Mini 291: Clue Mafia.....Game Over!

[Mr. Flay]

Vote: The Butler

... wait, that's not how this works, is it?

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote, Vote: BabyJesus

- somebody has to die Day One, or so I've heard.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, now that we've actually got reasons for the votes on me...

Why, exactly, does this strike you folks as a reason to vote? And I'm surprised/horrified at a "Me too" response from MeMe. I'm on record as saying I don't usually randomly vote, so a nonsense vote to show that I was here and listening didn't seem out of place. I actually expected some flak for turning the tables on BabyJesus' "let's run somebody up a rope ASAP" strategy, but this Butler thing? Ludicrious. Have you people actually seen the movie?

In addition, I'll almost guarantee that there's scum on my wagon, because all three came in initially with NO REASON whatsoever for their vote. Elvis later redacted herself to say it was because of the Butler thing, when she could have said that initially. MeMe chimed in with a Me too, and there are at least two possible reasons for BJ's vote, neither of which he gave.

Hell, I could have expected to be run up a rail based on my relationship with the mod or the "lynch-Flay-just-in-case" prosecution, but this? Preposterous. Vote stands until someone can show me a better target for his own methods than BJ.

[Mr. Flay]

For the record, I presumed that that was MeMe's reason for voting you even before it was expounded upon, Flay. Add to that the BJ vote without a stated reason (or, at least, a reason solely justified by my favorite scumtell, the eyeroll smiley), followed by a complaint about votes without stated reasons, and I'm ready to vote for you.

Have you played with BabyJesus before? He favors a "run someone up D1 and get to Night so we can get more information about the lynchers/night actions" strategy, almost to exclusion. Putting him at two votes seemed a valid way of either a) testing his commitment to that strategy or b) getting a reaction from him that could be analyzed. The "eyeroll" was a comment, not a reason.

So now you can read MeMe's mind? Interesting.

So here's the thing, and I've said this before, though not to you. Posts that provide the appearance of contribution to the game without actually providing any actual value are a fair scumtell. It's just an elaborate/covert form of lurking, but one that's done deliberately rather than through apathy, meaning it's actually more likely to indicate scum than standard lurking would be. Joke posts are one type of "appearance of contribution" post, and in the early game when there's little else to go on, they seem a perfectly reasonable place to start.

And in the early game where

half of our players had yet to post

, you considered that a sufficient "tell" to threaten me with another vote? I'm not convinced, but then I wouldn't be, since the bandwagon's on me.

Why, exactly, does this strike you folks as a reason to vote?

Because every time I've seen someone vote for the Mod or some other joke vote, they're scum. Off the top of my head, I remember LyingBrian voted for the Mod in Peanuts mini mafia. He was a traitor. I don't know if that's technically scum, but it's potential scum, and that's good enough for me.

What are they teaching in statistics class these days? One example is sufficient for you to categorize it as "every time"? I'm pleased to have a better target now, so

Unvote: BabyJesus, Vote: elvis_knits

.

A non-verbalized reason isn't the same as a nonexistent reason.

A non-verbalized reason is as good as a non-existent reason for purposes of the game. If it's not said, it can't be acted on, verified, or disproven. Now THAT is a scum tell; but elvis still started this party.

For context I'll refrain from spoiling the ending of the movie, but everyone but bigAl should know why I put that joke vote in. I'm just surprised I was the only one...

[Mr. Flay]

Ummm, Fuldu, I referenced the exact reason I was voting for BJ (his tendency to run someone up Day One). It was a little obscure, I'll grant you, but both elvis and MeMe gave

plain, unreasoned votes

. Why are you saying they were equivalent?

[Mr. Flay]

BTW, why did you vote me when MeMe and I both voted you for the same reason? Did you think I was an easier target?

Because a) you started it, and b) I'm pretty sure MeMe's clever enough not to do that as scum. That may be a bit of WIFOM, but there you go. If she's still alive in the late game, in can come up again, but for right now you're more suspicious in my world. I've played with MeMe before and it appears that like me, she has an easier time arguing her way out of things when she's scum. But I could go either way today, if voting shifts...that whole "I had a reason, I just didn't tell you" thing doesn't sit well with me at all, from either of you.

As for your other question, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your "every time" point. It seemed like you must have had a lot of times in mind to make a claim like that for an opening vote, which is why I was surprised when you only came up with one.

Fuldu: Fair enough; we disagree on what it means to "vote without a reason".

So I'm halfway to a lynch in this smaller-than-usual game. Can we get some more comment from someone besides me and my voters? TSA, Tamuz, bigAl? bamboomancer, further thoughts?

[Mr. Flay]

I've got no problem with kops. BJ is probably just his usual bloodthirsty self, but it's a good role to play as scum in the early game, too... "oops, well, D1 killed a townie, who's next?". In a game that's 2 players smaller than usual, I'm not sure we've got as much latitude for "oops" here.

I'm fairly certain our vigilante(s), if any, can figure out their own targets without help, BJ. Unless you're claiming your favorite role??

Does anyone want to discuss the 'rooms' aspect of this game, in addition to who we will lynch? I'd prefer that it be done out in the open for now, so that scum can get trapped by their lies/choices; later in the game once roles are out, it may become important to have that choice be made secretly.

[Mr. Flay]

Since we've all got free choice to pick any non-murdiferous room (yes, I just made that word up), I'm not sure what benefit the Secret Passages would have. However I'm willing to skip them tonight for the sake of argument.

Fuldu does have a point, though, that the corner rooms may have some benefit/danger that we may want to discover before we get to the endgame. I'd be willing to visit one of those this evening, with some of my (former?) accusers, in the interest of experimentation. If I die, that'll obviously prove my innocence, and the rest of you can derive information from that, including who took me up on it. If I live, I can provide quite a bit of information about that room, enough to clear me, I believe.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not sure what speculation on roles will do, exactly, since in the game/movie anybody COULD have been the killer (scum).

[Mr. Flay]

Oh, it's entirely possible I'll die tonight. I'm not sure I make a good target for the mafia though, because of the bandwagon on me today, and I was extending the offer to my accusers because I think I can alleviate their concerns.

elvis will be sufficient, we don't have to assign everyone a room. I choose the Conservatory, by the way, elvis. Unless you would feel more comfortable picking the room.

[Mr. Flay]

I should clarify that, without trying to Outguess the Mod, I can say with some degree of confidence that she's not likely to give the scum the ability to mass-kill an entire room. In a game this small that would throw the entire balance into disarray, and especially in the endgame when we start getting narrowed on the number of rooms we can choose. I believe her sense of balance is better than that, though I may be wrong in that.

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote: elvis_knits, Revote: BabyJesus

- elvis and I can "talk" tonight. Bj doesn't talk at night, he kills.

[Mr. Flay]

elvis and I can "talk" tonight. Bj doesn't talk at night, he kills.

I don't get this. What do you mean that you and elvis can "talk" tonight? You're obviously not masons or you'd not suspect one another. And scum are people who

do

talk at night, so if BJ doesn't do that...well...

That's an inane analysis of what I said. If I was scum, would I announce it? If we (elvis and I) were masons, would we announce it D1? Obviously "talk" (quotes mine) was an analogy for the fact that I feel I can prove my role/innocence by being in the room with at least one other person tonight.

I am assuming that "talk" is a joke. But it makes me a bit uneasy too. Flay seems to think something will be proven if we pick the same room... but I don't know what that will be, and I don't know how he thinks he knows what that will be.

More than one person in the room is fine, but I feel like if I explain what my role does, it'll increase the chances that I'll either be nightkilled or otherwise thwarted/set-up by the scum.I will neither confirm nor deny that we will be able to talk (as in PMs) tonight.

Tamuz - seriously, what's up? You're following me around the game voting for my people, and what's the "Flay Gaurentee" supposed to be?

[Mr. Flay]

Unofficially

, I think this is where we're at:

Tamuz - 3 (bigAl, BabyJesus, elvis_knits)
BabyJesus - 2 (Mr. Flay, Tamuz)
elvis_knits - 1 (Bamboomancer)

Not voting: MeMe, kops, Fuldu, TSAGod

Except that I'm going to

Unvote: BabyJesus, Vote: Tamuz

to put pressure on the bandwagon (that's 4 of 6 needed, I believe) and because his behavior is more overtly irrational. He also hadn't made any comments about relying on me having some sort of Night Knowledge™ before yesterday. I'd be content lynching either today, though.

MeMe, you asked about why I didn't suspect Tamuz earlier. First of all, his votes have been following mine, so it'd be sort of odd for me to jump down his throat, yes? Also I was more concerned with the bandwagon on me earlier, and the people on it. Now that that seems dealt with for today, I'm looking elsewhere. I honestly have no idea what the "guarantee" was supposed to be, unless he honestly thinks we had a N1, in which case he should be committed, not executed. If I made a List it'd probably be something like:

1. Tamuz/BJ
   
2. elvis_knits/Bamboomancer
   
3. bigAl/MeMe
   
4. TSAGod/kops
   
5. Fuldu/Mr. Flay

Flay's explanation may be reasonable -- but his attitude is, in my opinion, quite defensive.

Flay, please convince me that you haven't simply talked yourself out of the possibility of being lynched today by pretending that you'll be able to prove yourself tonight. I unvoted you because suggesting that we discuss the room aspect seemed more pro- than anti-town to me...but now I'm second-guessing that and wondering if it was simply diversionary.

Okay, here's my POV: Players who can "talk themselves out" of a D1-with-no-preceeding-night lynch are just capable of composing rational defenses and rebuttals. I can't "prove" anything today, but tomorrow I will/should be able to, assuming I live through the night. One reason I voted for BJ originally was that he usually advocates the "run somebody up a pole" D1 approach to get to night, and I'm very curious about the fact that he hasn't in this game, except for a half-hearted attempt at me. Maybe it's a sign of his game maturing, or maybe it's a tell (or maybe he's just busy/uninterested, I suppose). But do "good" players (and I'm not great, but I at least have some skill at logic) usually get killed D1?

I wish I had more time to come in and post here; this is the only game I'm in right now on the site and I can't even make it here every day; it's very different than my older posting style, though I'm glad to see I'm still "Seolic".

Further catchup...

If that's what he's claiming, and he's willing to be lynched when I come up innocent, that's fine.

Who is "he" in this statement, BJ, me or Tamuz? I'm not willing to trade you one-for-one necessarily, although I think you're a better-than-average lynch for D1. Not as good as Tamuz right now, though.

Orbiting's "town or scum" comment might indicate one group, or only a pair of SKs, which would also make sense in a game this size. Obviously we'll know more after a day/night cycle.

[Mr. Flay]

and finally, the list of characters I posted includes my role, which is not one of the major six, which is why I posted it.

Very interesting. I don't think there's going to be any advantage to "not" claiming your true identity in this game, as roles and names are likely divorced (Split Motive), like mathcam sometimes does. There's too much variability in the game setup, and outright lying in the movie, to get much out of that. My name is in the basic setup, however, for whatever that's worth.

I'm not a big fan of the twomz bandwagon right now, but the distinction between mafia

and

SK makes me think there is some knowledge, but its not enough to change my vote...

Tamuz, not Twomz. On the other hand, this might have merit if Tamuz is scum and wanted to set up the possibility of another killing group out there.

Still happy with my vote on Tamuz for today. Glad to see TSAGod show up, and would prefer more interaction from him to replacement, by far.

[Mr. Flay]

Because BJ is now being himself to seem unscummy

QFT.

I'm still glad with my vote/suspicion where they are for now.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not sure MafiaScum has a default time, does it?

Orbiting: Is Tamuz listed first because he reached 3 votes first? What happens in case of a tie?

[Mr. Flay]

Don't be cryptic and don't expect us to do your homework. If you're trying to hide a power role, it's not going to work because scum will have ALL NIGHT to "do their research" and decide whether to kill you. We have less than 48 hours, so anything that'll let us know why it would be a bad idea to kill you would be ON YOU, Tamuz.

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote: Tamuz, Vote: TSAGod

- he's dropped off the radar again, and something's just "funny" there. Also, his claim to not be one of the "main six" roles could be enlightening.

Tamuz, if you live to nightfall, come to the Conservatory with elvis and I. Even a vanilla townie can be proven, at times...

[Mr. Flay]

I could go for bigAl, as well. He seems eager to not be on the Tamuz lynch, and the kops quote does NOT strike me as scummy. "you're as good as dead either way" seems an analysis if the group's willingness to lynch/move votes, not kops' own intentions.

My back-of-the-envelope count says Tamuz and TSAGod are both at 3 now, with kops at 2. Can we get a prod on bamboomancer, too? He hasn't shown up since 3/11, and likewise has 2 posts ever. His initial random vote on elvis still stands, and no one's called him out for it. Odd, but probably not enough to get a lynch today.

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay: are you claiming to have some role that somehow interacts with other people in the same room as you?

Essentially, yes. Part of what I can do has to do with other people in the room with me, which is why I invited my attackers initially to come witness. This would be suicidally stupid if I just had some scummy "nuke the room" ability.

As far as I'm aware, it's not dependent on how many people are in the room, though.

[Mr. Flay]

Also, while this is metagaming I asked Orbiting in person about the deadline and she said the 23rd is correct, now. Sorry, it was just easier to get an answer across the room than asking in thread.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, it IS Day One, but we've all got to go with our guts.

By the way, I think you just saved Tamuz but didn't put actually kops on the block unless someone else changes their vote. TSAGod looks like the leader right now, and I probably won't be back on before the deadline hits (have to go to work offsite in two hours, until well after 7 EST). I'll try and check right before I leave.

[Mr. Flay]

By the way, I think you just admitted to being slightly unhappy that the person you are voting for (TSA) is now going to be lynched.

Not even slightly. I am much more confident in a TSA/Tamuz lynch today than kops. Try reading over

all

of my post; I was more concerned that your change of vote may not have had the obvious effect.

And I'm gone...

[Mr. Flay]

So kops will be back in five days or so? Doesn't seem unreasonable to wait for him...

Unfortunately, nothing occurred in the Conservatory with which I can actually prove my role. However since I made such a hubbub about it yesterday, I'll explain what I can do: I see actions done by others in the room. Therefore if elvis had any night actions (or anyone else who bothered to come here early), I'd have seen what she did, and been able to back her up. Unfortunately from the way it's worded I can't tell if anything is done *to* people in the room (gun-in-a-doorway sort of experience).

My instinct says our kill was blocked last night. It might even have been me, I'm asking the mod for confirmation if blocked actions are still seen. Anyone care to dispute me? Sorry it didn't work quite like I planned...

bigAl, are you saying you moved between two rooms at night? I wonder why I didn't see you come in...

[Mr. Flay]

I'd say not, overall; but if someone wants to try to claim they did something I should have seen, I'm all for it. Will make catching scum that much easier...

[Mr. Flay]

Yesterday's claim...

If I live, I can provide quite a bit of information about that room, enough to clear me, I believe.

...is rather different that what you've supplied today. Also, you seem to contradict yourself here...

I see actions done by others in the room. Therefore if elvis had any night actions (or anyone else who bothered to come here early), I'd have seen what she did, and been able to back her up.

bigAl, are you saying you moved between two rooms at night? I wonder why I didn't see you come in...

You say you see actions -- but then question why you wouldn't have simply seen bigAl (who didn't claim an action even if he HAD been in the room, right?).

I thought bigAl was claiming he'd entered the Conservatory via the secret passage, and since I see actions in the room, it's possible I'd have seen him entering. Looks like a misread, now.

It was my assumption that you were claiming to be able to find out elvis's role or alignment at the

very least

. If I'm to believe your claim, I also have to believe that you deliberately limited your "quite a bit of information" by asking for a private audience with elvis (with belated request for Tamuz to join -- saying that "even a vanilla townie can be proven, at times..." another hint that your role doesn't do what you claim it does) -- but since you made your intention to gather information clear, if she's scum it seems plain that she'd probably have skipped her action...which you should have foreseen rather than declaring that you'd likely be able to get enough info to clear yourself.

Ahem. I wrote:

I'd be willing to visit one of those this evening, with

some of my (former?) accusers

, in the interest of experimentation. ... If I live, I can provide quite a bit of information about that room, enough to clear me, I believe.

and I was extending the offer to

my accusers

because I think I can alleviate their concerns.

elvis will be sufficient, we don't have to assign everyone a room.

Obviously "talk" (quotes mine) was an analogy for the fact that I feel I can prove my role/innocence by being in the room with

at least one other person

tonight.

I am assuming that "talk" is a joke. But it makes me a bit uneasy too. Flay seems to think something will be proven if we pick the same room... but I don't know what that will be, and I don't know how he thinks he knows what that will be.

More than one person in the room is fine

, but I feel like if I explain what my role does, it'll increase the chances that I'll either be nightkilled or otherwise thwarted/set-up by the scum.

(bold added for emphasis)

Where in all of that do you get the impression that I was limiting myself to just one person? Other players were skittish about scum having the ability to mass-kill a room, but for me, the more the merrier. Apparently I overestimated the possibility of power roles in this game.

As for Tamuz, it was my thought that if he was in the room with me, any actions on/by him (wasn't sure at the time whether or not I'd see targeted actions) might help clear him. It's possible that the scum avoided a nightkill entirely, since we (as a group) killed a townie Day One, they can afford to pass on one and still be in pretty good shape. Of course I don't expect a doc to come out and say they protected me, so my position does look pretty tenuous today. Admittedly I'm not on top of my game, by any means.

I'm also confused by the "anyone else who bothered to come here early" phrase. What does that mean?

...what

did

I mean? Oh, right. That should read "anyone else who came to this room at night rather than at dawn" (see daybreak post by Orbiting - we're in the Conservatory now).

And this I know is nitpicky, but once suspicions are raised, I look closely...

My instinct says our kill was blocked last night.

Our

kill?

Am I missing something obvious?

I don't think so, my plan definitely didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I would ask you, however, what sort of bizarre scum scheme this would seem to have been. I'm not saying I haven't played

poorly

, I just don't think I've been playing

scummy

.

The "

our

kill" thing is simply referring to the fact that we have one scum group (attested by the mod), and therefore one obligatory kill at night (excluding any vigilantes, etc). Thus "our" one kill per night for the game.

[Mr. Flay]

I agree; I'd like to hear where people went.

bigAl, like I said to MeMe above, it was sort of a long-shot that either a) I'd see something he did, making him a liar, or b) something would happen to him that I'd see, making him possibly verified (depending on what the action was).

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, it's been confirmed to me that I only see things done by people in the room to me (which also wasn't clear yesterday), but I would see an attempted kill, for example.

Vote: bamboomancer

- I can't really fathom what hiding the room you were in would accomplish. In fact, there's possibly a breaking strategy of us all being in the same room tonight. I would have rather had confirmation that other people knew my role does what it says, but it may be worth a shot. Failing that, bamboo is my best guess.

[Mr. Flay]

Errr, done in the room WITH me, whoever they're done too (I can't figure out how a doc would protect someone in another room, either, but...)

[Mr. Flay]

unless you're relying on something in addition to your role as you've described it, I'd already thought of the all-in-one-room strategy and it doesn't work. Assuming scum can kill from a different room, they

say

they went to the same room as everyone else, make their kill, and then say you didn't see them in the room because they didn't have an action.

Ahh. Good point... idea rescinded. kops, I'm only willing to guess about doc-protect-all roles if we get evidence of a scum-kill-all role. Seems premature for now.

Let's take a different tack. Do we have any thoughts on why there was no kill last night? Scum confusion strategy? Doc protection? Have-to-be-in-the-same-room kill mechanism? I still don't really like Bamboomancer's reticience, but it seems like poor play for a scum to crack that easy on D2...that said, keeping my vote on him for now. I don't have any real investment in whether or not he tells now, since he says he wasn't in the room and therefore I can't validate him one way or the other.

[Mr. Flay]

It's early overall to be outing a bunch of power roles... we could try to play Mafia for a little while....

Right now I'm leaning toward BJ or Bamboomancer, actually. Bj for his slightly odd behavior yesterday, Bamboo for today. But we need more people posting...

[Mr. Flay]

1) Kill in the same room--that means they

probably

pick one person to get a list of who is in the room w/ them or something of the sort, so they would already know who was responsible for blocking them (assuming of course there is a same-room block as well)

It seems that this would be impossible; the scum would first have to wait for all the other night choices in before making any kind of decision, and BJ didn't send a night choice so it's probably not likely.

Wait, why do you categorically believe BabyJesus when he says he didn't make a night choice?

[Mr. Flay]

I'm beginning to think elvis_knits

and

BabyJesus are scum. Why didn't you vote for her there, BJ, if you're pretty sure she's scum?

Unvote: Bamboomancer, Vote: elvis_knits

[Mr. Flay]

I'm starting to be concerned by Flay's attitude towards anyone who agrees with him. He has at least twice immediately turn on another who has the same thought process of him. I'm not really sure how this would work towards scummyness of Flay, because it is more an anti-scum buddy system rather than a scum buddy system manuever and alienates him from the town... but it still concerns me greatly.

Eh? Anyone who's ever been in a game with me as scum knows that I'll sell my partner down the river at the slightest provocation. I try to play the Day as if I was town, on someone's good advice back when I started (forget who right now - 'cam?). I'm "turning on" people (which is different from turning people on, I suspect) because I'm finding their reasons for following my logic less than convincing. Scum are the least likely to put their own ideas forward, IMO, as they can get called on them later when disproven. Jumping on someone else's thought train/bandwagon is safer, because it provides plausible deniability ("don't look at me, it was X's idea! lynch them!").

Happy with a lynch on either elvis or BJ today, though since it looks like BJ just claimed powerlessness, that may be the 'safer' lynch. bamboomancer's still giving me hives, but... where is everybody?

[Mr. Flay]

I'm willing to call his bluff.

Unvote, Vote: BabyJesus

(...waits to join the list of found scum...)

[Mr. Flay]

Note that is four out of five needed (forgot how small this game was for a second). If someone drops the hammer right now and he happens to turn up town, there's gonna be questions need answering...

[Mr. Flay]

Any thoughts from anyone else?

you COULD try and lynch scum today instead of killing the obvious townie...

You could try and give us a reason not to vote you today.

Why didn't you vote elvis earlier when you thought she was scum? Why weren't you paying enough attention to the mechanics of the game? What basis have you had for the people you DO think are scum, so if/when you come up town/scum we can evaluate them based on something more than your voting history, which is fairly scattershot in any game.

As for the room thing, I announced it yesterday and didn't die. But of course that doesn't mean anything, but I *did* allude to having a power role, and that means either scum went somewhere else despite that, or they failed to kill me, or they failed to kill altogether due to some unknown mechanic.

I can see scum totally avoiding the room/rooms I say I might be in if they think that'll avoid them being caught, but there's a possible benefit as well. What if I said I'll be in a room ending in y? Do we think that might balance the odds, or just dilute my benefit and give scum a definite out?

Finally I'm not really a cop, more of a Lassie.

[Mr. Flay]

I can see a point to catalogueing room choices, since it shouldn't (at this point) reveal roles or anything hazardous like that. Of course, mine is already out there, so that's sort of a null comment.

Unvote

for now. Anyone see any downsides to looking at rooms retrospectively, but not revealing future choices? I still don't quite get Bamboomancer's objection...

[Mr. Flay]

I'm fine with not revealing it, I've already done so so it didn't matter to me. The point about the doc being outed makes it not worth it, at least at this stage.

The thing we lose is later, in the endgame, we won't be able to go back and say "aha! but Soandso died in the Ballroom with the knife, why didn't you ______?", but that requires a foolish scum set.

Vote: elvis_knits

, still

FOS: BabyJesus

but I can wait one more day. Can we get a vote count (after the mod gets her caffeine?)

[Mr. Flay]

Earlier posts this Day, kops:

I'm beginning to think elvis_knits

and

BabyJesus are scum. Why didn't you vote for her there, BJ, if you're pretty sure she's scum?

Unvote: Bamboomancer, Vote: elvis_knits

Happy with a lynch on either elvis or BJ today, though since it looks like BJ just claimed powerlessness, that may be the 'safer' lynch. bamboomancer's still giving me hives, but... where is everybody?

I didn't like the way elvis threw her vote on BJ, and then he didn't vote her back. He's voted everyone else at the slightest provocation... I don't really think either one is particularly scummier than the other, but BJ

has

claimed.

[Mr. Flay]

At this point I could get behind an elvis, bamboo, BJ, or kops lynch, roughly in that order. There's not enough new information to really change my opinion...we're spinning our wheels here. Not good on D2.

[Mr. Flay]

Ergh. elvis, my gut instinct says you're both scum, actually, but the more you post the more I want to lynch you first. The fact that BJ just jumped off of your wagon onto bigAl of all people isn't helping alleviate my concerns, but right now I think you're the vote leader.

[Mr. Flay]

You're not being very specific about what you feel is scummy about me.

I really didn't have a lot that hadn't already been said, either by myself or someone else.

So besides the dedication, what's the justification for your bigAl vote, elvis? Voting with BJ is less scummy-seeming?

[Mr. Flay]

Could you waffle any more on that opinion, elvis??

Happier than ever with where my vote is. I think elvis is scum, scum, scum, though no longer sure with whom.

[Mr. Flay]

Hmm, interesting. I'd thought our votes were more balanced than that, between elvis and Bamboo.

Tamuz, where you at? What do you think of all of this?

[Mr. Flay]

Still not sure if I totally believe Flay's claim.

That's fine; I don't expect to be "cleared" today, considering my cunning plan backfired.

Howeevr since I am "out" about my role, shall I announce where I go tonight, or just lie in wait somewhere for scum? I'm leaning toward the latter...

[Mr. Flay]

Hmmm, why the unvote, elvis?

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote: elvis_knits, Vote: Baby Jesus

- there's no reason to auto-lynch a claimed doc in a mini game. If he survives the night, then we can start asking more questions.

Bamboo, are you saying that your action prevents damage by anyone who is in your same room, or to those in the same room? That'll affect what I want to do next... and you STILL haven't said what room you were in.

[Mr. Flay]

There is absolutely

no reason

to lynch a claimed doc over a claimed townie

in a game where docs can be confirmed

. Anyone who is still on the Bamboowagon is suspect.

And if you think this makes Bamboo and I co-conspirators, think about what a foolish idea it would be to create a false alliance like this on Day Two. We'd be signing our own death warrants.

[Mr. Flay]

Perhaps because my role can see what people do???

[Mr. Flay]

Perhaps because my role can see what people do???

and that's supposed to mean something to me? not to mention a) would not catch a scum doctor, and b) would tend to limit a doc's ability anyway if he has to hang around you.

.) it means more than your claim of being confirmed because you "read your PM again".
a) We've seen no evidence of the need for a scum doctor yet, so this is pissing in the wind.
b) I'm not saying he has to hang around me, anyway (this is also for Fuldu). We're going togradually decrease the number of rooms available to us, and eventually Bamboo and I will be in the same room, or one of us will be dead. I see no reason to do the mafia's work for them by lynching claimed docs the day they claim. We're probably better off randomizing rooms right now, since both of us would provide a roadblock to scum, provided our roles work as advertised.
c) That being said, I'm not sure why Bamboo would be untargetable. Blanket room-protection for others and self seems overpowered, but we don't know yet how scum kill. This is the only thing that makes me reluctant to believe Bamboo, but it's worth waiting at least a day, IMO.

[Mr. Flay]

Seems doubtful to me too, which means either a) he's lying, or b) mafia have a different kill mechanism than (this) protective role.

[Mr. Flay]

I'd also like to see a vote count before I decide whether to switch votes. Is there a reduced total needed for lynch at deadline?

However, I meta-know that Orbiting just started a new job which is actually keeping her busier during the day, so it might be several hours before she's back.

Currently I'd support a lynch of BJ, Tamuz, or elvis, I think...

[Mr. Flay]

Well then. Less than a day and a half to go; are you all comfortable defaulting to lynching a claimed doc? I've already said who I'd prefer, and my vote's there, but without discussion, nothing will change...

[Mr. Flay]

BJ, in case you ende up dead, I want to make sure I understand your elite scum-finding skills correctly...

Unvote, Vote: BabyJesus

- somebody has to die Day One, or so I've heard.

unvote, vote flay

BJ is NOT playing the way he usually does. I'm pretty sure he is scum. .

Because I didn;t post in this game for a bit I'm scum?

unvote, vote Tamuz

Talk about a reach. Seriously.

unvote, vote kops

pretty sure he's scum

vote babyjesus

trying for the easy lynch, huh? pretty sure elvis is scum here.

pretty sure Fuldu is scum here....

unvote, vote bigAl

pretty sure he's scum.

I'm betting EK and Bamboomancer are scum buddies. I'd be happy to lynch either one.

So we've decided to accept the unhelpful, no comment vote happy style that BJ plays but mine is just completely worthless to everyone, despite still trying to make clear and concise opinions?

sounds like bitter scum to me....

I thought I unvoted

unvote: Bamboomancer vote: BJ

pretty sure Tamuz is scum here. I'd suggest our vig deal with him tonight...

So everyone is scum except...*checks* MeMe? And maybe Fuldu, since you seemed to be joking there. This isn't really helpful if you ARE town, and if you're scum, you've provided adequate noise to cover much of any tell, since MeMe rarely shows up on scumdar D1/D2 anyway...

[Mr. Flay]

No information revealed last night, either. I'm pretty sure there's some WIFOM going on on from the scum here, most specifically elvis in my mind since she came right out of the gate after me. I'm really pissed about the BJ thing yesterday, if my last post didn't make that clear enough. His playstyle irritates me to no end, and has helped bring us to a probable lynch-or-lose.

Elvis is still rubbing me the wrong way, but we may be at the point of a full claim. I can start if need be to help my own case, but I submit to the will of the group.

No damn voting

yet!

[Mr. Flay]

Actually, me claiming room early would be fairly stupid, because I could disprove people who said they did actions from the room I was in.

I actually meant I could claim my role name.

[Mr. Flay]

He's got no role, Tamuz. He's stated as being a townie, so the thesis must be just flavor text (unless we have a truly Bastard Mod).

I'm more interested in room claims than name claims, for the reasons listed above. Shall we randomize, and do each night separately, or all at once?

[Mr. Flay]

D1: Conservatory, as previously mentioned.
D2 (although I think this is ill-advised): The Hall

[Mr. Flay]

I really thought the numbers meant something else, but - elvis, you're up. Whatcha got to tell us?

[Mr. Flay]

OMG FLAY...

Newbie 225... MeMe is Mod... this guy is dead scum:

Vote: Meme for not giving us a deadline

I unvoted because maybe there's someone who acts more like a scummie.

What on earth are you talking about? Seriously; you're claiming I'm scum here because of Newbie 225?

[Mr. Flay]

I can agree with everything EmpTyger wrote. If Tamuz tries to claim mod error (letting him pick a room that wasn't available), maybe she'll be kind enough to confirm for him. Or not...

[Mr. Flay]

And you failed to mention that you picked an unpickable room when you were claiming too?

Tyger's plan seems pretty good.

Vote: Tamuz

Regarding elvis' post 468, she was pointing another case where people who vote the mod or other non-playing people are often scum, as Flay did to start off the game.

FOS: bigAl

for "getting" elvis' insinuation (spurious as it was). This strikes me as the sort of thing that could have been discussed last night, but it's not enough for me to vote either right now.

Waiting to hear from Orbiting before voting, but the Tamuz thing is just off...

[Mr. Flay]

Tonight
{Bamboo, Flay, kops, Tyger} stay in one room. (I’m arbitrarily picking the Library)
{bigAl, elvis} stay in a second room. (I’m arbitrarily picking the Hall)
I am thinking secret passages are immaterial, but we may as well play this safe and choose rooms from among {Library, Hall, Dining Room}.

So if we still believe bamboo is the doc, this'll protect the bulk of the "more trusted" players, is that where you're going with this, ET?

[Mr. Flay]

Right, then. Besides elvis, anyone else have a problem with EmpTyger's plan? By putting me and the doc in the same room, it maximizes the chances we'll both be sorted out tomorrow, I think.

[Mr. Flay]

Sure. Unless the doc has efficacy problems with more people in the room. Or is lying and we're all about to die anyway. Or you've got some global kill power hidden in your knitting needless,

Miss

Pink

.

I don't care, really, where you go. I think EmpTyger was putting the scummiest-seeming people outside the room, so that if anyone dies, it'll likely be from that group and help us narrow things down. Of course if you come out with a night action I can see this time, it'll be a little funny after N1....

[Mr. Flay]

I'm fine with either Tamuz or elvis at this point, but the inertia is clearly leaning toward

Vote: Tamuz

.

[Mr. Flay]

No one is pressuring you to hammer; if there's still discussion to be had, let's have it.

Your non-hammer on Tamuz is in fact noted, in case he comes up town it would be a strong point in your favor.

[Mr. Flay]

My only concern is why Bamboomancer (our claimed doc) is still alive. But I'm wondering if that's just WIFOM (I've done it before as scum - he's still alive, ergo he must be scum). They're in a pretty good position, since we've yet to nail any of them yet, that it worries me. But I still think Tamuz has been caught out. If it was possible to switch the bandwagon to elvis, I would, but I suspect we're past that.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay:
Yes or no only: do you feel you have a reason to want to lynch elvis over Tamuz today?

No; they're equal candidates for me.

For the record, I'll be almost completely absent from the site until Saturday afternoon - our big conference I've been going crazy preparing for starts this afternoon.

[Mr. Flay]

Indeed; while not everyone may have followed the plan this time, it was enough for me to finally get results.

Sorry, Bamboo, for doubting you; but I don't believe you died in vain.

[Mr. Flay]

well would you like to share.... ?

Actually, not yet. If I was to come out and say, "X did it", any other scum would be free to jump on with impunity (and I believe we have two left, based on a reread of the thread). With the doc dead, I'm unlikely to live through tonight, so today has to count for as much as possible for me. I should point out that a pro-town player would likely have been thinking this way already, kops.

That said, if it's the will of the group that I reveal early, I will. I'd prefer to first hear what night actions, if any, people are willing to claim happened in the Library. Maybe not even specifics yet, but "I took an action" or not might help. Interestingly, now that I've got information I've also got at least one person's role name (their color), so NO ONE else should reveal their color as yet. This may help me prove I'm not lying, later; I can go first with respect to colors to show I'm not just guessing, but I'd rather wait to reveal what I saw.

[Mr. Flay]

Yes, but did either of you do anything there??

[Mr. Flay]

First of all, I'm Miss Scarlet. Let's get that color out of the way right off, so that I can show you I'm not guessing when I say I saw

Mr. Green

kill Bamboomancer

last night. And furthermore that

kops is Mr Green!

I believe now the rest of you should claim colors, although I want kops to go last for obvious reasons. If he tries to pre-empt this, consider why he might do that.

EmpTyger, I'm not entirely clear on your vigilante kill mechanism, but it sounds like you're not either. I can tell you that as far as I know, you didn't attempt to kill anyone last night. I get all "actions" in the room I'm in, and any attempts even if they don't succeed, according to the Mod. I'm not going to speculate more about your role, though I'm curious why you couldn't give us your room choices yesterday when everyone else did. More on that later.

As for your four possibilities, the only one that is important to me to disprove is D. (C happened to be true as well, but only insofar as I didn't expect to get a color name). One of two things would have to be true:
D1) Tamuz and I were in a 3-man scum group. This means we're still at lynch or lose (3 Town vs. 2 Scum) but I just gave you my other co-conspirator's name. Otherwise how would I know who Mr. Green is, if he's a townie? So I'm purposefully throwing my remaining partner under the wheels today in hopes of a win tomorrow/tonight? Colorclaims should prove this false, unless his partner wants to claim Green, of course...
D2) Tamuz and I were a 2-man scum group. In which case my cause is hopeless because I'll be lynched tomorrow when kops shows up pro-town, so I'd be better off arguing that my ability doesn't work at all, rather than staking my life on a bad lynch based on a false ability. Which still wouldn't explain why I know what kops' rolename/color is.

In turn, I see two possibilities:
E1) Tamuz and kops are the scum, full stop. If so, it'll become evident once we lynch kops; otherwise we failsafe to...
E2) Tamuz was in a three-man scum group, with kops and one other person. This seems extremely likely, because kops himself mentions in post #437 that we're "likely at 4-3, maybe at 5-2". This means there's one more person out there to catch; I wasn't sure it would work to hold off claiming, but let's get all our cards on the table now. I've got seven colors and seven alignments at this point, and while I understand that two of them are only PROVEN true from my end, I hope the remaining two townspersons will see the truth of it. I did a full voting analysis of the entire game, which I can post if you really want.

First of all, voting records show that Tamuz only actually voted for 3 people the entire game: BabyJesus on D1 & D2, bamboomancer on D2 right before he claimed, and MeMe on D1, saying he found her reason-not-given vote on me to be scummier than elvis_knits'. He's not been shown to vote for any known scum. On the other hand, he was voted for by bigAl, BabyJesus, elvis_knits, Mr. Flay (4 of 6 needed!), TSAGod (again 4 of 6 needed), and BabyJesus (5 of 6, we almost had him!) on D1. No one voted for him D2 at ALL, and D3, EmpTyger/MeMe led the charge based on his room claim, followed by bigAl, myself, and Bamboomancer. Both kops and elvis claimed to want to vote Tamuz that day, but we'd decided to let Bamboo hammer him.

From my perspective, I can see that kops had a similar voting record: MeMe on D1 (explicitly random, he says), then TSAGod, myself, back to TSAGod. He threatened to hammer Tamuz D1 when Tamuz was at 5/6, but didn't. D2 he only voted once, saying he could see the argument against elvis_knits now. Didn't vote D3, but says he suspected elvis over Tamuz early on, he's the only other player besides Tamuz to "blink" when EmpTyger calls out Tamuz' weird room choice. Why is HE asking for clarification? However late in D3 kops says he suspects elvis and Tamuz, but Tamuz "somewhat more". D4 he goes on that weird "elvis_knits is probably the scumbuddy of whoever Flay saw" thing right after I said I had results, which looks like it could be false association to me.

1st possibility:

MeMe/EmpTyger is the 3rd scum. For this to be true, EmpTyger would have had to sell out Tamuz yesterday during room claims, and push for his lynch REPEATEDLY D3 when he could have shifted with elvis' doubts and gone directly for the win. I'm leaning heavily against this possibility right now, although the Vigilante claim is awfully convenient for scum. What more can you tell us about this "confusing mechanic" without quoting your role PM, EmpTyger? The only globally proven power role worked on the room he was in (Bamboomancer), and mine works that way. Scum's may work that way, since I saw the kill last night and I don't think they'd have done it from the room I was in if they could possibly avoid it, since scum know I'm pro-town, and thus not lying.

2nd possibility:

bigAl is the 3rd scum. His voting record has been all over the place, including Tamuz and kops both on D1 (as well as TSAGod, who he later unvoted). D2 he voted for BJ, elvis, bamboomancer, and then back to BJ for the deadline lynch, on 5/2. He says he forgot to unvote Bamboomancer after he claimed doc, which might be true. Only BJ and elvis_knits voted for him ever, both on D2, but that doesn't tell me much. I actually thought bigAl was DEAD because I saw so few posts from him... but in his defense, he did put the first solid vote on Tamuz after EmpTyger's roomclaim catch, and stuck with it throughout D3.

3rd possibility:

elvis_knits is the 3rd scum. I've been on her case since D1, but that doesn't prove anything. A weird thing happened on D2; she switched her vote to MeMe hours before the deadline on 5/3, despite the fact that BJ's lynch was nearly a

fait accompli

(and yes, I was on BJ's lynch, and yes, elvis yelled at me for it the next day). The weird thing here is the only other two people to vote for MeMe the entire game were... Tamuz and kops (both on D1)! That's circumstantial at best, of course, but it is weird.
She also saved Tamuz and put TSAGod on the chopping block for D1's deadline - by switching her vote to kops, of all things! This really weirded me out at the time and I did mention it, but it looks really scummy in hindsight knowing more alignments now. Oddly, elvis says early on D2 that she "wants to lynch kops, just like yesterday", but never votes him that entire Day (or ever since D1, for that matter). She also voted for Tamuz on D1, but that's a small point of scumminess at best, as we had him up to 5 of 6 votes needed at one point... In her defense, scum could have been manipulating her feuds with myself, MeMe, and BJ, but I consider that doubtful...she looks like the best lynch right now, but I want EmpTyger's eyes on it as well.

Hopefully that answers your questions, ET.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay:
I don’t understand the “obvious reasons” for kops claiming last, and am very leery of your push to have colors claimed out. Your role has changed *again*. This color business comes forward just when it would be most convenient for you if you were mafia.

The color business came from the mod; I didn't expect it, but it did give me additional leverage against kops.

Your scattershot “everyone else is suspicious and potentially mafia” feels like an attempt to score a misvote in a lynch-or-lose scenario.

I don't understand this. I'm saying outright that kops should be today's lynch. If you think that's aiming for a mislynch, say so. If I'm scum and kops is town and I get him lynched, you can vigilante me tonight, right? Except that it's not true, of course; I saw him shoot Bamboomancer!

For all your bluster about being the most likely to die tonight - I don’t see how on earth you’d *not* live through the night. Temporarily assuming you’re innocent: if you die, then kops’s lynch becomes automatic, and the mafia automatically loses. Rather, I think it is certain that *I* will die overnight: it will be either bigAl or myself, and I have caught out at least as many mafia as you, and there is a chance that my vigilante ability could steal a draw.

Who are you thinking is the lynch for today? elvis? I've got eyewitness evidence on kops, why are you pushing for a "possible" lynch (unless you're claiming some sort of investigative ability, you're going on deduction vs. my witnessing), rather than the sure thing? I must be missing something, or YOU are the one playing for the mislynch.

If you die tonight, we lose a vigilante who may or may not be able to trigger their ability. If I die, we lose the ability to see who kills (you). Scum have two good options at this point, but if we lynch kops and he comes up scum, I think I look like the more solid NK. More on that when we talk about rooms.

But the point is, tomorrow 7 roles will be known from death, and whoever is kingmaking will clearly know the 8th. So, temporarily assuming you are innocent and kops is guilty: I don’t see the potential advantage of your color claiming plan.

I will claim Green/not-Green status, so if that is all you are looking for:

I am not Mr. Green

.

Fine. That's all I wanted, was to prove kops' color, as I saw him do the deed. I don't care about the rest of the colors, frankly, just wanted to show I wasn't guessing/lying.

<snip>I'm curious why you couldn't give us your room choices yesterday when everyone else did."<snip>

It wasn’t that I *couldn’t*; it was that I saw no reason to, and had a reason to not. Tamuz was the lynch. Temporally, it didn’t matter whether I claimed first today or last yesterday; the only thing that might happen between them to prevent my claiming would be my death. And at first I didn’t want anything to be assumed about elvis Night 2 if I were to die and be revealed as a vigilante, because I myself couldn’t be sure about what had happened. Later, when I no longer had worry that elvis would be a mislynch, I nearly did claim- but realized that because it seemed so important to elvis that I do, it probably was worth doing the opposite.

I honestly don't see this. Where is your ironclad conviction that elvis is scum coming from? I'm not saying I disagree; I DO find her scummiest right now, but your certainty is bizarre. And what are you saying about N2?

So:
- EmpTyger says that Elvis is guilty
- Mr. Flay says that kops is guilty
- Mr. Flay says that EmpTyger is likely telling the truth.

Assuming that there are two scum left, they must be one of (EmpTyger or Elvis) and one of (Mr. Flay and kops). Does that clear me, or have I not thought this out?

No, that seems reasonable. But (from my perspective) if EmpTyger is lying about elvis, and wants to lynch her today, we could lose (like I said, confused/incompetent vigilante is one of the easiest scum claims). So I'd obviously rather lynch kops today, and see which one of EmpTyger, myself, or bigAl dies tonight. I can't imagine they'd kill you bigAl, but we DID just seem to clear you....

I want to hear from both of the others before we even begin to vote, however. And the room thing depends wholly on who we lynch; I'd still like to figure out the apparent confusion about EmpTyger's role and how it's triggered. That's the largest source of my doubt; there was NO ambiguity about how my role works in my role PM.

(I’m not sure what triggered the Day 2 lynch sealing off the Conservatory, and the dawnscene doesn’t really say which room we’re in, so it is theoretically possible that a room could be lost at lynch. So just in case that does happen: if we lose any room other than the Hall, the above doesn’t change. If we lose the Hall, replace “Hall” with “Dining Room”.)

Rooms seem to get sealed off when there's a dead body there at nightfall; it doesn't prevent us from gathering there at Day, but it does preclude any further night stays there. Thus D1 we were IN the Ballroom, where Boddy "died" N0, then we couldn't pick it that night, leaving TSAGod's body there too. D2 we killed BJ in the Conservatory (I don't know why we gathered there, presumably that's where the most number of nightchoices ended up). D3 we found Fuldu in the Billiard Room, and lynched Tamuz there. Today we're in the Library, but won't be able to choose it tonight (I'm assuming, since Orbiting has already taken it off the list of available rooms). I have no idea what would happen if there were two nightkills in two different rooms; I don't think it matters much at this point.

[Mr. Flay]

I've got to think about this a bit more; with a Vigilante, No Lynch may become viable here, if you're 100% certain somehow about elvis. It essentially pushes the lynch into the night phase. On the other hand, if we lynch kops, you can either vig me (if he's town, improbably), or elvis, right? Or are you that uncertain about your ability to trigger it???

That just baffles me. Please elaborate, EmpTyger; we don't have any room to guess wrong.

[Mr. Flay]

Sure, without hearing from elvis and kops we're likely to go in circles.

[Mr. Flay]

Rev. Green; I paraphrased earlier.

[Mr. Flay]

I am vanilla. I'm really not sure how Flay know's my color, but I'm guessing that he has an additional scum ability to find out people's colors/role names at night.

And what possible game advantage would that have for scum in a game where scum roles appear to be randomized through the color names? It's not all females; all men; all dark colors; it seems to be totally random, so as we've said MANY times in this game, what advantage would there be to lying about your color? Conversely, why would this be a scum ability? It just doesn't make sense, but that's because you're grasping at straws.

I don't know exactly how lassies work, never having been one, but wouldn't they spot a scum going out to talk to his partners at night? I can't see how someone who can apparently see people's roles would miss this happening. Clearly if he were really telling the truth, he would have seen me then, instead of claiming to have seen nothing.

Incorrect. I see "what happens in a room", not people's roles

per se

. I have reason to believe that non-physical actions don't get reported to me; I didn't see anything from Bamboomancer last night either, as his role seemed to be entirely passive (the "shame" of killing someone in front of the socialite). I asked the mod about this and she wouldn't give me any more than that.

While it is possible for Mr. Flay to have guessed correctly (if he was scum, he would only have two or three choices to choose from, and fairly easy to realise that kops was fishing for the Reverend part of the name), I doubt he is making up his ability to see people's colour.

Except that I said he was Green

before

kops started asking about the Rev./Mr. part (which was a mistake on my part, should have read my PM again during that superlong post). As far as I can tell, before I named myself and kops, elvis_knits was the only one currently alive to claim a color. Therefore to be making it up I'd have had to discern correctly which of {{EmpTyger, bigAl, kops}} was Green. Only 33% odds at best, and a big risk if wrong.

I think that trackers often only see night

actions

, so if you weren't the one to send in the kill, you might not show up.

I'm pretty sure this is why I didn't see anything before EmpTyger's plan of last night. With elvis and kops the only two outside of the room with the claimed Doctor according to the plan, and assuming scum believed me when I described my ability (which I did WAY too early in this game, *sigh*), their only option was to kill someone in the same room as me. They'd avoided doing this so far, which is why I never saw anything; this also lends credence to the elvis_knits-kops-Tamuz scum group, although they (kops-Empmay have been desperate enough to kill Bamboomancer to trade him 1-for-1.

But I'd like to hear from elvis before preceeding much more.

QFT. I also want to hear from EmpTyger about his vigilante role, still.

[Mr. Flay]

although they (kops-Empmay have been desperate enough to kill Bamboomancer to trade him 1-for-1.

Sorry, that should read:

although they (kops-EmpTyger, assuming the other possibility) may have been desperate enough to kill Bamboomancer to trade him 1-for-1. That requiers EmpTyger to have set up a room assignment that would lead to sacrificing his partner today though...

[Mr. Flay]

Bloody hell. If we have to replace elvis *now*....

[Mr. Flay]

I still think the color thing is a red herring, because there's no reason for me to lie about my own color (Scarlet). All I'd have had to do was figure out what kops was, but it's still a stupid risk for small benefit if I'm wrong.

The plan had elvis and *bigAl* outside the room.

Erk. Right; lemme think about that for a bit.

The only reason I'm asking about your ability, EmpTyger, is that I think the play for the night is to put all of us in the same room, and you don't use your kill. If I survive, I should be able to see who the remaining scum is when they kill. If you survive, then you still have your vigging ability and can secure a draw by crosskilling the final night even if the D5 lynch is wrong. Unless you're scum... I suppose if you're scum AND you hold off on your kill to avoid me seeing you, then we're back at the same position tomorrow except we'll know my alignment via kops' death.

Am I missing anything? Probably, it's still early in the morning here...

[Mr. Flay]

The last couple pages are most crucial; you can back up and read older suspicions at your leisure, but right now you seem to be directly accused by EmpTyger of being scum, and you're high on my list. I've said that I saw kops kill last night, and kops has claimed townie. bigAl.... well, I'll let him explain himself soon, since it's sort of complex and I don't want to put words in his mouth.

No one has voted yet, but partly that was because we were waiting on elvis. Pay special attention to what roles do, as they're non-standard in this game.

[Mr. Flay]

Vote: kops

as the sure thing from my perspective; plus, I don't want to put MC one away in this situation without hearing more from bigAl and others.

However, Masterchief's contributions thus far have not alleviated any of my earlier concerns about elvis. Sucks to replace in for one of the scummiest players left, but I've been there before.

[Mr. Flay]

And given kops' panicked simulpost, I'm almost sure we're both right, ET....

[Mr. Flay]

Unvote: kops, Vote: Masterchief

- known scum is defending suspected scum at (probable) lynch-or-lose, with the lame excuse of "well I know you were right last time, but..."

[Mr. Flay]

I can't believe that worked. Sorry elvis/MC, the only way I could actually use my one-shot and be sure of the result was to lynch the suspected scum and shoot the known killer. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader as to where Miss Scarlet might keep a derringer... Yes this is ANOTHER expansion on my role, but hear me out.

I am 99% sure that EmpTyger is our scum, based on the end result of yesterday's lynch and the night's actions. EmpTyger is NOT our vigilante, whatever he says, because I can describe why we ended up here. His "inability" to describe how his role works, and continued evasion on actually explaining things for the last two days, is the clincher for me. Furthermore I believe kops' thanking me and ONLY me (instead of me and ET) should prove it to bigAl, who I believe is the remaining townie like we deduced yesterday.

kops (scum) is dead. I'm alive. That more-or-less resolves that pair.
elvis (town) is dead. EmpTyger is alive. Need I say more?

I'll explain more about my role if needed, but I want to hear EmpTyger commit to his kill method before I do. No vote for that reason and that reason alone, yet.

[Mr. Flay]

So are you saying you didn't kill kops? Remember that you just said you couldn't decide which of us was guilty....

[Mr. Flay]

There's a lot of ghosts in this mansion...

Flay:
So... that brings your claim total to nighttalker/cop/Lassie/colorinvestigator/oneshotvig. (btw No need to stop there; you still can add something to explain how you stopped last night's nightkill!)

Still waiting for a definite answer from EmpTyger about last night's kill, but in the meantime I can extricate the truth from the lies in this statement:

Nighttalker:

elvis and I can "talk" tonight.

Note the quotes; I didn't mean it literally, I was building on elvis' "It's a date, Flay.", and on my own role as a femme fatale. Strange that the only person who really was suspicious of it was...your predecessor, MeMe.

Cop:
I never claimed this; in fact I said so back in April. What I *did* say was that I was pretty sure my role could prove MY innocence. At the time I thought I could clear Tamuz, I wasn't sure what my night results would be, so I thought perhaps I'd see someone try to act on him, and have an answer that way.

Lassie: true.

Colorinvestigator: This wasn't described in my role PM, just came up when I finally saw something. Since I was *right* about kops, how does this incriminate me? Please explain what you find suspicious/pro-scum about this ability?

One-shot vigilante:
Well, as you yourself said yesterday, it wouldn't make much sense to telegraph to the scum that I had a derringer in my garter, would it? Only I think I can prove my claim, unlikely as it is, and you...haven't.

Looking back on EmpTyger's room assignments, he put two scum and two town (from my perspective) {Bamboo, Flay, kops, Tyger} in the Library, and two townies {bigAl, elvis} in a second room. Maybe they have to outnumber/equal the townies in a room in order to get their kill through? Would make sense with respect to having three scum in a game of 10, it hampers them somewhat.

Then last night his proposal (which didn't work, obviously) was to put me in a room with kops (now known scum), and himself and bigAl in separate rooms. He was all-fired up to kill elvis that day despite my claim of evidence, and that would have put me in a room with a single scum by ourselves. That should have ended it with a town loss, if it had worked.

That's pretty much what I've got. If ET somehow DOESN'T claim his vigilante action worked last night, then you have to work under the assumption that I took out my partner, at night, in order to get to a three-man endgame where I'm relying on votes going my way. That stretches incredulity just a

bit

, for me anyway...

[Mr. Flay]

Thanks, that's all I needed to know that I wasn't getting scammed by bigAl (seemed really unlikely, but...).

Vote: EmpTyger

Now, here's what

actually

happened last night, and why I am guessing that it prevented a nightkill: My one-shot doesn't deal with a room, but with a particular person. Unlike previous nights where I chose a room to observe, last night I sent in a choice to kill kops. Presumably that's why we're in the hallway, and potentially why he never got make his kill. Maybe he was chosen to make the kill because he'd effectively "outed" himself with his last post of the day, and thus was likely to be lynched today anyway if the game continued? I don't know specifics of the scum's kill method, but that's my explanation for why we're in the "hallway" outside of the rooms proper.

EmpTyger, my tendency to "cut loose" a fellow scum is limited to situations where it's not suicidal; again I ask you, what possible purpose would there be to me killing my own partner last night when we were at 2-2?

As stated below to bigAl, remember when you tried to accuse me by stating that “there was NO ambiguity about how [your] role works in [your] role PM”?

And there wasn't. I can't quote you what it says directly, of course, but the way in which it's

activated

were totally clear. What it does, took a little longer to decipher...

*Yesterday* I couldn’t decide which of you were guilty. At twilight- when you 2 speedlynched Masterchief and he was revealed as an innocent- I kind of got a slight sneaking suspicion that just maybe you 2 might somehow be mafia together. But, as I said above, kops’s death wasn’t caused by my thinking him guilty.

So when, exactly, did you decide it was both me and kops? When I accused you today? This still sounds like hedging your bets, and I still haven't heard a good explanation for why you wanted to lynch elvis over kops yesterday.

Moreover, let’s consider the cop ability. Temporarily assume Flay’s telling the truth. As I pointed out, he’s allegedly claimed “there was NO ambiguity about how my role works in my role PM.” (ignore for now the fact that he admits that he was not expecting the color). So he gets no result from vanillas (N1) and also no result from Bamboo’s doctor ability (N3). If he’s telling the truth, I’m guilty and thus don’t have my vigilante ability. So the only results he’d be able to get are mafia nightkills. (And any ability that you might be hinting at in [586], but honestly I’m skeptical.) First of all, this ability seems rather useless, since it seems that most of the time the cop would be able to see anything, it would be his own death! But most importantly, if Flay did have this ability, why would he try to set up a scenario where he’d be with only elvis?

Are you claiming to understand how the scum kills work now? Because I don't; my "equal numbers" supposition earlier was merely that; supposition. I did, indeed, initially expect many more power roles that I'd be able to confirm. That's the ONLY reason I came out on D1 with what my role did, and invited as many of my accusers as wanted to join me (not just elvis, as you continue to assert falsely) in the same room.

Your "Day 4" scenario above is false on the face of it, because you're presuming that I had "equal suspicions" on everyone left alive (besides kops). I clearly said what my full suspicions were, and have at every point of the game, I believe. You, on the other hand, have failed to answer numerous questions at the ideal times, with your constant "well I'll have to rethink this", "well I changed my mind", "well maybe I shouldn't reveal that today" the last few days.

You are right about one thing, though; bigAl is now confirmed by virtue of not lynching me. It's all up to him, now, unless he has further questions for us.

[Mr. Flay]

You played a very good game, EmpTyger; I had my doubts right up until the final night. All of you did.

My only question is, why did you guys cut Tamuz loose D3? We were getting our asses kicked up until that point...

I'll go poke Orb and tell her we finally made a decision....

[Mr. Flay]

Holy crap, we survived! That was an intense game....I was sure on about 9237 occasions that I was going to get lynched/nightkilled, and somehow I never did. I played so poorly at first...

I actually kept expecting EMpTyger to use kops' D4 closing speech against me; another way it could have been interpreted that I didn't mention for OBVIOUS reasons was "Thanks Flay for being such a competent and helpful scum partner!" I'm not sure how I could have responded to that WIFOM logic.

The game was a lot of fun to be in/observe the special details of; it'll help with some future ideas Orb and I are planning for games now that she's got one under her belt.

It was actually really hard to figure out how to use my role, because even if I ever did discover that someone was scum, to use my nightkill meant giving up my observational ability that night, which could have really bit me in the ass if someone had caught on to that at the wrong moment.

For a long time I couldn't figure out how 3 scum in 10 players would be balanced... now I see some of why. So did scum miss their kill N1, or did Bamboo do something?

[Mr. Flay]

*grin* True enough, that was one in a line of mistakes I made (many of which centered around trusting EmpTyger). I had an inkling about MeMe being "off" in the early game but lost track of it later until my final rereads, when I realized EmpTyger and MeMe were the same character.

Orb: I'm glad you didn't delete/edit kops' posts. It's his responsibility to keep unwanted information out of them, not yours as mod to clean up after your players, IMO. Edits would have just given an unfair advantage/confusion to anyone who saw them before the edit.

[Mr. Flay]

My favorite quote of the game:

Assuming that there are two scum left, they must be one of (EmpTyger or Elvis) and one of (Mr. Flay and kops). Does that clear me, or have I not thought this out?

It was so brilliantly elegant I kept thinking "that can't be right...maybe bigAl IS the other scum...no, wait..." Total logic masquerading as WIFOM.