Team Mafia General Thread

zoraster · Post Post #0 (isolation #0) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:16 am

Full Rules Are Below

Team Mafia's Sign Up Information Can Be Found Here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3005101

Team Mafia: Pick Your Power (Zoraster modding, designed by Hoopla and SpyreX)
Team Mafia: Aggressive Mind Games Mafia (designed and modded by The Fonz, Normal Game)
Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia (modded by TheButtonmen, open mountainous)
Team Mafia: Psychic Mafia (modded by dramonic, designed by dramonic and Vi, Theme Game)

Spoiler: Game Summaries

Pick Your PowerDESIGNED BY: SpyreX and Hoopla
MODERATED BY: Zoraster

Pick your power is a popular game that was designed originally by SpyreX as a large theme game. The game is open, and this game was designed by Hoopla and SpyreX.

The draft: Before the game proper starts, each player will PM me with two numbers, 1-15 (X,Y).

1. The lowest unique X number will get first pick. The next lowest unique X number will get second, etc.
2. After all unique X numbers are exhausted, all two-way X ties will have their Y numbers compared. The lowest unique Y number will get the next pick, the lowest Y number after that will get the next pick, etc.
3. After all two-way X ties with unique Y numbers are exhausted, the same is done with three way ties, then four way ties, etc.
4. Players with the same X and Y value will be ranked by the lowest X value then one will be picked to pick above the other randomly.

For example:
Player 1: 4,9
Player 2: 1,4
Player 3: 3,5
Player 4: 1,7
Player 5: 1,4
Player 6: 15,15
Player 7: 15,14

Would have the result of:
1st Pick: Player 3 (3,5)
2nd Pick: Player 4 (4,9)
3rd Pick: Player 7 (15,14)
4th Pick: Player 6 (15,15)
5th Pick: Player 4 (1,7)
6th Pick: Player 2 (1,4) <--- Random Winner
7th Pick: Player 5 (1,4) <--- Random loser

After everyone PMs me, the draft results will be published. At this point, every player must PM me with a role from the roles available they'd like to have. If someone above you picked the role, you will be vanilla.

The Roles:
Role Cop
Tracker
Jailkeeper
Goon Cop (sees if someone is a vanilla goon or not -- mafia with a PR will come up as "not goon")
3-Shot Roleblocker (not limited to just one shot a night)
Night 2 Vig
Night 3 Vig
Gunsmith (sees guns on all mafia plus Goon Cop, Role Cop, N2 Vig, N3 Vig)

Any role received by the mafia will be IN ADDITION TO their ability to kill. Thus, any mafia member may both kill AND use their role in any night.

White Flag MafiaMODERATED BY: TheButtonmen

This version of White Flag Mafia is mountainous (i.e. there are no power roles). In White Flag Mafia, the town wins when two out of the three mafia members have been eliminated.

Aggressive Mind Games MafiaDESIGNED AND MODERATED BY: The Fonz

This is simply a normal closed game that follows the normal rules.

Psychic MafiaDESIGNED BY: dramonic and Vi
MODERATED BY: dramonic

This is the "theme game." And, like many dramonic and Vi games, it's not simple. I'll let them tell you how much they want to in their game thread, but for now I'm merely authorized to inform you that the town are called Benefice and the Malefice are scum. Like the other games, there are no third parties in this game. Finally, "Communion" is similar to DAY.

EDIT: Big boo boo. Fixed communion from being similar to night to being similar to day.

Spoiler: Full Player List by Game

Spoiler: Full Player List by Alphabetical

Teams:

Evolution
Failboat on a river of blood
Punny Pony Party People
Radioactive Sparkly Kittens
Ragnarök
Screaming Death Clan
Team Fra Fra
Team http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHpaX5af8xc
The Mauve Avengers
The Four Horsemen of Apocalypse
The Kliq
The Wolf Pack
Zilch

Current Replacement List

Please note that teams are not obligated to choose their replacement by this list, but teams may consult it to find someone. In the event of a mod replacement, the mod will try the first person on the list to replace in.

gorilla
Regfan
gandalf5166
lewarcher82
popsofctown
thelonging
mothrax
MagnaOfIllusion
ooba
RedCoyote
iamusername
quilford
Rhinox
xvart
vezokpiraka
c-worl
Magua
zMuffinMan
AurorusVox
chesskid3
StefanB
vollkan
shaft.ed
Bunnylover
Rayfrost
implosion
Gammagooey (PYP)
AlmasterGM

--

GENERAL TEAM MAFIA RULES

Points

Victory Points for PYP, Normal, and Dramonic games:

Win Points: +23 points to winning team
Town Wins with four or more town players alive in the game: +2 points
Mafia Wins with two or more mafia players surviving: +2 points

Victory Points for White Flag:

+25 points to the winning team

Replacements

Team replaces their own player: 0 points
Moderator

seeks

a replacement for a player: -2 points to that player’s team

Continual Inactivity

At the game’s mod’s recommendation and with Zoraster’s approval, if a player is continually inactive (e.g. posts once every 5 days merely to avoid replacement), he may be replaced as above at a penalty of two points to his team. A single prod dodge won't bring this on someone, but repeated avoidance of posting will.

Talking About Ongoing Games:

Warning: -0 points
Each Subsequent Violation: -1 point
Blatant Violation (e.g. a large post quoting and analyzing another game): -2 points with no warning.

Modkills/Forced Replacements

For behavior related modkills and forced replacements, a penalty of 10 points will be assessed to the team. If necessary, a modkilled player may be prevented from winning with his team. This is a potential 35 point swing.

Other Penalties

The moderators reserve the right to assess penalties against a team as necessary up to 10 points.

Winning the Game

1. The team with the most points at the end wins the game.
2. If two or more teams have a tied score between 94 and 100, they will be crowned co-champions.
2. If two or more teams tie for the highest score and have 93 or fewer points, the four mods of the games (Zoraster, dramonic, The Fonz and TheButtonmen) will collectively decide the winner based on each individual’s performance and how well each team worked together.

Captains

1. Each team must have a captain. If it has not otherwise been indicated, it will be assumed the person who submitted the team is the captain.
2. For all Team Mafia-wide communications with Zoraster (such as role selection, replacements, etc.), the Captain should be the only one to PM Zoraster unless he is unavailable.
3. The captain makes the final decisions on all team matters. No mod will arbitrate disagreements among the players.
4. If a Captain needs to be replaced (e.g. he goes AWOL or has engaged in modkillable behavior in his game), the team should unanimously pick one of their own to step in as Captain. This should be relayed to Zoraster.

Talking About Other Games

You may not talk about other ongoing games in your own game. This includes other games within this competition. You may discuss the overall standing of other teams. And of course you may discuss all of the ongoing games in your Team’s QT. This rule disallows using a game thread to relay messages between a non-team member and a team member not in the game.

Deadlines

Each game will use a two week bankable deadline system with a maximum of one week banked. Days banked will be rounded to the nearest 12 hours. Deadlines that would otherwise fall on Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, or Christmas will be extended 24 hours.

Nights will have a deadline of 48 hours unless it falls on a weekend in which case the deadline will be the following Monday at 11am.

Deadline shift for Goofbash

Goofbash is scheduled to take place from June 15-22nd. On June 15th, three additional days will be added to the time bank (for a maximum of seven days banked).

Any night that falls between June 15th and June 22nd will take four days rather than the normal two.

Players who have reported themselves at Goofbash to Zoraster will have nine days (rather than the typical seven) before being force replaced by their mod during Goofbash. No points will be deducted for inactivity for these players.

Team QTs

1. Each team will be provided with a QT once the sign-ups are finalized. No other communication between teammates about any of the games or the overall competition should be made outside of the QT. Conversations pre-signup in another QT should be moved over to the new one (the mods have 13 of these to keep track of, so they need to be uniform).
2. You may copy INTO a QT from a game thread, but you may not copy and paste OUT OF a game thread from the QT. In other words, you cannot coach someone in what they should say in a game exactly. You may provide pointers, reads, etc. but may not write their posts for them.
3. QTs remain open at all times, day or night. Dead players may still participate in the QT.
4. Only one player per player slot may speak in the QT at any one time. In other words, a replacement may speak in the QT, but the person he replaced may not. Or another way: only four players may speak in a QT at any one time.

Team Prodding

Players may prod their own teammates by PM. Zoraster should be CCed onto any prod you send, and the prod should include no information other than telling them to post in their game and/or read the QT. The moderators may prod players as well.

Replacements

1. Teams should replace their own players. They may contact anyone who has not already participated in the game as a player or mod. The sign-up thread is a good place to find individuals.
2. If seven consecutive real time days (not including nights) go by without a player posting, a replacement will be sought for the team by the moderator. This comes at a penalty to the team. Dead players are not expected to maintain activity.
3. Dead players MAY be replaced.
4. Each team may do the following ONCE: use an already dead player to replace in for another player on their team. Once this option has been used, it may never be used again, even by the same player.
5. Other than as excepted in 4, once a player has played in a player slot, they may not play in another.

Role Selection

Each team will be informed of the four roles available to it, one for each of its game. It will have two days to decide which of its players will go into which game. For example, Team A might get the following PM:

Team RolesHello Team A,

The following are your roles. Please respond by PM to Zoraster with which player will go into which game:

White Flag Mafia: Vanilla Townie
Normal Game: Sane Cop
Pick Your Power: Mafia (Roles to be decided by draft)
Theme Game: Town Role Cop

You have until May 9th to PM Zoraster with your selections.

Before the game starts each individual player will get a Role PM as normal.

Games

There will be four games played. Each adhere to the following criteria:
1. There are three mafia and ten town members.
2. There are two week bankable deadlines with one week max banked
3. The setup has been, to the extent possible, balanced to a 50/50 win rate.
4. There are no third parties.

Game Descriptions

The following are the four games to be played:
1. White Flag: A mountainous (no Power role) setup, town wins when they have eliminated all but one mafia member.
2. Normal Game: follows the setup guidelines listed in the wiki.
3. Pick Your Power: A version of the SpyreX setup where players pick their power.
4. Dramonic’s Theme Game: More details to come

Individual Game Moderators

Within their individual game, each mod has considerable latitude to moderate as they see fit. While actions affecting points will have to be approved by Zoraster, it will be rare that he disagrees with the moderator. Each mod may impose additional rules as he sees fit so long as it doesn’t contradict the rules here. For example rules on voting style, coarse language, twilight chatting, “bah” posts, etc. are all at each mod’s discretion.[/spoiler]

zoraster · Post Post #2 (isolation #1) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 10:43 am

well that's not what I have in mind

I think being able to pick your own team provides some cohesion to the four games that's needed here. Although some (many?) of the teams will likely be filled with solo-players, having some teams that rely on each other, know each other, etc. will provide some community aspect to the game.

zoraster · Post Post #10 (isolation #2) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:52 pm

dramonic is designing it now, we'll have more details on it later.

zoraster · Post Post #12 (isolation #3) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:33 pm

Yup. What'll happen is when sign-ups are done your team will get a PM with three roles from White Flag, Normal and the Theme games. Your team will then decide which of its players goes into those three games and the fourth game (PYP).

So for example your team might get a PM that has the role PM for a Vanilla in White Flag, a Mafia Role Cop in the Normal game and a Picturesque Mammoth in the Theme game, and you can think to yourself "Well Joe is a great scum hunter who is rarely lynched early, so let's put him in the vanilla role. Tom is good at scum, so he gets the role cop, and Willy is great at weird theme games and roles. And I'll be good at PYP, so I'll go there"

zoraster · Post Post #19 (isolation #4) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:59 pm

Herodotus wrote:Have you considered removing the "Perfect" Scum Victory category? I think teams with higher numbers of scum already have an advantage both from game balance and from a smaller group gaining points with them. It also changes how the game will be played.

I can't say for sure yet as the games aren't finished being designed, but the scum teams are likely to consist of the same number of players in all games (3), if that's what you mean. That's not for sure as Fonz and Dram still need to make their games and they may (a) want games with 2 or 4 scum or (b) not want people to know how many scum there are. But given that all games will have 13 players and all games will only be town vs. a single mafia, 3 is a pretty safe number to guess across all games.

That said, yes it'd be true that a game with 3 vigilante type players, even if balanced, is less likely to be a perfect scum victory than white flag mountainous.

Or does that not address your concern? The points part is the part of this whole thing that we're the least certain of.

I do intend for the points to somewhat change the dynamics of the game. I hope not too drastically, but if players want to go for more points and avoid bussing, well, I think that actually ties the games together better.

zoraster · Post Post #22 (isolation #5) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:09 pm

could you explain that further, klaz.

My assumption, perhaps faulty, is that if teams act differently than they do normally because of the team aspect, it will be to advance their own team's chance of winning. They might sabotage another team's chance of winning, but only insofar as they think it'll help them in the end. If you're on a scumteam with someone else, there's very little incentive to kill your teammates. There's a very minor incentive to survive to lylo, but it's very slight because there's also a chance you lose in lylo and lose a point; in addition, if you get sent to 3 person lylo, your points overall are 3 instead of 6, and unless it's the final game, it seems unlikely you'd throw away points on the offchance someone on your scumteam is going to beat your team.

zoraster · Post Post #25 (isolation #6) » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:19 pm

Herodotus wrote:@zoraster:
I mean that if one of the 13 teams gets 3 or 4 scum roles, that team probably has an advantage because scum generally win more often. Also, a perfect scum victory isn't nearly as impressive as a perfect town victory, nor is it probably any more difficult to achieve than a near-perfect victory.

Also, whether their team is intact is something that a given scum player can't necessarily control, while a given townie can do a lot more to prevent mislynches.

Ah. I see. I'll answer this in a few points:

1. I did discuss the possibility of a team getting an overwhelming number of scum or town roles before. The consensus then was that while it's fairly likely at least one team will get 3 scum roles, that's not necessarily a great advantage. First, we're going to do our best to actually balance the games 50/50. We may not succeed, but that's our hope. Second, it's a high risk high reward venture. In any game where you're scum, if you win you've improved your team's standing as compared to most other teams. But the flip side is also true. If you lose, most other teams will have improved their standing as opposed to your team.

2. I agree the town perfect game is considerably more difficult to achieve, which is why I made it worth 12 points compared to 10 for the scum victory. That's probably not even enough to take into account how much harder it is. But the problem is basically this: I need the points to be mostly symmetric for this to be fair. If I offer a perfect game incentive for town, I should also have something similar for scum.

To put it another way, I want to expected value of drawing scum to be equal to that of drawing town. If I've balanced the game 50/50 and there's a perfect game bonus for town but not scum, then the expected value of getting town becomes higher than scum, and that makes the overall setup flawed.

zoraster · Post Post #36 (isolation #7) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:55 am

GreyICE wrote:I don't mean to be an ass, but why is Dramonic designing this theme game? Has Vi or anyone reviewed it?

The last few Dramonic themes have been fun, perhaps, but balance was fucked to shit.

It's funny you should mention Vi. I was this close to selecting him to do the theme (if he wanted to). We've worked together on games with success before, although in ways that are often exhausting for both of us. In the end I decided against it for a few reasons I won't go into here, but the main reason I didn't was I wanted him to play. I think his participation as a team captain would help the game as much as having him design. Speaking of which, I should probably tell him he needs to do that

This is actually something that I've gone through with a LOT of potential mods (e.g. Hoopla would be a great choice for the normal mod, but I hope she'll play). When you need to fill 52 slots, each potential great player you use to mod is a big hit.

As for dramonic's games. First, I like the creativity of his games. I agree his focus generally isn't on balance. However, I'll be heavily involved in the design and balance of his game, and I think we can manage to capture his creativity and temper that with my focus on balance. Fonz is a new addition to the team, but he'll certainly be welcome to offer his insights.

That said, it'll likely be harder to know whether it's balanced than our other games. I wanted a variety of games played ranging from mountainous (white flag) to a normal game to a "normal" popular theme game to something crazy. Dramonic provides the crazy.

shaft wrote:1) Scoring will effect the outcome of the game differently than the roles wincon. I would take this into consideration as to whether or not it is a bug or a feature.

It's a good question, and it's certainly something we're mulling over at the moment. However, I'm tending toward the "feature" side. Yes, it can influence how the game is played (although the premium is always on winning, so I wouldn't say the win con part is really sabotaged), but I think that's probably a good thing. Teams will have to make decisions on how aggressively they want to go for the "bonus" points. I'm sure it's something that we'll discuss again before we finalize anything.

That said, we're still discussing whether it makes more sense to move to a more binary system (although some of those negative points and the lylo points will likely stay).

shaft wrote:2) If teams aren't publicly listed until after game completion of all four games you don't have to worry about shenanigans with people gimping their faction in a game to prevent points from going to a competing team.

This is also something I've been going back and forth on. There are pros and cons to revealing team identities and not. Revealing makes it feel like a more intertwined game but comes at the cost of more potential of shenanigans. The thing I do worry about is that not revealing teams doesn't solve the problem completely.

zoraster · Post Post #39 (isolation #8) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:20 am

PranaDevil wrote:Well, that's a full four man group on our end. We're all set to go, hurry up and shift to the top of the queue

Also, considering the game, should it really be in the mini queue? I'd say it's more a large theme due to the amount of players. Sure each individual game is a mini, but as each player will be overseeing the other games their team is playing, and it requires more than the amount a normal mini would (52 is definitely more than 13), it really is more like a large theme.

It's there because that was the solution that mith and the other list mods came up with. It works for me.

For what it's worth, signups will either be in a separate thread or in MD.

zoraster · Post Post #49 (isolation #9) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:38 pm

Just as an update, we have all our mods in place now. TheButtonman has kindly offered to run the open game

zoraster · Post Post #52 (isolation #10) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:50 pm

MagnaofIllusion wrote:Zoraster - will you be keeping us informed as teams register with you? I'd be interested in seeing a running tally of how many full / 3/4ths full teams arrive quickly.

Yeah this is a good idea. I won't be revealing who's in those teams yet as we're not sure we're going to disclose teams at all (in fact we're leaning against it), but keeping a list of teams that have pre-inned with full teams is a good idea. At the moment, I've only gotten one team that's pre-inned. I added a count on the front page.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and say that I won't start the Team Mafia games until May 15th

at the earliest

. That should give players a little more certainty when forming their teams. I may start sign-ups and even the draft section of PYP before that point, but the games themselves won't start before May 15th.

zoraster · Post Post #55 (isolation #11) » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:08 pm

MagnaofIllusion wrote:
zoraster wrote: Yeah this is a good idea. I won't be revealing who's in those teams yet as we're not sure we're going to disclose teams at all (in fact we're leaning against it), but keeping a list of teams that have pre-inned with full teams is a good idea. At the moment, I've only gotten one team that's pre-inned. I added a count on the front page.
I agree 100% with no team disclosure. Rather than risk some sort of schenanigans it's better to play it safe.

I'm very interested in seeing this play out and find who the Top teams eventually are. Great idea Zor!!

Thanks! I'm excited to see it play out. We're up to 3 teams now.

zoraster · Post Post #64 (isolation #12) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:11 am

Yeah I just meant there won't be a role pm for PYP. I can provide alignment info to the team to make their selection, but not role information. Anyway, we're reevaluating points. I'll be honest and say the points as they are now never thrilled me. I welcome suggestions for the points. I'm going to keep the +/- points for winning/losing lylo, the negative points for replacement, on-going game discussion, and modkill/force replacement, but the "meat" of the point system is certainly up in the air. I could go with a binary system (something like +8 for winning), but I'd love to get at least some reward for a bigger victory. The points don't have to be the exact same for each subgame, but they do need to be very close, and the expected value should be the same.

Hoopla wrote:
zoraster wrote:
Selecting The Player To Go In Each Game

Before the games start, your team will be given three role PMs, one for each of the games except PYP. Your team must decide which player will go into which game, and PM Zoraster with this information.

Players in PYP will start without a role as normal (the draft is part of the game).
That isn't normal. Players are given an alignment to begin with prior to the draft. The draft is there to determine which abilities (if any) get added to your role. Scum get to coordinate pregame to sync/organize their draft picks, and then their role choices.

~~

Also, I don't think your scoring system is staggered very well. A town perfect win is incredibly rare in comparison to a perfect scum win. I'd rethink that if I were you. I'm not sure if you want to have such large gaps in the levels of points too, as this tampers with game dynamics somewhat, making bussing increasingly less attractive. I suppose that might be some of the appeal though?

zoraster · Post Post #65 (isolation #13) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:56 am

iamausername wrote:
zoraster wrote:I won't be revealing who's in those teams yet as we're not sure we're going to disclose teams at all (in fact we're leaning against it)
Just saw this. I don't know if it will affect this decision anyway, but I'll point out that some people will know something about the makeup of other teams either way, due to being courted by multiple teams. I know this for a fact. But maybe that's part of the game.

Yeah. We don't plan on forbidding any team from revealing their identities or anything. It's just that we, the mods, won't do it.

zoraster · Post Post #67 (isolation #14) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:24 am

Vi wrote:*totally not reading the thread*
zoraster, when do you think this will begin?

May 15th or later for the actual game starts. Possibly a bit earlier for the pre-game stuff (sign-ups, role selection, etc)

zoraster · Post Post #69 (isolation #15) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:40 am

I'm not crazy about points for mislynches or having a teammate lynched. First, it doesn't really solve the problem that's been brought up with my system (namely that it provides incentive to play differently). Second, it's not really even. A town win might have three mislynches, and almost always has at least one mislynch. A scum win, at most, will have two team members lynched, and -- as has been pointed out -- a perfect scum win is a lot more common than a perfect town win.

I'm not sure what you mean by the colored points.

zoraster · Post Post #71 (isolation #16) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:54 am

what did you mean by your colored suggestion?

My biggest problem is kind of that I'm trying to guess at things I don't really know.

Can anyone who's better with calculations tell me what the chances are that two or more teams will have the highest points and have same point total in the following scenario:
1. Win rate is 50/50 for all four games
2. There are 10 town and 3 scum in each game
3. Teams are assigned roles randomly (duh).
4. Points for winning as scum and town are the same and there are no points gained or lost otherwise.

DDD?

EDITED

zoraster · Post Post #74 (isolation #17) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:59 am

hitogoroshi wrote:zoraster, am I right in guessing that your ideal scoring system is one where the optimal play is exactly the same as it would be if the mini was unconnected to team mafia? I've been doing a bit of finagling on what a good system would look like but I should make sure I'm balancing on the right constraint first. :p

Yes, although I don't mind a very slight incentive for scum not to bus. (Don't mind=it's fine if there is one although it shouldn't be large, but not that it's necessary at all)

zoraster · Post Post #77 (isolation #18) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:11 am

Ah good point. I actually didn't ask the question I meant to which was what is the likelihood that the teams with the HIGHEST point total have the same points?

Still, that's a little troubling as those teams with all town will necessarily tie if they win. hmm. This seems less than ideal.

I have considered having an MVP awarded at the end by the mod of that game (maybe even an MVP for the losing team too), but I do hate to interject subjectivity.

zoraster · Post Post #79 (isolation #19) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:16 am

Ah and you actually reninja'd me. So I guess the question is whether offering a small bonus to an MVP awarded by the mod of each game is too much mod involvement. And it might not even solve the problem (if two teams have all town roles and win each time, that doesn't assure either will have won MVP in any of their games)

zoraster · Post Post #85 (isolation #20) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 4:35 am

clearly what I need to do is add another 10 games.

And good points on MVP. Not fair.

But anyway, I think this highlights why doing something like I had before is almost necessary if nothing else than to provide stratification. It doesn't solve the problem of two teams that are on the same faction in every game, though. I'm not sure there is a solution to that without involving some unfairness. Having joint winners isn't unreasonable. It'd just suck to have DDD's Sim4 result with 8 joint winners, but that probably is helped by a stratification scheme.

zoraster · Post Post #88 (isolation #21) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:05 am

shaft.ed wrote:Personally I would just do it binary 0 for win, 1 for loss. As long as you set up the teams so that repeating patterns are avoided and do not announce the teams anywhere (and make sure people dont squeal) you minimize odds of overlap. Maybe have a posthoc informal vote amongst all 52 players as to which team should win if a tiebreaker is needed.

But any lynch scoring will be unfair to parties that die early in the game.

what do you mean repeating patterns?

And I'm not comfortable making people not announce their team. I don't think the mods should reveal teams, but I'd rather give players the option of announcing or not.

A vote after the fact among all the players may just tend toward a popularity contest.

zoraster · Post Post #90 (isolation #22) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:08 am

What about a tie breaker like this: after Day 1 is finished in all games, each team must choose one player they think is scum from a game where their team is town. If the scores are tied at the end, the team that made the correct choice wins. If both (or everyone) picked correctly, joint winners.

zoraster · Post Post #94 (isolation #23) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:39 am

maybe. but it seems fairly unlikely. If they're really that obvious, why weren't they the D1 lynch? In my experience, one person's "obvious" scum is another person's town or at least neutral read.

zoraster · Post Post #96 (isolation #24) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:33 am

iamausername wrote:
zoraster wrote:after Day 1 is finished in all games
D1 won't necessarily finish at the same time in all games, though.

well if i put this rule into effect it would. Or at least N1 wouldn't happen until all Day 1s have finished. It's a downside.

Anyway, I think I need to step away from the scoring problem for a bit. I'll figure out something. I'm sure someone will be unhappy with the way I go about doing it, but that's life.

zoraster · Post Post #98 (isolation #25) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:37 am

Zorblag wrote:So Troll anticipates Troll will likely participate in this thing.

To Troll the appeal really be playing in a game with 3 others to help Troll figure out what be going on (in exchange for Troll's help in their games.) The points do little to add to that aspect of the game. Were it up to Troll, Troll would simply give one point for each win, zero for each loss and live with the fact that it be somewhat likely that teams will be tied at the end of the process. After all, in games of mafia we seldom have a single winner and that no gives anyone trouble that Troll has noticed. Anyone who has tried to set up a tournament has already seen the troubles inherent in trying to standardize strength of win over multiple games; Troll no thinks it be worth the effort.

Anything which be added in terms of complexity for the points be likely to lead to somewhat suboptimal play in the games themselves as the teams attempt to game the point system. Troll would rather have play in the individual games be as competitive as possible simply having each team playing to win each game (as this binary system does) seems the way to achieve that.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

As always, troll is surprisingly* articulate and well thought out. I think what he says is true: namely, that what makes the thing appealing is the team aspect, not necessarily the team beating everyone else aspect. Still, I'd love to come up with a scenario that managed to find a way to figure out one winner in a fair way that doesn't compromise the integrity of the individual games.

Maybe shaft.ed's suggestion is the right way to go: a point for winning with some sort of tie breaker. It certainly makes my life easier.

*Surprising only because of his cave-man syntax

zoraster · Post Post #100 (isolation #26) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:46 am

that kind of punishes players who survive in the game not to mention would involve a lot of work to figure out.

zoraster · Post Post #102 (isolation #27) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:05 am

shaft.ed wrote:I think the guess the scum on N1 tie breaker should work.

Also when would this thing be running. I'm tempted to start up Team Get Off My Lawn!

The games will be starting May 15th at the earliest. Pre-game stuff might occur a little earlier, but not much.

zoraster · Post Post #105 (isolation #28) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:47 am

Klazam wrote:Same here. I think the concept of having teams would be awesome.

If a player is killed is that player still allowed to participate in the team qt?

As of now, yes.

zoraster · Post Post #114 (isolation #29) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:24 am

VP Baltar wrote:Agree with hito's suggestion.

You could also do most RL days survived by all combined team members or something...though that could also result in a second tie.

I like hito's suggestion as well, but my concern is that people will be biased toward "big name" players, and it does tend to punish players who sacrificed themselves early in the game. Few people will vote someone who got NKed on N1 even if that was the best play that could have happened.

zoraster · Post Post #121 (isolation #30) » Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:25 pm

Herodotus wrote:Re: VP's idea - Total days survived punishes people for being NK'ed.

How about the number of players from the team who were lynched during day 1, then as a second tiebreaker, the number of players from the team who were lynched during day 2? There's some metagaming possible there, but getting lynched indicates bad play, and on day 1+2, no one knows which teams will be winning at the end. Only problem is that IMO this rewards teams with a lot of scum roles again, as they are less likely to be lynched early.

Speaking of teams, there will be plenty of grounds for speculation, and the captains might accidentally be revealed. Making them public would equalize the information.

Also: a player who is dead in their own game replacing a team member who can't continue: allowed or not allowed?

I'll have to think about the rest, but as to your question: not allowed I'd say.

zoraster · Post Post #134 (isolation #31) » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:58 am

okay. I'm up to 8 full teams registered. I'm going to cap it at 10 teams until I officially begin sign-ups much closer to the date.

By the way, please let me know if you've submitted a team and either your roster has changed or you're withdrawing. I'll let each team that's pre-inned replace one member after I cap it at 10 teams. Any further replacements will mean that the team will need to sign-up with everyone else.

zoraster · Post Post #138 (isolation #32) » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:32 am

all right. that's 10 teams signed up. I'm going to cap it for now. If you'd like to be put on a mailing list to be notified when sign-ups open, please give me a PM so that you're the first to know.

As stated before, however, teams of 4 will get priority over teams of 3 and then solo players.

zoraster · Post Post #140 (isolation #33) » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:46 am

well that's actually a complicated question to answer. The queue is actually the mini-theme queue. But sign-ups will be either in Mafia Discussion or as a separate thread in the queue forum (most likely the latter).

Although sign-ups will likely be done by PM to keep team identities secret.

zoraster · Post Post #155 (isolation #34) » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:32 pm

UncertainKitten wrote:What part of VA might THAT be, Feito ?

The too-clever-by-half northern part?

zoraster · Post Post #173 (isolation #35) » Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:22 am

Regfan wrote:There's no rule stating that a player has to have _ games under their belt to apply right?

Nope.

The teams, however, can use whatever entry barriers they wish.

zoraster · Post Post #195 (isolation #36) » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:29 am

RedCoyote wrote:Wait a minute. I just realized something.

Don't these games have to go through the queue? Unless, I mean, are there multiple Mods participating in this? I don't know if this question has already been answered or not, it just occurred to me.

Yeah, essentially that's why the mini-theme queue lists it as "zoraster (and team)"

gandalf5166 wrote:One thing: If we get a scum role PM, will we be told what teams our scumbuddies will come from?

No, you won't. You won't be told who your scum buddies are until all teams have made their selections.

zoraster · Post Post #197 (isolation #37) » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:43 am

Mr. Flay wrote:
gandalf5166 wrote:
RedCoyote wrote:Wait a minute. I just realized something.

Don't these games have to go through the queue? Unless, I mean, are there multiple Mods participating in this? I don't know if this question has already been answered or not, it just occurred to me.
Zoraster discussed it with mith. It's running through the mini queue as one game.
More specifically, zoroaster enlisted four mods from the appropriate queues, which'll ensure they all start at/about the same time.

Actually, mith and cow ended up choosing a different route, which was to move me down in the mini-theme queue and have all my mods "join" me at that point. Just assures everyone gets to the end of the queue at the same time.

zoraster · Post Post #217 (isolation #38) » Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:08 am

well, that's why we're offering different types of games!

zoraster · Post Post #223 (isolation #39) » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:34 pm

Faraday wrote:Don't suppose it's possible to allow teams to communicate via AIM if they're prepared to copy and paste chat logs is there? I mean I undersand the rule, to some degree, but it's a lot easier/better to communicate in real time than via quicktopic, and I guess quicktopics allow you to monitor stuff better, but yeah I feel it'd aid teamwork to be allowed to talk on msn/aim whatever and copy and paste conversations if needed. It's just easier to bounce stuff off people in real time.

No. While there is some appeal to that, we're not trying to create four-player hydras here. I hope a lot of teams take advantage of the communication offered and use it to their advantage, but it's easier as mods, easier for replacements, and easier for the teams as a whole to keep communications to the official QTs.

zoraster · Post Post #227 (isolation #40) » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:12 am

I'm not interested in getting into an argument over it, but suffice it to say copy and pasting whole AIM conversations (which is what we're talking about here given that I'd like to have ALL game communication available to review by mods and third parties) is significantly harder to review than messages posted sequentially in a message board like environment.

The back and forth of an AIM (MSN, GChat, whatever) conversation is a different beast. End of story.

zoraster · Post Post #234 (isolation #41) » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:15 am

yeah, that kind of stuff is fine so long as it's not a new method of trying to have a conversation. But a googledoc tracking votes or whatever is fine so long as the mod has access to it too.

zoraster · Post Post #237 (isolation #42) » Wed Mar 30, 2011 10:06 am

Hito is right, but by signing up as a solo player, you'll be added to a potential replacement list. So if a team is in need of a replacement, they can check the players on that list and contact you to see if you're available.

Mods will replace people, but only after 7 days of inactivity, and their team will be penalized.

zoraster · Post Post #243 (isolation #43) » Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:35 pm

SpyreX wrote:There's quite the buzz. How full up is this gettin zor?

Currently 58 people signed up either by pre-in (40) or to receive a notification by PM (18), and that only includes people who have PMed me to ask to be put on the PM notification list.

Right now we've pretty much finalized all of the details on the games except the theme game.

zoraster · Post Post #249 (isolation #44) » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:23 am

Just so everyone knows, I am vla until Monday so it may take me a bit to get back to you.

zoraster · Post Post #261 (isolation #45) » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:27 pm

Note: Teams aren't being revealed. Well, not until the end anyway.

zoraster · Post Post #270 (isolation #46) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:31 am

populartajo wrote:teams should be revealed since its now unfair to have some known and unknown ones.

It's only unfair to teams that have revealed themselves and then only theoretically. If a team feels like it's at a disadvantage because people don't know who's on their team, then they can simply reveal their identity. It was never our intention to force people to be quiet about who's on their team -- just not to reveal it ourselves.

zoraster · Post Post #277 (isolation #47) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:21 am

Rhinox wrote:
popsofctown wrote:They chose to do so, though, is what zoraster is saying.
I want my team to be a surprise! Rhinox no tellings

OP seems to imply that teams will be spoiled after signups for team mafia begin but before players are designated to games.
Don't worry I forgot already and I'm too lazy to go back and find the PM

So then, those in this tournament of sorts will not only be playing their own game, but possibly some sort of greater metagame of "we should lynch/kill so-and-so because his/her 3 partners already won so killing him will limit his team's points"?

Also, was wondering, if there is enough interest, any chance of getting a 5th mod for this and running 5 games for teams of 5 instead of teams of 4? Just so people aren't left out.

First, yes. We're going to try and limit the amount of stuff you mentioned through the following ways:
1. Not announcing teams
2. Points will be slightly tweaked to counter lylo strategic voting, but I wouldn't overestimate the effect this will have.
3. Other than speaking in Team QTs, no outside game discussion will take place. In other words, if you're in Game B, you can't say in the Game B thread "Well, in Game A they're doing X..."

It won't prevent it altogether, but I think the incentives for winning will be high enough that it'll discourage most of it. The biggest threat I see is if all three other games end, the team compositions have become common knowledge, and two teams with players alive in the final game are tied for first with no other teams able to pass them if they both lose. I think that's a relatively unlikely scenario, however.

Second, I did briefly consider expanding to 5 games when I realized how popular this ended up being, but I think it's best left to a future version of this. For one thing, a lot of teams have already arranged themselves and I don't want to cause a huge reshuffling shortly before the games go up to get a fifth, but I also think it'll be an ideal size to create team play. From my perspective, it's better to be a little cautious when doing this new thing to make sure that I can handle it with minimal problems and then expand it later.

That said, if it's a success I'd be willing to run it again in a year (the thought was it could be the starting book-end to summer with the /in-vitational as the other bookend), and I'd give more serious thought to expanding the thing to 5 or 6 games.

zoraster · Post Post #282 (isolation #48) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:40 am

Ythill wrote:The team I am on is going to win. By a lot. Just sayin.

In signing up for this, I informed Zor that I will be needing a temporary replacement for about 3-4 weeks starting in mid-June. I'll probably wait until sign-ups are complete before actually recruiting. At that time, I will be looking for a player who I can trust to play well and keep up with four games, who is available during that time and not already on a team.

@Zor:
Since dead players can still post to the team QT, I am assuming that I will be allowed to employ a temp replacement even if I'm dead in my game. If this is not the case, please let me know at some point.

Yeah i think that's fair. So long as only one player is "active" at a time (don't want teams of eight forming to get an advantage

)

zoraster · Post Post #300 (isolation #49) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:35 pm

I sympathize with both ythill and Zorb. The ideal solution would be something that led to playing each game as if you were trying to play the individual game optimally, but I still want it to be more than just 4 disparate games going on with a vague sense of a "winner."

First, we will be doing "punishment" points for a variety of things including mod replacements, modkills, etc. If a tie is prevented because one team is punished,that's fine, but I don't view this as really a "tie prevention" method so much as a way to incentivize certain play.

Second, of Ythill's suggestions I think Optimal Role points, voting awards, and team hunting mess with the actual games too much. Team elimination is less so, but there's not really any incentive for teams to vote for the least scummy team or whatever. It's kind of just divorced from the game itself altogether. Further, I really don't want to create a bunch of makework by having teams submit something every single round.

Third, I'm actually really intrigued by the Survivor idea. At the beginning of the game, each team picks one player it wants to survive. They can know his role or whatever in advance. This DOES affect game play a bit, but not in a way that should fundamentally alter the fabric of each individual game. Doing it successfully is kind of a sign of skill. And it would only be used to break a tie, so potentially sacrificing a game in order to try and survive is not worth it.

Fourth, a judging panel is sort of the "default" method of a tie break right now in my mind. It's not very satisfying to me, but it would work.

With that in mind, I'd love to hear comments regarding Ythill's suggestion of a Survivor mechanic. That is, each team will get their role selections then submit their players for each game along with picking one player they're marking as the "survivor." That player will still win or lose with the town/scum whether they're alive at the end or not, but in the event of a tie, the team that had their survivor survive will win.

That intrigues me, but I want to mull it over before actually giving it my seal of approval.

zoraster · Post Post #302 (isolation #50) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:45 pm

gandalf5166 wrote:I think that that could provide an unfair advantage to teams who recieved certain roles.

Well then those teams shouldn't pick those roles to be the survivor. And at least one of those roles will be either goon or VT.

zoraster · Post Post #305 (isolation #51) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:59 pm

gandalf5166 wrote:
zoraster wrote:
gandalf5166 wrote:I think that that could provide an unfair advantage to teams who recieved certain roles.
Well then those teams shouldn't pick those roles to be the survivor. And at least one of those roles will be either goon or VT.
My point was rather teams that received roles such as bulletproof or mafia.

admittedly bulletproof would be problematic, but why would mafia?

zoraster · Post Post #306 (isolation #52) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:00 pm

Eddard Stark wrote:Doesn't that discourage a VT drawing a nightkill (not something I want to do, really). Survivor mechanic seems icky to me.

It would.

zoraster · Post Post #309 (isolation #53) » Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:45 pm

fair enough. then right now my inclination is just to figure out a tie breaker via judging on a few categories that hopefully avoid awarding popularity and simply surviving.

zoraster · Post Post #316 (isolation #54) » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:28 am

Well, I wouldn't mind having a shared title if all the tied teams were on the exact same teams, that kind of almost seems fair. But it seems like we might be able to differentiate between team performance when those wins came from different games. I don't know what that means for how I plan to break ties or anything, but that's what my "fairness" detector says.

zoraster · Post Post #331 (isolation #55) » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:30 am

Preliminary Rule List, including scoring method and tie breaking method.

Spoiler: Rules

There is one major change we may be making to the rules (not affecting scoring), but I'm still discussing it with the mods involved.

Preliminary Time Line of EventsApril 15th: Setups finalized.
April 30th: Rules finalized, role pms turned in, mods briefed and on the same page.
May 1st: Sign-ups go up
May 2nd-5th: Teams officially assigned, QTs assigned.
Soon after QTs assigned: Team Role PMs go out for teams to make their selections.
May 9th: Team selections due.
May 12th: Pre-game begins (PYP draft, Individual role PMs go out with QT info, etc)
May 15th: All games open for play.
June 1st: Day 1 deadline

Please note that all events are subject to change.

zoraster · Post Post #334 (isolation #56) » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:31 pm

that's a good point. My intention was to avoid teams "hogging" replacements, but I think your point is better. It's been changed.

And yes, mods won't assist with replacing dead players. Mods only replace after seven consecutive active days of inactivity (or in other extreme cases) at a penalty to the team.

zoraster · Post Post #336 (isolation #57) » Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:31 am

Update

Things are about to start heating up around here.

The Games

Vi has graciously agreed to help me out by being the sounding board for dramonic's game, and at least from what I've seen, dramonic's game is one I'd want to play. The Fonz's Normal game has been finalized for some time now, and I think it looks well balanced. Hoopla and SpyreX's PYP mini version looks to be set. I think that one will be interesting as it's been a tad challenging to scale it, but I think it'll be fun and hopefully allow all sides an even chance to win.

Sign-Ups

Sign-ups are on schedule to go up Sunday, May 1st. As a preliminary time, I'm going to say at around 16:00 EDT (4pm), so you can mark your calendar's if you didn't manage to pre-in.

Confirmations of Pre-ins

I'm about to start to process of confirming pre-ins. Essentially, this will be a PM to every player who's signed up to ask them whether they confirm their spot and will be able to play starting May 15th. As a reminder: I'm allowing teams that pre-inned to replace ONE player in their roster before the games start. If two or more need to be replaced, they'll have to be removed from the pre-in list and sign-up during the regular sign-ups.

Overall, I'm getting very excited to see this run. Lots of great players involved. The games look good. I hope you all are as excited as I am.

EDIT: All pre-in confirmation PMs are out. If you think you were scheduled as a pre-in and did not receive one, please let me know. As I'm dealing with 40 people here, I won't be confirming your confirm, but if I don't have you confirming, I will check to make sure before booting you.

zoraster · Post Post #343 (isolation #58) » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:19 am

Information has been sent to those on the PM notification list (i.e. players interested in playing but not pre-inned). If you didn't get this PM please PM me if you wish to be put on the notification list.

zoraster · Post Post #346 (isolation #59) » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:45 am

The Fonz wrote:Zor, I notice on the mini theme queue we're down as 'available may 15th' but here you said we'd start earlier if we get to the top of the queue in time. Which is correct?

The plan is that the games will start no earlier than May 15th. Sign ups will go up May 1st.

Preliminary Time Line of EventsApril 15th: Setups finalized.
April 30th: Rules finalized, role pms turned in, mods briefed and on the same page.
May 1st: Sign-ups go up
May 2nd-5th: Teams officially assigned, QTs assigned.
Soon after QTs assigned: Team Role PMs go out for teams to make their selections.
May 9th: Team selections due.
May 12th: Pre-game begins (PYP draft, Individual role PMs go out with QT info, etc)
May 15th: All games open for play.
June 1st: Day 1 deadline

zoraster · Post Post #364 (isolation #60) » Sat Apr 23, 2011 4:17 am

This is the PM that people on the PM notification list as of Wednesday received.

If you are receiving this PM it is because you were put on the notification list for Team Mafia sign ups. You will receive a PM when the sign ups go up, but I wanted to let you all know the precise information for the sign ups as there are currently 25 people on the notification list, and only 12 spots available.

The Way It Works

At 16:00 EDT (4pm) on Sunday May 1st, the sign ups for Team Mafia will go up.

Teams of 2, 3 or 4 players will then PM me with their player list
and the code number provided in the thread.
* Only one player from each team needs to PM me with this information, but multiple people can if they want to.

*A PM without the code number from the thread will NOT be accepted

Solo player should sign up directly in the thread.

Full Teams Get Priority

Complete teams of 4 get priority. In other words, if there are enough teams of 4 to fill all of player spots, then any solo players or teams of 2 or 3 will not get a chance to play initially. For this reason, it is HIGHLY suggested you find a full team before sign ups go up. You can use the Team Mafia Announcement thread to advertise your need.

Teams of 3 and then 2 have priority over solo players, although solo players will be used to fill out teams of 3 before teams of 2 are used.

And that's it. If you have any questions or wish to be removed from this list, please let me know by responding. Otherwise, there's no need to respond.

Love,
Zoraster

It looks like we'll have another team's worth of spots available than I indicated in that PM. If you aren't on the PM notification list, please PM me to get yourself added.

zoraster · Post Post #365 (isolation #61) » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:58 am

Just a quick update. After confirmations to the pre-inned players were sent and came back, there are now actually only 9 pre-inned teams, so there will be 16 player spots available in sign-ups. There are 35 people on the notification list.

zoraster · Post Post #377 (isolation #62) » Sat Apr 30, 2011 2:53 pm

This is the sign-up thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p3005101

Note: it is not open yet, so don't start PMing me now

zoraster · Post Post #384 (isolation #63) » Sun May 01, 2011 4:46 am

Minor update:

The game names will be as follows:

Team Mafia: Pick Your Power (Zoraster modding, designed by Hoopla and SpyreX)
Team Mafia: Aggressive Mind Games Mafia (designed and modded by The Fonz, Normal Game)
Team Mafia: White Flag Mafia (modded by TheButtonmen, open mountainous)
Team Mafia: Psychic Mafia (modded by dramonic, designed by dramonic and Vi, Theme Game)

zoraster · Post Post #387 (isolation #64) » Sun May 01, 2011 12:25 pm

had an error on my phone, so RGAM will be 4:27 PDT

zoraster · Post Post #388 (isolation #65) » Sun May 01, 2011 12:36 pm

For those interested: RGAM info. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... nce_Method

zoraster · Post Post #389 (isolation #66) » Sun May 01, 2011 12:55 pm

I've had a few people ask me whether they can use google docs type of things to do things such as track vote counts and so forth between team members. That's fine so long as you're not using it to converse, and I'd appreciate it if you'll give me access to whatever document it is.

zoraster · Post Post #390 (isolation #67) » Sun May 01, 2011 12:59 pm

First post is updated with the current playing list. Still waiting on two people to confirm, but I'm confident of their coming confirm, so I've posted the list.

zoraster · Post Post #398 (isolation #68) » Mon May 02, 2011 3:26 am

Mina wrote:zoraster, are people allowed to discuss who's on which team, ask why a player selected that game/role PM, etc.? In team and scum QTs as well as the main thread? Or is that banned by the ongoing game rules? I predict a lot of metagaming and WIFOM along the lines of "X hates being scum, so he must be town!"

Yes you are allowed to discuss who is on which team in either the QT or the main game threads. However, I ask that you not do so in this thread (your team QTs are going out ASAP and you can discuss whatever you want there). Please remember that you may not discuss the other ongoing games outside of the team QT.

OKAY:

"I think Mina is on a team with Zoraster because they play together a lot and there's a team called Team Zormina. Given that Mina hates playing scum but Zoraster likes it, if their team drew a scum role, Zoraster (who is playing in this game) probably got it. Therefore, we should lynch Zoraster.

NOT OKAY:

Mina, Zoraster and dramonic are on the same team because Mina said so in her game thread here. Dramonic and Zor both like playing scum while Mina likes town, and Dramonic was already lynched as a townie in his game. Therefore, if their team drew a scum role, it is likely Zoraster was assigned it.

In the first, you're speaking about the teams themselves but not references the other games except for the player who is actually in your game. In the second, you're referring to the happenings in other games.

Katsuki wrote:Are we expected to play under our player names? Or do we play under a single team account?

Each player will play under his or her own player name.

zoraster · Post Post #400 (isolation #69) » Mon May 02, 2011 4:23 am

I'm not saying that people can't act on the basis of other games, and I encourage them to actively discuss stuff within their team QTs. If Mina melts down in Game 1 and implicates her teammate in Game 2 as scum, then every person in Game 1 is likely to post in their team's QT that it happened so their Game 2 player can take appropriate action.

The purpose of the rule is to make sure each game feels distinct from each other game. Mostly, we just don't want people trying to analyze other games from their own or try and sway another player in another game to take a certain action.

zoraster · Post Post #403 (isolation #70) » Mon May 02, 2011 5:50 am

Rhinox wrote:Fair enough I'd just hate to see a situation where someone can't explain why they're voting me without referencing and ongoing game or I can't defend myself without referencing an ongoing game and then we're all just kinda stuck and maybe I get lynched but the town can't talk about whether the players who lynched me are scummy because they can't talk about and dissect their reasons for voting.

I'll give this some thought.

zoraster · Post Post #404 (isolation #71) » Mon May 02, 2011 6:38 am

QT and Roles are out via PM.

zoraster · Post Post #405 (isolation #72) » Mon May 02, 2011 6:55 am

Clarification to the thing about documents. A team can have additional documents like a google doc thing for tracking votes, but please don't open new QTs or have side conversations elsewhere. I'm trying to keep an eye on 13 QTs as it is. I appreciate that might get a bit messy when trying to follow all the games, but keeping it together will help me out a great deal.

On an unrelated note, I'm drafting a brief description for each game and how it works. More detailed information will be available in each game thread which will be posted relatively soon.

zoraster · Post Post #406 (isolation #73) » Mon May 02, 2011 7:39 am

Pick Your PowerDESIGNED BY: SpyreX and Hoopla
MODERATED BY: Zoraster

Pick your power is a popular game that was designed originally by SpyreX as a large theme game. The game is open, and this game was designed by Hoopla and SpyreX.

The draft: Before the game proper starts, each player will PM me with two numbers, 1-15 (X,Y).

1. The lowest unique X number will get first pick. The next lowest unique X number will get second, etc.
2. After all unique X numbers are exhausted, all two-way X ties will have their Y numbers compared. The lowest unique Y number will get the next pick, the lowest Y number after that will get the next pick, etc.
3. After all two-way X ties with unique Y numbers are exhausted, the same is done with three way ties, then four way ties, etc.
4. Players with the same X and Y value will be ranked by the lowest X value then one will be picked to pick above the other randomly.

For example:
Player 1: 4,9
Player 2: 1,4
Player 3: 3,5
Player 4: 1,7
Player 5: 1,4
Player 6: 15,15
Player 7: 15,14

Would have the result of:
1st Pick: Player 3 (3,5)
2nd Pick: Player 4 (4,9)
3rd Pick: Player 7 (15,14)
4th Pick: Player 6 (15,15)
5th Pick: Player 4 (1,7)
6th Pick: Player 2 (1,4) <--- Random Winner
7th Pick: Player 5 (1,4) <--- Random loser

After everyone PMs me, the draft results will be published. At this point, every player must PM me with a role from the roles available they'd like to have. If someone above you picked the role, you will be vanilla.

The Roles:
Role Cop
Tracker
Jailkeeper
Goon Cop (sees if someone is a vanilla goon or not -- mafia with a PR will come up as "not goon")
3-Shot Roleblocker (not limited to just one shot a night)
Night 2 Vig
Night 3 Vig
Gunsmith (sees guns on all mafia plus Goon Cop, Role Cop, N2 Vig, N3 Vig)

Any role received by the mafia will be IN ADDITION TO their ability to kill. Thus, any mafia member may both kill AND use their role in any night.

White Flag MafiaMODERATED BY: TheButtonmen

This version of White Flag Mafia is mountainous (i.e. there are no power roles). In White Flag Mafia, the town wins when two out of the three mafia members have been eliminated.

Aggressive Mind Games MafiaDESIGNED AND MODERATED BY: The Fonz

This is simply a normal closed game that follows the normal rules.

Psychic MafiaDESIGNED BY: dramonic and Vi
MODERATED BY: dramonic

This is the "theme game." And, like many dramonic and Vi games, it's not simple. I'll let them tell you how much they want to in their game thread, but for now I'm merely authorized to inform you that the town are called Benefice and the Malefice are scum. Like the other games, there are no third parties in this game. Finally, "Communion" is similar to DAY.

EDIT: Big boo boo. Fixed communion from being similar to night to being similar to day.

zoraster · Post Post #407 (isolation #74) » Mon May 02, 2011 8:12 am

Made a mistake, sorry. I said communion was similar to night, but that's not true. It's similar to day.

zoraster · Post Post #420 (isolation #75) » Wed May 04, 2011 3:52 am

Yes. No pre-game collusion between teams, please. In fact, if you're playing in the game, you shouldn't be posting about your team selections at all right now except within your QT.

I've been fielding a lot of questions recently, and I apologize if I've missed any. If you do have some, feel free to PM me or post them here.

zoraster · Post Post #422 (isolation #76) » Fri May 06, 2011 4:42 am

If you haven't yet, go ahead and bookmark the game threads. They should have rules, etc. up fairly soon.

PYP: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17417
White Flag: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17425
Aggressive Mind Games: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17430
Psychic Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&t=17423

zoraster · Post Post #423 (isolation #77) » Fri May 06, 2011 8:40 am

The replacement list is up. Teams may consult it to find someone they know will be likely to want to replace in, but they don't have to. They don't have to pick by the order of the list either. In the event of a mod-forced replacement (e.g. after 7 days inactivity), the mod will try the first person on the list.

Thus, beyond the first few people, I think the order you're in doesn't really matter for replacement. Merely being on the list is good because it'll let teams in need of a replacement know of your availability.

zoraster · Post Post #427 (isolation #78) » Sun May 08, 2011 5:46 am

all selections have been made. I'll be giving the mods their teams later today and they'll send out PMs when they're able. Those playing PYP should get their role PMs today.

zoraster · Post Post #429 (isolation #79) » Sun May 08, 2011 10:28 am

Game Rosters

Pick Your Power

Amrun
Debonair Danny DiPietro
Faraday
GreyICE
Hoopla
Kise
Lady LambdaDelta
Papa Zito
PranaDevil
quadz08
Slaxx
SpyreX
Super Smash Bros. Fan

White Flag Mafia

Chris B
DemonHybrid
DrippingGoofball
Equinox
InflatablePie
Klazam
LLamaFluff
Llamarable
mith
Sevei
SocioPath
Sotty7
Thor 665

Aggressive Mind Games Mafia

bristep
camn
ConSpiracy
Cyberbob
esuriospiritus
Fate
Fugitive
hitogoroshi
Nachomamma8
Nicodemus
Twistedspoon
VP Baltar
Yosarian2

Psychic Mafia

animorpherv1
Hoppster
Iecerint
Katsuki
Mina
Parama
populartajo
singersigner
swiftstrike
UncertainKitten
XReckonerX
Ythill
Zachrulez

zoraster · Post Post #453 (isolation #80) » Mon May 09, 2011 1:19 pm

animorpherv1 wrote:So, uh.

I remember the POWERFUL WIZARD mechanic being brought up for Psychic. I never played in POWERFUL WIZARD. Someone help?

whether or not this is meant seriously, you should know better than this. I really don't want to start the game off by penalizing teams.

zoraster · Post Post #455 (isolation #81) » Sat May 14, 2011 6:02 am

Just as a reminder, all the games open tomorrow (May 15th). The mods themselves will choose when the game opens, at any time between 00:00 and 23:59. My own game will likely start on the early end of that window.

Good luck to all participating teams!

zoraster · Post Post #457 (isolation #82) » Thu May 19, 2011 4:35 am

Rule Clarification: You may talk about completed games as you normally would (e.g. you may now talk about dram's completed game in the other game threads) in the game threads (please keep discussion of the game out of this thread until the end

)

zoraster · Post Post #459 (isolation #83) » Thu May 19, 2011 6:25 am

Fate wrote:Do the winners of this whole thing get a fancy Scummy like award?

Just curious >_>b

I'll make you a trophy out of tinfoil and send it to your mailing address.

More seriously, I'm not sure if there'll be a scummy award just for this game (seems likely not), but I imagine there will be nominations for scummy awards.

zoraster · Post Post #463 (isolation #84) » Thu May 19, 2011 7:58 am

save nominations, etc. for after team mafia ends as a whole.

zoraster · Post Post #469 (isolation #85) » Wed May 25, 2011 6:55 am

RegFan replaces Slaxx

zoraster · Post Post #512 (isolation #86) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:12 am

Hi everyone! thanks for playing. The result led to a multiple-way tie with no team winning all four games, so this requires the moderators make some tough decisions. We will try to do so quickly as we don't want to keep you all waiting.

You will get a PM with a link to a survey. Part of it is to ask you to evaluate the performance of others if you so wish, and the other half is to ask questions about how effective the game was run. As there were 52+ players in this game (more if you include replacements), this is the easiest way for me to make sure everyone is heard who wants to.

When I post the results (i.e. who won), I will also post my general thoughts. But for the gist: I think the game turned out well, but needs to be improved quite dramatically if it's run again. Fortunately, I think a few changes can help that.

zoraster · Post Post #515 (isolation #87) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:18 am

All surveys are out. A couple of people got two surveys by virtue of the fact they died and replaced in for a teammate. Those people should take the survey twice as the surveys are game specific.

I hope everyone had fun. We're hard at work determining the overall winner, but I was impressed by the teamwork of many of the participants. I hope everyone will want to play next year if we run it again.

Thanks!

zoraster · Post Post #518 (isolation #88) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:26 am

oops. forgot to send it to the scum of PYP. But LLD, you should have gotten one?

zoraster · Post Post #526 (isolation #89) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 3:03 am

Keep up the good comments, guys! A lot of comments that echo my own thoughts on how I'd do it if i had to do it again (e.g. less or no limits on discussing other team mafia games, a point system that doesn't allow for an 8 way tie even if it means less balance, etc) and some I hadn't thought of but seem legitimate. It comes as absolutely no surprise that there are a lot of things to change in a future iteration of this.

zoraster · Post Post #574 (isolation #90) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:31 am

You may post your QTs if you want, but no team is required to do so.

zoraster · Post Post #577 (isolation #91) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:01 am

By the way, we should be done judging the winner in the next day or so (hopefully) so I'll start a new thread with some special team mafia awards then announce the winner along with the end standings.

Thanks to everyone with suggestions. I purposefully went simplistic in this game. I think it's better to start simplistic with something that's already this complex rather than go big first and then realize it needs to be parred down. In the coming months, I'll evaluate how the players felt and how I felt and how I can make this into a better game.

If you're interested in helping me on a more in depth level next year, please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM.

zoraster · Post Post #579 (isolation #92) » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:08 am

SleepyKrew wrote:So it's going to be an annual event?

That is my hope. I think any more than that any the concept will sour very quickly. Any longer and there won't be as much institutional memory of past games that will, over time, make the annual team mafia thing more and more fun to play (hopefully).

One question no one has addressed that I'd love to hear from people about: What time of year do you think is appropriate for this?

I ran it this year starting in mid-May for a variety of reasons (that was when i could run it, start of summer so lots of people had more time, it bookends with a potential /in-vitational during summer, etc) but it certainly doesn't have to be then. One of the timing issues that occurred was Goofbash, and that extended WF a bit longer than it would have otherwise. There were actually very few replacements in this game, so at least that worked out.

zoraster · Post Post #661 (isolation #93) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:52 am

Winner announced in new thread here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =5&t=18458

zoraster · Post Post #666 (isolation #94) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:03 am

xRECKONERx wrote:Zor, another idea I just had in talking to Faraday: open it up for 5 games, 5-player teams.

You have your mini theme, mini normal, PYP, mountainous/white flag, then mini open

I considered this. I also considered doing 4x13 and 1x12 with 4 player teams. Each team would get to rank its preference of game and in sort of a snaking autodraft fashion, the teams would get placed into games. That has a few advantages:

1. it gets almost as many players (minus one) involved
2. it doesn't expand the teams to five which I am resistant to because I think there's probably a threshhold of games most people will watch (i suspect that reck and faraday are exceptions)
3. It provides some variation in team make-ups. You're not always competing against the same teams in every game.
4. I think it's kind of cool that a team could try to play to its strengths by selecting the games it really wants first.

The disadvantage is that it introduces a little less parity. In other words, the teams aren't playing exactly the same game. It also, depending on the point structure, provides more teams who may end up in a tie, but paired with a different point system this may or may not be a problem.

zoraster · Post Post #668 (isolation #95) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:05 am

Hoopla wrote:
xRECKONERx wrote:Zor, another idea I just had in talking to Faraday: open it up for 5 games, 5-player teams.

You have your mini theme, mini normal, PYP, mountainous/white flag, then mini open

I like the concept of more thoroughly linked games - such a mechanic could work to induce or greater emphasise teamwork.

A team spending allowance over the five individual games to buy powers/abilities from a communal market would be so fresh. The one drawback is you lose individual game types, as it's now one giant game - but isn't that better for team mafia?

I'll certainly consider this, Hoopla. But it does introduce a lot of complexity in design and balance. It also moves it away from being a game of regular mafia where we have teams into more of a single game with subgames. That's not all bad, but it is different.

zoraster · Post Post #672 (isolation #96) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:10 am

Yeah, at one point I had something like 35 people over the players playing, but that reduces a lot as time gets closer and people realize they don't really have time to do it. I wouldn't be comfortable in adding more than one other game's worth of players to it at this point.

zoraster · Post Post #673 (isolation #97) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:23 am

While we're floating some suggestions, one idea I did have but didn't really have time to do was to have a sort of a "reveal" for the games. For instance, each team would pick one player to put into one game first, then all the teams would get to see all the other team's first reveal. Then each team would submit their second player into a game, and the second choices would be revealed. Then all the teams would place their third and fourth pick and the games would begin.

That way, you could decide not just on the role you get and the game's theme, but also to some degree the players in the game.

zoraster · Post Post #677 (isolation #98) » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:31 am

That's worth considering. I think it worked okay here, but it is possible that the meta stuff would get a bit old a second time around.