/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Empire]

EBWOP: "As for

in

activity being a scum tell for me"

[Faraday]

Day 3, Votecount 2

Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Tammy, Zachrulez
Benmage (2) - Shadoweh, OhGodMyLife
OhGodMyLife (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum

Not voting (6) :

Benmage, Deasvail, Empire, Llamarble, Nachomamma8, Tierce

• With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 7th of April at 3:59am GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-04-06 23:59:59)
  
• Benmage is V/la

[Tierce]

Tierce, wanna talk about Benmage? Where is your suspicion of him coming from and have you ever played with scum-Benmage before?

My Benmage suspicion actually has nothing to do with me, and no. Would rather safe musings on this one for a later day.

[Tierce]

EBWOP:

Would rather

save

musings on this one for a later day.

[OhGodMyLife]

Vote: Benmage

No question this is today's lynch.

Why Benmage?

Are you for real? Did you watch anything about how yesterday's lynch went down?

Or, as has been pointed out when other people keep asking me this same question over and over again, you can check out my iso. It's not very long.

Now let's see some more Ben votes, and maybe somebody can do us all a favor and vig CES tonight.

[Tierce]

OGML, you have given no reasoning for a Benmage wagon other than a throwaway comment in Post 1141. Why the surprise when people keep asking that question, when you are clearly capable of much more than what you have put out so far?

[Tierce]

Next question: OGML, how would you define your scum play?

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML, you have given no reasoning for a Benmage wagon other than a throwaway comment in Post 1141. Why the surprise when people keep asking that question, when you are clearly capable of much more than what you have put out so far?

Reasons to suspect Benmage should be self evident. You express suspicion of him yourself. It just feels like people keep tossing this throwaway question at me as an excuse to ignore Ben themselves.

Next question: OGML, how would you define your scum play?

Completely godawful.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That does seem like an accurate assessment.

[Tierce]

OGML, you have given no reasoning for a Benmage wagon other than a throwaway comment in Post 1141. Why the surprise when people keep asking that question, when you are clearly capable of much more than what you have put out so far?

Reasons to suspect Benmage should be self evident. You express suspicion of him yourself. It just feels like people keep tossing this throwaway question at me as an excuse to ignore Ben themselves.

Okay, cards on the table.

I have no freaking idea why you suspect Benmage. I voted him because you were voting him, and at the point I went to look back at your vote it looked like you had

something

on him. By "something", I mean "investigation result".

However, it's no secret that Faraday was interested either in White Flag or a relatively simple Normal. I have no reason to think we are stacked with Town power in this game, and when we have had a 2-shot vanilla cop flip, an extra kill, a roleblocker and a tracker flip, I can no longer think, when I'm actually putting my brain on the game (which I wasn't last Day's end), that you have anything like actual evidence on Benmage. Conclusion: you seem to be full of crap, because "self-evident reasons" never pushed wagons. People are not ignoring Benmage at all, people are trying to get you to explain Benmage to see if they would have interest in voting him, and yet you keep refusing to give a straight answer.


Obviously, Yesterday I had no reason to explain why I thought Benmage might be a good wagon (that you might have a result), because keeping you hidden might yield another result from last Night. Yet you keep going on in the same vein with no further content, and the flips so far indicate you are very unlikely to be an investigative PR, so I have no issue with voicing my mind (since you have spoken after my last response to Empire). You seem completely disinterested in why I suspected Benmage.

Then we have the fact that I know your Town play is far more capable than what you have shown so far. That's why I asked about your scum play; until recently, I thought there was no scum motivation in your play, because frankly you are not putting in any inkling of an effort, and coming in like that to a slot already suspected seems suicidal as scum and was more likely to be Town not giving a damn because they have a PR to back their play--that is, you were trying to look just scummy enough that scum wouldn't be interested in offing you. Your Town play certainly seems smart enough to pull a move like that in the sense of some self-preservation.

However, you then go and say this:

Next question: OGML, how would you define your scum play?

Completely godawful.

And CES agrees with you:

That does seem like an accurate assessment.

In short, I have to go meta you, because the little protective castle I wanted to build around your slot has completely blown away and I want to lynch the hell out of you for greater :justice: and Town wins. You have no excuse to be playing like shit if you are Town, because you don't have crap in terms of useful PR work to present, and you are telling me that your play so far seems to fit in very nicely with your scum play.


Empire?

[Tierce]

Who did Zach replace again? Right Wjr. Oh he's confirmed vanilla. Still seems scummy though.

The specifics of the result also confirm him as town.

How do you know that Vi's role was the same as the vanilla cop in Zach's game? As far as I know, that is not Faraday's view on vanilla cops.

[Tierce]

Never mind that last post, CES. I've reread Post 962.

[Tierce]

One of the issues with OGML is that his games are mostly pretty old. I'd say the most relevant ones are from Micro 53 to American Revolution as Town, and Playground Mafia as scum.

Town games: Micro 53 (this was the game I had as a base for "OGML is far better than this", which I remembered from months ago because I had discussed it with Empire), Author Mafia, American Revolution Mafia, Open 411, Mini 1141, American Gods Mafia

(don't hurt me, Faraday)

Scum games: Playground Mafia

Everything older than this is meta that is 2+ years old. A quick skim of the games above really doesn't incline me to do anything but vote OGML. :/ He was somewhat better in Playground Mafia, but there was still that rapid, pointless tunneling with little to no explanation, which he gives without any trouble in Town games.


Empire, if you could go through those a bit today/tomorrow/whenever, that'd be great. I know you suspect OGML, but I was trying to ignore that read because of what I posted above (and wanted to swat you when you kept pushing him), but yeah, there's no way this is investigative PR play, especially since the moment a Goon flips we know Zach MUST be Town.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Benmage

hey benmage
welcome to critical mass

[Zachrulez]

Ok, remind me to never post again while drunk, those were really bad posts.

Shadoweh, I answered your question already at the end of the last Day. Bottom line is that I don't have any confident scumreads. The only read I have that is even close to a scumread right now is the N/OGML slot and even then I've been waffling on it due to the slot's interactions with CTD and N's replace out. I've made this pretty damn clear to anyone who actually bothers to read my posts.

The interactions with CTD were the only thing that kept me from voting the slot during the last dayphase if I'm remembering correctly. Now that I think about it, that's probably not a good enough reason. The replace out was a big fat null for me.

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

[Zachrulez]

Let's actually give a visual aid of all of OGML's mentions of Benmage.

Mostly an antiprod.

Why is no one else interested in a Benmage wagon?

I'm still reading things but this one is a layup.

Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: CES

Reading Crash from d1, CES is among the people he never did much with (see Tammy's

773

for a full list). He ends up with two mentions:

Short answer: I haven't seen anything from him that indicates scum to me. This comment was mostly intended to get you and CES to do something more productive with your votes.

In the quote, 'him' is Vi, while 'you' is Benmage. Kind of coach-y, definitely a kid gloves approach. This is also one of the reasons I've been interested in Benmage, along with the l-1 'blame someone else' wagon hop on penguin. The other CES namecheck is here:

Johhog's CES vote is lazy and scummy. Instead of commenting on anything relevant going on or using his vote in a productive manner, he parks it on a player that has virtually no chance of getting wagoned based on his weak meta suspicion. Would vote.

Especially given the benefit of knowing Joh's alignment too, its a solid chainsaw defense.

Not much, I know, but enough for me to get off the sidelines, since people would rather whine at me than actually look at Benmage.

And no, I haven't finished reading the whole thread front to back yet. I'll get there.

I see CES suspicion explained to some degree here.

OGML what happened to benmage?

If you mean why did I take my vote off of Benmage, I think my post explained that pretty well. I'd still like to see him hang.

Yeah, you made

some

effort to explain your CES vote, which is more than can be said about Benmage.

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

The wagon I always wanted and it's finally here! Oh happy day.

Goes back to playing Pathfinder...

unvote vote OGML

idiocy is a plague best dealt with early.

So idiocy is a scumtell now?

This is just an easy way to throw away your vote without even pretending like you actually think I'm scum.

I still don't understand the disdain for a Benmage wagon.

Say Vi, could you maybe get on the Benmage wagon now? Pretty please?

Vote: Benmage

No question this is today's lynch.

Why Benmage?

Are you for real? Did you watch anything about how yesterday's lynch went down?

Or, as has been pointed out when other people keep asking me this same question over and over again, you can check out my iso. It's not very long.

Now let's see some more Ben votes, and maybe somebody can do us all a favor and vig CES tonight.

You still haven't given a single reason why Benmage is scum. (Referring to yesterday's lynch is ridiculously vague.)

OGML, you have given no reasoning for a Benmage wagon other than a throwaway comment in Post 1141. Why the surprise when people keep asking that question, when you are clearly capable of much more than what you have put out so far?

Reasons to suspect Benmage should be self evident. You express suspicion of him yourself. It just feels like people keep tossing this throwaway question at me as an excuse to ignore Ben themselves.

Next question: OGML, how would you define your scum play?

Completely godawful.

Hey, you know that's a pretty accurate description of your play here.

Unvote: Vote: OGML

Oh, and you'll notice that him and CES are suspicious of each other. Should this lynch pop scum and one should be tempted to lay town cred on CES for it or vice versa... don't buy it.

[Shadoweh]

Mrr. OGML: People aren't going to stop asking you the question until they feel you've tried to answer it again. Since it is detrimental to what I want at this point I would appreciate if you would try to go into specifics again, even if it feels to you like you're repeating things you've already said.

Not that there's alot of Benmage to go into because he's been so contentful this game. Rocks only give so much blood.

[Zachrulez]

Mrr. OGML: People aren't going to stop asking you the question until they feel you've tried to answer it again. Since it is detrimental to what I want at this point I would appreciate if you would try to go into specifics again, even if it feels to you like you're repeating things you've already said.

Not that there's alot of Benmage to go into because he's been so contentful this game. Rocks only give so much blood.

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

While you're here, feel free to explain to me why

you

think we should be lynching Benmage.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

I missed it too at first but there is a line in the middle bit of the post on me (#859) that does at least say something.

[Llamarble]

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

I get why this behavior is annoying, but I don't get what it has to do with his alignment.
I will probably end up in favor of a CES lynch, but yesterday's scramble still needs to be reread.
Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.
He also makes the wagons make lots of sense as of my last checking.
VOTE: CES

[Zachrulez]

I missed it too at first but there is a line in the middle bit of the post on me (#859) that does at least say something.

So there is.

That's like giving you a single letter to a wheel of fortune puzzle and then saying, how can you not understand what the answer is? It's OBVIOUS.

[Zachrulez]

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

I get why this behavior is annoying, but I don't get what it has to do with his alignment.
I will probably end up in favor of a CES lynch, but yesterday's scramble still needs to be reread.
Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.
He also makes the wagons make lots of sense as of my last checking.
VOTE: CES

OGML's posting is empty, and empty posting benefits scum play a lot more than it does town.

Tierce also touches on it here.

One of the issues with OGML is that his games are mostly pretty old. I'd say the most relevant ones are from Micro 53 to American Revolution as Town, and Playground Mafia as scum.

Town games: Micro 53 (this was the game I had as a base for "OGML is far better than this", which I remembered from months ago because I had discussed it with Empire), Author Mafia, American Revolution Mafia, Open 411, Mini 1141, American Gods Mafia

(don't hurt me, Faraday)

Scum games: Playground Mafia

Everything older than this is meta that is 2+ years old. A quick skim of the games above really doesn't incline me to do anything but vote OGML. :/ He was somewhat better in Playground Mafia, but there was still that rapid, pointless tunneling with little to no explanation, which he gives without any trouble in Town games.

Empire, if you could go through those a bit today/tomorrow/whenever, that'd be great. I know you suspect OGML, but I was trying to ignore that read because of what I posted above (and wanted to swat you when you kept pushing him), but yeah, there's no way this is investigative PR play, especially since the moment a Goon flips we know Zach MUST be Town.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.

You realize that the last time you applied a BoP argument to me I was trying to bus my scum buddy for pretty much the whole game, right?

OGML's one post of anything is the definition of keyword-based scumhunting. N's posts are littered with signs he can't produce and is trying to deny it (see the final "oh, I'd been waiting for this ongoing game end to make the most inane push on Empire imaginable" post for the clearest example). That slot has only done scummy things; that there is not more on them is purely a function of their play.

[Llamarble]

Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.

You realize that the last time you applied a BoP argument to me I was

trying to bus my scum buddy for pretty much the whole game, right?

scum.

BoP is about more than voting the bad peoples.

As for the OGML / N slot, their scumhunting has been weak and they have been annoying, but N's manner of getting mad and the looseness of style they both had make me think they won't flip scum.
Pretty similar to Benmage's laziness, really.
Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

That's actually pretty much exactly what BoP is. I also don't really see how you can go for that type of argument in the same game that you're voting me on PoE grounds on D3 (especially if N/benmage turn out to be scum).

As for the OGML / N slot, their scumhunting has been weak and they have been annoying, but N's manner of getting mad and the looseness of style they both had make me think they won't flip scum.
Pretty similar to Benmage's laziness, really.

That just seems like lazy pattern matching. N's anger was wholly misplaced and N is, fundamentally, not a bad scum player - think of it as a competent scum response to lack of content. Benmage's town tell is another man's scum tell so I'm not really sure why you would mention him.

Seems like Nacho would need to be scum if N is, given D1. Which was also when N was absent from the Penguin wagon.

Why?