Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Mr. Flay]

Spoiler: backstory/data/old threads

Newbie Setup (wiki link)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22564 (current data)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17119
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13969 (LOTS of older data)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13893
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13224
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4846
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9942 (pretty much everything else from earlier, summed up by Adel in the first post)

Okay, we don't HAVE to change the setup again. But I think it's worth looking at it in a slightly different way this time.

Instead of trying to come up with a single foreverbest Semi-Open setup like F11 or C9 or 2of4, I think we should take the 'chunks' of those setups that are usable and combine them into a roster than the Newbie List Mod can PICK FROM and assign to a game moderator.

Assumptions going into this thread:

1. 2:X Mountainous is never going to be a GOOD setup for Newbies. They might win it occasionally, but it will be by accident.
   
2. Conversely, there should always be at least 5 Vanilla Townies in the game
   
3. That assumes that we're sticking with a 9p setup, which I think is best.
   
4. List Mod MUST assign the setup. Whether that's random or according to the astrological tables, I don't really care, but the latest data shows that after ten years, we're still not able to reliably randomize semiopens.
   
5. It's probably best to avoid any explicit Mafia-Team-is-X-Y-so-they-know-Town-is-A-B-CCCCC setup options, but I'm willing to hear arguments otherwise.

What am I missing for baseline assumptions? Do we aim for a 50-55% Town EV?

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, and obviously singersigner gets final say on what happens, I just wanted to get the ball rolling in a more organized fashion than usual.

[Mr. Flay]

Are themeing things precluded entirely? i.e. giving everyone flavorful names but regular roles

Death scene flavor is GREAT, encouraged, etc, subject to the normal rules about mods not passing on information. Role PM flavor is extremely limited, in that it shouldn't be based on source material, shouldn't distort or make in any way possible to mistake what your role is, nor should it inadvertently create Named Townies. So "You are Sergio of the Camorra Family, here to take over this small town" is probably fine. "Doc Williams of Tinytown" is okay, but kinda pointless. "Neville Longbottom, Gryffindor Townie" is Right Out.

singer can clarify this answer, of course, but Newbie Games#Moderators is pretty clear.

What is this site even shooting for with the newbie games? Teaching? Fun? Even winning percentage? Or a mix of two or three?

Others can correct/expand on this, but when I ran the Newbie Queue, it was a combination of weeding out flakers and those who were going to hate the site meta, introducing true newbies to the mechanics in a small manageable (fun) game setup, and having a reasonable chance at winning for either faction. I think factional balance is actually the least important of the three, but it's usually the thing cited in wanting to change the setup, so YMMV.

[Mr. Flay]

I think however that it's best to have a variable Open setup for the Newbies

Why?

[Mr. Flay]

Too high - you're saying Town is as likely to win as not by rolling dice. What you want is an even EV across all setups.

Since Towns have NEVER won as likely as not by rolling dice across this entire site (even the broken Original Newbie), I am not sure I understand your argument here. But I can agree with aiming for an even EV.

just to be clear, i meant if the setup is open, it should also be variable

i can't really put into words why. i think it probably discourages lots of setup spec/discussion, and is generally more interesting

To be clear, I'm not saying that the Setup chosen should be in the first post of the game; only that instead of going for a holy grail of One True Variable Setup, we list 5 or 6 current possibilities (or just don't list them out at all, but have the list on the wiki or something), and go from there.

I'm not sure why you see setup speculation as a bad thing. It's a major feature of the site.

[Mr. Flay]

It's probably best to avoid any explicit Mafia-Team-is-X-Y-so-they-know-Town-is-A-B-CCCCC setup options, but I'm willing to hear arguments otherwise.

Extrapolating after sleep, it's probably useful to say that no single PR flip should reveal the entire setup. So any given Power Role, Town or Scum, should be in at least two options. Sound fair?

[Mr. Flay]

We've gathered enough data over the years to conclude that cops are definitely not overpowered.

Agreed. Even Cop+Doc is not overpowered when the PRs don't KNOW it's there.

I can definitely see where StrangerCoug is coming from. In

principle

, I am against List Mod-assigned setups for the same reason - we are providing a public service by modding and we should be able to expect a degree of trust from the community, players and officials alike.

However, I suspect that there is more non-random generation going on than we would like to believe. Whereas a mod has a motivation to choose their favourite setup, the List Mod has no such motivation. So in

practice

, I support us being given the setup by the List Mod.

Ding ding! We have a winner!

If it were remotely possible to prove who was not-randomizing (as opposed to proving you ARE randomizing via the ludicrous amount of effort of videotaping yourself), I'd be for it. But proving a negative example in a forest of games is not feasible. This is literally just shifting one tiny bit of effort from one person to another, for a net gain of unbiased game distribution. Win/win/win.

---

Timeater, do you have some setups in mind? If they're good they're good, but some are only good in the context of a certain sitemeta.

[Mr. Flay]

Unfortunately, the nature of play on EM means that setups like the original newbie setup (2 Mafia Goons, 1 Cop, 1 Doc, 3 VTs) are balanced. (It has a 50% Town / 49% Mafia win rate.)

Cop+Doc is not overpowered when the PRs don't KNOW it's there.

[Mr. Flay]

Because the original newbie setup on MS was deemed unbalanced and yet on EM it has a 50/50 winrate.

You are missing/mistaken about your history. Original Newbie was unbalanced BECAUSE IT WAS AN OPEN SETUP. When you know both the Cop and Doc are in the game with 2 Goons, a breaking strategy evolves quickly (ICs tried to keep it from becoming public knowledge, but it was rediscovered several times).

If the Cop doesn't know they can rely on the Doc's protection, it becomes a perfectly usable option among setups.

[Mr. Flay]

SEs the list is long so increasing them percent wise would help.

I don't think it'd have a big effect on newbies since while percent wise there's less of them per game having games be smaller mean more will likely start so them running out I wouldn't find surprising.

Newbie Games aren't *for* SEs though, they're for newbies. Reducing the percentage of Newbies playing for more ICs is one thing, but pushing more SEs into the game setup is silly.

If the list is too long, SEs should go play in some other queue.

[Mr. Flay]

I think it would be wise to stay away from fully open setups, as I feel it makes massclaiming too powerful, and those games are supposed to be about learning to scumhunt, not finding a breaking strategy.

Semi-open with an element of uncertainty is best IMO.

Again,

we're not discussing making the newbie games Open Setup

. We're discussing having either a single Semi-Open Setup, or a stable of Open Setups that are chosen from at random by the List Mod, and given to the Game Moderator.

That makes it functionally a Semi-Open, albeit with different branches than we're used to seeing.

[Mr. Flay]

I think trying to design a 'single' Semi-Open in which all options are functionally identical in EV and yet different enough to keep the interest of the ICs/SEs is a fool's errand. That's why the 'Stable of Opens' is what I'm pushing. I'm not in charge of the decision though, singer is.

If you don't know the setup when the game starts, it's not an Open. If you can figure it out once 2 Power Roles are dead, yeah at that point it's open, but you're probably also in endgame. I dunno, I don't see the big deal, and I DON'T think it's a good idea that our newbies get used to always having a known Open Setup for their first games here. It'll cripple them on other games later IMO, in a way that Semi-Open doesn't.

I've proposed it before, but I really think we need a bridge position between SEs and ICs.

SEs right now are a really broad position. Two games, and that's it. You can fill that requirement in less than a month. You can also be playing as an SE with years under your belt. That's a lot of variety.

We have one. It's called "the rest of the site".

[Mr. Flay]

I did batches as NGLM because signups were that fast, or I wouldn't get to the thread before more than one game was full. I have no idea why singer is batching them at the current pace.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, and at any point in the game, you should replace Newbies with Newbies unless no one is available for an unreasonable period of time.

[Mr. Flay]

Granted, not all mods are supergood at that unwritten rule (coughbuttonscough) but that's the general idea.

Aha; that used to be the written rule, but VRK changed it in 2009 to make it easier to find replacements.

Personally I think it was a fine rule (try Newbies first for Newbies, etc), but I'm a grumpy old man.
[/getoffmylawn]

[Mr. Flay]

It's not the 'rule' anymore unless singer says it is. But it's good practice (I was wondering why so many Newbie Games were 'weeding out' their newbies by midgame anymore).

[Mr. Flay]

There's not a problem with ICs anymore in the newbie queue, and hasn't been for ages.

Only because we dropped the requirement to 1 IC/game.

[Mr. Flay]

Granted, not all mods are supergood at that unwritten rule (coughbuttonscough) but that's the general idea.

Aha; that used to be the written rule, but VRK changed it in 2009 to make it easier to find replacements. At any point in the game, you should replace Newbies with Newbies unless no one is available for an unreasonable period of time.

If that is an 'unwritten rule' and it's

expressly

stated that players with any level of experience can replace into Newbie slots, don't expect newer mods to know.

I'm failing my Advanced MafiaScum History class.

I understand the interest of wanting to keep a similar level of play in a slot (in Newbie games and in any other game, really), but I prefer to go for the first person who contacts me and fits the experience requirements. Altogether, filling slots "first come, first serve" seems less disruptive for the game from a mod perspective than waiting a longer period for a potential newbie replacement.

What I'm trying to politely say is that I have NO IDEA why VRK changed it in 2009. It's a bad change and it leads to the inevitable migration of slot-ratio away from what the game is designed/aimed at.

[Mr. Flay]

Right. We need a 'standard' for how long to wait (I'd say 24 hours is plenty, if you're on top of your replacement needs), but all things being equal, like should replace like.

singer??

[Mr. Flay]

Closed would essentially be an even larger Semi-Open, since balance is such a fiddly thing at 9p.

[Mr. Flay]

Absolutely agree (I never "learned" to separate swinginess from overall balance).

[Mr. Flay]

Miller in NG is a terribad idea.

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, I think the real problem is that it punishes scumhunting, not something we want to encourage in Newbie Games.

[Mr. Flay]

Also same time of year.

[Mr. Flay]

1/4 of F11 (and C9, for that matter) setups were secretly mountainous. That gives Town a very hard row to hoe, and it reflects in the results data

[Mr. Flay]

The only downside with using the top 3 is that scum knows there are 2 PRs if they have a RB. Other than that, using the top three seems alright.

You could resolve that by making them a 0% RB in the other setups.

That seems like a worse cure than the disease, frankly.

[Mr. Flay]

But it seems like the "not able to guess the setup based on our roles" goal conflicts with the "semi open" goal.

Hence my suggestion that no role be in less than 2 setup options.

But yeah, the Good Parts version of F11 is a good place to start.

[Mr. Flay]

I actually don't understand what you're asking, greyaday. We've already said we don't understand why they're batched, but singer has been moving and hasn't replied.

[Mr. Flay]

When I started, there were no such things as SEs and there were two ICs in the game. I think they canned that because they couldn't get enough ICs.

Basically, yeah. And I can't remember the exact genesis of SEs, but it had something to do with people wanting to play the game more, and the queue clogging.

[Mr. Flay]

Feature not a bug.

[Mr. Flay]

That's not sanitized, that's... tolerant? Understanding? Patient, maybe (though not infinitely).

Meta is different when you have that high a percentage of newbies.

[Mr. Flay]

RTR's meta is all over the place; the rest of the site is rather more homogeneous.

This is almost certainly a direct consequence of putting 6 newbies in every game. (And not one that should be surprising, or discouraged.)

Agree on both counts.

[Mr. Flay]

also for what it's worth, i think opens, mini-normals and micros are easier to break into at first. large themes tend to be where a lot of the "cliques" go.

That, and they tend to fill fast as hell. Also also, many LTs have entrance requirements, that keep true-newbies out.

Anyway, we're kinda wandering afield. I do hope when singer gets time she responds to this:

On a side note, the ability to /in twice or even more often into either the SE or IC queue is annoying to people who want to reach the top of the queue. It's silly that Nacho, for instance, is going to reach the top of the IC queue four times before I reach it once. It's not difficult to /in again as soon as you make it into a game and it will keep the wait time much lower than it is now (at least for the IC queue).

I wouldn't mind seeing this addressed in some form actually.

[Mr. Flay]

Not a bad idea.

I disagree with any attempt to increase the number of SEs per game.

[Mr. Flay]

They're sort of three-different queues in the same thread, Venmar. Right now they all fill up pretty evenly/well, but for a while you could have 5/5 Newbies and 2/2 SEs, but 0/2 ICs. Or 2 ICs and 2 SEs, but only 2/5 Newbies.

Because the game always needs/wants the same ratio, the slowest part of the 'experience' queue determines when a game fills.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not sure he was saying he played in 6 NGs before moving to the rest of the site, just that he's played 6 total?

[Mr. Flay]

Seems a fair summation.

[Mr. Flay]

Are you saying make Vengeful an

option

in the Newbie Setup rotation, or the only game in town?

[Mr. Flay]

Christ, this argument again?

I've only recently seen 3 week deadlines in newbie games. And that's cause they're compulsory.

This is incorrect, actually. VRK just requires that Days be

no longer than

three weeks; I asked.

[Mr. Flay]

Yes, and? singer got shoved into the job with little training. I doubt she has thought much about that particular rule.

Speaking of which, someone should compile a list of 'suggestions' from this thread for her to consider. I can't imagine she'll have time to read all 20 pages right away.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, the point is that if that is what the listmod tells me to do, I don't contradict her directions. Whether or not she was "shoved into the job with little training" and whether those directions should or should not be followed is obviously not for me to decide, thus why I'm bringing it up as a rule she

did

enforce when asked about it.

I know, and I'm speaking from my alabaster throne as Newbie List Mod Emeritus. I think

if

when she DOES think about it, she'll make the sensible choice.

[Mr. Flay]

Bumping this again.

I checked the Road to Rome again, and saw that--as far as I can tell--the 2of4 setup is

still

the only one being run, which means that changes have

still

not been made.
We've been talking about this for months. Surely there has to have been some progress, so I was wondering if I could get a status update on what's being done.

singer needs to reply/decide. She's been very busy, but I'll poke her again.

[Mr. Flay]

There will be no way to narrow down precisely which setup you're in by any single flip, or for a scumteam to know precisely which setup they're in based on their roles.

Yay!

I like the overall progression here; no concrete suggestions on the currently list, though it can be tweaked at will.

Any thoughts on the announce-one-game-at-a-time-rather-than-bundling problem? That seems like it could be fixed instantly, to great benefit.Also if she'd be willing to sign off on the '3-week deadlines are NOT mandatory' problem.

[Mr. Flay]

Any thoughts on the announce-one-game-at-a-time-rather-than-bundling problem? That seems like it could be fixed instantly, to great benefit.Also if she'd be willing to sign off on the '3-week deadlines are NOT mandatory' problem.

She's kinda started doing this sometimes already.

Oh good - I've been gone for a week, just catching up.

[Mr. Flay]

If you try to do the set-theory version, people are just going to work out (sometimes badly) and post the list version ANYWAY. You're saving precious little, unless you want a 'simple' way to notate it. But still, this isn't about the format of the description, but the setups contained therein. The List Mod is just going to send "This is your game's setup:" to the Game Mod anyway.,

[Mr. Flay]

Game's going pretty badly for scum anyway if they can't stop their roleblocker from getting lynched on D1.

Exactly.

Nice work quadz.

[Mr. Flay]

Opening something like the marathon forum to test the setup might now be such a bad idea? (esp to see how easily the random setup can be guessed, which might actually cause a big problem in the newbie games?)

This might not be a bad idea.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not sure what you're apologizing for, that was a very constructive post. And welcome back!

[Mr. Flay]

It also helps avoid IC burnout and breaking strategies. With so many Newbie Games played at a time, the setup has to keep some mystery alive.

[Mr. Flay]

Welcome to page...what was that, 15? Problem is that places a bunch of responsibility on the List Mod to craft balanced setups.

We then moved to "well name these balanced setups and let the LM pick", which migrated to the grid.

[Mr. Flay]

+1 Matrix6

[Mr. Flay]

*\o/*

[Mr. Flay]

I don't see an elaboration on this at first glance: I assume the Bulletproof passive is not Roleblockable, but that should probably be specified one way or the other.

:edit: Nevermind, talked to quadz, edited into wiki.

[Mr. Flay]

True, but back in the day we had a Doctor self-protect go through in a Newbie Game, because we didn't think we had to specify...

[Mr. Flay]

Well what we'd really like is to get back to two ICs per game, but there's a shortage, and has been for a long time. So upping the requirements slightly for SEs seems like a decent compromise.

Also I don't know if you've looked at the SE list lately, but it's a million miles long. Not much risk of running out soon, and if we do, going back to 6:2:1 is easy.

[Mr. Flay]

It's the politics problem. Many people who are perfectly well-qualified to IC are not signing up, so much of the pool is mediocre. Much of it is good too, of course, but many people don't do it for silly "not good enough" reasons when they would do just fine playing as they normally do, and doing a more extensive past-mortem. (me, I don't do it right now for time restrictions, I can't keep up with even one game at a time some weeks)

[Mr. Flay]

I agree with letting currently-signed-up SEs continue foss for one more game even if they don't meet the new requirements, though I think this entire thing is making a mountain out of a molehill. Semi-Experienced was originally created just to have

some

sort of name for those who were neither Newbies nor ICs. I worry that we've inadvertently created a class of players who think they need permission to move on. And move on they should...

Coug: how did you get that out of what I wrote? Any competent player with a modicum of patience should be able to IC.

[Mr. Flay]

If you get your RB lynched early, you're already probably fucked. Only way it really goes south is for LYLO to be JK-BP-M, at which point...uhh, gg?

[Mr. Flay]

*shrug* There's a difference between ideal play and requirements for play. The requirements are to not flake, not be a dick, and play to win. Perhaps to explain terminology, but really you can aim somebody at the glossary for that.

[Mr. Flay]

Must be a very different world these days, then. Back when I had time to IC often the only difference was the "why are you still alive?" BoP, which I get anyway, so...