varsoon is scum.

[TheReverend]

Varsoon, I think you're scum at this point, but honestly, I think a lot of it is mob mentality

I don't like the use of the term "mob mentality", it seems like he's appealing to fear, implanting ideas into town thought process. My case on varsoon mustered up one vote, hardly mob mentality. This stinks of an attempt to nip this wagon in the bud before it takes off.

[TheReverend]

I strongly believe Varsoon for town.

Rev, back off

This isn't sitting right with me at all. MS has 37 posts, I joined this game under a week ago and I'm up to 59 already. Up to this point, MS has had literally nothing to say about varsoon except "town" and "strong town". There's no explanation of how he has reached this conclusion. If MS is town, wouldn't you expect him to consider that maybe he's wrong about varsoon? To those townies here, how many of you read my case on varsoon with an open mind? I expect all of you. MS didn't. He's refusing to budge on varsoon, depsite being largely inactive.

If his reads are strong enough for him to hard defend, then he is actively lurking the hell out of this game.
And if his reads are not strong enough, then he is acting very anti-town by asking me to back off varsoon.

MS is scum. This is too easy.

[Aj The Epic]

1936 is pretty good case on AJ. Nacho how do you see between real and fake paranoia? I have 1 game experience with AJ (me scum and AJ town). Even though he posted like 2~3 times in there, I'm gonna go back to that game and compare the posts.

It's your fault for killing me off 2-3 posts into the game...

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

I see myself as a weaker voice because I don't have very much experience on this site. More experienced players are less likely to consider what I have to say, and actually seem to prefer conversations that exclude me. Often, I bring up who I think is scum, and it gets largely ignored, or blown off as me giving off lots of noise rather than actually hunting scum.
The suffocation of a weak voice refers to when people discredit me, or other players who aren't given much town-merit. Something along the lines of what Orc is doing, where he considers everything I have to say as absurd, rather than, you know, holding some sort of content or approach. It's especially bad when personal assaults are tied in, as it makes me not want to do work for town because town doesn't care/will treat me like crap whenever I do. The same goes for people treating other players that way. Suffocation is a way of keeping town that could have a say from wanting to participate, and, therefore, reads as scummy to me.
I feel I am a weak voice because I can't start a wagon, no matter how much evidence or text or effort I pour into it. I can put a vote, but people won't buy it unless it's backed by one of the 'bigger' players.

okay I think I can help here cos I know what is like to feel left out. and I don't mean crazy in a pejorative way, I think orc is batshit insane sometimes but I love him and love playing with him.

what is happening is that nacho/orc/mac/us all have town reads on each other and are actively trying to work together. imagine all of us huddled in a group, facing out with guns cocked and loaded....moving in a herd. it would take a cop read for us to back from our town reads on each other. if you do any online gaming nacho is tanking, mac and I are dpsing and orc is guarding our rear with a cannon. nacho is trying to pull people in and move scum out. we are trying bottleneck scum's options by not giving them any room to hide. we are trying to pave the way for a town win.

what makes a strong player is not starting and leading bws or running gambits. what makes a strong player are players who know how to find town and work with others so that town can control the lynches, not scum. different people lead at different times and play different roles and all of those are necessary and good. town wins as a team and loses as a team. when people play their roles well, town wins.

town generally moves in herds, that is why it is scums job to get in there stir up wifom and get the herd dispersed and disorganised. we are trying to make that does not happen. ever.

stop it with the gambits all those usually do is give scum room to hide, stop sulking cos you feel like no one is listening to you or following you and come join our team cos nacho wants to give you a gun but I am afraid you will shoot us in the back over ungrounded paranoia. but w/e...from here on out it is your choice.

I hope this makes sense.

[TheReverend]

Believe me, strong town blocks like this are scum's biggest nightmare. They're forced to infiltrate or allow town to be directed by them. And infiltrating is very difficult. I get a sense that perhaps this is what 2 has attempted, but he hasn't shaken off scum reads. It kinda reminds me of my masons game, where we had a town block of me, DJD and malakittens, and we owned the shit out of the scum. They just couldn't influence the wagons like we could.

I'm more than happy to sit back and allow a town bloc of orc, nacho, b2b and mac run this one. I kinda feel like a suicidal front line guy with an AK and a belt of grenades. I'll put my opinions out there, but I know full well I'll be voting in line with these four by the end of the day.

[Varsoon]

@B&B: I explained that I waffled a lot on you already, it doesn't really make it that big of a deal when you point it out after the fact. /shrug. I'm just paranoid as hell in this game.
It also feels like I'll never be accepted as a member of the team.
Weakest link, third wheel, etc.

How does the 'town bloc' feel about lynching TD, TMT, or Metal Sonic today?

[Mac]

@B&B: I explained that I waffled a lot on you already, it doesn't really make it that big of a deal when you point it out after the fact. /shrug. I'm just paranoid as hell in this game.
It also feels like I'll never be accepted as a member of the team.
Weakest link, third wheel, etc.

How does the 'town bloc' feel about lynching TD, TMT, or Metal Sonic today?

I would not lynch TD today. out of the other two I'd lynch Metal Sonic over TMT.

my two strongest suspects are Aj and 2, due to some of my own work and trust mollie on her reads on both of them. due to my suspicions of Aj I am writing TD off as town for the moment.

I could possibly apply the same logic to TMT (Aj pushing him) hence the preference of MS over him. but TMT has been pretty bad this game so far, he needs to up it or face the chop.

[Ghostlin]

WAAAAIIIT a minute. how do you have nacho and orc down as town for the reasons you gave and me as scum when they are both sheeping my reads? like how does that even work?

No. The cannot read a damn pile is for people I can't read a damn. There's an a greater likelihood you're probably Town, and I'm really, really not interested in a 2 lynch at this time, for example or a you lynch. That's why the list is from what I see as possible most scummy motivation to least scummy motivation.

Rach, maybe, but I can't help her trolling the thread has some arcane purpose. Stranger things have happened.

Varsoon, for example.

Why not place the hydras as null with Rach? Because I can't even read you as that, really. A null is someone who's either given me equal reads or hasn't pinged me with their towniness/scuminess. You and 2, I'm literally stumbling around in the dark, looking for a flashlight. Then again, I'm not good at hydrae.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

varsoon if you are not accepted it will be because of your choice.

we are probably going to be lynching 2 today. nacho has a smoking gun on aj and I have one tying aj and 2 together. it will be discussed in postgame.

mac asked you some questions about how you got your read on 2 from the gambit and I think that you ought to go back and look at those cos your answers were based on a series of erroneous assumptions that made about 2 and how 2 would have reacted to it. those were some really good questions.

and rev you are doing fine. a lot of people have mixed opinions when it comes to town blocs. I have gotten burned putting scum in bloc before but meh I have had way more success than failures with them.

and rev you are fine

eta: ghostlin, how about you tell me what do you find scummy so that we can have some interaction that will firm up your read.

[Ghostlin]

Here's some disjointed reading of that pile:

Rach:

is nearly impossible for me to read because of the trolling. I'm almost ready to sheep everyone else, but the trolling could be more sinister, like I think Varshoon mindfucking the thread is.

2:

I have an association tell that might not be accurate or reversible if TMT flips scum, which I'm expecting he will. No one's bit on this assumption. Regardless, the tell would be greater if we lynched TMT, NOT 2 today. Otherwise? It reads two people occupying a mafia slot, neither one of them scummy and I'm not going into the WIFOM that's by design.

You (Beauty and the Beast):

Read like two people occupying a mafia slot, neither one of you are pinging my scumdar. I've not been ignoring what you're saying, and I know you've been sheeped by many Town members, and the results of that sheeping might help me uncover your alignment, but there's not much there, and I'm not going to unsheep an unknown in my calculations on who is scum.

Regardless, lynching 2/BB is a bad play today and no one is interested enough in Rach and I'm not in the mood in that kind of PL anyway. If we lynched Don't's slot, that'd be another thing.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: unsheep an unknown=sheep an unknown

[Ghostlin]

ghostlin, how about you tell me what do you find scummy so that we can have some interaction that will firm up your read.

If I told you literally nothing, would you lynch me for telling the truth? Because that's the truth.

You don't seem to be engaged in obfuscatory behavior like Varshoon; you're not posting reads with no rhyme, reason or meaning like MS; you're definitely accurate and there's something to read unlike TD; you've read my TMT case by now--I forgot to mention the rest of his posts are fluff, and KBW has done all of the above, plus has utterly failed to turn around a slot I didn't like for it's lack of contribution.

But I can't read you the same way I read a single player. I've found, at least in my case, hydrae don't necessarily work that way. I want to desperately believe you guys are Town, but I can't invest the head capital in it.

[Ghostlin]

^Although, to TBF, you get a Town cookie for making me think and and engage with that question.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP 2140: When I'm talking about 2 occupying a mafia slot, you should read this as mafia, the game, not the fact I think think they are mafia. I'll generally use scum or scummy.

[Mac]

Ghostlin.

how can BatB read like two people occupying a mafia slot when none of them are pinging your scumdar? I could be wrong here but what I am reading is you classing them as scummy because there are two heads rather than a single head which is rather poor. I just don't understand your logic here. BatB is in the town bloc because they are pretty much universally read as town; you should probably just sheep the remainder of the town bloc's read on them rather than class them as scum because you can't read them.

I'm not even sure that para makes sense and could absolutely crumble if I am misunderstanding you.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin.

how can BatB read like two people occupying a mafia slot when none of them are pinging your scumdar? I could be wrong here but what I am reading is you classing them as scummy because there are two heads rather than a single head which is rather poor. I just don't understand your logic here. BatB is in the town bloc because they are pretty much universally read as town; you should probably just sheep the remainder of the town bloc's read on them rather than class them as scum because you can't read them.

I'm not even sure that para makes sense and could absolutely crumble if I am misunderstanding you.

Read 2144, Mac. I'm referring to the game mafia. I actually generally do NOT use the term mafia to describe scum.

[BeautyAndTheBeast]

ghostlin, how about you tell me what do you find scummy so that we can have some interaction that will firm up your read.

If I told you literally nothing, would you lynch me for telling the truth? Because that's the truth.

You don't seem to be engaged in obfuscatory behavior like Varshoon; you're not posting reads with no rhyme, reason or meaning like MS;

you're definitely accurate

and there's something to read unlike TD; you've read my TMT case by now--I forgot to mention the rest of his posts are fluff, and KBW has done all of the above, plus has utterly failed to turn around a slot I didn't like for it's lack of contribution.

But I can't read you the same way I read a single player. I've found, at least in my case, hydrae don't necessarily work that way. I want to desperately believe you guys are Town, but I can't invest the head capital in it.

what am I definitely accurate about?

[TiphaineDeath]

Rev continues to make sense, Ms is scum, varsoon is scum, I like this guy.

I am slightly V/LA due to being sick, but I will continue to try to be at least slightly usefull.

[Ghostlin]

ghostlin, how about you tell me what do you find scummy so that we can have some interaction that will firm up your read.

If I told you literally nothing, would you lynch me for telling the truth? Because that's the truth.

You don't seem to be engaged in obfuscatory behavior like Varshoon; you're not posting reads with no rhyme, reason or meaning like MS;

you're definitely accurate

and there's something to read unlike TD; you've read my TMT case by now--I forgot to mention the rest of his posts are fluff, and KBW has done all of the above, plus has utterly failed to turn around a slot I didn't like for it's lack of contribution.

But I can't read you the same way I read a single player. I've found, at least in my case, hydrae don't necessarily work that way. I want to desperately believe you guys are Town, but I can't invest the head capital in it.

what am I definitely accurate about?

Generally, when I read you, you have precise opinions and reads. For example, you just, under full disclosure, explained to Varshoon that the 'I don't fit in' AtE will not work with you and that you and three other people who read you as Town are working together in a mob to root out scum. It's accurate to your game state through the posts I've read, I know exactly what the fuck it is you're thinking/doing, and I don't have to dig for motivation there (and with a 85 page Day 1, I'll do it but I don't like it).