Newbie 1082: No Country for Old Mafia - Game Over!

[Thor665]

Hey Wing, what's your read on Muffin and L - do you see either of them as likely town for any reason?

[-L-]

@Thor: why or what is giving you scummy reads on me? I'd like to handle each.

[Thor665]

You're scum because I believe Winged. You;re less scum than Muffin and crazy because of VCA. That's all I've really got tight now - I'm leaning slightly less scum on you just because you were actually so aggressive at Winged and I wouldn't expect mafia not to believe the real doc claim, and 'paranoia as a town tell' hasn't been too bad to me over the years.

You're still a potential scum because I can't ignore that Zorblag was calling crazyp town - and I trust Zorblag's reads. But he did do it off a meta reason, and I think that was very weak and sloppy at the same time. I also had Muffin as one of my strong reads moving forward from Day 1, so that's still holding me back a touch. For my money I still need to get more out of crazy and get more out of people about crazy before I start feeling more sure of my reads.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm using VCA because it's Day 3, the day VCA becomes really useful, and also because most of you guys talked theory all day every day and avoided any discussion that was actually likely to see scumtells really come out other than the position of your vote.

You're complaining about not getting reads when you skipped a lot of the posts in the game, and now you're looking at VCA (which, for the rest of us, conveniently doesn't tell us much about your player slot because you were inactive day two).

You can't say "don't kid yourself" and then also admit that you used the wrong words in your commentary and change them so that it totally changes the meaning of what you originally said.
And, yes, of course I'm attacking in order to put people on the defensive. Yes, I wish to shut down attacks on me. But that would be true whether I was town or scum - so don't kid yourself.
And none of it is deflection - I'm attacking the "scum reads" of me head on. I'm not deflecting anything, I'm killing.

The "don't kid yourself" part was directed at you saying your player slot had very little attention/suspicion, and I really don't see how it has anything to do with me using words incorrectly when you completely understood what I was implying with "attention". I'm not debating whether you would want to shut down attacks on yourself, or put others on the defensive, regardless of alignment, I'm saying you're doing it for weak reasons.

It's a difference that lots of people get confused by, but there's a reason we have a separate phrase for what anti-town is. Here's an example - Day 1, Newbie game, a player claims cop. Is that play scummy or anti-town? It *might* be scummy. It is *definitely* anti-town. See the difference? I would not vote to lynch that player Day 1, though I would hate him for his anti-town play.

By your definition of scummy, it

is

actually scummy because it helps scum. I understand you're trying to illustrate that anti-town play doesn't make someone scum, but anti-town play is still scummy. Or maybe you can think of a better example of play that is anti-town and doesn't help scum.

1. None of his play benefited town in any way
NONE of it? Seriously? He was so bad that every single post either hurt town or did nothing good?

He may have had some good individual posts, but when his posts were combined, it was anti-town play. For example.... (below)

2. He advocated bandwagoning
I advocate bandwagoning - I think bandwagoning is pro town.

3. became wishy-washy because he suddenly realised it's a newbie game
Yeah, that was weak and sloppy - but I'll agree in Newbies bandwagoning can be dangerous. I've done this exact same thing in one of my first IC games. I was town.

Yes, it was weak and sloppy, and what astonishes me is that he somehow didn't realise he was in a newbie game until the point he unvoted. Don't get me wrong; I'm not attacking him for advocating bandwagoning, I even stated day one I agree with him about it... It's the second part I have a problem with. I am not really in any state of mind right now to go and find this other game you're talking about and see whether you did do exactly what he did - can you link it, please?

4. he made no solid case on any of the people he voted
Has anyone in this game? I'm serious about that as a rebuttal - all the cases have been pretty weak in this game. The only one that might have been good was Prosaurus, but that was really because he was so newbie he melted down instantly once the pressure was on him.

Well, considering there have only been 3 real cases against anyone prior to today (cjdrum, prosaurus and romanus), and you don't think people were justified in voting Romanus, I can see why you think this. Still, even if every other case was relatively weak, his stood out to me as weakest because he was unwilling to justify it and it was based on a single post without regard to any of cjdrum's other behaviour...

5. he refused to give explanations for his actions
Specifically where did he do this? I don't recall this at all.

After his vote on cjdrum.

6. and you've already acknowledged you found his first vote scummy
Yes, but did you find it scummy? Did anyone else?

Not sure if you're serious, considering it was commented on by Misder, Prosaurus and I on day one, and possibly others, would have to re-read...

Actually I was asking you your read of crazy in general on a town to scum scale. Do you have a read on him? You seem to have avoided talking about him throughout the thread.

#318-334

My opinion hasn't changed much with his recent posts, I'm still reading his posts closely, I'm just pursuing a different lead right now.

Anyway I've been up all night so I'm dead for the next 7-8 hours. Looking forward to walls and walls of text when I wake up. Excuse any grammar/spelling errors, I can barely keep my eyes open right now.

[-L-]

Just curious - but what does VCA mean? The wiki had nothing on it. :\

[Misder]

VCA- Vote Count Analysis

And yes, I'm alive irl still...
This is what I see:
Thor vs Muffin, highly likely that they are not both mafia
Thor- leaning towards town, also because I felt town from Zorblag too; i find constant hunting in his posts
crazy- still my top suspect; still going with similar playstyle as his previous game, his scumhunting feels fake, recently been really defensive without probing at all
L- looks town to me, based on his constant probing, and looking for possibilities in all cases, which scum is unlikely to do since they know what actually happened; one thing to note is that early day 3, he could have been copfishing; also

@Thor: why or what is giving you scummy reads on me? I'd like to handle each.

is interesting, just because I do that as mafia, and it seems similar in tone
muffin- very aggressive; i feel consistent with day 1; town in my eyes
wing- sigh, only doc claim. i get a bit of scum feeling off of him though from day 3- not aggressive as he usually is

Here's something to consider- Wing + someone (most likely crazy) as scum
Wing seemed eager to mass roleclaim. If scum had planned a no kill night 3, then a fake doc claim would be awesome; even if there was a real doc, then doc would be cced; we cant do anything about it because it is mylo; 50% hitting scum- and even if we do hit scum, there is still one left and it would still stay mylo (other 50% is ofc a loss for town)
I thought about this before, but I didn't really see Wing as scummy until day 3, and no one else seems to be scummy

I would vote for crazypianist- but that would put him at L-2, and I'm not confident that I will be active enough to unvote him if I feel that actual scum (assuming crazy not scum) bandwagon fast and we lose

[Thor665]

You're complaining about not getting reads when you skipped a lot of the posts in the game, and now you're looking at VCA (which, for the rest of us, conveniently doesn't tell us much about your player slot because you were inactive day two).

1. Even if I read those posts I'd be complaining - trust me, those posts are meaningless. Go dig out some brilliance from them if you can and report back, until you do I'm proud I skipped them.
2. "Conveniently" it doesn't tell you much because players bull rushed to a lynch without demanding anything from this slot. You can't blame me for town playing poorly Day 2, I wasn't here to stop it. Trust me, I'm not happy about Day 2.

I'm not debating whether you would want to shut down attacks on yourself, or put others on the defensive, regardless of alignment, I'm saying you're doing it for weak reasons.

And I disagree. Let's cut the circle short and end it.

By your definition of scummy, it

is

actually scummy because it helps scum. I understand you're trying to illustrate that anti-town play doesn't make someone scum, but anti-town play is still scummy. Or maybe you can think of a better example of play that is anti-town and doesn't help scum.

No, it's not scummy because it helps scum.
It's anti-town because it hurts town.
Just because something hurts town (which is an aid to scum) does not make it help scum. For instance, the cop who claimed, if he's scum it doesn't help him because town is very likely to kill that player. So if he's scum he's an idiot. The only way it "helps" scum is if the cop claiming is actually town (and it is debatable if it helps more/less if the player is actually the cop), that's what makes the play anti-town. That's why anti-town play is not a brilliant reason to lynch someone. At the very least it highlights why 'anti-town does not = scum' which is the point I was making. We're also just starting to debate theory - why don't you restate the original point you were trying to make so we can refocus to something that will help town, because this discussion is becoming anti-town.

Yes, it was weak and sloppy, and what astonishes me is that he somehow didn't realise he was in a newbie game until the point he unvoted. Don't get me wrong; I'm not attacking him for advocating bandwagoning, I even stated day one I agree with him about it... It's the second part I have a problem with. I am not really in any state of mind right now to go and find this other game you're talking about and see whether you did do exactly what he did - can you link it, please?

Pssssh, I'm too lazy too. It's in my Wiki and I have it labeled as the first game I ICed, if you actually believe I'd bother making something like that up I think you should do the work.
You did attack him for the bandwagoning thing when you made your list of his bad play. I'm happy you're rescinding it.
Do you really think he "just remembered" or do you think he got nervous with how the newbies might respond? More importantly, if he was scum, what was his andvantage to unvote? As I recall the wagon was on a town, so scum Romanus unvoted to...prevent the lynch of a town player...and the quick end of a day...and the easy setup of accussing the town who quickhammered of being scummy...??? Yeah, BRILLIANT tactical plot on Romanus' part, why he extended the day, and made you guys freak out at him and redirect off the town who was going to be lynched, man, what a great scum plan. Luckily you figured it out <--- this is probably sarcasm. Seriously, scumtells are more than a big list with check boxes, you need to look for the scum motivation to find scumtells. You don't have a scum motivation here, at all.

Well, considering there have only been 3 real cases against anyone prior to today (cjdrum, prosaurus and romanus), and you don't think people were justified in voting Romanus, I can see why you think this. Still, even if every other case was relatively weak, his stood out to me as weakest because he was unwilling to justify it and it was based on a single post without regard to any of cjdrum's other behaviour...

Actually he did explain that, (below).
And the case was no weaker (or stronger) than pretty much any of the other cases done in this thread - and I'm horrified you believe there were only three and did nothing about that.

5. he refused to give explanations for his actions
Specifically where did he do this? I don't recall this at all.

After his vote on cjdrum.

In ISO in his very next post he explains why he didn't explain (and even points out that his case is still the one he made initially when he first voted cjdrum, so....??? No, he actually explained it all pretty darn clearly.

Not sure if you're serious, considering it was commented on by Misder, Prosaurus and I on day one, and possibly others, would have to re-read...

I wasn't sure you were serious when you were trying to use me to make a case on my own slot.

Actually I was asking you your read of crazy in general on a town to scum scale. Do you have a read on him? You seem to have avoided talking about him throughout the thread.

#318-334

More like 3 posts, but sure. For a guy who you said had done *nothing* pro town and of whom you've had no opinion changes I really haven't felt any pressure from you towards him. I've certainly received far more attention (admittedly I'm actually posting in thread, so that does help) but you've barely blown a raspberry at him. How do you feel about his response to me when I called him the most likely scum?

@L - Vote Count Analysis - I called it that when I first used it, and have used it multiple times while talking to Muffin. Did you just notice it now?

[-L-]

I saw you use vote count analysis, yes; I did not relate the two until I read zmuffinman's clarification. Call me dumb.

[zMuffinMan]

er, well I had a long response but I accidentally closed my browser, so here's a short version from a really lazy person.

The part about scummy vs anti-town was because I think Romanus's anti-town behaviour was scummy, and you think it wasn't.

I looked at your first IC game, it was different, you didn't support quicklynches and you unvoted but still kept pressure. Romanus was suggesting quicklynches give damning evidence and supporting it happening, and also dropped pressure completely.

He didn't have a real case on cjdrum, he voted him based on a single post, which he called scummy while refusing to explain why it was scummy.

I think he realised there was no real support for a Misder lynch, and he would draw too much attention/suspicion if the quicklynch went through. I think he wanted his vote in a "better" or "safer" place. This is WIFOM, I know, but it's my interpretation of why he did it, and you will necessarily disagree with it because it's your player slot.

I stated my case on crazypianist, people are free to read it and form their own opinions if they disagree with mine. I didn't see a need in continuing down that line, and I feel I'm better off questioning you right now.

As for crazypianist's response to you, the only thing I didn't like about it was him suggesting you would vote for him if you believed it - for largely the same reason he kept telling me I should vote no lynch. The rest of his response I felt was justified, especially considering you going on about him putting pressure on me to no lynch.

More to come later, busy now.

[Fenchurch]

Tenth Vote Count of Day Three:

Thor665 - 1 (crazypianist1116)
crazypianist1116 - 1 (WingDamage9001)

Not Voting: 4 (Misder, zMuffinMan, Thor665, [L])

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

crazypianist1116 has been prodded.

[crazypianist1116]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to

Request Replacement

.
I'm just taking on too much stuff and something's gotta give.

[Thor665]

@crazyp - Blarg! Hate you!

I looked at your first IC game, it was different, you didn't support quicklynches and you unvoted but still kept pressure. Romanus was suggesting quicklynches give damning evidence and supporting it happening, and also dropped pressure completely.

Here's the post

Note the relevant commentary "normally I WOULDN'T do this" ('this' being unvoting at L-1) But, I add in that newbies are scary and can hammer when you don't expect it.

Romanus said bandwagoning up to L-1 was good.
He got nervous and unvoted because it was a newbie.

How is that, in any way, not the same mindset of bandwagonging = good, L-1 in newbie = scary that I also presented.

Thor's alignment...you guessed it, town.

[zMuffinMan]

I feel like you quoted me and then completely ignored the content of the quote.

Let's look at it this way: What real danger is there from a speed lynch? Afraid the scum will come out and get a townie without the town being able to stop it? Um, it's not like we won't know who did it, and they will have a lot to answer for if the speedlynch flips townie. A speed lynch on page 4. I would love it. I would think the scum would have just outed themselves.

Also what you did in your game is completely different to what Romanus did; you maintained pressure, Romanus didn't. I really don't see how you can compare the content of the post you linked to Romanus simply unvoting.

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop: By the way, in case you hadn't figured it out, that quote is what I was talking about with him being inconsistent and only later suddenly realising he was in a newbie game.

[Thor665]

Take the quote above.

Add in an opinion that newbies are sort of like rabbits on crack at a fireworks display when it comes to their vote.

Take a wild stab at why he changed his mind about it being a good idea. It's a really normal reaction from more experienced players to go 'wait a minute...' when considering newbie actions. Basically the first time I was ever lynched (Day 1 at that - in fact it's that same game, though I am officially a mod kill due to mod...well...stupidity (his words)) was in a Newbie game, and it was because I did stuff that would have made me look uber town and all the newbies went "obv. scum is obvious!" and started voting me. The play in newbie games is very much different from the play elsewhere on site. I find his change of tune perfectly normal in that regard, and point to how I had a situation where I also acted in a way I normally wouldn't have *because it was a newbie game*.

As I said, it seems perfectly normal to me. All you've been going with is some sort of soft 'hypocrisy' thing with him changing his views. So now let's challenge it again;

1. If he was scum what gain did he have in damaging and not pushing through a wagon on Misder (who I believe you join me in claiming is town)?

2. If his play is "sloppy" (which I'll agree with) what proves it's sloppy scum play as opposed to sloppy town play - how do you tell the difference in sloppiness?

[Fenchurch]

Sorry guys, I'm going to have to

Request Replacement

.
I'm just taking on too much stuff and something's gotta give.

No worries crazy, thanks for letting us know. I'll start looking now.

[zMuffinMan]

1. If he was scum what gain did he have in damaging and not pushing through a wagon on Misder (who I believe you join me in claiming is town)?

If your player slot is scum, it makes sense. Romanus didn't want a quick lynch to go through on Misder, because there was no real support for a lynch on him. The 3 people on the Misder wagon apart from cjdrum (who was on it purely for some sort of non-existent pressure and no real reason) were crazypianist, L and Romanus. There are various WIFOM possibilities I've considered around why he unvoted here. It makes more sense day three because of who is still alive and least likely to be town.

Do you agree with Romanus dropping the pressure on Misder altogether?

2. If his play is "sloppy" (which I'll agree with) what proves it's sloppy scum play as opposed to sloppy town play - how do you tell the difference in sloppiness?

I take into account all of the play I've seen from Romanus. I didn't see anything from Romanus that made me think he was town, I did see things from him that made me think he was scum.

Question: Romanus says L-1 pressure is good, cjdrum puts Misder at L-1 for this reason (not really creating any pressure, though), Romanus decides this is scummy, not just sloppy play. Do you think Romanus was justified in thinking this?

[Fenchurch]

Ant_to_the_max replaces crazypianist1116!

Eleventh Vote Count of Day Three:

Thor665 - 1 (Ant_to_the_max)
Ant_to_the_max - 1 (WingDamage9001)

Not Voting: 4 (Misder, zMuffinMan, Thor665, [L])

With six alive, it will take four votes to lynch someone.

Deadline is: Monday, 25th April at 8:50 am GMT.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Hey guys!

So I have pretty much read/skimmed the whole game last night so I know were it is at. Unfortunantly, you will have to allow me time to go back and make sure I have what was said correctly paired to the player who said it. I might get a small post off this morning, but more will come this afternoon

[-L-]

Hi hi

[Thor665]

If your player slot is scum, it makes sense. Romanus didn't want a quick lynch to go through on Misder, because there was no real support for a lynch on him.

Nah, if a quick lynch went through than there was support. Either there was no support *or* he didn't want a quick lynch to go through - not both.

Do you agree with Romanus dropping the pressure on Misder altogether?

I would have lynched Misder in a second because I found Misder scummy. I only agree with Romanus dropping it altogether if he started to get a town read on Misder, and I can't tell you if he did or didn't.

I take into account all of the play I've seen from Romanus. I didn't see anything from Romanus that made me think he was town, I did see things from him that made me think he was scum.

Why is Romanus scum?
Because of this stopping of a wagon thing with Misder.
Why is this action from Romanus scummy?
Because Romanus is scum.

The wheels on the bus go round and round.
Fine, let's drop this discussion and leave it with - I very much disagree with your assessments.

Question: Romanus says L-1 pressure is good, cjdrum puts Misder at L-1 for this reason (not really creating any pressure, though), Romanus decides this is scummy, not just sloppy play. Do you think Romanus was justified in thinking this?

Sure. If you look at the way cjdrum got on the wagon he basically absolved himself from the decision and was functionally getting on the wagon "because people said it should happen" and that sort of distancing from the decision is a scumtell. I could see pursuing that. You can't?

[Thor665]

Hey guys!

So I have pretty much read/skimmed the whole game last night so I know were it is at. Unfortunantly, you will have to allow me time to go back and make sure I have what was said correctly paired to the player who said it. I might get a small post off this morning, but more will come this afternoon

I would like some response to my questions to crazypianist from you - specifically as regards the VCA. His replacing out dongs me out of getting a reaction to his emotional outburst, so now I get to start over fresh with you, so let's pick it up from square one.

Hi hi

Where are you currently in your thought process? You appear to be scumhunting no one...what is your current strategy and how will it help town win?

[-L-]

Restating opinions is not the same as scumhunting. I'm waiting for more from Misder, Wing, and crazy's slot before continuing. You are aggressive, yes, Thor, but it seems more like you are spinning wheels in mud rather than getting anywhere for town.

[Thor665]

If you think I'm spinning wheels then you aren't reading clearly enough.

What "more" are you looking for from Misder, Wing, and crazy/Ant? I don't recall you asking them any questions that are currently outstanding...or are you just sort of hoping they'll show up and one or two of them will just claim scum or something?

[zMuffinMan]

Fine, let's drop this discussion and leave it with - I very much disagree with your assessments.

That's fine, I think it's entirely irrelevant now because you can't explain Romanus's actions from his point of view, so it's pointless probing. The original point was that it wasn't as simple as not agreeing with how Romanus played the game - you were oversimplifying it.

Sure. If you look at the way cjdrum got on the wagon he basically absolved himself from the decision and was functionally getting on the wagon "because people said it should happen" and that sort of distancing from the decision is a scumtell. I could see pursuing that. You can't?

Well, is it a scum tell? It wasn't in this game, and I don't really have the experience to say whether or not it's a scum tell. To me, it looked more like cjdrum was just listening to what the IC was saying, and following his advice (or what he perceived the advice was). It wasn't particularly indicative of scumminess or towniness to me - and I know I've said this before and I'm just repeating myself now.

What's your opinion on crazy+L, Thor? Or Ant+L now.