Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[SleepyKrew]

I think it would be fine if Doc/Townie was dropped and the Cop in Cop/Doc was Macho.

[StrangerCoug]

random.org will give you whatever you want.

You can reload your list and randomize again (Back button avoids the page showing the number of times reloaded).

With a table system of X number of setups, it is trivial to shoot the mod "Run setup A" when they are given the game assignment.

I understand there is no way to completely eliminate the problem of mods gaming the system, but newbie games have an experience requirement. If all you're going to do is assign things the way you want them, you shouldn't be allowed to run

ANY

type of Mafia game. (Maybe bastard mod games, but that's not what we're talking about here.)

[quadz08]

Flay isn't implying that newbie mods aren't randomizing their setups, he's saying that the data is proving that some mods aren't randomizing. (Or we're breaking laws of nature.) You can't really argue and say "don't punish us for something we aren't doing" when people are clearly doing it. *shrug*

[mastin2]

Funny story:

I remember before I left on my vacation, we were actively discussion how to incorporate new setups, in like three different threads, since we all agreed there was a problem, in
-Randomization
-Balance
-Player interest.

...And I thought that a plan was already under way and approved for there to be variety in the games.

...So when I came back and checked the Newbie Games, I was quite shocked to see that every single game being run was

still

2of4, a game which I as an experienced player do not enjoy playing.

And honestly, those issues will always be there unless we get more than just one or two or three setups. We need something like five or six, be it semi-open or full-open; it doesn't matter, but one or two setups will become just as boring and tedious as any other one or two setups.

For the record, I do like the 2of3 setup proposed, but I think we need more than that.

Significantly

more.

[StrangerCoug]

Flay isn't implying that newbie mods aren't randomizing their setups, he's saying that the data is proving that some mods aren't randomizing. (Or we're breaking laws of nature.) You can't really argue and say "don't punish us for something we aren't doing" when people are clearly doing it. *shrug*

But is

EVERY

newbie mod breaking the rules? No. It would probably be right to argue that

MOST

aren't. We do not need to implement a system based on paranoia.

I mean, I'm all for the "variety is the spice of life" camp, but that is different from the "newbie mods cannot be trusted to randomize a setup" camp.

[gorckat]

If all you're going to do is assign things the way you want them, you shouldn't be allowed to run ANY type of Mafia game.

Just want to make sure we aren't talking sideways to each other: Do you mean roles -> players or roles -> game?

Having never been a ListMod, I'll make these assumptions:

1) The LM keeps a list of Game #, mod assigned and players assigned
2) This list could be a spreadsheet
3) It is trivial to add an extra column to record setup number
4) Random.org is a good randomizer

Assuming those 4 points, and a hypothetical Newbie setup with 12 possibilites, this is a list of the next 40 games to be run. The LM c/p it into that new column next to the Mod name and we don't ever debate setup assignment again as a Mod can be reviewed at any point.

[quadz08]

Hi!

I am going to pop in here and speak sort-of-unofficially on behalf of Singer since the internet at our new house

still

isn't set up (grumbletimewarnergrumble).

There was a plan in place that she had discussed with me to switch the queue over to the varied setups, as discussed in the past. Then August happened, and changes to the newbie queue just didn't seem that important anymore, and fell off of her radar. I'd guess that once the house move-in is all finished and done with and we've settled in more completely, that things like fixing the newbie setup will become more of a priority again.

Again, unofficial statements from husband-of-listmod, but that's my thoughts on the subject.

P-EDIT: SC, why does it matter if singer just does the randomization for you anyway? You know that you aren't doing it, and good for you. Now you don't have to worry about it; it's not like it actually changes anything for you anyway.

[StrangerCoug]

If all you're going to do is assign things the way you want them, you shouldn't be allowed to run ANY type of Mafia game.

Just want to make sure we aren't talking sideways to each other: Do you mean roles -> players or roles -> game?

Both, really, but I think that roles —> game is the main concern.

P-EDIT: SC, why does it matter if singer just does the randomization for you anyway? You know that you aren't doing it, and good for you. Now you don't have to worry about it; it's not like it actually changes anything for you anyway.

I trust singersigner and all, and my modding history shows that I don't think fully open setups are the devil, but that's what we're proposing turning the newbie setup into in effect.

[SleepyKrew]

I don't think the proposal is that singer makes it public, just that she randomly chooses the setup and passes it on to the mod?

[StrangerCoug]

Where did I say anything about making the actual setup public? I don't want the list mod to be randomizing things for me—it is an unfair punishment to those newbie mods who have followed the rules about doing the first thing random.org gives them, and I feel it turns semi-open setups into open setups designed to

LOOK

like semi-opens, hence the "in effect" part of my post.

[quadz08]

I really don't see why it matters. Literally all it does is change it so that Singer is going to random.org instead of you.

[SleepyKrew]

But it's still completely semi-open to the players...

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But is EVERY newbie mod breaking the rules? No. It would probably be right to argue that MOST aren't. We do not need to implement a system based on paranoia.

If it's happening often enough that it's showing up in the data, it's a problem and it needs to be addressed.

[StrangerCoug]

And I proposed what we should do about it.

[SleepyKrew]

I don't get why you're making such a big deal out of this. Like, I literally cannot find anything wrong with having singer randomize for you.

[zoraster]

I kind of feel a bit insulted by Mr. Flay's implication that mods cannot be expected to actually randomize what roles are in a semi-open. By modding a semi-open, you agree to run whatever random.org gives you. If we're

THAT

concerned about whether or not assignments are random, have singersigner set up a reasonably foolproof system that proves the setup is randomly generated. Something like this:

1. First-time newbie mods set up a system of how they are going to determine what roles in the game—say, if we keep 2of4, the terms "cop", "doc", "JK", and "VT" go in the list randomizer and we pick the top two that come up.
   
2. singersigner approves the method.
   
3. We give her a screenshot of the result with a timestamp from
   AFTER
   her approval.
   
4. Once that's taken care of, we agree on how player assignments will work. I write my role PMs so that the names are replaced with the placeholders PLAYER_01, PLAYER_02, PLAYER_03, and so on as necessary.
   
5. Again, give her a screenshot of the random.org assignments from after she approved the system.

It's not perfect—someone who doesn't like the role/player assignments can just rerun the generator, for example—but I am against newbie games going to fully open setups just because some mods aren't playing by the rules.

As for ideas for a new newbie setup, I would be the wrong person to ask for a hard setup, but in my opinion newbie games suffer if they're needlessly complex. No setups that take longer than two or three sentences to explain should be allowed, and any permitted deviations from the basic investigative/protective/blocking roles should be allowed. (My main beef against a vigilante being allowed in a newbie stems more from the small game size than the likelihood that it'll be given to an inexperienced player.)

why? Why not just have singer assign them? This only increases the work. Here's how easy it is for her:

Have singer go to random.org. Generate 100 integers for the next 100 games. She has this list. When she PMs a mod to tell them its their turn to sign up, she tells them which setup to do. She doesn't even have to go to random.org again to do this.

[StrangerCoug]

I hate people doing things I'm capable of doing myself for me. It comes off like they think I do not have the mental capacity to do it.

[zoraster]

It isn't that they're doing it to you in particular. They're doing it for us as a whole because we as a whole benefit from it.

We don't let people who have been here two weeks moderate large themes not because each individual one is incapable of doing so but because as a whole it's a bad idea.

And in this case you literally gain nothing doing it yourself if you're doing it honestly.

[StrangerCoug]

*sigh*

Somebody come up with something that makes it more of the list mod making sure it's random and less of the list mod distrusting newbie mods from randomizing stuff themselves. As I said, if you can't randomize a setup, you should not be allowed to run any setup in any queue whatever.

[gorckat]

Short of the list mod being in the same place as the mod, I don't think there is a way to be certain.

[zoraster]

Well, we don't have the luxury of knowing who's doing it non-randomly, just that it's probably happening. As such, there's no way to tell those people they can't mod. As a result, our best solution is simply to have the listmod do it.

Here's the thing: mods DO NOT have the discretion at the moment. The only way they have any sort of discretion is if they're cheating. Period. So nothing is being taken away from them other than the ability to click on random.org.

I think mods should welcome it. It'll reassure players that there's nothing funky going on with the setups.

[StrangerCoug]

How about we work on a compromise? How well do open setups adapt to newbie games?

[zoraster]

why should they? If semi-open as we do now is the best solution, there is no reason to use an open game when there is such a simple solution of having the listmod do it. If an open setup is BETTER, that's fine, but not using one just because you don't want a listmod telling you which randomly generated setup to use would be a terrible decision.

EDIT: To clarify: I'm not opposed to using an open setup at all. That'd at least be more similar to some games we run now outside of newbies (the percent of games that are semi-open in the style we use for newbies is negligible). I just don't think we should decide to do so because of an irrational desire not to have any listmod control.

If we can find a balanced open setup that is balanced time after time after time even without doubt about claims, etc. then sure, I'd be good with that.

[StrangerCoug]

The problem is not that I don't trust the list mod to do a randomized setup. List mods are merit-based positions and we expect a lot of them. singersigner is meeting my expectations of a list mod; the newbie queue is running as smoothly as she can help it and I have not seen her cause trouble on the site. The problem here is that I see the situation as "a few newbie mods here and there haven't been randomizing their setups like they should have, so let's distrust everybody and randomize the setup ourselves." But why go there? The distrust is unwarranted, and it doesn't solve supposedly-random-but-really-not issues outside of the newbie queue.

[RichardGHP]

I can definitely see where StrangerCoug is coming from. In

principle

, I am against List Mod-assigned setups for the same reason—we are providing a public service by modding and we should be able to expect a degree of trust from the community, players and officials alike.

However, I suspect that there is more non-random generation going on than we would like to believe. Whereas a mod has a motivation to choose their favourite setup, the List Mod has no such motivation. So in

practice

, I support us being given the setup by the List Mod.