Mini 343: Donnie Darko 0:0:0:0 Game Over

[EmpTyger]

Random

vote: AniX

Sentinel:
I'll take that as a compliment

[EmpTyger]

AniX:
What do you think about the MeMe/chamber thing?

[EmpTyger]

I’m not sure whose reaction I like less: AniX or chamber.

Unvote: AniX

while I decide.

[EmpTyger]

AniX:
Don’t like your behavior more than I don’t like chamber’s. For someone at the epicenter of the whole debate, you’ve gone out of your way to avoiding committing yourself, even when directly asked. I strongly suggest you participate fully quite quickly- you are most suspicious in my eyes…


chamber:
…but I see you as a strong enough second that I have no problems first dealing with your suspicious behavior and illogic.

Vote: chamber

. This puts you at 6 votes, and thus lynch-1. Unless your skill at defending yourself gets miraculously better, you’d I suggest you claim.

[EmpTyger]

Mea culpa on the votecount. Not sure how that happened.


AniX:

<snip>I think both sides are overreacting to a relatively small issue,<snip>

Then why did you not say that when I asked what you think of the issue! In fact, if you genuinely did believe this, why *wouldn’t* you say something? The fact that you were willing to sit back and be passive while the town pursued a course that *you* believed was unproductive is confirming my suspicion of you.

[EmpTyger]

I feel a little better about miscounting the vote with the mod also doing so.
<points to [61]>

Unvote: chamber, vote: chamber

[EmpTyger]

Unvote: chamber

. I definitely want to hear more from CK before a lynch. Will reply to AniX and reread the thread when I get a chance; been kind of busy irl this week.

[EmpTyger]

Simulposted with CK, but still want to hear more from him- he's still begging the question of why he assumed chamber was protown. And

revote: chamber

, since I don't want to eliminate pressure from him; this puts him at 5 now (lynch-2).

[EmpTyger]

bah I hate rushed simulposting.

CK:
I feel you made a slip- the type I would think an antitown likely to made- and I am curious about how you made the assumptions you say you did.

[EmpTyger]

Deliberately lurking. I believe I’ve caught a tell, and I’m not sure how to best play it, and want to analyze more before I act.

[EmpTyger]

[As posted in the V/LA thread and PMed to the mods, I will be having limited access during the end of this week through the weekend. I do not expect to need to be replaced.]

I think I might know what might have happened with CK last night.


MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

[EmpTyger]

Another interpretation that just came to me: CK and Scalebane know each other in real life, though 1) I have no idea if nonny's aware of that and 2) outside-of-game information

probably

wouldn't be used as flavor text.

Thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

MeMe:
How do you know that CK and Scalebane know each other irl?

We all play together on BSW nights.

So doesn’t your thrown-out-there-anyway interpretation apply just as much to you as to Scalebane?

[EmpTyger]

Listen up, folks. *I* killed CK.

<dramatic pause>

So, 2 things.
1) Something happened to the mafiakill. (And to a hypothetical SKkill.) While there could have been some protective ability, there is also a chance that CK targeted a nightkiller.
2) The tell I spotted: analysis into CK’s death. The mafia know that this kill isn’t theirs, so I would think that they would try to focus on who might have killed CK. And they would presume a single killing group, be it SK or vigilante.

Incidentally, now that I’ve come forward, I’m going to state my target inthread to allow them to defend themself. I strongly advise that players do better than chamber.


Scalebane:
I feel that you seem to be analyzing CK’s death from the standpoint of a sole killer being responsible for that choice. You were the first to try to analyze the nightkill. And some of Chess’s points against you, albeit in the context of accusing STD, could hold.

Side note: I don’t get why you focus on Sotty for mentioning CK, but don’t even mention my question of him. But this para., for example, seems like you’re searching for a SK’s kill:

<snip>Sotty7: I'm watching you simply because you were one of the few people who even mentioned Kurtz. Honestly, I simply did a thread search for whose posts his name even showed up in, and it was quite a short list. And the answer to your question is obvious: You might have killed CK even though you implied that he was scum and you were the only person to vote him because those facts provide the perfect cover for your own actions by providing you with the ability to claim that it would be really stupid for you to kill him in the light of the fact that you implied that you thought he was scum and that you were the only person to vote him. So your argument doesn't really help you all that much. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm simply saying that I'm watching you because you were one of ... 3 or so people who even mentioned him and he turned up dead today. That's enough reason to note and pay closer attention to you in my mind. And I think MeMe's mention was simply in a list, which is why I said that IGMEOY and not on her. Even though, I suppose, I do have two eyes.<snip>

STD:
Not yet sure what to make of the debate between you & Chess. 2 questions:

<snip>

Because you are chasing him for no reason.

I hope I won't have to say this to any female in my lifetime, but: just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

I’ll bite. What’s it?

<snip>Are you seriously saying that Scalebane should have accused both myself and himself of being scum because chamber got killed? Dude. It sucks that chamber got killed, but you can't get them everytime and you can't just go after everyone on a wagon just because 7 townies thought it was alright to kill chamber for his actions.<snip>

Well, CK was protown, and presumably you’d know your own alignment. How did you clear the other 5?


Chess:

<snip>Maybe I am onto a scum

Maybe I am not. I don't know. I would like to beleive that we know who the scum are but we don't. So in the interest of the town if there is not another voted added to STD by Friday 12 noon CST I will stop talking about this topic. Unless someone specifically asks tells me not to.<snip>

If you have something to add, add it.


MeMe:
Ah, thanks for explaining the BSW reference- indeed I hadn’t recognize it. However, it might not be a dead end. Consider (1) above: there is not only the question of whether someone targeted CK because they knew him irl, but whether CK targeted someone because he knew them irl.


Ixnay:

<snip>...If I may inquire about post #85 may I ask 'What do you want to hear from him...that was a bit of a random request...'<snip>

I’m assuming this loose end is now moot?

[EmpTyger]

I had 3 reasons for targeting CK. I choose not to spell them out explicitly at this time, although I will clarify that my decision was most definitely not random.

As for why I came forward when I did: I had gotten to see which players reacted initially; later reactions aren’t as useful because they could be legitimate replies to those initial comments that other players had already made. But what *would* be additional useful information were reactions to my announcement. In any case, I always intended to come forward before the end of the day, to allow my target a chance to defend themself. I considered it more important to allow my target a chance to defend themself (especially in light of chamber’s and CK’s deaths) than to keep secret the fact that I was a vigilante. And while I didn’t think myself high on a hitlist, I didn’t want to be killed off before revealing that something significant happened N1.


Scalebane:
I did mention CK day 1, a fact you like to keep ignoring. You’ve paid the most attention to the manner of CK’s death (aside from me, but I’ve given a reason for that). And you were the first to pay attention to CK’s death. You knew CK irl, which combined with your being on the lynch of the D1 innocent might make you a more likely choice for him to have targeted. Your reaction in [139] seems like desperate attempts to spin. You were on chamber’s lynch. None of these things are damning on their own, but taken together, I like a

Vote: Scalebane

.


Ixnay:
There are a lot of possibilities, of varying degrees of likeliness. But the point I felt it important to make was that *something* happened last night. (And yes, I thought that CK would be mafia or SK. )


olio:
Please explain how this “perfect claim for a SK” doesn’t get me killed one way or another well before endgame. (I’m not talking about WIFOM; I’m talking about that there’s no way for me to know that there isn’t a real vigilante out there.) And temporarily assuming I am a SK, that wouldn’t change the fact that something happened to the mafiakill. And you are blatantly fishing for my rolename. I’d like to know why. It’s not going to give you any additional information, since whoever I am is clearly capable flavorwise of killing. And if it’s a matter of counterclaiming, I’m already going to stand or fall on the vigilante claim. Your fishing is nagging at the back of my head.


Sotty:
See above to olio regarding my nameclaim, and at the top regarding my reasons. I claimed freely. I am not trying to defend myself, or escape suspicious, or avoid a lynch. I revealed what I did because I thought that it would be help the town. I did not reveal what I did not reveal because I think that it would be hurt the town.

[EmpTyger]

Want to respond but have some bad traffic karma that I'm dealing with, and don't have the time at the moment. Will try to tomorrow.

[EmpTyger]

Clarification: I have already said fully why reasons for suspecting Scalebane. What I have not revealed is (1) my name and (2) my reasons for targeting CK last night. I have not done so because I have no cause to yet. I am not vouching for Scalebane’s alignment. I do find him most suspicious, and believe him mafia, but I do not want to imply that I am guaranteeing his guilt. I am not. These are only suspicions.


Scalebane:

<snip>

I had 3 reasons for targeting CK. I choose not to spell them out explicitly at this time, although I will clarify that my decision was most definitely not random.

Yes, well, considering that people have been asking for these reasons so that maybe they'll have a reason not to vote you, it might be nice if you quit going "Yes, I do look like an SK, yeah, yeah, but c'mon guys! look at scalebane! look at scalebane! not me!" and start defending yourself.<snip>

There’s more than 1 way to defend myself. I believe I don’t need to give my reasons regarding CK to convince people I’m not a SK. And considering the only evidence you have against me is the very information that I gave unpromptedly and freely, I’m in no rush to defend myself.

You knew CK irl, which combined with your being on the lynch of the D1 innocent might make you a more likely choice for him to have targeted.

See, I have a really hard time not being offended by this because you just implied that CK and I were cheating, or at least that he would have a good enough idea of my role because he knew me in real life. Do you not see where he completely fails to say anything about me being suspicious D1? That's because he didn't think I was! You're also basing your logic on the assumptions you want to reach. You just said: "Scalebane is scum. CK could read that very easily and blocked him, which implies that Scalebane is scum." which is just bad logic. *And* CK was on the chamber lynch for most of D1.<snip>

Sorry, I’m not implying you’re cheating. I’m considering this from CK’s PoV. I’m assuming it’s more likely he blocked someone on chamber’s lynch: STD, Ixnay (Hammer), Scalebane, CK, olio, Tyger, MeMe. I know he didn’t block me, and he obviously didn’t block himself. Someone he knew irl, whose behavior might have seemed off, maybe? I mean, knowing now what you know, who do you think CK might have targeted?

I revealed what I did because I thought that it would be help the town. I did not reveal what I did not reveal because I think that it would be hurt the town.

It's the last sentence of this that's been nagging at me (bolding mine). I don't see how anyone could read that and not get suspicious. You're claiming that you know what's best for the town, and more information is not it. Well, perhaps revealing more information would be bad for *your* side. But I highly doubt that it could hurt the town.<snip>

Oh?! Why haven’t *you* nameclaimed, then? Which you were quick to try to toss out as a suggestion to AniX in [67].

And as I've said in previous posts, excuse me for trying to use information from the nightkill in figuring out who could be anti-town.

Because half of that information was only known to me and the mafia. Ironically, I wasn’t the first to call you on this: Chess did in [116], well before I came forward.


olio:

<snip>That said, I believe your claim at the moment. I do disagree with you that your rolename wouldn't give any extra information, but at the same time I see the benefit of keeping it disclosed. Latter seems to be better now.<snip>

Of course my rolename would give extra information. If you want a massnameclaim, go for it. I don’t see any reason to offer mine freely. I claimed partially because it provided the town with useful information that was otherwise only known to myself and the mafia. Claiming my name would most likely give as much information to the mafia as it would to the town.


Ixnay:

<snip>

I had 3 reasons for targeting CK. I choose not to spell them out explicitly at this time

By at this time, do you mean you will tell us later, or not at all? Or that you will only tell us under specific circumstances?
BTW, what(name) character are you? Did your character know Gretchen in the movie? Like the bully or Donnie or her father? That way we could tell whether or not Nonny's hints help us determine who the nightkiller was.

Go fish. *I* was the nightkiller, remember?
Rest mostly answered elsewhere, but as for whether I’d ever tell my reasons: While I see no reason to now, circumstances later could certainly change.


Sotty:

With everything we have going on, I'm not to sure about the motives of people pushing the lurker, Anix. I get the slight feeling of them trying to distract away from the current discussion. That said I know Meme hates lurkers and STD could be the same but something about it doesn't really click. Why not just ask for a

prod

?

I really don't like olio's vote switch. I agree with STD's point about someone sticking their neck out so early in the manner that Chess has points more towards him being town over scum. He has been actively out there looking for scum and jumping on him so quick doesn't sit well with me.

FOS:olio

Something really bothers me here. You mention olio, MeMe, Chess, STD, and AniX- but don’t have anything to say about the Tyger/Scalebane matter. And the only other post you’ve made since then, [151], was a hedge on me. You’ve been silent on Scalebane, and to me it feels like you’re trying to distance yourself.

[EmpTyger]

Scalebane:

The funniest thing, EmpTyger, is that you keep implying that just because you came forward that it makes you innocent.<snip>

No, the funniest thing, Scalebane, is that you keep implying that just because I came forward that it makes me guilty. At the moment more is known about me than about any other player. So why should *I* be needing to give further information about myself?

Claiming my name would most likely give as much information to the mafia as it would to the town.

No! Get out! You mean that the mafia would also be able to read your post! Oh, you are too much!

I was drawing a contrast between that and the claim I had made. This is pure theory. The mafia already knew that they didn’t kill CK, whereas the town was in the dark. So I was giving significantly more information to the town than to the mafia. This is clearly beneficial. Whereas with my nameclaim, I would be giving out information that both the mafia and the town equally lack. It is not as obvious that this would help the town.


Ixnay:

EmpTyger, the fact that you will not claim your name is becoming increasingly more suspicious.

Likewise the fact that you keep pressing me. You are arguing circularly. AniX or MeMe or *any* other player have also not nameclaimed. Should they? Well, given that you’re not pressing him to the same degree, evidentally not. Why is this? Based on your logic: I should nameclaim because I’m suspicious, and I’m suspicious because I haven’t nameclaimed.

Claiming my name would most likely give as much information to the mafia as it would to the town.

...um...how would it help the Mafia to learn your 'name'? They already know that you're a vigilante, what more do they need?

A safeclaim, maybe?

BTW, what(name) character are you? Did your character know Gretchen in the movie? Like the bully or Donnie or her father? That way we could tell whether or not Nonny's hints help us determine who the nightkiller was.

Go fish. *I* was the nightkiller, remember?

I meant for future nightkill refrences...If your name, which you still won't claim, knew gretchen, then we could use that to find out any more nightkills in the future. <snip>

Nope, guess again. For future nightkills, either I’ll be alive, in which case I’ll be able to make that determinination in that circumstance; or I’ll be dead and my rolename will be public knowledge.


AniX:
If it helps, know that I was awfully close to targeting you last night, and would love to ease my conscience by finding some evidence why that would have been at least as bad as killing CK. This isn’t a threat, just a statement: I don’t consider lurking as protown behavior.

[EmpTyger]

There’s no great advantage in my not revealing my name, just a slight advantage. But that’s an advantage nonetheless, so I’m going to take it. I have been accused by Sotty and Scalebane, among others, of withholding information. I’ve admitted this.

But it’s also true of every other player in this game.

And, to repeat myself, I have withheld the *least* of all players in this game. So I am skeptical of those suspecting me for this reason. And that’s why, until I hear better reason, I will continue to disregard the calls for me to claim.


Sotty:
First of all, that’s not really my point. My point is that *following* my announcement, when every other player started talking more about me and Scalebane, you clammed up. (Except for AniX, who is having to rely on some convoluted explanation regarding his playstyle, which in fairness is at least consistent with his other play in this game. And for Sentinel, but he’s posted once on the entire site in the past 12 days. [Mod?])
Yet while avoiding this major topic of conversation you do manage to stay abreast of the rest of the game, as I noticed when you commented on 5 other players in [173].

You’re quick to point to [133], (which as I said isn’t relevant to my accusation):

<snip>I'm more inclined to believe Scalebane is scum cause he does follow along the Chamber lynch and helps fuel the fire a little. Then he starts the day off trying to throw suspicion on me for the night kill of CK, even though he agrees the whole idea of it is pretty WIFOM. Maybe my heckles are raised because he was trying to link me, but I just don't like the weak attempt to throw suspicion my way. That said there isn't enough for me to vote him yet, he has brought up some interesting points and is never afraid to articulate his point of view.<snip>

But I hardly would call that “calling Scalebane out”. Considering what you have FoSed players for, I’d expect that if you genuinely did wish to call Scalebane out, you’d have at least FoSed him. On the contrary, you defend his character.

So the only thing you’ve said relevant to that issue since my vigclaim is:

Listen up, folks. *I* killed CK.

Guess I'm just really echoing the rest of the town ...but why? This partial role claim makes me feel uneasy. If I was to come out with something as big as this I would disclose all information about my role that I could and my reasons for why CK was selected. At the moment it feels like you are withholding information and that makes me feel like I shouldn't trust you. Even though if your claim is true and in fact pro town (or even if you are the SK) then my suspicions of Scalebane would increase enough for a vote, I need to hear more form you before I can really make a decision either way.

1) Baa.
2) Ask me why I killed CK N1. Which is extremely odd considering you yourself were voting him at the end of D1!
3) Be uneasy about my not fully claiming. I’m commented about this elsewhere, but it’s apparently been common enough sentiment that nothing either way can be concluded.
4) State that you would vote Scalebane if satisfied by my claim. Why wouldn’t you want to hear any defense from Scalebane? Wouldn’t you want to hear *his* claim just as much as mine if trying to make this kind of decision?

I’m getting a strong enough vibe from you that I’m going to

unvote: Scalebane, vote: Sotty7.

Scalebane:
Just because Sotty’s eclipsed in suspicion doesn’t mean I’m not still bothered by you. Don’t think you’re going anywhere.


Chess:

<snip>Also, I still think a name claim is a good idea, but if it is just Scotty and I calling for it I will let it rest as the town does not want it.<snip>

Just checking, but you mean just me nameclaiming, or a massnameclaim?


olio:
Although, rather than distracting, I happen to think that the town is gaining useful information from these postings. I’d like to hear your response to Chess’s question to you in [197].

Sotty, how is EmpTyger hurting himself by not revealing his name? There hasn't been counter-claim from vig. How big is the probability that there isn't a vig in this game in your opinion?

Incidentally, the more relevant question is if I were not a vig, how big is the probability that I would know that there weren’t a real vig in this game.


AniX:
Who *do* you think suspicious?

[EmpTyger]

Ixnay:

<snip>

I have withheld the *least* of all players in this game.

Other players have not been called out on it. I would give information if I needed to, but I don't need to. So would most of the players in this game. But you have partially claimed and been fairly vague many times.<snip>

This is still a circular argument. You say that other players have not been called out for not revealing information because they have not revealed information. Whereas I have been called out for not revealing information because I have revealed information.

{to sotty7}So the only thing you’ve said relevant to that issue since my vigclaim is:
1) Baa.
2) Ask me why I killed CK N1. Which is extremely odd considering you yourself were voting him at the end of D1!
3) Be uneasy about my not fully claiming. I’m commented about this elsewhere, but it’s apparently been common enough sentiment that nothing either way can be concluded.
4) State that you would vote Scalebane if satisfied by my claim. Why wouldn’t you want to hear any defense from Scalebane? Wouldn’t you want to hear *his* claim just as much as mine if trying to make this kind of decision?

I’m getting a strong enough vibe from you that I’m going to unvote: Scalebane, vote: Sotty7.

Save for #4, I'm pretty sure that everyone has done these things. This seems a little OMGUS to me, because out of all the players in this game, you pick Sotty7, who just spent an entire post accusing you.

(2) is also unique to her. But my larger point is not what she said, but what she didn’t. Also, The reason she just spent an entire post accusing me was because I had just called her out. I explain in [175] that I’m bothered by her behavior. She defends herself in [191]. I am unsatisfied by her defense in [198] and vote her. It’s certainly not OMGUS if *I* go first.

I'm asking you clearly - lay down all of the infromation you have right now. Stop being so vague. I know that most of these quotes are kind of cleared up now, but at the time, you were just being vague. Please, in the future, just say all you have to say.<snip>

To not be vague: no.
There is value in keeping information hidden. (If there weren’t, then we would have massclaimed yesterday.) So information that I see reason to revealed I will reveal. (As I have done so.) Information that I feel should not be revealed, or information I am not sure about, I will not reveal.

[In the interests of making a distinction between chamber’s behavior and mine- chamber’s lynch was clearly not in his best interests, thus he should have revealed his information.]

Could you please explain this? "I'm talking about that there's no way for me to know that there isn't a real vigilante out there." ...? and please explain what you mean by - "I’m already going to stand or fall on the vigilante claim. "<snip>

My nameclaim will not aid in determining my guilt or innocence. Regardless of my alignment, I’m capable of killing a player. I’m going to be claiming a character for who being a vigilante would make sense, and thus a character for who a killing role would make sense, and thus who conceivably could be mafia or a SK. So the only advantage (for the town, at least) in my doing so would be to see if I get counterclaimed- and the vigilante claim, which doesn’t give any additional information away- is perfectly capable of doing so.

I am going to publicly submit my nightchoice for the town’s approval, so there will at most 1 death out of the town’s control between now and tomorrow. There is a worstcase scenario with mislynch, misvig, nightkill, and my being an unnightkillable godfather of a 3 person mafia. But if that’s what you’re worried about, a real vigilante can force a trade by counterclaiming today.

[EmpTyger]

Sotty:
I don’t believe you.

I don’t see anything that implies that you were about to vote Scalebane before I came forward. And I don’t like how all of a sudden you’re all “Scalebane is still number one on my list,” since I don’t see you ever being anyone near that strong. Consider the deliberative analytic buildup before you voted chamber; you didn’t hesitate in trying to evaluate his situation. But with me and Scalebane, your were nearly silent until I turned the spotlight onto you. You mention a few skepticisms of me in [151], but otherwise avoid the issue so completely that you don’t even mention either of us in [173], which was only your second post since I came forward.

These to me are not the posts of someone about who was about to vote Scalebane. These to me are not the posts of someone to figure out whether I was telling the truth.

Also, by “baa” I meant it seemed like you were trying to blend in with the town.

<snip>I can see what you are trying to say here, but no else has come forward and gone,

“Guys, I was responsible for last nights kill.”<snip>

Hypothetical question:
Temporarily assume that I’m telling the truth. What would you have done in the morning if you had discovered that you were a vigilante and your kill was the night’s only death?

Would it make you feel better if I just FOS'ed you both?

It might have, had you at the time. The point is that you didn’t.


Scalebane:
*We* certainly do need to start discussing potential targets. A good first step might be, um, to mention potential targets. You don’t; in fact, all you do is unvote. So, who do you think?

Also, Sotty claims that she thought you most suspicious. Did you get that feeling from her? Do you believe her?

(Lest the irony police pull me over, I am thinking Sotty should be lynched, obviously. I can see good arguments for Scalebane and AniX.)


AniX:
There is a wonderful metagame discussion to be had comparing and contrasting your, mine, and chamber’s respective obstinacies. Or, you know, you could participate. Or, you know, I could vigkill you for doing absolutely nothing to help the town.

[EmpTyger]

AniX:

Emp:I am currently at mock trial camp and barely following all my games thanks tobskipping breakfast and dinner. Had I not, totally would be lost in a sea of posts.<snip>

search.php?search_author=AniX

[EmpTyger]

<snip>...and getting an avatar makes rereads easier.<snip>

No surprise that 1000 words are easier for me than a picture. Ironically, though, my lack of an avatar came up 2 other times in this past day, neither connected to this site, and I had finally selected one, but just hadn’t gotten around to uploading it.
And it’s a shame I already have a title. “Extremely Vague” amuses me.

[EmpTyger]

AniX:
It doesn’t need to be long, but it needs to have content. Some kind of participation. Some kind of interaction with other players. Something indicating who you suspect, or who you don’t. Extra credit if you include reasons.
I don’t want you to defend your nonparticipation. I want you to correct it.

<snip>if you expect me to do anything resembling this length in the next two days, you better deliver me some food or something.<snip>

<tosses AniX a super fudge cake brownie>

[EmpTyger]

I’m feeling a innocent vs. innocent vibe from Chess/olio, but I’d have no problem hearing more from them. And I’d really like to hear more from Scalebane, though for a different reason.


AniX:
Well, I certainly concur with your conclusion about how I shouldn’t be lynched. But who do you think should be?

<snip>4.Emp is a townie who really likes to lie. If this is the case, he is a dumbass and should be lynched because he would eventually lynch the confirmed townie over the confirmed SK. This is naturally the least likely situation, but I thought I'd add it...just in case.<snip>

This case can be eliminated. If I am lying, I am not protown.

[EmpTyger]

MeMe:
Honestly, were you to be mafia, I would figure you to play this exactly the way you have been. I don’t think there’s anything to be made of this today. I wasn’t going to mention anything before at least twilight, if not tomorrow, but since Sotty did bring it up…


Sotty:

<snip> Emp – You didn't comment on my answers to your questions. Regardless of your role, you're in the position to kill me tonight and I would like to know if I have managed to sway you either way or not. <snip>

I’m going to indicate whoever I would be killing inthread to give them a chance to defend themself fully. I don’t want another CK. (Or, for that matter, another chamber.)

<snip>

Sotty:
I don’t believe you.

I don’t see anything that implies that you were about to vote Scalebane before I came forward. And I don’t like how all of a sudden you’re all “Scalebane is still number one on my list,” since I don’t see you ever being anyone near that strong.

Consider the deliberative analytic buildup before you voted chamber; you didn’t hesitate in trying to evaluate his situation.

But with me and Scalebane, your were nearly silent until I turned the spotlight onto you. You mention a few skepticisms of me in [151], but otherwise avoid the issue so completely that you don’t even mention either of us in [173], which was only your second post since I came forward.

First things first. I never voted Chamber... so I don't know where you go that from

Sorry, bad phrasing. “Consider the deliberative analytic buildup while you were considering whether to vote chamber…” Specifically, I was referring to [65].

As for the rest, believe me, don't believe me but know this. I am inherently thoughtful/careful player and when I am unsure in certain situations (ala you v Scale) I try and gather as much info as possible before jumping on either side. I was a little quite for awhile there, but checking my posting record on the site, I was busy during that time so I was quiet in all my games. Bad timing, perhaps but it's one reason. When my gut/thought process is clear I push on players that I think warrant it, (Olio, CK, early day Chamber) but as I have said over and over I'm still torn between you and Scale <snip>

This is exactly my point. That *is* your playstyle, and how you’ve behaved towards those players, and more besides. But you *haven’t* acted that way with Scalebane, which was what called you to my attention. (Nor with me initially, as well, though you have now that you’ve been pressed.) Especially the way you afterwards tried to portray yourself as having been so strongly against Scalebane. If that’s how you felt, why hadn’t you said anything? It just feels like your attitude towards Scalebane is different. You’re still the most suspicious player to me, and I’m keeping my vote on you.


Scalebane:

<snip>I think sotty is town, but I'm not quite sure why I think that.<snip>

If you do figure it out, I’d be interested in hearing why. Also,
[quote="Scalebane "[219]"]I get the impression from Sotty that she thought I was the most suspicious out of the set [Scalebane, STD] which was what Chess brought up at the beginning of today. If sotty thought I was the most suspicious out of everyone in the game, I'm not really sure.<snip>[/quote]

<snip>Scalebane is still number one on my list, but my evidence isn't really compelling.<snip>

[EmpTyger]

MeMe:
Well, yeah. That’s why I wasn’t planning on mentioning it just yet.

[EmpTyger]

I’m feeling a little silly, but what happened to nonny?


Sotty:

<snip>You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here and I have come to realize that this is

your

play style. If you go back and re-read you'll see I was talking about Scale

before

you came out with your little theory. He was attempting to throw suspicion on me for a kill you did. Then I disappeared for a little while and like I said before I was away from the whole site! That's why I hadn't said anything during the initial argument between you and Scale. I have pretty much refuted all of your points against me Emp or at least brought up good reason for why I behaved in such away. We are just dancing around in circles here.

But after you returned to the site, why didn’t you have anything to say about Scalebane then?

<snip>Now you're trying to link Scale and me based on...what?

As I explained in [247], a change in your playstyle.

[EmpTyger]

I apologize to the town, but the worst of my access difficulties will be occurring this week. This deadline is particularly bad because the town needs at least 2 people to have a chance defend themselves- the lynch and vigtargets- and certain defenses might lead to reevaluation that we would lack the time to do fully. Put another way, if you’re number 2 on the town’s hitlist, don’t wait until the last minute.

I’m torn between my original tell (Scalebane), my current suspicion (Sotty), and the lurkers who are actively or passively refusing to voice their suspicions (of which AniX is the worst to me). I’m also becoming increasingly suspicious of Chess for a lot of little things that feel off. I’m wavering enough to

unvote: Sotty7

, and want to think and hear more before I revote.


Chess:
I don’t understand the relative positionings of MeMe (2), Sentinel (3), and AniX (4) in [266]. Could you explain why you feel those ways. Also, can you clarify what you meant by the “sotty issue” in [262]?


AniX:
Getting close to this alleged hour of yours…


Sotty:
Just because I unvoted doesn’t mean I don’t still want to hear your response to [261].


Scalebane:
Just because I haven’t been voting doesn’t mean I don’t still want to hear your response to [247].


Mod:
Worstcase scenario: the deadline is not lifted. What will the procedure then be?

[EmpTyger]

With the deadline rescinded, I am not going to place a vote until Sentinel is replaced. At the moment I feel I’m most suspicious of Chess and the lurkers, and it’s hard to evaluate without hearing from Sentinel.

I did have a thought on rereading that I’d like to pose. chamber hovered at lynch-1 for a bit. In retrospect, this seems kind of interesting, because he was obvious lynchbait. Why would it so hard, relatively speaking, for him to be lynched? I can brainstorm several hypotheses for this, but thought I’d pose publicly all the same.


STD:
Art for art’s sake?

<snip>

I think I might know what might have happened with CK last night.

To me, this puts you in just as much danger as claiming the kill, while giving less information. Why?<snip>

Stirring the pot while trying to leave it sufficiently ambiguous. Since Scalebane had already opened up the topic for discussion, any further talk on the subject (ie: by MeMe) could have been attributable to guilt or to responding innocently to his questioning. I hoped someone might react to that statement; antitowns would interpret it correctly, since they had knowledge of what happened, but protowns might have thought that I meant something about the roleblocking if not something else. If anything, I’d read MeMe as thinking I was hinting that CK roleblocked her, but she didn’t really bite, so it was moot.

I had always intended to claim the kill today, so that the town wouldn’t make mistaken assumptions about what had happened the previous night. The question was when.


Scalebane:
Still not sure about you, and Sotty makes a good point that you seem to be lying low once attention fell off.

<snip>I really want to give some snide remark about how I'll reply to EmpTyger's questions when he responds to half the town's, but the issue is that I can't honestly bring myself to think that lynching EmpTyger is the best move for today so I have little reason to try and argue for it.

I did not answer fully because I believed that by doing otherwise (a) I could still respond adequately and (b) I could adequately explain why I was holding back. Had that been insufficient, I would have replied fully. If you feel similarly, do similarly.
This isn’t just to deflect snide comments, but also so that my attitude is not mistaken for, say, chamber’s.


MeMe:
Still not completely sure what to make of you, but I happen to not like a lot of the rationale being used to suspect you.


Ixnay:

<snip>Getting rid of the two most inactive players would benefit us, even if they were town.<snip>

Protasis false. I will not be vigkilling a player for the sole purpose of culling the game; I will only vigkill for alignment. Which, admittedly, lurking can be an indicator of. I will not be vigkilling again unless my target has at least been given a chance to defend themself. (Whether they take that opportunity is another matter...)


Sotty:

<snip>I thought I've handled Emps questions pretty well actually.<snip>

Yeah, actually, you have. I hate having to doubt instincts, but you don’t need to claim yet on my account.
Also, minor correction: it’s not that I felt you “latched” onto Scalebane, but the opposite- that you were trying to distance yourself from him.


Chess:
Speaking of doubting my instincts, that innocent/innocent vibe I got from you/olio earlier has definitely passed- and not because of olio.

<snip>@Emp, you mean why I see MeMe as scummier than Sentinel and Anix?
It is nothing more than I feel MeMe is detracting more from the town in her posts, she rarely adds anythign constructive and hardly even posts, yet she is going after some other people who rarely post (granted they are flat out missing at this point) As for Anix being below Sentinel, I have seen his 11th thing work in chat games, I know this is not the same but I have some faith in the man. However, I think he needs to start getting involved as the game is fast approaching the "11th hour"

See, I don’t get that vibe from MeMe at all. Rather, I feel she has said quite a lot this game. But more importantly, accepting that rationale, I don’t see how you could rank AniX over Sentinel, and both under MeMe. There’s something about your comment to MeMe and Sotty in [281] that feels off, like it’s not being written from a townsperson searching for antitowns.

And try as you might to use WIFOM to weasel out of it (and yes- that *is* WIFOM: you are arguing that scum would do X, you are not doing X, therefore you are not scum) you absolutely did try to set up a lynch Scalebane-and-if-he’s-innocent-then lynch Tyger. Which, when you “edited for stress” in [290], you conveniently omitted:

*sign* Okay Olio, lets try this again....

Emp, has said that he will reveal everything in due time. I trust that. Out of safty I ask that we not exceed 4 votes on Scalebane untill said information is out and Scale has a chance to defened. I say 4 because 6 lynches, anybody dumb enough to hammer before

possible

damning information is out must be an scum.

<snip>

Okay, here is my two cents. I really have nothing to add to the discussion right now, but I want to say this. In my gut I think Emp is telling the truth. I posted earlier that I think it is Thok and Scalebane. Thank being said I am okay with getting rid of Scale before Thok.

unvote , VOTE: SCALEBANE

Emp, has said that he will reveal everything in due time. I trust that. Out of safty I ask that we not exceed 4 votes on Scalebane untill said information is out and Scale has a chance to defened. I say 4 because 6 lynches, anybody dumb enough to hammer before possible damning information is out must be an alien/scum whatever.

My final thought is this, if Scalebane comes up clean then we take out Emp, unless Emp can convince us otherwise. Those are my two cents.

AniX:
You are setting off so many redflags for me. Particularly the “trustable” section of [278]. The order feels off. How did you place *yourself* between Chess and olio when writing that post? And why is Chess so beneficial, considering that you seem to be disagreeing with most of his opinions?

[EmpTyger]

I think I will need to do a reread before I can decide who to vote, and I still don't have the opportunity to. The last few posts mean that I can't focus on Chess and Anix, since Sentinel and Scalebane are giving me excellent reasons to suspect each of them as well.


Scalebane:
There's something about [317] that bothers me, and my instinctive reaction was oddly a feeling that you're stretching to attack AniX. The timing also bothers me; just when Sentinel's lurking is shown to be intentional, you suddenly pick that moment to come forward against AniX- despite a history of excusing Sentinel, even in the same post. You also seem overdefensive in clarifying STD's remarks.

Of course, the problem is that there *are* some very good reasons to attack AniX.


Sentinel:
Lying about lurking? What, the usual strategies of lurking and aren't good enough for mafia anymore?

[EmpTyger]

I *definitely* will need to do a reread before I can decide who to vote, and I still don't have the opportunity to. The last few posts mean that I can't focus on Sentinel and Scalebane, since Chess and Anix are giving me excellent reasons to suspect each of them as well.


Chess:
You do realize that the issue is that Sentinel has lied? By signing up for another game, she thus clearly *is* able to play a game of mafia, and thus does not need replacement. And that's the "only thing" you can contribute with?


AniX:
Quit fishing for the cop.

[EmpTyger]

Running to lunch but finally got to do a reread. Will post more tonight or tomorrow.

[EmpTyger]

I had posed a question about why it was seems so relatively hard for the final vote to be put on chamber, an innocent. Since no one else seemed interested, I’ll state my theories:
1) MeMe actually was mafia.
2) Brizzy/Chess was lurking mafia, and didn’t realize the opportunity.
3) Sentinel was lurking mafia, and didn’t realize the opportunity.
4) AniX was mafia, and couldn’t reverse himself having already outlined a playstyle.
5) All the mafia were already voting for chamber among the first 6 votes.
Not enough information yet to figure this one out, but I feel it should be kept in mind.


Chess:

Vote: Chess

. I’m feeling kind of silly that it took me that long to see it. The damning post:

<snip>MeMe drops the hammer vote, a small spat between Sent and Scale flares up, then Nonny announces the verdict. We awake to find CK is dead. This was kind of a surprise to me and frankly I did not catch this until now.<snip>

How was a surprise, when you replaced in right after CK’s deathscene was posted? How, when you were the first to post that day? A surprise? The only way *you* could be surprised would be if you submitted the mafiakill for on another player.

Why did you on arrival at dawn in [108] say that he would have voted chamber also? I mean, you certainly weren’t being accused of anything. The only reason seems to be to defend those who did vote chamber, either genuinely or to protect someone. But you quickly contradicts yourself to go after STD; you says in [108] that you would have voted chamber, but in [115] says that “chamber was posting coherent logic” and that STD “led the town into lynching” chamber. But more glaringly- how does he make this conclusion about *STD*? Wouldn’t *MeMe* be the proper one to think this of? You do mention MeMe as a potential partner, but try to minimize this, as a potential distancing hedge. For he instead focuses on a possible partnership with… Scalebane? Your logic of late just has made less and less sense. It really feels like the mafia planned out overnight who to target, and that’s what you did.


Sentinel:
Why did you bother to remove your random vote in [37]? Your D1 twilight post is a little bizarre still. But very little actual suspicion jumps out about; it’s the lurking and the replacement lie that are suspicious. I just do not believe your story about thinking you were already replaced; you said that you *do* need to be replaced, not that you *did* need to be replaced.

<snip>(Post 61, Emp seems to misunderstand the whole chamber/MeMe thing, says that AniX is at the center of the debate. It was never really about AniX at all, it was about the act of "lurker hunting".)<snip>

Well, that’s why I said *epicenter*, not the center. I did understand that, which seemed to make AniX’s silence all the more odd.


AniX:
I *still* am bothered by [66]. If you were thinking that chamber and MeMe were both protown, why was it so hard for that opinion to be extracted from you? (MeMe gives a particularly good reason in [73]). And I find myself constantly disagreeing with your suspicions and the reasons for them, which gives me little faith in your claimed 11th hour talent. And, I mean, fishing for the cop.


Scalebane:
You seemed anxious to discredit chamber’s final suspicions in [96]. Possibly innocently, or possibly because he and at least 1 other mafia were on that list. The tone of the post does seem to assume chamber is protown. Interestingly, it got chamber to clarify his list twice, finally to {AniX, MeMe, CK}. You do make a twilight post, but don’t mention any of this again. This all could be interpreted several ways- you were satisfied by chamber’s edit, had given up on the possibility of him being protown, or were content that some or all of {DH/Ixnay, Scalebane, STD} were removed.

Wild speculation: You preemptively clarifies how you knew Chess replaced Brizzy because you didn’t want it thought that you knew because they were mafia together and had talked overnight?

And, of course, I *still* don’t like how you went into motivations for killing CK.


STD:

Before I post the next one, we have a possible deadline coming up soon. I have two questions for EmpTyger:

Are you 100% decided that you're going to kill someone?

And can you make a list of at least three or four people you're considering on vigging in order?<snip>

Something theoretically could arise, but I feel there are more than enough targets of suspicion, so yes to vigkilling. Number 1 for me is Chess, but I would rather have consensus on my target. If the town has an alternate preference (or would rather lynch Chess), there are certainly others I could be persuaded to vigkill.


Ixnay:

<snip>And it’s a shame I already have a title. “Extremely Vague” amuses me.

Oooh I take it back. The shame is that I can’t have as my title “Vaguely Amusing”, which would combine that with my current one.

More relevantly, DH’s [63] doesn’t seem like the type of post an antitown would have made. I’m willing to think you innocent.

[EmpTyger]

AniX/Scalebane/Sentinel:
It’s interesting considering my suspicions how you 3 are the ones who aren’t voting with a deadline possibly to be imposed. AniX, as usual, is the worst offender, posting extensively elsewhere online.

[EmpTyger]

I don’t believe Chess and AniX, and think them the best lynch/vig targets. But that’s just me; we need a majority for the lynch, and I’d like one for the vigkill as well. More importantly, what objections does anyone have? In particular, Chess/AniX: you in particular might want to ready your claims with the threat of a deadline. I for one am skeptical of your defenses.


Chess:
You have been having to rely too much on increasingly implausible maneuverings to argue your way out of the contradictions that olio and now I seem to keep finding.

<snip>@emp, I was waiting for someone to catch this.<snip>

You do realize that it’s usually antitowns who wait for the town to spot the errors they make. And antitowns who instead prepare remotely plausible excuses for how they made such a mistake. “waiting for someone to catch this”?


AniX:
I’ve read several times and am just getting more and more astounded by your rationale for voting in [358]. Are you even *trying* to find mafia?


Scalebane:
Sorry about that, was working off the mod’s incorrect votecount.


Sentinel:
Hm. Fair enough, on both issues, I suppose.

[EmpTyger]

Chess:
I won’t speak for olio, but for me, it’s most definitely logical, not a blind charge; in fact, I *had* bought your earlier explanations and said as much in thread. But though your explanations have each time been plausible, there have been too many things for which you’ve had to give plausible explanations for. The suspicions taken together are much greater than any one individually.

You and AniX are most suspicious to me independent of each other. I don’t see how learning one of your alignments would influence my suspicion of the other. If you see how, then do explain.

Also, regarding your claim strategy, do remember that (unlike in my own case regarding a claim) there is also a possibility of you being vigkilled. Make sure that imminent lynch isn’t your only condition for claiming. This isn’t intended as a threat; you should not need to claim until there is consensus from the town.

[EmpTyger]

Clock’s on and the votes are spread rather evenly. I’d be willing to switch my vote to any of {AniX, Scalebane, Sentinel}, though I still like my vote on Chess best.


Sotty:

<snip>The only information I believe (I could be wrong of course) Emp is with holding is his name claim.<snip>

For the record, I’m also withholding my [incorrect] reasons for targeting CK.


Sentinel:

By willfully withholding information, Emp could potentially be creating a situation in which the town will rush into a lynch uninformed.

So don’t speedlynch. It’s a good idea anyhow.
Incidentally, didn’t the town *win* Urban Legends mafia?


STD:

<snip>@Emp

How far are you willing to keep the claim underwraps?<snip>

Less than chamber. I’m doing so because it’s optimal; if it would no longer be, I won’t.

[EmpTyger]

Hm. I don’t have anything to say one way or the other about Chess’s claim, except for the obvious parallel to chamber’s. My number 2 was AniX, but again, I’m not going to vigkill without at least tacit consensus.

[EmpTyger]

Sentinel was my number 3. I don’t have a problem with him over AniX.


Chess:
Sorry, I meant your claim paralleled chamber’s role.

[EmpTyger]

Eeek! I’m terribly sorry, I just realized that the deadline was Monday, not Wednesday. I’m not even sure what exactly counts as midnight Monday, so I do not think I have enough time to get as much consensus as I would like.

My number 1 suspicion is Chess. My next highest suspicion is AniX. As best as I can determine, here is how the town feels between the 2:
Kill Chess: AniX, olio, STD
Kill AniX: Chess, MeMe, Scalebane
?: Ixnay, Sotty, Sentinel (if revealed as innocent)

Please note that Sentinel is at 5 votes, and at lynch-1. I would like to ask that no one yet place a final lynching vote on Sentinel, so as to not end the day prematurely. As of now Sentinel will be deadline lynched anyhow, so there is no worry on that count. But I would like very much to give a final opportunity for thoughts to be given, particularly from AniX, Chess, and Sentinel.

[EmpTyger]

For reference I don't want to kill Anix, I don't know where you got this from.<snip>

I assumed that, given a choice between my vigging AniX or my vigging you, you would prefer the former. Let me know ASAP if I was wrong, because that makes this a lot easier.

[EmpTyger]

I don’t like either Chess or AniX. The town is divided (ambivalent might be a better word). Chess has behaved more suspiciously inthread. But I really don’t like how AniX has lurked both constantly and during his self-alleged strongest hour, especially after my stating that I did not want to vigkill a player who hadn’t a chance to defend themself. I feel knowing Chess’s alignment would be more useful in determining other mafia, however, but since a cop is still likely outstanding, there’s no reason for me to resort to such a drastic measure to test alignment.

Unless something significant occurs in the next few hours before deadline, I think I’m going to have to vigkill AniX.

Now, I am a protown powerrole who most of the town is tending towards believing, who will be all but confirmed if I live through the night, over which I will definitely not be being protected by a doctor. So I have a funny feeling I’m not going to be alive in the morning. Allow me to give some final thoughts:

I’m still nervous about Scalebane, whose suspicions have been eclipsed today. I also don’t like how Sotty has vanished with the spotlight. I’m getting innocent vibes from Ixnay and olio (the latter irrespective of Chess’s alignment, I feel, but ). No strong feelings against the rest, except…

I in the most strongest words instruct the town to examine MeMe with the most intense glare possible. Read through all of her posts, and their context with utmost care. Because if Chess is mafia, I am almost certain she is also.

[EmpTyger]

My analysis tells me to kill AniX. My instincts tell me to kill Chess. Last night, my instinct was to kill AniX, but I let my analysis suade me to CK. I’m not sure which mistake from N1 to correct, and I’m practically out of time.

I wanted to declare my target inthread, but I can’t. I keep going back and forth. Sorry, town. I will think more tonight, but I just cannot decide right now. If anyone has any last minute advice, *please* post it. If not, I’ll make a final reread for inspiration and see what I can find.


Scalebane:

<snip>Not Posting != stalling for the deadline != scumminess.<snip>

Then why are you voting for AniX?


MeMe:

<snip>*note in red I really want answered before nightfall. It's lookin' like a slip.

You’re picking a really bad time to bluff. Had I more time, I’d punish you for it.

[EmpTyger]

MeMe:
Hello Mistress Godfather.

You were bluffing because there would be no consequence in any way if I didn’t answer before nightfall. But now, in case the town has not yet figured it out:

-I’m not going to be doctor protected because the idea was that if I were lying, the real vigilante would kill me overnight. That clearly won’t happen if I’m doctor protected.

-I’m going to vigkill because there are enough good targets. The same reason why I must lynch. You wouldn’t advocate a nolynch in this situation. The same logic holds for consensual vigkilling.

-Total and utter misquote. I did *not* say “determining the other mafia”. What I said (in [415]) was “determining other mafia”. And I have better things to do than direct the cop for you.

-I’m not the cop. You know I’m not the cop. But as for likely investigations:

Town: if MeMe’s not dead tomorrow, ask yourselves why not.

(ie: Cop: do not waste your investigation on her; if she lives, she is the godfather.)

[EmpTyger]

[bah]I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to.[/bah]

[EmpTyger]

<sigh of relief>

Thanks all and mod for the game.

But *ugh* I need to listen to my first instincts more. I wanted to kill AniX both nights but talked myself out of it. And I let myself get distracted from Scalebane after I came forward with my claim.

To explain my nightchoices:
N1 I killed CK partially because he made the slip pointed out inthread, and also the reversal in voting for chamber. But also based on his speculation that chamber was Donnie Darko, and Donnie Darko would be protown. This felt so odd to me, especially being Donnie Darko. However, as I realized afterwards, killing CK in that way was not optimal, as CK’s revelation as roleblocker made clear. For this reason I wanted to come forward D2: because I didn’t want to kill N2 without letting giving my target a chance to defend. This was my first time playing a vigilante, and it at times felt significantly harder than vanilla townsperson or mafia, paradoxically.

N2, while I didn’t think MeMe was most suspicious, I was kind of backed into a corner and figured it could do no harm. If one or both of us were alive the next day without my having tried to kill her- especially if I kill someone else- things could be bad. Moreover, I figured there was a good chance she was a bluffing mafia or unnightkillable godfather. To me, the worst case would be that either she was a lying unnightkillable protown (in which case she’d deserve what would happen) or she was genuinely vanilla, in which case her death, while tragic, would have minimal consequence.

Good job, town, for winning despite me; I managed to do more damage than the mafia that game.