Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

I tried my hand at the matrix format. Rows and columns:

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town Nonconsecutive Commuter	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

There's a little less power generally which is good and we avoid the strongman. RB issues still exist (both in RB vs. JK and RBlynch being really bad for the scum in the Cop-Doc set-up) but are lessened (you don't need to decide on an order-based resolotion or NAT (what if the jailkeeper targets the roleblocker who targets someone else?) and the disastrous RBlynch only occurs in one of the two set-up). The commuter is admittedly a little inelegant.

The tracker/doc vs goons setup is prob somewhat overpowered to the town, and even if the tracker tracks a doc to a nightkill he knows that it's a doc (since commuter is self-targetting?) and just helps to confirm the doc?

Edit: Wait I don't even think I might be doing the square thing right so ignore this if I'm doing it wrong

[The Baltimore Sun]

I think the strongman is a much better role for newbies than a commuter

Why? (Ignoring the fact it's personal preference)

I kinda like both matrix set-ups tbh.

[quadz08]

I just find strongman less complicated and more useful for understanding the game. But I"m pretty sure that's just because of how my brain works. *shrug*

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

The tracker/doc vs goons setup is prob somewhat overpowered to the town, and even if the tracker tracks a doc to a nightkill he knows that it's a doc (since commuter is self-targetting?) and just helps to confirm the doc?

You can't track a Commuter. Tracker tracking a doc confirms the doc generally, yes, and Doc-Tracker is admittedly a tad town-sided.

[Phoenicks]

I think the current proposed setup is Quilford's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies as necessary for 2:7.

I think that 5 town PRs and 2 Mafia PRs is too many to introduce in a game. Even though the mafia will always know 5-6 setups that aren't in play, most newbies will have to learn and account for all the PRs. They're not stupid, but this can fog focus on the normal mechanics of the game. I'd eliminate:

Roleblocker: If Roleblocker hits killing scum, does he stop a kill? If he does, then there are too many ways to stop a kill (every setup but 2 Goons and a Cop has protection). If not, then he's more likely to hurt town. (In this matrix, he'd be pro-town to hit the rolecop or the strongman if that strongman is targeting the JK's protection -- do we need the complexity?) Roleblocker could work, but I think it's too much in this matrix.

Tracker: It's not an intuitive role like Cop or Doctor. Except for setups with a Strongman, the mafia need to worry about tracker targeting them. None of the tracker's results instantly tell him anything (visit dead body and you're scum/roleblocker; visit living body and you're scum/doctor/roleblocker, visit no one and you're scum/VT), so the role becomes most important in narrow circumstances, where he can be game-deciding. Too much.

1-shot Strongman: The role itself isn't too complex, but if it's used to balance Doc/Cop and JK/RB then those games can become town autowin very quickly if he's lynched Day 1. There can be some questionable nightactions -- Jailkeeper targets Strongman, Roleblocker blocks the kill: is the 1-shot used up? There are better ways to solve Follow the Cop (Jailkeeper and Cop?). Too many rulings have to be made for the specifics.

Half of this matrix's setups use those roles.

I tried my hand at the matrix format. Rows and columns:

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town Nonconsecutive Commuter	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

There's a little less power generally which is good and we avoid the strongman. RB issues still exist (both in RB vs. JK and RBlynch being really bad for the scum in the Cop-Doc set-up) but are lessened (you don't need to decide on an order-based resolotion or NAT (what if the jailkeeper targets the roleblocker who targets someone else?) and the disastrous RBlynch only occurs in one of the two set-up). The commuter is admittedly a little inelegant.

I just find strongman less complicated and more useful for understanding the game. But I"m pretty sure that's just because of how my brain works. *shrug*

What results does Cop get if he hits Commuter mid-commute? What happes if the Commuter is Roleblocked?

Aside from the Commuter (I think it's too complicated), I think this matrix works a little better.

I made some quick ones with these guidelines: No more than 5 PRs total, no game should have 2 ways to stop a kill, better to have too few nightactions than not enough:

Vanila Townie	Mafia Rolecop	Vanilla Townie
Mafia Roleblocker	Cop	Doctor
Named Townie	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon

Named Townie	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie
Cop	Jailkeeper	Roleblocker
Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie	Named Townie

Vanilla Townie	Cop	Godfather
Mafia Goon	Miller	Cop
Doctor	Mafia Goon	Vanilla Townie

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Commuters are untargettable when commuting. That would mean a cop would get the same result as if he were blocked if there were any cop-commuter set-ups, which there aren't.

Each of your matrices has at least 3 scum-sided set-ups and generally wildly varying balance. I don't think you want a Miller in an Open either.

[Phoenicks]

My mistake, I included diagonals.

Which setups do you mean?

[Cheery Dog]

The only ones I'd consider as balanced in those takes by phoenicks are the middle routes/columns of the first two.

Doctor as the only town power role is currently an option in the current newbie set - town has only managed to win 25% of those games, the named townie would be even worse as their isn't even a chance of a kill being stopped.

The cop with miler or godfather doesn't have enough power to justify the positives for scum from having the lying alignment roles.

Yes they are good for people who just want to scumhunt without doing anything with power roles, but most newboes just aren't that good.

[Quilford]

Clearly the solution to the alleged problem that a scum lynch is disastrous when a Town Roleblocker is still alive is to limit the Roleblocker's shots.

[Phoenicks]

I wasn't thinking of mountainous as scum-sided, but for newbies, point taken.

For comparison's sake, I wanted to get 2of4 put in matrix format, and I got this:

Rolecop	Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie
Vanilla Townie	Vanilla Townie	Rolecop	Doc
Vanilla Townie	Cop	Doc	Rolecop
Cop	Rolecop	Jailkeeper	BLANK

Don't use the row or column with the Blank (6 setups). Add 1 Mafia Goon and 4 VTs.

If anyone can get a simpler matrix, please, fix it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Oh, I guess you could just replace the Commuter with a 1-shot BP. Not sure why I didn't think of that before.

[quadz08]

That's probably much better, CES.

CES':

Town Jailkeeper	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Town 1-shot BP	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

Quil's:

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

None of Phoenicks' presented matrices seem feasible for balance reasons. (Plus, miller bad in newbies.)

I actually do like using a BP town rather than a strongman mafia; it's simpler, and BP is already a normal role modifier, so we don't have to worry about that hullabaloo.

[Phoenicks]

Why are millers bad for newbie setups?

[quadz08]

Millers are considered semi-bastard by a lot of players. Putting them in newbie games isn't a good idea.

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Eh, I'm not sure about this, but would switching that top right goon to a moderate to weak PR (like a mafia rolecop?) be better?

Edit: In CES' setup.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Helps the column, hurts the row. And I prefer having a Goon in multiple set-ups informationwise.

Millers are considered semi-bastard by a lot of players. Putting them in newbie games isn't a good idea.

Millers aren't semi-bastard. You just claim it D1. That part is fairly awkward in a Newbie and Millers in Opens work even less like they're supposed to.

[Phoenicks]

If not every setup has a miller, it's a valid scumclaim.

[zoraster]

i don't think a newbie setup where the correct play is to do something IMMEDIATELY in the game is really a great idea.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If not every setup has a miller, it's a valid scumclaim.

But it's never just going to be "Is this dude town?". In your set-up specifically, Miller claims only make sense if the Mafia have a Godfather, in which case either the Goon claims Miller, Town Cop is neutered but Town gets the Goon for free if they lynch the GF OR GF claims Miller and can be found out through investigation - weird stuff.

[Human Destroyer]

A couple of us on another site playtested CES's matrix in real time mafia cause we were bored. Albeit, we tested with relatively experienced players, but still. (I generated BP/JK/Maf RB)

Most of them thought it was townsided, mostly owing to the nature of being able to better predict what other PR is in the game if you are a town PR. They found it enjoyable though.

[CityElectric]

Would it be useful to do something like that for every possible setup in the table we end up choosing (provided that we decide to change the setup to one of the tables)? You know, set up a few games somewhere, have Marathon-like deadlines and just play them through to see whether anything weird shows up? (Just thinking out loud)

EDIT: the only problem I see with this is that after doing 4-5 test runs the setup becomes a bit predictable... Hmm...

[Human Destroyer]

Well, no, you could still randomize it every time to get a good feel of it's balance. There doesn't need to be a perfect amount of each setup.

[zoraster]

i have to say, i still prefer Quil's, albeit with no diagonals. I think either works though. Townsided is probably a good thing.

[CityElectric]

No, I was thinking about running every setup just once, otherwise the test period would be a bit dragged out... (I mean, you never know what random numbers do...)

[Ser Arthur Dayne]

Opening something like the marathon forum to test the setup might now be such a bad idea? (esp to see how easily the random setup can be guessed, which might actually cause a big problem in the newbie games?)