/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Faraday]

Day 3, Votecount 3

Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Tammy, Llamarble

Benmage (3) - Shadoweh, OhGodMyLife, Nachomamma8

OhGodMyLife (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez

Not voting (4) :

Benmage, Deasvail, Empire, Tierce

• With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 7th of April at 3:59am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-04-06 23:59:59)
  
• Benmage is V/la

[Llamarble]

That's actually pretty much exactly what BoP is. I also don't really see how you can go for that type of argument in the same game that you're voting me on PoE grounds on D3 (especially if N/benmage turn out to be scum).

Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

Why?

Well when I say BoP, I am more talking of usefulness below expectations.
If N does turn out to be scum, then the late day one situation was scumlynch about to beat townlynch and I find it hard to believe a scum wouldn't have helped tip the balance the other way; Nacho is best fit for that scum.
Obviously rereads will happen with new info etc, but for 'does N make sense on a team' purposes Nacho being a scum possibility makes N a more viable scum possibility.

Who do you think the scumteam are?

[Tammy]

Prod dodging. I will try to get to this game tonight but am not promising anything.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

BoP is about more than voting the bad peoples.

Then keep going.

[Empire]

Prod dodge right now. Tierce, I'll get to the OGML stuff tomorrow night or Wednesday but my underlings in the law review just turned in their assignment so this week is going to be busier than normal for me. But yeah, I know he's a very tunnely player regardless of alignment from my experience with him a long time ago so I didn't really think he had some result or whatever.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Well when I say BoP, I am more talking of usefulness below expectations.

Personally, I consider that to be Vi's fault.

If N does turn out to be scum, then the late day one situation was scumlynch about to beat townlynch and I find it hard to believe a scum wouldn't have helped tip the balance the other way; Nacho is best fit for that scum.
Obviously rereads will happen with new info etc, but for 'does N make sense on a team' purposes Nacho being a scum possibility makes N a more viable scum possibility.

Nacho the turbobusser?

[DeasVail]

Benmage:

-I found his attack on Tierce fairly town/genuine.
-Apart from that there's nothing much. The hammer doesn't mean much to me considering it's Benmage. I'll probably read over what others have said.

CES:

-539 is a townish post.
-I liked his attack on Vi, but I guess it's not that unlikely to come from him as scum either.

Also, Empire and Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

More later, hopefully tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Llamarble get to keep their spots in the town pile!

Why?

[OhGodMyLife]

All right. First lets go over CTD's contributions, to remind everyone why they should go have a look for themselves at the dead scum's posts. This should help us get to the end goal here of dead Ben (and dead CES), and also dismantle this wagon on me, which I had some choice adjectives for that I'll leave on the cutting room floor today.

Benmage:

I am not currently interested in a Vi wagon though.

Why not?

Short answer: I haven't seen anything from him that indicates scum to me. This comment was mostly intended to get you and CES to do something more productive with your votes.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but once again, this is the one and only time that CTD interacts with Ben. What is it that scum like to do? Oh right, pretend their partners don't exist while they go about their evil little plots to get some townies lynched. Now that we've covered that basic fact, why don't we look at CTD's positions on my predecessor, N?

..Gods, I don't really want to quote everything CTD had to say about N. Go read it. Look at the votecounts. CTD got on that N wagon and rode it all the way to the end of the day. He was dogged. He really wanted N lynched. He was positioning himself to continue trying to lynch N following the penguin_alien lynch. I'm really looking forward to seeing how CES and Ben try to spin that like it was some kind of a traitor-bus.

Oh, wait... Ben wasn't even trying to pretend like his vote on me was for anything related to thinking I'm scum.

unvote vote OGML

idiocy is a plague best dealt with early.

Where in that post does it suggest idiocy alone is a scumtell?

Where did I claim to think you're scum?

You're just a weak link, and weak links are best dealt with early on. And you could very easily flip scum.

@all Why isn't OGML on the chopping block?

Look at his iso... C'mon... you wanna rush a lynch, at least make on an undesirable.

But everyone just wants to handwave all of this away as "Ben being Ben?" Give me a break.

And lets go back a little further, to day one, when once again Ben gets on a lynch without even pretending like he thinks it will flip scum:

unvote vote N

Maybe we can lynch scum Vi tomorrow?

Holy wall surge. I won't be reading up here till night. Has N really not claimed yet? ZzzZzzzz

Penguin?

unvote vote Penguin

Well we need a lynch.

And plus we can use this mislynch against Vi.

It's like he's giving us a play by play of his actual scum plan (surprise surprise Vi flipped town) and just laughing all the way to the bank. And just as a reminder, here's Ben's explicit take on p_a:

Hey Benvolio, what's your take on pengualien?

Town.

And his explicit defense of CES:

What's the likelihood of Vi getting lynched today?

Better then CES... plus why would we mislynch town over obvscum?

CTD's chainsaw defense of CES:

Johhog's CES vote is lazy and scummy. Instead of commenting on anything relevant going on or using his vote in a productive manner, he parks it on a player that has virtually no chance of getting wagoned based on his weak meta suspicion. Would vote.

Another Ben defense of CES:

The Vi wagon is meh. I think it looks like normal Vi. I prefer this one.

VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Playing very differently from Team Mafia, where he was town.

Team Mafia is a bad example of town CES.

Honestly, does anyone want to read anymore of this, or can we all finally agree that Ben and CES both need to be marked for death?

[Zachrulez]

What kept you from posting all of that a week or more ago?

[Zachrulez]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

I do remember fighting with Benmage in white flag over my incorrect meta read of him there and if I'm remembering correctly he stated pretty strongly that he hated lurking as scum.

On the other hand, I do remember him bigging up his scum game in white flag, but the important part here is if that trait is absent in his scum games and present in his town ones. (In general I mean.)

[OhGodMyLife]

What kept you from posting all of that a week or more ago?

Crippling procrastination and general laziness

[Nachomamma8]

I do remember fighting with Benmage in white flag over my incorrect meta read of him there and if I'm remembering correctly he stated pretty strongly that he hated lurking as scum.

On the other hand, I do remember him bigging up his scum game in white flag, but the important part here is if that trait is absent in his scum games and present in his town ones. (In general I mean.)

I'm going to look at it being present in his town games. But I definitely don't think this is his typical scum game we're seeing at the moment.

[Llamarble]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p4815952]
Nacho the turbobusser?

Turbobusser of whom?

[Llamarble]

I'm going to look at it being present in his town games. But I definitely don't think this is his typical scum game we're seeing at the moment.

This is a true statement (and the main reason he isn't already dead), but if he had RL interference like he said he did and found that caused him to look town a la many lazy town games, I can see him running with it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

What is it that scum like to do? Oh right, pretend their partners don't exist while they go about their evil little plots to get some townies lynched.

What kind of circumstances is it then, you think, that motivates scum to defend their partners?

[Llamarble]

Day 1, Votecount 26

penguin_alien (4) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Vi

Vi (2) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (4) - WickedestJr, N, Nachomamma8, Johhog

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

If CTD did not know who his buddies were, the N wagon was very town or the Empire/Tierce/Tammy is bad.

Day 1, Votecount 31 aka End of Day Votecount

penguin_alien (9) - Deasvail, Konowa, Shadoweh, Llamarble, Wickedestjr, Nachomamma8, Vi, Benmage, Johhog

N (6) - Tierce, CrashTextDummie, Empire, penguin_alien, Tammy, Cogito Ergo Sum
CrashTextDummie (1) - N

Not voting (0) :

NO ONE

Nacho, Wjr, Benmage help PA wagon surpass N wagon.

Day 2, Votecount 15

Vi (1) - Tammy
Untrod Tripod (1) - Deasvail

Shadoweh (6) - Tierce, Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi, Llamarble, Untrod Tripod, Empire

Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage

Not voting (1) :

Zachrulez

Shadoweh, CES, or both are scum unless TETbad or scum are furiously avoiding causing anything to happen.

Day 2, Votecount 16

Untrod Tripod (4) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce

Shadoweh (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Vi

Benmage (4) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh, Llamarble

OhGodMyLife (1) - Benmage
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

Day 2, Votecount 18

Untrod Tripod (7) - Deasvail, Tammy, Zachrulez, Tierce, Vi, Llamarble, Benmage

Shadoweh (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Benmage (3) - Nachomamma8, OhGodMyLife, Shadoweh
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Untrod Tripod

Not voting (1) :

Empire

DV, Zach, or Benmage.

The TET assumption is pretty helpful, so you TET folks had better be pretty confident about each other. I personally don't see much wrong with y'all.
So this narrows things down to... People not me or TET assuming me and TET town. How wonderful.
I don't really believe in Shadoweh scum though, so voting CES still seems about right.

[Llamarble]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

I believe that if N / OGML is scum then it is less likely the swing was driven by townies.
Even if Nacho is a turbobusser, it's hard to turn down an opportunity to turn a correct lynch into a mislynch, particularly since it fits with things Nacho said that day.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Just turbobusser in general, 'marble. I don't think Nacho spending effort to save his buddy N makes notably more sense than more straightforward conclusions (i.e. if a bunch of townies showed up to swing the wagon to p_a late, then maybe that swing was driven by townies).

I believe that if N / OGML is scum then it is less likely the swing was driven by townies.
Even if Nacho is a turbobusser, it's hard to turn down an opportunity to turn a correct lynch into a mislynch, particularly since it fits with things Nacho said that day.

You could also see it as an opportunity to bus despite obvious options being available. That's why it's called turbobussing. As for the first thing, sure, that's true in isolation but that shouldn't mean ignoring evidence that that is at least mostly what happened.

[Llamarble]

VOTE: Nacho

Nacho's

always

scum.

ugh you had to ruin such a perfect playerlist

Lack of absolute contribution to the game. N-scum feels fairly detached from the game, while N-Town might be snarky, but is definitely willing to provide reads in a proactive manner and without going with the flow, which is what he's doing.

It's too early for you to be attacking N for playing to his troll scum meta. He does this as town as well; the difference is that he actually steps it the fuck up as town when he gets something he cares about. I seriously doubt that N is going to play in an invitational with a playerlist like this and expect to get away with doing nothing.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

go through the entire thread and make snarky comments to everyone

Also, I get the feeling that if I were CES, I'd be townreading Llamarble right now. Meh.

?

He kinda is trying to get away with doing nothing so far though.

So far, sure. But a casual start is a casual start; it's not worth the wagon he currently has on him.

My impression of N is different? I remember in Black Flag he was outing reads and stuff but mostly just attacking easy targets, was rather lurkerish, and had a hard time dealing with the stronger players in the room (for example, he spent most of the game tunneling/getting into a huge fight with JesseSheffield) so I think it would make sense for Nscum to have a hard time producing content with this strong of a roster.

Exactly. How is that anything like the N we're seeing here? He's taunting Tierce, flagrantly dismissing major wagons, not tunneling at all.....

a useless Nachovote

scumbuddies

help me bus my partner then

oh wait nevermind

Vi is not being fluffy enough. Benvolio is a terrible pick for Benmage. Plus, that means he survives, and

yuck

.

I was about to ask a cool question, then the votecount turned it into a boring question. So you get another boringish question as I ignore Messieurs Quote Stripes CrashTextMamma8. Tammy, the hot date with Big Blue should be over by now--thoughts on the wagons?

why do you ignore me?

Because you're all NachoofIllusion and it's boring and I'm V/LA in Paris. Is there anything I should be looking at, abridged version? I thought you were pretty studiously ignoring my presence in the game and was having no trouble returning the favor, at least for Today.

I was hoping you'd glance at what I've said about N so far

Ok, I know this isn't addressed at me but stuff like this is making me twitch to the point where I have to respond here. There are two obvious problems with this: 1) N's apparent is intended to obfuscate not clarify, so the Fate analogy makes no sense here, and 2) it makes zero sense to take up a playstyle change that, for pretty much any roster, is more likely to get you lynched, not less -- so that playstyle shift does not seem genuine to me at all and likely borne out of scum finding it hard to bullshit reads

1) Fate shifted his style to wall of text shit, which he knew people probably wouldn't be able to read thanks to all of his meta being geared around the normal Fate meta, but covered it up by stating that "oh, I'm making myself easier to read!". N stated that he is shifting his style because he gets mislynched a lot and alienates himself early, wants to try something new out. He did not state motivation for why he chose this specific game, only that he wanted to switch up his playstyle. Saying that he is trying something new doesn't have any clear motivations for a town player, and N not bringing up fake town motivations to justify his specific switch tells me that he's not providing that information as an avenue for someone to townread him by (notice that his defense to Tierce's accusation is "you don't know my meta" as opposed to using the playstyle shift as a defense), but instead as a bit of a "my play probably won't fit into either meta later".

2) A playstyle change that makes you more likely to get lynched is a shitty playstyle change for town and scum, yeah. I think that it's within his ability as scum to fake

anything

, and what you're seeing here is not N-scum flailing in a desperate attempt to create something because he's that horrible as scum. In fact, I'm fairly confident that most players here, the very newest newbies included, can create something along the lines of actual reasoning, so "he can't think of anything to bring up, but he can think to pretend to be making a playstyle shift which can cover up for his inability to make up reasoning completely!" is a shit attack that you definitely shouldn't be making at this point.

He also committed one of my favorite scum tells, in as much as I believe in scum tells, in Post 407. I did have this happen to me once.

>.>
It wasn't a wall of reads that N lost; it was a wall of snark, spurred by Shadoweh and me telling him to post one. There's a very big difference in between walls of reads and walls of snark.

My knee jerk reaction was to talk to you on aim about how ridiculous it was that he thinks you're scum. It just really speaks to the fact that I can't follow N's thought process at all. But, it's probably because it's just not a town thought process.

Or probably because you know Empire well enough to know how town he looks right now, while N really doesn't know him as well so the jump on his wagon without prior reasoning and pushing on it without the genuineness of Tierce instead looks like scum bulldogging?

Ok, I'm as updated as I can be with my reads and still support a Penguin lynch.

Could we get something more than this?

Oh and for my fellow tinfoil theorists out there, it's very likely that N and penguin are scum together (see: penguin's abrupt 180 stance on N, N's awkward reaction to her vote, and his seemingly willful refusal to give a read on her despite pointing out that her vote was bad).

Then you should have no problem reading penguin, correct?

...N explicitly says he's attempting to play differently than his past style, and your conclusion is that he's playing like he did in the past? And the "not saying why" is really shady.

Many people have said this before. How is someone calling him town the first time you pick up on this?

The best part is that he apparently wants to compare an Empire Town game to the current one when there are LOTS of finished Empire Town games, in hydras or alone (recent ones, too!), but no, this ongoing is too precious. And I'm shutting up at this point because modkills are bad things.

there is an obvious reason for this
a very obvious reason

Vote: penguin_alien

Once the remnants of the CTD wagon move over, things should be 8 and 8 with Benmage holding the hammer, and I'd be pretty happy with that.

Deas, what's been going on with you lately?

First of all, some of the paranoid bits against Benmage being more "protown" as scum is stupid and bullshit, but I like his response. He played around a bit promoting paranoia of his amazing scum game, but took careful means to shut down that angle and pointed out that he could roll as town just like he could roll as scum. The response to Vi avoiding his reach-out in post in #186 is genuine as hell and pretty would be my response to something like that happening, so that's a strong point for Benmage being town. He's also gone hard after not-easy targets (Empire early, Vi, Tierce), which, considering the wagon setup right now, reassures me a bit although scumBenmage could probably get away with attacking those targets in a way that no one else could.

CES seems fine so far although the penguin-N-Vi scumteam doesn't really feel like something that's anywhere close to valid to me, but that's fine for now. The exchanges with Vi (with Vi's response being "oh, CES isn't trolling right now!") feel doubleplusgood to me, so he's a townread for me at the moment.

I had an earlier townread on penguin_alien, but it's not really holding up now. I don't really like how she pushed a scumread on N for claiming to change up his style and not even noticing that no, he wasn't really succumbing to people's demand, and no, he wasn't even being a little bit reasonable. And if we want to talk about "having trouble faking reasons" meta, penguin's fitting pretty fucking cleanly into that sort of meta. She's usually very thorough as both alignments and ends up posting walls like candy and very rarely succumbs to non-walls, but her latest posting amounts to nothing more than "hi, let's lynch N!". It doesn't feel like she's adding anything new to the thread, and her tendency as scum to attack easy targets aligns with her not finding much to attack here. There's also the problem of her finding N's scum read on me serious, considering the reasoning he's given so far is "Nacho is

always

scum", which seems obviously incorrect to me and came before #504. So, she's actually a better lynch than I thought she was!

This is not me just going in :justice: mode about it, it's that his play fits much more scum being bitter at drawing scum with this playerlist

See, I don't really think that N would be bitter to draw scum at this playerlist; I think he would view it as a change to improve. Look at his commentary on Black Flag Nightless in his Wiki.

He's yet to answer any kind of questions regarding reasoning for his reads, and what he has on Empire is "he's just posting one-liners"

Last time I saw N making an inaccurate meta read, he was reading me as scum in a newbie game for posting too much, which was horribly, horribly wrong and easy to refute. I don't think N would push an inaccurate meta read as scum, but I do think N would push something like this as town.

I think your N townread is naive. I urge you to read NY 160 - Regfan and I misread N hard there because we applied way too low of a standard for him so a lot of the fake noob tells like him asking what an encryptor was and the bare minimum effort he gave seemed obvtown. He's doing a lot of the same shit here and he's being given way too much of a free pass for it. I've read games where he's town and he's frankly capable of far more proactive scumhunting than he has been in here and his scum games. The playstyle shift doesn't seem like a genuine excuse for me because, well, he's not really been doing a great job of it -- I mean, the guy literally refused to claim at L-1 simply to spite another player.

I've read that game and am looking at it again right now, but I see a distinct lack of opportunism and a willingness to attack strong players in this N that I don't see in the 160 N. The 160 N was definitely worried about how his posts were perceived (I just want to make it clear that was a prod dodge, that's why the post was short). I think the how many scum question was valid enough, and I don't think that N would do something so flagrantly anti-town as refuse to claim, especially on Day 1. If people were calling him town for being anti-town as fuck, then maybe, but when he's being singled out as scum for this type of behavior I feel like he would do something to counteract it.

This looks pretty scumbuddies to me.
In fact, I should probably just be voting Nacho.

[Llamarble]

So Nacho / CES / maybeN until further notice.

[Llamarble]

Yeah.
Remove Me
Remove TET
Remove Zach because roleinfo
Remove Shadoweh because I'll be impressed if she's scum
Remove Benmage because annoying and bad as his play is I don't see it being scum.
DV is possible and I should recheck.
And we have Nacho / CES / N-OGML

[Tammy]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

Then keep going.[/quote]

But, why wouldn't he as scum pop in to say that either? It's expected of him, it's easy enough to say, why not say it? What about it is distinguishing him as scum?

[Tierce]

This page is pretty. Let me look at this page later tonight and let's see what I come up with.

[Tammy]

The TET assumption is pretty helpful, so you TET folks had better be pretty confident about each other. I personally don't see much wrong with y'all.

Empire has dropped probably at least five Empire town-tells. And he's better at reading Tierce than I am (I used to have a tendency to just scum read Tierce but recently have gotten much better at reading her). My main paranoia at the start of day, as silly as it was, was that they were partners, but their responses to my paranoia was got rid of that.