Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[zMuffinMan]

confirm

[zMuffinMan]

Hi

1. How much experience playing mafia do you have?
2. Why do you enjoy playing mafia?

1. Pretty much none. A friend told me about this game and said it'd be the kind of thing I'd like. He linked me here and I've read a few games he's played in, if that counts for experience at all...
2. Well, it looks like I'd find it enjoyable.

Vote: Romanus

I don't see why you needed to tell us that your vote wasn't serious.

[zMuffinMan]

@Romanus

You're giving us zero credit if you really think we need to be spoon-fed that badly. Being new doesn't mean we're stupid.

On the topic of making things clear, could you explain the irony in your reasoning for voting me? Jumping on someone for itty bitty things early on smells of scum to me, so my vote stands.

[zMuffinMan]

Australian EST (+10 GMT, +1 for DST), it's 2:22pm now.

I get on when I can, time varies a lot because my current sleeping pattern. I'll probably be posting somewhere between midday and midnight my time most days.

[zMuffinMan]

@cjdrum

Can you give us all a fresh new reason for your vote?

A new reason? Not really. I guess you could say I don't like the vibe coming from Romanus's posts at the moment, and I'll wait to see how he responds to the last page of posts before I do anything.

@zMuffinMan - If you ran a UPick and somebody submitted "The Muffin Man", would they be ProTown or Anti?

The Muffin Man doesn't really sound like an anti-town role, but I might make it anti-town because of that. It would probably depend on the other names submitted, I don't really know how UPicks work (only just read the wiki page for it).


@[L]

@MuffinMan: After reading your friend's games, what is one thing you learned? What appeals to you to make this game interesting?

What I learned? That's a tough question. I wasn't really reading through the games thinking about what I was learning at the time, and my friend was answering any questions I had. I knew the result of the games before I read through them. If I had to say one thing I learned, it would be the need to thoroughly think through everything before trusting any assumptions.
What appeals to me? I like the style of the game. One team has to find any information they can and analyse it, while the other team relies on deception to outplay their opponents. I'm a kinesthetic person, and consider myself very intuitive. This sort of thing is right up my alley.


@Misder

@zMuffinMan Why do you find it demeaning that Romanus is trying to be the IC?

That's a somewhat loaded question. My problem isn't with Romanus "trying to be the IC", my problem is with what he was saying.

I haven't played before, but I ask of anyone who read Romanus's first post:

When you read the first line, did you seriously think to yourself, "wow, that's a valid tactic for finding scum"?

Were you flabbergasted when he revealed on the second line of his post that it wasn't a real strategy?

He didn't even properly explain what RVS is, so if you didn't have any idea what he was doing, how would the second line have helped?

I don't like the way the second line was written. I don't see it as him making things clear or being helpful "as an IC".


@WingDamage9001

The basis of scum hunting, and the only way to end RVS is to jump on people for something. This early in the game, anything is enough to jump on, if only to start a conversation. You seem to be jumping on Romanus for something pretty tiny. Did you feel that it was a large enough transgression to warrant suspicion?

Did you miss Romanus's post? I was pointing out irony.

I was (and am) trying to extract information based on something I picked up that didn't feel right. I don't feel this is proof he is scum, but it's a lead to extract information on the way he plays the game.

I'm not sure what you mean by a transgression large enough to warrant suspicion. Everything is suspicious and everyone is suspicious. I'm the only person I can trust right now.

[zMuffinMan]

@Misder

@zMuffinMan Your vote on Romanus- is it more due to his first post or his OMGUS vote?

At the moment, it's a combination of both. I don't like the way he came across in his first post and I don't like the reasoning in his second post. It's not one more than the other.

The 'OMGUS' itself is a pretty small factor to me. It's not so much that he voted for me, but that his reason was rather hypocritical.

A couple questions for you, though:

When you play town, do you only vote for people if you think they're mafia? (Not including any RVS vote)

Suppose you were town in a game where no one voted for anyone else unless they were fairly sure the person they're voting for is mafia, how would you move the game forward?

[zMuffinMan]

@Romanus

How was your first post designed to ease players into the game? If I had no idea what RVS was, do you think your post would have helped me?
Why did you feel it was necessary to make a post early?
Do you think your reason for voting me could be construed an innocent reason for pushing a wagon?
Is there a reason you're not pushing, just waiting?

[zMuffinMan]

I'm just getting some fluff out of the way before I properly read the last two pages. It seems the action picked up while I wasn't around.

@Romanus

As IC: I did not just use the abbreviation RVS. I used the words Random Vote Stage, which I think is pretty self explanatory. Are you really accusing me of thinking people are smart and stupid at the same time? Also, I wanted to post early to demonstrate how things kinda work. I don't know how things work on other boards. I also know that the opening of the game is the stage that is the hardest to get through.

I actually didn't even realise you were the IC until you told me after I voted you. It didn't look like something an IC would post, and when you explained it away as doing it because you were IC, it confused me even more.

As IC: I have no problem admitting that I did it poorly. I'd also love suggestions as to how to do the "ease in" in a better fashion.

Honestly, I was expecting some big post explaining that you were the IC and what your role is in this game; it's what I've seen from reading other games. That's partially why I didn't even realise you were the IC.

e.g. newbie 1083: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2895552
newbie 1081: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2894822
newbie 1080: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2886374


@Wingdamage9001

I didn't. And I'm not sure what irony you mean.

Sure.

I mean is it suspicious enough to follow up on. Do you think that it was scummy enough to point out? You said that jumping on people for something tiny was scummy, so for you not to be scummy, you must not think it was tiny. You contradict yourself, and I don't like it.

I was talking about the irony of jumping on someone early for something small supposedly being a scum-tell. I'm not actually sure if he really uses it as scum-tell, I was just quoting him because I found it appropriate that it appeared he was doing what he thought was a scum-tell. It was sarcasm, maybe you didn't pick it up.

How much do you support this wagon? L-2 is a dangerous position. Are you prepared to see a speedlynch like this?

This, followed by,

Unvote, Vote Romanus
Pressure is good?

Do I point out the irony here? You're doing what you didn't like me doing.

You're contradicting yourself, but you don't like contradicting?



Re-reading the last couple pages after I get something to eat.

[zMuffinMan]

Townies best and only weapon is their vote. I treat my vote as a weapon.

I agree with this. I find it interesting that people wouldn't agree with this. It's why I was questioning Misder at the bottom of page 3.

Yes, you have questioning and analysis, but it really gets you nowhere without voting.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch?

I wouldn't say there's any more or less "danger", it's just I don't see any real point to it. Why would you want to rush a lynch?

If you think there's no real danger in a speed lynch, why were you worried when it reached L-1?

I'm not satisfied with you claiming that you didn't realise it's a newbie game and someone could claim they made a mistake when hammering. How did you not realise that before?

Romanus was not saying he wanted a speed lynch.

You're right, but he was suggesting he saw no problem with speed lynches.




@Wingdamage9001,

I never said I didn't like you voting. I asked if you were ready to lynch someone.

I don't recall you ever asking me if I was prepared to lynch someone. I recall you asking me whether I thought what Romanus had said was a good enough reason to vote someone, but that's different. I wasn't pushing a lynch, I was making a vote.

Why are you ready to lynch someone now?



@Prosaurus,

Could you analyse your own posts from an objective point of view?

Can everyone post who they think is most suspicious and why?

Romanus. The incongruity of his play so far makes no sense. The only problem I have is that it doesn't fit my image of how an IC would play as scum, but that's somewhat WIFOM-y (hope I'm using this expression correctly).

[zMuffinMan]

@Misder

Just putting it out there, if cjdrum isn't mafia, mafia is crazy+romanus. That's guts right there, but I like my intuition.

Vote: Romanus

I'll let Pro handle the hammer if he so chooses.

I'm trying to understand your logic here. If you really thought that, wouldn't you hammer cjdrum first to check whether or not he is town or mafia?

@Prosaurus,

Maybe you missed this in my last post...

Could you analyse your own posts from an objective point of view?

@cjdrum

Why did you decide to stop following Romanus, if you truly believe that even if he was mafia he would still exhibit town behaviour? It doesn't really make sense to me that you suddenly jumped ship.


edit before posting: OK, it looks like cjdrum has been hammered. Still, would like responses.

[zMuffinMan]

!vote Prosaurus

While I would vote for Romanus, having an IC can be useful even if they are scum

Quote from when you hammered cjdrum. Explain.

cjdrum, since you're actually confirmed town, it means you can say anything you want and we'll believe it.

Quote from during twilight. cjdrum was not confirmed town at that point, and there was no logical reason to even say something like this. He had no information to give that everyone in the game didn't already know.

I'm guessing the scum aren't too bright killing the most inactive player. They should have killed the IC. Unless (*GASP*) the IC is scum.

Remarking that scum aren't too bright for killing McGriddle - while voting for the IC. Is it that you don't think the IC, who you are supposedly learning from, is a bright player?

[zMuffinMan]

@Prosaurus,

The problem with your statements about the IC is that they're contradictory. You said the IC was useful to keep around, but you want to lynch him. You said the wolves aren't too bright, but you think he is a wolf, even though you're trying to learn how to play from him. And in this particular game, the IC is not the one who is helping newbs the most... I don't know what game you've been reading.

On cjdrum, I know that he claimed during twilight, but you were talking about him being "confirmed" town. It struck me as odd that you were using the word confirmed when it really wasn't confirmed. And any information that he gave us could not be given any credence. For example, if he told us that he thought you're mafia, would that have been justification to lynch you? It looks like the purpose of that post was to come off as pro-town, but the content is something I'd expect from mafia.

Romanus was my top suspect yesterday, but you have been setting off way too many alarms since the hammer.

Could you restate your reasons for hammering cjdrum and also restate your reasons vote voting Romanus today?

[zMuffinMan]

EBWOP: "reasons for voting Romanus"

Just woke up.

Also interested in seeing what Misder and Romanus have to say.

[zMuffinMan]

@Prosaurus, I was asking you to restate the reasons, in light of everything that's happened since you originally voted for Romanus. Even if your reasons are exactly the same as they were originally.

Also, you really need to stop using WIFOM. Even in your defense against L's analysis, you managed to use it quite a few times.

@L, why are you so sure Prosaurus is scum? Looks like you're bussing. Your analysis was a lot different to my interpretation of his posts, and I see no proof you provided that would lead you to think he "has to be scum".

[zMuffinMan]

I'm fine with mass claiming.

[zMuffinMan]

So just to be clear how this will work...

First person (WingDamage) claims, if he claims vanilla townie he chooses the next person that has to claim and they do so ASAP, if he claims a PR then we wait for everyone to have a chance to counter-claim (i.e. everyone must post after a PR claim) before either stopping and discussing if there is a counter-claim or moving on to the next person claiming (that will be WingDamage's choice).

If this is the case, then we still need to wait for Misder to post anyway, since it would be pointless starting without all six players active.

edit before posting: looks like wingdamage claimed already.

[zMuffinMan]

Not doc.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm a vanilla townie.

Popcorn to crazypianist.

[zMuffinMan]

So, 1 Doc claim and 5 VT claims.

I have some thoughts that I'll post soon, but I have to go pick up my 5-year-old brother from school and feed him, so expect something probably a couple hours from now.

[zMuffinMan]

OK, I'm going to lay some thoughts out based on the claims that I've had a some time to think through.

First of all, the claims eliminate two setups. With no cop claim, there are only two possible setups left:

# 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies, or
# 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townie

I'll cover my thoughts on the second scenario first, since I think it is more likely.

In this case, Wing would be Doc. Misder would be unconfirmed. I see no reason mafia would have had to submit a night kill last night. In fact, I think it would have been smart for mafia not to night kill. In this setup, there'd be 2 goons, so there could only be either a cop or a doc, not both. If there was a doc, and mafia chose not to night kill, there's a likelihood that town would assume the kill was blocked, and therefore assume that whoever was protected was town, regardless of their actual alignment. If there was a cop, and mafia chose not to night kill, the cop would be claiming during MyLo, and even if he found both mafia with his checks, the claim would be questionable, especially if there was a counter-claim from mafia (or if mafia claimed first).

Now for the second scenario: in this case Wing would be mafia. I see this as less likely, but still possible. In this setup, there would be a Roleblocker and a Goon, and they would know that there's either 7 vanilla townies or 1 cop, 1 doc and 5 vanilla townies. They might have gambled that it was the former, and chose not to submit a night kill based on the plan that one of them would come out as Doc today. The main benefit of this would be that one mafia would be "confirmed" as Doc, which would most likely lead to a win. Of course, if they were wrong about the setup, this would most likely completely backfire. But looking at the risk vs reward, if they felt there were no town power roles, this is something they might do.

I find it interesting that you're ruling out possibilities, crazypianist. Why is it confirmed both Wing and Misder are town-aligned?

I'll wait until both Zorblag and crazypianist have had a chance to post before I lay out some other thoughts I have about the lynch (or lack thereof) today.

[zMuffinMan]

@crazypianist,

Wow I can't believe you made that post zmuffin. So much WIFOM. Regardless, if you can show me a game where scum don't choose to nightkill in a newbie game I might somewhat believe you, but you just earned major scum points.

I don't see any WIFOM in my post, I am talking about possibilities that you're ignoring, I'm not saying any of that actually happened.

The point is, you're talking about two players being confirmed town. The question is, how do you know that? You subtly ignored my question.

You either know it from information you have, or you're actually making assumptions based on WIFOM....

If you actually believed your points, you'd be voting no lynch right now.

Well, actually, regardless of whether anything I said is what actually happened, I see no reason to push for no lynch even if something like that did happen. I see merit in lynching and merit in not lynching, but regardless, I don't have a reason to push for no lynch quickly.



@Wing

I'm not saying Misder isn't town, I'm just saying it's not confirmed. He's nowhere near my top suspect, but I just found it interesting that crazypianist has been telling us he's confirmed town. It looks like he's buddying because his night kill failed.


@Anyone,

By the way, if you actually have a reason other than "this is a newbie game", I'm interested in where anything I mentioned is flawed. The fact that I am thinking of it in a newbie game means it's a possibility that could occur in a newbie game, so don't give accuse me of using WIFOM while saying "it's a newbie game, it wouldn't happen".

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop: Any grammar mistakes are due to having just woke up. Meh. Gonna drink some coffee now.

[zMuffinMan]

@crazypianist,

I already outlined the benefits/advantages Mafia would have from night-killing, but I will go over it one more time.

Let's assume the more likely (less risky) scenario: that this game is 1 doc, 2 goons, 6 vanilla.

Goons know there is either a doctor or a cop in the game, not both.

If there was a cop, it would actually be MyLo today, and any claim by a cop would have to be taken with a grain of salt - and mafia could counter-claim or claim first if they felt necessary.

If there was a doctor, then the doctor would automatically assume that they protected the night kill, and like what has happened today, some people would assume that this means whoever he protected is a townie.

I'm not saying this is what happened. I'm discussing possibilities. And I could be way off. But I can see why not killing wouldn't be a bad idea. I asked you to tell me where you think my reasoning is flawed, and you haven't done so. The other setup I think is more far-fetched, but I can still see it happening, and if mafia pulled it off correctly, it would virtually guarantee a win because people would probably assume mafia wouldn't gamble like that.

You are telling me that there are no advantages to not night killing, when there clearly are. You're telling us that there are two confirmed townies, and there aren't. The thing is, I personally think that Wing and Misder are town, but I could be wrong. You act like you

know

they are definitely town.

I can't provide an example of a similar situation where no night kill has occurred. Asking me to do so is absurd, when I've never played before and have read a select few games, some with different setups to this. Does that mean it hasn't happened before? No. Does that mean it won't happen ever? No. Does that mean it isn't currently happening? No.

Why should I be voting no lynch if I believe something I said is true? We are not at MyLo if Wing is Doc. There are benefits to lynching, there are benefits to not lynching, but even if I truly did want no lynch, why would I push for it without letting people discuss their opinions on the game?


@L,

What? Why would a Cop lie in their claim? Any cop claim from this point onwards cannot, should not, be believed.

[zMuffinMan]

is there any reason that you think they'd be better off doing that then they would making the night kill and potentially taking out a cop and not having to deal with a situation where they need to get a particular lynch (the cop) or lose?

If I were mafia in a situation where I knew there was either a doctor or a cop with 3 vanilla townies dead at night 2, it's something I'd consider doing, precisely because I don't know whether there is a cop or a doctor. Speaking purely objectively, not taking into account any reads anyone might have got on anyone, there is a 50% chance that not night killing would mean a situation like today, and there is a 50% chance that there is a Cop, who would have to claim at MyLo. I think you're overrating a cop claim at MyLo.

Or are you just arguing against fully cleared as opposed to largely cleared?

I am arguing against fully cleared.

[zMuffinMan]

We are at Mylo if Wing is doc. All scum have to do is kill wing during the night as he cannot protect himself.

Uh... Well that changes things a bit.

I didn't realise doctors couldn't protect themselves (I overlooked that part when I read the role description), and this means I'm going to have to re-evaluate my analysis of the game, since it was partially based on the doctor being able to protect himself.

[zMuffinMan]

@Zorblag

The reason I disagree about cop claims at MyLo being a big threat to mafia is that I think mafia would have an advantage.

Firstly, I am only suggesting this possibility in the case that there are two goons, meaning Mafia know there is only a doctor or a cop, not both.

Now, the biggest problem town would have is questioning why no night kill occurred - there's a lot of WIFOM around this, but there'd still be confusion. After that, there's the believability of the claim. Then there's the problem of counter-claims. Then after all that, there's the problem of what the Cop findings actually are.

You said that mafia would have to lynch the cop or lose. This is wrong, unless the Cop has found both mafia. If the cop has found one, or none, then it's a case of either:

- Mafia lynched (if Cop found one), Cop dies that night, town have at most one confirmed townie the next day and it's still MyLo.
- Cop claims to have confirmed two townies still alive, but long story short, town have at most a 33% chance of winning in this case (not taking into account reads). If you don't follow this and need me to explain it further, I will, but there's a lot of possibilities around what happens here and I don't want to get into too much detail when it's largely irrelevant (because it hasn't happened in this game)
- Cop confirms one townie still alive, there's a 50/50 town mislynches, and if they don't, cop dies that night and it's 1 confirmed vs 3 unconfirmed, good for mafia
- Cop lynched day 3, town lose.

Because of the unlikelihood of a cop finding both mafia nights one and two (unless he picked up particularly scummy reads from them), I think you're overrating a cop claim at MyLo after no night kill.

Is there something I'm missing here?

In this case in particular though, if there's either a cop or a doc then we've got WingDamage9001 (sorry that I've been putting an extra d in there up till now) as our doc. For the scum to gain anything on this gambit you're saying they might have pulled

they had to get somewhat lucky with the claim order, they had to get a doc instead of a cop who had two nights to work and they had to have WingDamage9001 protect scum rather than town

. It's not good scum play to expect that things are going to fall into place like that. It would also be entirely possible to get just about the same usefulness out of fake claims if they went for the kill in addition to the claim. Basically they'd be gambling on a doctor protecting scum night two for this to be the right move for them to make. I don't think that's likely to have been what they went with at all.

I'll address the three bolded parts in order...

Firstly, Mafia should not have known there would be a mass claim. Other than a mass claim, I don't see what you mean by luck with claim order. Maybe I'm missing something.

The second part is based on your belief that there being a cop instead of a doctor is bad, I disagree with this for reasons stated above.

And finally, no, Wing didn't have to protect mafia, it would just work better if he did. They don't actually have anything to lose if a doctor (and no cop) is in the game and they choose not to night kill.

In the end though, if you want to try to make a case on Misder you're certainly welcome to put one out there. You're technically correct that he's not fully cleared. I suspect that we'll have much better places to look today than that but I won't object to someone looking closely that way as long as it doesn't detract from other scum hunting.

The reason I'm bringing up different possibilities is not because I think Misder is mafia. It's because I have a scummy read on crazypianist, and at the start of this day phase he seemed to be absolutely sure a kill was blocked and, after the claims, that Wing and Misder were "confirmed" town. I assumed a kill was blocked last night, but I found it especially weird that he seemed to know for sure. It looks like a scum slip, and he's started retracting it, telling us that he isn't 100% sure, he just thinks it's highly likely. You don't say something is confirmed just because you think it is highly likely.

[zMuffinMan]

My reads are based on his input with, and reactions to, the lynches days one and two, as well how he has come across today. I read the game he was scum (if it's the one that I think Misder linked), and I don't see why you're getting a town read from him this game, based on meta from that game. But I wasn't participating in that game, so maybe that's why I see it differently. It should also be noted that you're obviously one of the two most likely players I think would be mafia with him, so I'm not really taking your "read" completely seriously.

If you want me to write up a full case on him, I'd be happy to do so in about 2 hours. I'm picking up my brother again today, will be back later.

In the mean time, if you get a chance to respond before I'm back, can you go into more detail about your town reads on him?

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop: when I say "more detail", I'm talking about what specifically he's saying that makes you think he's town.

be back later

[zMuffinMan]

crazypianist day one:

I don't see anything about his play that looks particularly pro-town. He accused a few different people (Misder, Prosaurus, cjdrum), 2 who are now confirmed townies, and the other who is likely a townie, and he defended Romanus's motives on his behalf, which seemed odd. He votes Prosaurus, stating that Prosaurus was coming across as very scummy, then the next post he retracts it and says it looks more newb than scummy, and votes cjdrum instead, with very little reason (most of the post in which he voted cjdrum was him talking about how scummy Prosaurus was). He then asks whether cjdrum was softclaiming a PR by taking part of cjdrum's post out of context when what cjdrum said wasn't in any way related to claiming. He seems to be a lot more persistent in creating pressure on cjdrum and forcing a claim out of someone, and apparently doesn't get the same "newb" read on cjdrum he got from Prosaurus, which I find extremely hard to believe, considering the content of cjdrum's posts. A lot of inconsistency. Post-lynch, he gets pretty defensive when accused of not scumhunting.

Day two, I was very wary of what crazypianist was saying about Prosaurus. His "read" on Prosaurus went back to "scummy" from "newb" for no real reason - he just acknowledged that he shouldn't have changed his read. I think he was taking advantage of the fact that Prosaurus was an easy lynch target (like cjdrum day one), and there were already people who were questioning his motives. It didn't look like he was really hunting scum to me. Unfortunately the day ended early with an unexpected hammer, so there wasn't really much discussion. During twilight he made a remark about the premature lynch, and I could be reading too much into this again, but he seemed to know the lynch didn't favour town...

Oh boy! Another premature lynch! What did you think you'd accomplish with that, Wing?

Yes, I could be reading too much into this, but I see scolding someone for lynching a townie pretty much the same as complimenting a doctor for blocking a kill. It's scummy to me. I know he's talking about doing it prematurely, but I see it as him trying to shift suspicion away from himself.

Finally, we have today, which I've already gone over.

I don't like his play-style at all, I don't think it's pro-town and I think some of his recent posts were slips. If you're really reading it differently to me, then so be it, I can't change your mind if you're interpreting information differently due to meta knowledge you have on him. I think it's all too coincidental that he had a part in pushing two mislynches and I am reading some of the things he's been saying as slips. It's interesting to note that you seem to think that crazypianist is less scummy because he's not playing the same as in a game where he was scum and

lost

.

By the way, I missed this post earlier...

Since you're aware of the way basic probability works what would you say the chances are, at a guess, that we're talking about something that's actually come up here. I sort of expect you to be more interested in finding scum than defending this point just now if you're town.

I was defending the point strongly because it tied in with one of the reasons I'm suspicious of crazypianist today. crazypianist posted without even looking at possible alternatives. I don't like that. Even if they aren't as likely, they're still possible.

And yes, this particular part of my argument is similar to one particular part of my argument against Prosaurus. That is very perceptive of you, Zorblag.

[zMuffinMan]

@L,

You have the uncanny ability to misinterpret, misunderstand or ignore the things I say.

Explain how it's even possible for Wing to be mafia, without using the so-called "WIFOM" in the post where I explain some different possible scenarios around the claims and lack of kill last night.

You've also attacked me for defending part of my argument -- What?

I can't understand what you mean when you say you see more possibilities than what I mentioned. There are only two possible scenarios, since we can pretty much confirm there is no Cop in the game, and if there is a Cop at this point, and he does claim later, he should be lynched immediately on the grounds of being a terrible player (and very, very untrustworthy).

Yes, I use WIFOM, as do several other players. For example, there are people claiming that mafia always kill in a newbie game. And Zorblag has used WIFOM a lot.... I mean, he is telling us it's less likely crazypianist is mafia because he's not playing the same as when he was scum in a game he got lynched day 2 and lost. That statement actually blows my mind. This game is doing my head in.

Interesting to note is that crazypianist appears to be buddying you, while accusing Zorblag and I of being the two mafia. Neither crazypianist or you have a case on me that doesn't revolve completely around what I've said today, which has apparently made me an easy target. Neither of you has even voted me, or accused me of being scummy, before today.

[zMuffinMan]

His opening paragraph is horrible. He says I voted for Prosaurus and then switched to cjdrum for little reason after seeing Prosaurus as newb and then further goes on to say that I was calling Prosaurus scum in the post where I voted cjdrum. This is completely ignoring cjdrum's posts. Cjdrum bandwagonned SO heavily. I originally thought the switch from Misder to Romanus was newb rather than scum (see post 112), but this changed after post 121. I explicitly said in 112 what Romanus was calling him out for and she refused to read. Further others had called her scummy. He was completely ignoring all of this. This looked more like newbscum rather than newbtown to me. As for the reason for suspecting a power claim, that's just what soft claims are, subtle. If he was going to cite later after claiming that 128 was his hint after claiming, then I wouldn't have bought it at all. At the end of day 1, I was trying to get cjdrum to actually accomplish something, rather than just giving unfounded accusations.

cjdrum was bandwagoning, you thought Prosaurus was newb not scummy, so the reason you switched from Prosaurus was purely because cjdrum bandwagoned. Now considering the IC was advocating bandwagoning as a good thing and cjdrum was obviously not an experienced player, how could you even seriously fault that?

You claim you got a newbscum read off cjdrum but Prosaurus as newb(town) and scummy, just not newbscum?

He didn't even remotely softclaim. You took his post out of context.

That's because it was a blatant lie.

I don't see how you can call it a blatant lie, when in Misder's opinion, you weren't scumhunting...

HMMMMMMM WHAT DID PROSAURUS DO AT THE END OF DAY 1? OH THAT'S RIGHT! HE HAMMERED CJDRUM! Further if you go back and compare his hammer to the game in which he was hammered by Zorblag, it looked really really canned. I then went back to thinking newbscum rather than newbtown.

Yeah, but he hammered after a claim, and obviously felt cjdrum was scummy enough to hammer. I don't see how hammering at an appropriate time (even if early) changes someone from newb town to newb scum... He was hammering someone who claimed vanilla, even if he got his read wrong, it wasn't a bad hammer.

Considering he expressed his intent to hammer after a claim, you had the option of unvoting if you didn't want the lynch to go through, but you chose not to.

If you want to criticize me about attacking wing's hammer, go back and read wing day 2. Maybe you'll see why I said such things. He posted 5 times with barely any content whatsoever. His last post he comes in to hammer Prosaurus with only a short remark. Looks like bandwagonning to the extreme.

No, it looks like you were trying to make an easy target of him. Thinking about it from a logical perspective, he was either really bad scum or really confident town. To be honest, it's a play I'd expect from a doctor because it would pretty much guarantee scum don't want to night kill him, just because it makes him an easy target and I don't doubt you'd be calling for his lynch if he hadn't claimed doctor.

Horrible case is horrible.

As it is, your case on me is simply that I have suggested that the night activities weren't necessarily as black and white as a doctor blocking a night kill. And you supposedly have a town read on L. Strong case.

You can't really criticise bandwagoning when the whole game has been you looking for easy lynches, today being no exception. Maybe if you accuse me of using WIFOM some more, your case might be stronger.

[zMuffinMan]

cjdrum was a newbie playing in a newbie game, all he said was he didn't want to get lynched so he could continue learning. You were twisting what he was saying in an attempt to support your vote on him. And he wasn't just bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, he was bandwagoning to "create pressure" as unsuccessful as that may have actually been, because the IC said it was a good thing to do (or at least that's how he interpreted it).

As for Misder calling you out because he didn't think you're scumhunting, I'm going to drop that because you don't seem to understand the concept of opinions being different from facts - there is no truth value to someone's opinion. You can't tell someone they're blatantly lying if they call your shirt ugly or if they think you look stupid when you try to lick your nose. You got really defensive about an opinion, and you still are being defensive.

Misrep misrep. I never said I didn't support the lynch. I said that Prosaurus' hammer looked so insincere.

I don't buy it. You're calling the hammer insincere when a claim had already been made and Prosaurus had expressed his readiness to hammer multiple times, and you'd posted in between that, so you must have read it. You didn't have a problem with Prosaurus hammering day one, because the "insincerity" in your eyes made him an easy lynch target day two.

So you're saying I shouldn't have criticized him because I thought he was really bad scum?

No, I'm saying the criticism was unnecessary (because.... everyone saw it happen) and you only posted it because you thought it would make yourself seem more pro-town. I would liken it to scum congratulating a doctor for blocking a night kill - it's unnecessary and only done in an attempt to score town points. I also think you made a point of criticising him to set him up for a lynch today.

That's funny, because as far as I was concerned, I've been defending myself.

What? I'm talking about you saying that Zorblag and I are a scum pair.

However this statement contradicts the fact above that he was trying to defend Pro's hammer.

I'm not following what you're accusing me of here. I didn't state my opinion on the hammer at all, I just said that since the hammer (i.e. the content of the post in which he hammered that I mentioned I wanted an explanation for, and his posts during twilight, as well as his posts on day two) he was setting off alarms. The hammer itself didn't tell me anything, really, whereas the hammer itself seems to be the sole reason you voted Prosaurus day two.

As for this little gem...

I just don't see why he wouldn't be pushing for a no lynch if he doesn't believe the claim. We could "verify" the claim, or at least the stance of another player and thus have a better chance at hitting scum.

Do elaborate, because I find this post downright stupid, and this is like the third time you've said it. It makes no sense whatsoever.

It's not that I don't believe the claim, stop putting words in my mouth. I've clearly stated several times that I do believe the claim. However, the issue is that you've told us that Wing and Misder are

confirmed

town. You cannot know this unless you have access to information the rest of us don't, because they are not confirmed town as long as any other possibility exists. Ironically, part of the reason I believe their claim is because you confirmed they are town. And since I think you slipped up there, it makes sense to me that they are town.

Besides that, even if I did want to push a no lynch, I don't think there's any benefit in doing it quickly. I might have missed something, people might want to express their opinions on the game, and there is no reason at all to rush the day phase.

[zMuffinMan]

Pressure isn't a reason to vote in and of itself. If someone gets brought to L-1 during RVS, by cjdrum's argument there's a lot of pressure on that person. However, because it's RVS, there's no reason to actually acknowledge the votes as pressure since they had no valid reasoning.

I don't think cjdrum's play was good town-play, I am simply saying that it was justified (even if poorly), due to him being a newb following what he thought the IC was telling him was a good thing. Romanus supported bandwagoning to create pressure, and probably due to not fully understanding what Romanus was suggesting, and the fact that Romanus was the IC, cjdrum bandwagoned on his advice.

This was my interpretation when I read cjdrum's posts. I didn't get a particularly scum or town read from what he was saying. Yes, I could see newbscum doing this to appear like newbtown, but I can also see newbtown being just as likely to do it (the fact that newbtown could do something like this is why newbscum would do it, QED).

So what I want an explanation for is:

1) How did you determine cjdrum was newbscum, not newbtown? Is it purely because you think cjdrum didn't have a real reason to bandwagon?
2) How did you determine Prosaurus was newbtown, even though you thought he was scummy and newb (but not newbscum)?

the way I see it he was either confused on the definition of scumhunting, or not reading what I was saying.

My interpretation of what Misder was saying is that you were only trying to appear like you were scumhunting (i.e. his opinion was that you're scum pretending to do it). Ergo, you getting overly defensive about it seemed fitting.

Re: Prosaurus' Hammer. I was calling the post where he hammered cjdrum insincere. It looked out of place. See my argument above.

I saw your argument about his insincerity, and I don't think it's valid, considering you made no mention of it before day 2, even though Prosaurus clearly stated more than once that he was ready to hammer. It seems odd that you only thought there was insincerity after the hammer actually occurred.

And that's exactly why I was advocating a no lynch at the beginning of today!

I don't think you really had a choice, even if you wanted to get Wing lynched.

But that doesn't take back the fact that you ignored Romanus all of day two.

Day two lasted 3 real-time days (I posted 4 times, and one was an ebwop...), and ended with a really unexpected hammer before a claim even took place. Romanus had a single post day two, and it added nothing to the game, other than explaining his inactivity (which seemed to start about one real-time day before the first day phase ended). I thought it was a better use of my time to extract information out of Prosaurus, considering I found some of his play scummy, and I thought the day would last a bit longer than it did.

Re: No lynch. You seem to adamantly believe that the situations stated above are a somewhat likely possibility. As a result, just by choosing randomly, we have a one in three chance of nailing scum. If we no lynch, one person gets their role revealed at night and then we have a two in five chance of nailing scum.

You should feel the same, unless you are absolutely sure you are right about the night events.

Even if I saw no benefit in lynching today, it doesn't follow that I'd push for a no lynch immediately.

[zMuffinMan]

I've been really lethargic since Friday; I slept for about 14 hours after my last post and just haven't really had the energy to post until now. Sorry about that.

@L

You weren't attacking my "defensiveness", you were attacking me talking about different possible scenarios around the night events.

Ironically, you're now voting Wing, who could only possibly be mafia if he is part of a roleblocker/goon combination and they chose not to submit a night kill last night by gambling on the setup.

Why don't you believe Wing's claim?

@crazypianist,

The only questions I asked in my last post were to do with how you got your tells on cjdrum and Prosaurus on day one.

[zMuffinMan]

Were your other two votes also cemented or just this one?

[zMuffinMan]

@Misder,

The only problem with a Wing vote is that how the crap could mafia predict that there would be no doctor? That's a huge gamble and that Wing claimed first, the most risky of the claims.

Well, since Wing could only be mafia in a roleblocker/goon combination, it would be a matter of whether he and his partner felt strongly that the setup was 7 vanilla townies. It would still be a gamble, but there would be no risk of being counter-claimed in that situation. Also, it's highly likely he'd be the roleblocker in this case, because if, for some reason, his partner got lynched, they would need to be revealed as goon or the plan would be ruined.

@L,

Who are your suspects Muffinman? Who do you suspect most?

I don't like the idea of categorising people into town reads and scum reads - I'm suspicious of everyone until I confirm they're town. That said, I am least suspicious of Misder and most suspicious of crazypianist and you.

Although I want to hear from Zorblag (or his replacement) as well. I noticed he's already been replaced in 1075.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm confused as to whether you've caught up on the whole thread yet, since you seem to be replying to posts on this page, but have only given your opinion on the game up until page 9 (unless I'm reading it wrong).

Also, do you intend to answer questions that were asked of Zorblag before he was replaced?

[zMuffinMan]

I haven't voted yet for a few reasons. You're correct that I'm not being as aggressive as I was previous to today, but I don't think aggression is right today, and had I known there would be a quick lynch day two, it might have changed my choice to be aggressive then as well.

I haven't been confident enough in my reads yet to vote. And considering how quickly the other day phases have ended, I'm taking my time to get today's lynch right.

At the moment I'm considering the possibility that there are two mafia on the Thor wagon, because that would tie in with some of the reads I've been getting on crazy and L. I'm also considering whether one of them is town and the other is bussing you. With the current Thor wagon, I see three options: either you are mafia, there is at least one mafia on the wagon, or the mafia are waiting until they see each other online and are going to quick hammer you. I'm ruling out the third option at the moment for a couple reasons: it simply hasn't happened yet, and I don't think Wing and Misder are scum together for various reasons. So now I'm considering the first two options.

I'm looking at how Wing and Misder are reacting to the Thor wagon that's been created, and I will be looking closely at how you react to it when you've finally read up on today. I'm interested in your analysis on crazy and L. The Wing->L vote and the reasons behind it also interest me, and Wing hasn't been answering the question that Misder has asked I think three times now.

I am liking your posts so far. You're actually pointing out things that I haven't been looking at that are worthy of discussion (for example, the votes from previous days). I don't think that trying to generate discussion like this makes you less scummy, but it does help with my analysis of the game.

Do you play aggressive at MyLo, Thor?

What is your opinion on the day two hammer followed by the lack of night kill followed by Wing's doctor claim? I assume you will get to this when you've fully caught up, but this is one thing I'm particularly interested in you answering.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't see anything directed at me, just references to me. Can you point specifically at where you're questioning me or raising an issue with me or something I've said?

We didn't agree with how Romanus played the game.

Are you suggesting that this is an invalid reason for thinking Romanus is scummy?

If you were to vote for someone right now, who would you vote and for what reasons?

Also, just a general question for you: Do you think talking a lot makes you seem less scummy?

[zMuffinMan]

How do you feel about me calling you and crazy the most likely scumpair?

Did you say that? Last I read, you said you thought it was likely crazypianist and L were scum together. It's hard to tell, since you didn't actually say what you think, you just put forward possibilities.

If you're saying it now, then my answer is that it doesn't make me feel anything. I think you're saying it to deflect attention from yourself, and because you're trying to intimidate me.

There is such a vast gulf between "your playstyle is one I don't agree with" and "you are playing in a way that is scummy" that they don't even know the other exists - because usually players only seem to be able to spot one or the other at any given time. There was a lot of time spent outlining such brilliantly clear scumtells as "he didn't define RVS" or "he seems to support bandwagons, but admits in newbies they scare him" without once explaining how any of that helped Romanus win if he was scum.

But, really, I'm sort of stupid and silly in equal measure - would you care to clarify why this is actually a good set of scumtells and how I'm misunderstanding it?

My interpretation of not agreeing with a play style is that someone is playing in a scummy way or, more specifically, playing in a way that doesn't benefit town. Romanus was inconsistent, and nothing he said really benefited town. Do you disagree with this?

You or crazy as previously indicated in both this post and my VCA post and, probably my last wall post. Points were outlined in the previous posts and I'll make you go back and dig for those reasons because I like being difficult while claiming it's part of my charm (the charm is actually my beard, but people often don't realize that).

Consider me too stupid to find these "scum tells" you have on me. Please restate them. Or is it purely to do with your vote count analysis?

Me personally or players in general?

I was referring to you personally, but it doesn't matter, you answered anyway. I was only interested because it seems you think that posting a lot of content = town points and you seem to be posting a lot of content right now.

what info did you hope to gain by asking me how "aggressive" I play in Mylo?

I was interested in why you were asking about my (lack of) aggression today as opposed to previous days.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, I did specifically call one player Doc (whic, is town) accepted his protection was a kill block, point out the three potential scum, explain how I had trouble seeing a L/crazy pairing, and also pointed out how sensible a crazy/Muffin pairing was. But, maybe it was all hidden amongst my giant wall.

Purely VCA (which is a tell).

er....

I see two references to me in your vote count analysis. One is where you mention I'm sitting on the Romanus wagon day one and two is where you mention that it's not likely crazypianist and I are scum together due to some supposed brohugginess.

I'm also beginning to wonder whether you're using vote count analysis as your primary tool for accusing people because Romanus was inactive for the entirety of day 2.

That's interesting. What attention? Up until Crazy's new attack on me just now there hasn't been any attention to deflect, there's just been two votes vaguely sitting on me. Also, as even you've sort of noticed, my playstyle actually invites attention, so I sort of doubt I'm about deflecting it. (maybe deflecting suspicion, but that's actually a null tell reaction to things, natch) Also, why do you think I'm trying to "intimidate" you?

Don't kid yourself, you've already acknowledged that you were a likely lynch today. Whether or not it is a null tell, I think you're deflecting suspicion without any strong reason. You're right that attention wasn't the word I was looking for. Intimidation was probably also not the word I was looking for - I think you're attacking me so that I'm more likely to defend myself than attack you. This is tied in with you attempting to deflect suspicion.

Anti-town is (sadly) not the same as scummy.
At all.

What? How exactly is anti-town not scummy? Anything that is anti-town is, by definition, scummy.

Yes, very much so. I actually think he did a pretty decent job with a fair amount of his commentary. Where he face-flop-failed was by flaking out and not being around. The rest of the wagon build up on him is all about newbie nervousness and/or scum seeing somebody who was playing "different" so they could push suspicion on him.

I disagree, none of his play benefited town in any way. He advocated bandwagoning then became wishy-washy because he suddenly realised it's a newbie game, he made no solid case on any of the people he voted, he refused to give explanations for his actions, and you've already acknowledged you found his first vote scummy. What parts of his play were not scummy?

Well, I'm not likely to be doing things I think are scummy no matter which alignment I am, am I?

True, but the question is whether you're trying to establish yourself as town in people's eyes for no good reason (i.e. just because you're posting a lot of content).

what's your read on crazy's attack on me?

I don't think Zorblag's reads were unsupported (regardless of alignment, he wouldn't make them if he didn't feel they were somewhat supported), but I do think they weren't strongly supported.

I think your attempt to accuse him of trying to advocate a no lynch through me is very weak. At no point did it require only one vote for no lynch to go through, and he was still doing it after he unvoted. How could it be "hammered" with 3 votes? This is an example of you trying to deflect suspicion weakly.

I have a different interpretation of your posts so far, but I can see where he's coming from with this.

Or, if you were asking or my "read" in terms of whether I thought he was scum or town because of this, it would be null.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm using VCA because it's Day 3, the day VCA becomes really useful, and also because most of you guys talked theory all day every day and avoided any discussion that was actually likely to see scumtells really come out other than the position of your vote.

You're complaining about not getting reads when you skipped a lot of the posts in the game, and now you're looking at VCA (which, for the rest of us, conveniently doesn't tell us much about your player slot because you were inactive day two).

You can't say "don't kid yourself" and then also admit that you used the wrong words in your commentary and change them so that it totally changes the meaning of what you originally said.
And, yes, of course I'm attacking in order to put people on the defensive. Yes, I wish to shut down attacks on me. But that would be true whether I was town or scum - so don't kid yourself.
And none of it is deflection - I'm attacking the "scum reads" of me head on. I'm not deflecting anything, I'm killing.

The "don't kid yourself" part was directed at you saying your player slot had very little attention/suspicion, and I really don't see how it has anything to do with me using words incorrectly when you completely understood what I was implying with "attention". I'm not debating whether you would want to shut down attacks on yourself, or put others on the defensive, regardless of alignment, I'm saying you're doing it for weak reasons.

It's a difference that lots of people get confused by, but there's a reason we have a separate phrase for what anti-town is. Here's an example - Day 1, Newbie game, a player claims cop. Is that play scummy or anti-town? It *might* be scummy. It is *definitely* anti-town. See the difference? I would not vote to lynch that player Day 1, though I would hate him for his anti-town play.

By your definition of scummy, it

is

actually scummy because it helps scum. I understand you're trying to illustrate that anti-town play doesn't make someone scum, but anti-town play is still scummy. Or maybe you can think of a better example of play that is anti-town and doesn't help scum.

1. None of his play benefited town in any way
NONE of it? Seriously? He was so bad that every single post either hurt town or did nothing good?

He may have had some good individual posts, but when his posts were combined, it was anti-town play. For example.... (below)

2. He advocated bandwagoning
I advocate bandwagoning - I think bandwagoning is pro town.

3. became wishy-washy because he suddenly realised it's a newbie game
Yeah, that was weak and sloppy - but I'll agree in Newbies bandwagoning can be dangerous. I've done this exact same thing in one of my first IC games. I was town.

Yes, it was weak and sloppy, and what astonishes me is that he somehow didn't realise he was in a newbie game until the point he unvoted. Don't get me wrong; I'm not attacking him for advocating bandwagoning, I even stated day one I agree with him about it... It's the second part I have a problem with. I am not really in any state of mind right now to go and find this other game you're talking about and see whether you did do exactly what he did - can you link it, please?

4. he made no solid case on any of the people he voted
Has anyone in this game? I'm serious about that as a rebuttal - all the cases have been pretty weak in this game. The only one that might have been good was Prosaurus, but that was really because he was so newbie he melted down instantly once the pressure was on him.

Well, considering there have only been 3 real cases against anyone prior to today (cjdrum, prosaurus and romanus), and you don't think people were justified in voting Romanus, I can see why you think this. Still, even if every other case was relatively weak, his stood out to me as weakest because he was unwilling to justify it and it was based on a single post without regard to any of cjdrum's other behaviour...

5. he refused to give explanations for his actions
Specifically where did he do this? I don't recall this at all.

After his vote on cjdrum.

6. and you've already acknowledged you found his first vote scummy
Yes, but did you find it scummy? Did anyone else?

Not sure if you're serious, considering it was commented on by Misder, Prosaurus and I on day one, and possibly others, would have to re-read...

Actually I was asking you your read of crazy in general on a town to scum scale. Do you have a read on him? You seem to have avoided talking about him throughout the thread.

#318-334

My opinion hasn't changed much with his recent posts, I'm still reading his posts closely, I'm just pursuing a different lead right now.

Anyway I've been up all night so I'm dead for the next 7-8 hours. Looking forward to walls and walls of text when I wake up. Excuse any grammar/spelling errors, I can barely keep my eyes open right now.

[zMuffinMan]

er, well I had a long response but I accidentally closed my browser, so here's a short version from a really lazy person.

The part about scummy vs anti-town was because I think Romanus's anti-town behaviour was scummy, and you think it wasn't.

I looked at your first IC game, it was different, you didn't support quicklynches and you unvoted but still kept pressure. Romanus was suggesting quicklynches give damning evidence and supporting it happening, and also dropped pressure completely.

He didn't have a real case on cjdrum, he voted him based on a single post, which he called scummy while refusing to explain why it was scummy.

I think he realised there was no real support for a Misder lynch, and he would draw too much attention/suspicion if the quicklynch went through. I think he wanted his vote in a "better" or "safer" place. This is WIFOM, I know, but it's my interpretation of why he did it, and you will necessarily disagree with it because it's your player slot.

I stated my case on crazypianist, people are free to read it and form their own opinions if they disagree with mine. I didn't see a need in continuing down that line, and I feel I'm better off questioning you right now.

As for crazypianist's response to you, the only thing I didn't like about it was him suggesting you would vote for him if you believed it - for largely the same reason he kept telling me I should vote no lynch. The rest of his response I felt was justified, especially considering you going on about him putting pressure on me to no lynch.

More to come later, busy now.

[zMuffinMan]

I feel like you quoted me and then completely ignored the content of the quote.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Also what you did in your game is completely different to what Romanus did; you maintained pressure, Romanus didn't. I really don't see how you can compare the content of the post you linked to Romanus simply unvoting.

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop: By the way, in case you hadn't figured it out, that quote is what I was talking about with him being inconsistent and only later suddenly realising he was in a newbie game.

[zMuffinMan]

1. If he was scum what gain did he have in damaging and not pushing through a wagon on Misder (who I believe you join me in claiming is town)?

If your player slot is scum, it makes sense. Romanus didn't want a quick lynch to go through on Misder, because there was no real support for a lynch on him. The 3 people on the Misder wagon apart from cjdrum (who was on it purely for some sort of non-existent pressure and no real reason) were crazypianist, L and Romanus. There are various WIFOM possibilities I've considered around why he unvoted here. It makes more sense day three because of who is still alive and least likely to be town.

Do you agree with Romanus dropping the pressure on Misder altogether?

2. If his play is "sloppy" (which I'll agree with) what proves it's sloppy scum play as opposed to sloppy town play - how do you tell the difference in sloppiness?

I take into account all of the play I've seen from Romanus. I didn't see anything from Romanus that made me think he was town, I did see things from him that made me think he was scum.

Question: Romanus says L-1 pressure is good, cjdrum puts Misder at L-1 for this reason (not really creating any pressure, though), Romanus decides this is scummy, not just sloppy play. Do you think Romanus was justified in thinking this?

[zMuffinMan]

Fine, let's drop this discussion and leave it with - I very much disagree with your assessments.

That's fine, I think it's entirely irrelevant now because you can't explain Romanus's actions from his point of view, so it's pointless probing. The original point was that it wasn't as simple as not agreeing with how Romanus played the game - you were oversimplifying it.

Sure. If you look at the way cjdrum got on the wagon he basically absolved himself from the decision and was functionally getting on the wagon "because people said it should happen" and that sort of distancing from the decision is a scumtell. I could see pursuing that. You can't?

Well, is it a scum tell? It wasn't in this game, and I don't really have the experience to say whether or not it's a scum tell. To me, it looked more like cjdrum was just listening to what the IC was saying, and following his advice (or what he perceived the advice was). It wasn't particularly indicative of scumminess or towniness to me - and I know I've said this before and I'm just repeating myself now.

What's your opinion on crazy+L, Thor? Or Ant+L now.

[zMuffinMan]

I've had internet connectivity issues at home since yesterday which will hopefully be fixed by tonight. I don't really have much time to post right now, briefly skimmed the posts on this page, hope I'm not missing anything important

@Thor,

I don't think I was oversimplifying it at all - that was the case. Please refer to the circle joke from earlier - though it's a joke I also submit it's a concise and accurate assessment of how you're explaining his play was scummy. It really was just a basic belief that the game shouldn't be played that way, nothing more.

You asked me to give you reasons why the unvote on Misder makes sense as scum, I tell you why I think it makes sense as scum, you then accuse me of using circular reasoning (because I gave reasons it makes sense as scum).

I just ignored this because it would be absurd to respond to it, and you were completely ignoring everything else I said about it.

::shrug:: hindsight is 20/20, you probably should have said something then.

I don't recall being active at the time, and I don't think I predicted a quick lynch happening.


@Ant,

zMuffinMan seems like he is trying to discredit the doc claim today. I will admit though, I used to think that scum would sometimes purposely use a no-kill to create situations like this, I think I know better now. There was no reason the scum would try such a gambit when they didn't need to. Right now the game is in their favor and a risk like that is totally uncalled for imo.

Er, no. I've clearly said a few times now that I believe Wing's claim, but believing a claim and calling something confirmed are two different things. Considering pretty much everyone still alive, including yourself but excluding Wing, is considering the possibility that the night kill didn't occur, I don't see how you can make a case against me because of this.

The only reason I even brought the topic up is because your predecessor was speaking as though there were

no

possibility of anything other than a doc protect happening. This looks like a slip from scum because you (crazy)

knew

what happened.

D1 zMuffinMan was probably attacking the IC seeing as they might be the biggest threat

My original semi-RVS vote had nothing to do with him being IC - I didn't even know he was IC at the time, and I've mentioned this already. I just felt he was putting too much effort into reminding us that it was a random vote, when it was fairly obvious it was random. After that, I didn't see anything from him that I considered town play - just repeated anti-town play from his contradictory reason for an OMGUS to his inconsistency and poorly-reasoned attacks on other players.

@Misder,

@Muffin Why do you tunnel the IC so much?

What tunneling? Day 1, you could call that tunneling. Day 2 he was inactive. Day 3 I don't think I've been tunneling him at all - questioning him lately because he's the most active player, yes, but I don't consider that tunneling.

Will respond to more tonight when (if) my home net is fixed. In the mean time, going to request nobody quick lynches anyone.

[zMuffinMan]

!Vote: Ant_to_the_Max

[zMuffinMan]

Well, obviously I'm scum, Misder. And if Wing dies tonight with no one to protect him, the game is over. Sorry.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, I legitimately do have net problems at home, so I probably won't be posting again until it's fixed. But obviously I'm voting to submit a night kill on Wing with my partner.

[zMuffinMan]

Some things...

Day one I legitimately did not know Romanus was the IC when I began attacking him. But it suited me to stay on the wagon even after I realised it, not because he was the IC, but because people were suspicious of him - particularly Misder, who seemed to be thinking along the same lines as the townie I was trying to portray.

Day two, I would not have been on the Prosaurus wagon had I known Prosaurus would be hammered like that - it really wasn't done to create momentum. It really didn't matter to me who died day 2 - I didn't need to force a lynch on Prosaurus...

Night two, congrats to Wing, made it a lot harder - fairly sure it wouldn't have been difficult to get one of wing, crazy or romanus lynched day 3 had the kill gone through.

Day three, when I was talking about different possibilities it wasn't because I was scum - I would have done it as town, anyway. I don't really think there's anything wrong with discussing the idea of a gambit like what could have possibly happened. I only did it because it's something I would have put out there anyway, regardless of my alignment. It's also something I will consider doing as scum from now on purely because of the reaction it got in this game, regardless of how risky or stupid it may seem.

Also loved when Thor brought up VCA and pointed out the rarity of there being no mafia on a D1 lynch. I've seen some ICs in other games do it, and I was hoping someone did it in this game too.

[zMuffinMan]

Actually, ant, Romanus started flaking end of day one (it's just day 2 was so short that it was only noticeable by the time day 2 ended) and Zorblag replaced about halfway through night 2 and we (meaning L and I) were made aware that the game would resume at the deadline of night 2 because Zorblag said he'd be ready by then (we wanted to end night early), so it would have been very easy for Zorblag as scum to scheme something like that.