In the Court of the Gods (Game Over)

[Jack]

Yes, that's a good book.

[zoraster]

Day 1 Vote Count

Andrius ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

populartajo ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

hitogoroshi ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

nopointinactingup ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

SpyreX ( 1 ) Feysal,

(L - 9 )

Equinox ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

farside22 ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

Feysal ( 8 ) DTMaster, Equinox, Lady Lambdadelta,

DrippingGoofball,

SpyreX,

Nobody Special,

Jack, hitogoroshi,

(L - 2 )

Mina ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

Corvuus ( 1 ) DeathRowKitty,

(L - 9 )

Benmage ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

DeathRowKitty ( 5 ) populartajo, farside22, Benmage, Andrius,

Fishythefish,

(L - 5 )

Jack ( 0 )

(L - 10 )

Lady Lambdadelta ( 1 ) nopointinactingup,

(L - 9 )

DTMaster ( 1 ) Corvuus,

(L - 9 )

No Lynch ( 0 )

(L - 9 )

Not Voting ( 1 ) Mina,
Total Votes ( 18 )

Deadline: February 19th at 17:59 EDT
With 18 able to vote, 10 needed to lynch.

[Mina]

zoraster: I unvoted Equinox.

Mod Note: Fixed, thanks

@Jack: This is an interesting conversation, and I'll resist the urge to go too far off-topic. I'll just say that I process information slowly, so my reads are always filtered through my conscious mind. I think I'm more prone to confirmation bias if I vote for the first person who rubs me the wrong way. (Oddly, however, I'm great at getting town reads by gut feel. Not sure what the difference is.)

Also, if you say, "Oh, Andrius is scum," and I say, "No, he's town," because I'm not picking up on the same patterns as you, then no communication is possible. So now we're at an impasse where I have to piece together your alignment from other bits of evidence and squint to see if I'm imagining my town read on him.

==============
SpyreX, fair enough on Feysal. After reading your ISO, though, you seem to dislike themanhimself and are kind of vague on DRK. So...um...I don't suppose you could discuss your Feysal > Corvuus > DRK reads on them in more detail...you know, with...um....[size="small"]reasons[/size].

*gets shot*

I'm going to take a shower, so I hope there aren't five more pages when I get back. And someone slap me if my next posts aren't on DRK and on Corvuus (EBWOPreview: although the latter doesn't look like a viable lynch anymore). It looks like Feysal is getting lynched regardless of whom I vote for, but I'd rather be thorough before making my decision.

[Jack]

You know as well as I do that nothing is happening to Andrius unless you back up your talk somewhere down the road, so I suppose it's not the biggest of deals that you do it now.

Caring personally about my scumreads would be a bad idea anyway.

Not sold on Feysal-scum, but we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime, and this is page motherfuckin 42 so lets get eugenic up in this bitch.

Unvote, Vote: Feysal

unvote

I'd rather see other peoples votes, and not keen on "well, it's page 42 so" lynch.

[Mina]

Okay, Jack is town.

Part one of the impasse rectified.

(Why am I posting instead of bathing, dammit?)

[Fishythefish]

Feysal as town gets to grips with the game right away, even when replacing in.

You thought drk was scum in ISO 24.

Scum god voting competing wagon.

unvote, vote:Feysal

Yes, I did. I still do.

I'm really not the scum god. Why do you think I am?

[Feysal]

Mina, SpyreX, and Feysal are kind of in limbo.

That is what happens when you fall several pages behind and don't know what is going on in the game. I've just read the past ten pages in one go, only to find I still did not understand what was going on, until DTMaster explained his gambit a few posts ago. Seems like much of the action in this game is taking place behind the scenes in the priesthoods other than mine.

So, I manage to catch up, just in time to find myself being wagoned basically for not doing enough to satisfy some people. Fine then. Time to make some replies.

Also, Feysal and Mina need to post moar. Once every couple of days is not enough to satiate my hunger for posts. Not to mention Feysal's entry in my notes is rather lacking in terms of his reads of the game. (The same can be said of Corvuus and Nobody Special as well, but whatever.)

What, three pages of posts a day are not enough for you? I've barely kept up, and have skipped posting on some days after falling behind, or to catch up in other games. I was busy with orchestra rehearsals this entire weekend, and today was the first day in a while I had time to read. You will get content from me, but I have only so much time to spend.

Did I stop being scum?

I never said you were scum. I said I might support your wagon once, as of #722 I'm inclined to believe you are town.

Feysal has gone through 30+ pages of this game, without ever posting a true case. He has 14 posts, and 1 page of an ISO. Looking at his posts, he comments here and there on cases, but let it be known that

Feysal has never made a case.

My answer to this: so what? Looking at the cases made by other people and deciding which one to support is a perfectly valid way to scumhunt. Of course if you have a better case you should share it, and I haven't had one.

My

modus operandi

on a first day is simple: sit back and observe. If I see a good case, I support it. If I see a bad case developing into a mislynch, I try to stop it. If I see something important or interesting others are missing, I point it out. That's all there is to it really, on later days after some flips you can start drawing connections and make use of the gathered information. So I've not done enough scumhunting for your taste yet? You have made cases of course, but are any of them on scum? If not, you have wasted your time. I find my effort is best used doing exactly what I have been doing: reading people. If I can't see scum cases, I look for town and work my way from there.

Furthermore, Feysal has been pushed quite a lot to give scum reads. Here are some of his posts in response:

I think Mina phrased it very well in her #932... I don't expect to be able to know who is scum on day one. My reads are what they are. If I don't have strong suspects when I'm asked, that is what I will say.

Here's the TL;DR version of this point. Feysal has promised multiple times that he will do ISO's and post cases. To this point in time, he has NOT.

The first time I promised anything was last Sunday. Yesterday I promised content today, and here I am.

Also, your defense against this point when it was raised earlier by Populartajo was WEAK at best. You gave some ridiculous meta excuse for it, citing games in which you "did not vote" or "barely ever voted". This does not excuse your actions.

I was called out by populartajo specifically for not voting. I answered that I don't use my vote frequently. I was asked for games that would show this, and I provided.

Feysal has a propensity to

MAKE LONG WINDED POSTS FOR NO REASON.

On its own, this wouldn't be a problem, but when people are asking you questions, looking for a direct answer from you, and you talk in a circle, eventually resulting in not answering the question, that's a problem.

Indeed, my posts are long. Also, I'd like you to point to a post of mine where I talked in a circle. I've elaborated on my answers, but I have not dodged any questions aimed at me.

The best example of this can be seen in POINT #1, where Feysal is repeatedly asked "Who's Scum?" and in all occurrences of this his response is to act like he either has a small scum gut read on someone, but he's "not sure" OR he "doesn't have good enough reads right now".

This is him dodging questions.

Would you prefer that I claimed to be sure when I was not?

14 posts is notably bad for someone who is currently, and has been for a while, under a microscope. It would appear to me that with the sudden rise in suspicion directed at DRK and Tajo, Feysal slipped back under the radar through Points 1 and 2 (Being Cautious Scum/Not answering questions) and then stopped being active. Operation LURK2VICTORY has been activated, and I'll be damned if I let it work.

Last week Equinox was gone from the thread until catching up on Thursday. The same happened to me this weekend, I fell behind. I'm caught up now.

I also notice that the two reasons this wagon on me got started from are missing from your case. It was some "slip" Equinox referred to which I've never understood, and the fact that I screwed up with my SpyreX vote. My timing was bad, posting right after populartajo happened to draw attention to me not voting.

So much for that. Now, some content:

TOWN
DTMaster
Equinox
Andrius
hitogoroshi
Mina
farside22
populartajo
Jack
Lady Lambdadelta <-- NULL
nopointinactingup
SpyreX
Benmage
DeathRowKitty
Corvuus
SCUM

That is my list of players, roughly ordered from towniest to scummiest. I'm fairly confident in the town reads up to Mina, and they start getting shakier there, with Jack as the last one, leaning town. LLD and nopoint are null reads, the rest scummy. I too have noticed how Benmage appears to be laying low, and over the past ten pages Corvuus was the player whose posts I liked least of all.

That is all you are going to get from me tonight. If you want me to elaborate on any of these reads, it will have to wait. I have a job interview in the morning, and I have already stayed up far too late to write this.

Preview edit:

three more pages

since I started writing this post? Whatever is in those will have to wait, if I'm still alive to respond then. Goodnight.

[Jack]

I don't want to lynch feysal today. We can do better.

[Feysal]

EBWOP: Just one more thing... I apparently forgot to vote.

Vote: DeathRowKitty

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Jack. Feysal is OBV scum.

For example, see that vote? Where were the facts and reasons backing that up? I didn't see any reasons why DRK was scum.... did you?

Also, Fishy voted DRK too... that's more fuel for me. Feysal must die.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I also notice that the two reasons this wagon on me got started from are missing from your case. It was some "slip" Equinox referred to which I've never understood, and the fact that I screwed up with my SpyreX vote. My timing was bad, posting right after populartajo happened to draw attention to me not voting.

Did you read it closely? I DID talk about the SpyreX vote...

[Jack]

I went back and checked some of drk's talk with farside, it IS pretty bad.

Reread some andy, he is still the scummiest.

Hito's iso 37 is scummy on review. If you've read enough of DTM to know that you don't understand the gambit, you've read enough to know that it is not solid information in any way. Feysal is not being lynched as a policy lynch so I don't like the "eat this policy lynch sometime" bit. This has been a GREAT 42 pages from my perspective but the scum must be hating it so his complaint is scummy.

I like both hito and andy over drk, have yet to look back at corvuss/tmh.

[Jack]

Corvuss is ok.

drk is probably ok too and doesn't mesh well with others.

I moved mina to town earlier I implied, but I will say so explicitly.

Benmage is much more probably scum as a result.

Andy and hito are first two scum.

4th scum is either a slot like nopoint's or someone who's managed to appear town so far.

Deadline can still be moved for the next two days, I think that would be a good idea.

[Fishythefish]

Unless I'm much mistaken, deadline has gone back as far as I push it.

[Equinox]

Unvote

L-4

I need to catch up

and

understand what the heck's going on. The speed of this thing is scary, and the last thing I want is for the day to end before I get my last word in.

Be back later this evening.

I have a job interview in the morning,

Good luck, sir!

[Jack]

Benmage, What is your opinion about dtm's tactic, and why were you so concerned about him saying you were in a game you weren't in?

*******

Benmage early posts "I can do a 180 and become a lead contributor" sounds like my optimism about my activity level when I start out a scum game thinking I'll be super active for once. Doesn't materialize.

ISO 15 is scummy.

The post of DTM's he quotes in 18 is a nice catch.

DRK vote comes out of nowhere.

His reasoning on TMH is very suspect because of [REDACTED]

I feel good about andrius--hito--benmage, with dgb as scum god.

I suppose I will put nopoint as the 4th.

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: Corvuus

[DrippingGoofball]

I feel good about andrius--hito--benmage, with dgb as scum god.

Good job, at least 75% of your scum list are townies. I can't vouch for benmage.

[Benmage]

and why were you so concerned about him saying you were in a game you weren't in?

Was that not the basis of everything?

[Jack]

and why were you so concerned about him saying you were in a game you weren't in?

Was that not the basis of everything?

No.

[Benmage]

Well I havent read. So I don't know.

[hitogoroshi]

Hito's iso 37 is scummy on review. If you've read enough of DTM to know that you don't understand the gambit, you've read enough to know that it is not solid information in any way.

I was refering to this bit of DTM's:

Finally my analysis turned up that Jack and DRK are town. DRK called my claim stupid. Had DRK been scum he would have been silent. I quote: DRK hoped that I wasn't the doctor and was lying since I was putting attention on him. Rather then exploit a doctor claim DRK did the opposite and distrusted that my claim was true. Jack claimed the same thing saying that my claims could be modified due to NS.

I think it's very likely DTM is telling the truth, and while I don't understand specifically what lies he told to who, this part still seems pretty solid; at least enough to give DRK the benefit of the doubt for a day. How is this not solid information in any way?

Feysal is not being lynched as a policy lynch so I don't like the "eat this policy lynch sometime" bit.

I think the things most people are calling scumtells from Feysal (specifically his extreme unwillingness to vote and bandwagon) are more newbie-playstyle-tells. That being said, his playstyle is inscrutable and anti-town. So, from my perspective, he's a policy lynch.

This has been a GREAT 42 pages from my perspective but the scum must be hating it so his complaint is scummy.

Oh come on now. I agree it's been a very good D1 but days have to end sometime and you know it as well as I do. If I had asked on you on page 40 if it was time to end the day you would've said yes.

I like both hito and andy over drk, have yet to look back at corvuss/tmh.

In regards to Corvuus: I think he's very likely town with NS as the scum god and very likely scum with Fishy as the scum god. I think NS is by far the most likely scum god at this stage, so I don't want a Corvuus lynch.

[farside22]

Trying to catch up. Very little time tonight to get it all.
From what I gather DTM and NS made my head hurt. I want to look at Feysal's meta later and DRK is still my top suspect.
Will have more in the morning.

[Jack]

I was refering to this bit of DTM's:

Finally my analysis turned up that Jack and DRK are town. DRK called my claim stupid. Had DRK been scum he would have been silent. I quote: DRK hoped that I wasn't the doctor and was lying since I was putting attention on him. Rather then exploit a doctor claim DRK did the opposite and distrusted that my claim was true. Jack claimed the same thing saying that my claims could be modified due to NS.

I think it's very likely DTM is telling the truth, and while I don't understand specifically what lies he told to who, this part still seems pretty solid; at least enough to give DRK the benefit of the doubt for a day. How is this not solid information in any way?

Very interesting, you tell me, considering you said:

I'm gonna need it explained in more detail why DRK is cleared off of DTM's whateverthehellthing, because I'm not parsing the nitty gritty of his SWEETS GAMBITS, but whatever, I'll trust that DTM knows what he's doing.

So, what wasn't solid information to you? Why did you need to trust, what couldn't you parse, and what did you need explained about "whateverthehellthing"? Since the only thing you say NOW that you were unsure of is what lies he told to who?

That bit from DTM is very clear, it's just his read on what drk would or wouldn't have done and is very sketchy in fact. No reason for scum-drk to not call the claim stupid.

Feysal is not being lynched as a policy lynch so I don't like the "eat this policy lynch sometime" bit.

I think the things most people are calling scumtells from Feysal (specifically his extreme unwillingness to vote and bandwagon) are more newbie-playstyle-tells. That being said, his playstyle is inscrutable and anti-town. So, from my perspective, he's a policy lynch.

...

This has been a GREAT 42 pages from my perspective but the scum must be hating it so his complaint is scummy.

Oh come on now. I agree it's been a very good D1 but days have to end sometime and you know it as well as I do. If I had asked on you on page 40 if it was time to end the day you would've said yes.

"It's been a very good day one..." + "we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime" =

Going from this:

Of Feysal/DRK, I prefer DRK. He's been very lurky except when called on, seems very passive and defensive, and his interactions with Tajo are strained to the breaking point.

To outright trying to lynch feysal over drk just because of dtm's read on him shows that you didn't really care about your drk "scum read", or about who gets lynched as long as it isn't a buddy.

[Equinox]

I've been juggling this thought around.

What do you guys think are the chances of Corvuus and Feysal being scum together?

If I am judging the wagoning situation correctly:

Spoiler: I'm lying to myself if I think this is in any way coherent

• We had a Zang wagon that went up to 3 votes and then died with DTMaster's entry into the game.
• This was followed by a populartajo wagon led by DrippingGoofball. This, too, went up to 3 votes (DrippingGoofball 432, Andrius 462, and hitogoroshi 501). As a side note, DrippingGoofball did vote populartajo before voting for Zang and then moving back once again.
• A competing wagon in DeathRowKitty was led by populartajo and ran up to 7 votes at its peak (populartajo 397, Jack 608, Fishythefish 634, CryMeARiver 635,
  Equinox 645
  , farside22 684, Benmage 782, and Andrius 799).
• Yet another competing wagon came up in Feysal led by DTMaster and ran up to 8 votes at its peak (DTMaster 751, Equinox 765,
  DrippingGoofball 863
  , Lady Lambdadelta 904, DrippingGoofball 969, SpyreX 971, Nobody Special 1025, Jack 1048, and hitogoroshi 1049).
• Interestingly, we've had quite a few people defect from the DeathRowKitty wagon: Equinox in 765 to Feysal, Fishythefish in 906 to Lady Lambdadelta (and back to DeathRowKitty in 1047), Jack in 947 to Corvuus (and later to Feysal), nopointinactingup in 951 to Lady Lambdadelta, and hitogoroshi in 1049 to Feysal.
• Where does the Corvuus wagon belong? At any rate, it's much more scatter-shot; I'm seeing votes from a few people, most of whom have since left for greener pastures. It looks like this wagon is about to start up again, though.

You're probably thinking, "Okay, so we've got at least that much information about people's behaviors towards the big Day 1 bandwagons. What does it all mean?"

• Corvuus and Feysal are probably not scum together. The most recent wagoning behavior makes the possibility that they are impossible or at least very difficult to believe.
  If either of these two are scum, Nobody Special is a town god.
  Considering how hard it was to get a Feysal wagon rolling up until very recently, the speed of it toward the tail end smells. Unfortunately, this isn't telling of Feysal's alignment.

Of course, there were other factors in play for the third point: People didn't understand it (e.g., DeathRowKitty, farside22), didn't agree with it (e.g., hitogoroshi), or were voting someone else (see spoiler). It wasn't until yesterday or thereabouts that DTMaster started pushing everybody off the DeathRowKitty wagon; even then, most of the folks who were on DeathRowKitty are still there, and the newer Feysal votes are coming from other wagons. I have no idea what that means yet, but I'm hoping it'll be useful down the road.

tl;dr - Equinox postulates a bit after some vote count analysis, but she doesn't know how to interpret. Bah.

Actually, I can say one thing: Anyone who thinks that Corvuus, DeathRowKitty,

and

Feysal are 3 of the scum together is drinking from the wrong pitcher of Kool-Aid.

---

Spoiler: Fun stuff, courtesy of a quote wall

I was considering letting DTmaster live another day since depending on his actual role/gambit, etc. it is determinable but hey, you guys want me to take a stand right? That and he himself has declared that if he is town, then whatever he is doing/planning will help out town regardless of whether he lives or not so i don't see the downside to checking his gambit and pursuing this... especially since DTmaster and DRK scum together is a possibility.

I keep staring and staring at this, and I still don't see how he went from this to voting DTMaster, even considering the fact that he's been suspicious of DTMaster for a while. The first sentence sounds like he would've let DTMaster live for another day (i.e., not lynch him) to get information from whatever DTMaster was doing, but because we pressured Corvuus into taking a more solid stance, he decided to vote DTMaster once and for all. Corvuus is denying himself the opportunity to learn whatever it is to be learned from DTMaster's gambit during the night phase. This can't be a town mindset.

I haven't read drk's posts since the omgus on farside, so I feel like this is probably best.

Benmage gets "outed as scum via gambit" and makes a fuss about disputing it by focusing on whether he was in a game?

Obviously because you LIED about not being in disgaeae.

Jack has been a naughty boy.

I've asked for your input on my reads for the last day or so... Why haven't you answered my recent QT posts? Hmm?

Good to know Nobody Special has problems expanding on his reads in his QuickTopics, too.

@Jack:

*twitch*

Lady Lambdadelta, SpyreX, Jack, and Nobody Special were so aroused by the glaring white vote that they missed this part of Mina's post.

Hmm...

Jack 1039: U BACKPEDALING
Mina 1040: Did you even read?
Jack 1042: LOLJK

LLD's points are factually accurate -

Feysal hasn't committed to anything much

, makes long posts, and doesn't make many posts, but I don't see that any of that makes him scum.

Town pick fights and then commit to reads they get as a result. Scum don't commit because they want to be fluid enough that they can slide onto wagons that are hot from the press.

Long posts are not scummy, no, but look at Feysal and then look at Mina. They are both verbose players, but one of them is much easier to understand than the other. Ask Mina a question and she'll answer; sure, it's probably a whole page long, but at least I know, in a nutshell, what she's saying. It's much harder with Feysal.

Now that I think about it, there's a confounding factor in there that would make the "unintelligibly long posts" point completely null. (Especially since Feysal's most recent posting cut to the chase.)

Hmm. Jack's 1048 gives me pause with regards to Feysal. OMG I don't want to read anymore, but this is one thing I do have to look up.

Not sold on Feysal-scum, but we'll probably need to eat this policy lynch sometime, and this is page motherfuckin 42 so lets get eugenic up in this bitch.

hitogoroshi, there's a competing wagon... one that you

just left

despite having a read. What are you doing?

For example, see that vote? Where were the facts and reasons backing that up? I didn't see any reasons why DRK was scum.... did you?

• That is all you are going to get from me tonight. If you want me to elaborate on any of these reads, it will have to wait. I have a job interview in the morning, and I have already stayed up far too late to write this.

Hmm...

---

I know you people don't read, so have a summary:

Points docked from hitogoroshi.
Points docked from Jack.
Points docked from Lady Lambdadelta.
Points given to DTMaster.
Points given to Feysal.
Points given to Mina.

Equinox's to-read list: Andrius, Feysal^M, Jack (leftover from the last to-do list), Lady Lambdadelta, SpyreX
Questionable individuals: Corvuus, hitogoroshi, Jack

Here's the kick: I am considering a Corvuus wagon. Verdict coming soon.